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On April 18 2014 07:01 Minus` wrote:'lo again TLnet. So, for those who follow this thread but don't read the 'bow forums, I wrote a great big guide to StarBow. Link: Starbow Primer for SC2 Players. Why? Here's the reasoning I gave over there: Show nested quote +
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To start, it is absolutely the case that I am not at all qualified to be writing guides about StarBow; I was dismissive of it in 2012 (I think?) and holding out hope for SC2 to improve, and only learned the mod was still around/alive by accident last week. That is to say, I was on TLnet getting mca64Launcher set up to fix the annual BW itch and I spotted the Starbow Beta thread in the sidebar.
Still, intrigued, I watched a few VODs on Twitch, and may have even caught a stream live, so I started searching for concise information about StarBow's differences from SC2 and BW -- since, to me, it seemed like a weird-but-interesting hybrid of both. The Brood War "feel" was obvious, of course -- but there were enough little things changed that I found it frustrating (because OCD or something). I didn't find exactly what I wanted, though -- I didn't find a list to tell me exactly what was changed and how.
At least, I didn't find one quickly. I didn't look very hard, admittedly, because I seek out excuses to write.
...So I wrote. And holy hell if it didn't turn out to be a freaking lot of writing.
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Let me know what you think.
Should help out for those times when you're trying to interest a friend who used to play SC2 but didn't like the feel of it enough to stay.
Good guide, but one thing is very misunderstood (by alot of players actually).
"Expand often! Starbow's economy rewards spreading your workers across multiple expansions, as oversaturating workers results in significantly diminishing returns."
Actually, that's too unnuanced. In Sc2 you don't get rewarded for 2+ workers per mineral paths.You do that in Starbow.
The effect is that the mobile race should expand ofter and the less mobile race expand less often (the latter is something almost everyone seems to overlook).
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On April 18 2014 09:16 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2014 07:01 Minus` wrote:'lo again TLnet. So, for those who follow this thread but don't read the 'bow forums, I wrote a great big guide to StarBow. Link: Starbow Primer for SC2 Players. Why? Here's the reasoning I gave over there:
...
To start, it is absolutely the case that I am not at all qualified to be writing guides about StarBow; I was dismissive of it in 2012 (I think?) and holding out hope for SC2 to improve, and only learned the mod was still around/alive by accident last week. That is to say, I was on TLnet getting mca64Launcher set up to fix the annual BW itch and I spotted the Starbow Beta thread in the sidebar.
Still, intrigued, I watched a few VODs on Twitch, and may have even caught a stream live, so I started searching for concise information about StarBow's differences from SC2 and BW -- since, to me, it seemed like a weird-but-interesting hybrid of both. The Brood War "feel" was obvious, of course -- but there were enough little things changed that I found it frustrating (because OCD or something). I didn't find exactly what I wanted, though -- I didn't find a list to tell me exactly what was changed and how.
At least, I didn't find one quickly. I didn't look very hard, admittedly, because I seek out excuses to write.
...So I wrote. And holy hell if it didn't turn out to be a freaking lot of writing.
...
Let me know what you think.
Should help out for those times when you're trying to interest a friend who used to play SC2 but didn't like the feel of it enough to stay. Good guide, but one thing is very misunderstood (by alot of players actually). "Expand often! Starbow's economy rewards spreading your workers across multiple expansions, as oversaturating workers results in significantly diminishing returns." Actually, that's too unnuanced. In Sc2 you don't get rewarded for 2+ workers per mineral paths.You do that in Starbow. The effect is that the mobile race should expand ofter and the less mobile race expand less often (the latter is something almost everyone seems to overlook).
Can you elaborate on this a bit? I commented at the 'bow forums that I hadn't gotten a great understanding of the differences in economy, and I'm terrible with numbers, but I'd understood that it was always more productive (supply-wise) to have one worker per patch at each base.
As I'd understood it (from Xiphias's video, though I can't re-watch right now), in StarBow, 2 workers per patch at one base will be about 30% 22% less efficient than 1 worker per patch at two bases. In contrast, in SC2, having 2 workers per patch (Liquipedia) is equally efficient as spreading them out. There's quite a lot of incentive to expand with fewer workers, in StarBow.
Still, regarding saturation, complete saturation for bases in StarBow is reached at about 28 workers (for 8 mineral patches), vs 24 in SC2, so that kind of makes sense. It could hardly be considered a reward, though -- just slightly less punitive, because max saturation is about half a worker per patch higher in StarBow.
Have I missed something there...? Not that it would be surprising, I'm just unsure.
EDIT: 30%->22%
EDIT #2:
EDIT #3: Removed edit #2 because I'm obviously confused.
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So let's say you have 3 workers per mineral path in Starbow. 1st worker gives 100%, second worker = 65%, 3rd worker = 25% (can't remember if the numbers are precisely like that, but this isn't as important).
;mining per mineral path = 1 + 0.65+0.25 = 1.9
Assume you are mining on 2 bases, each with 8 mineral patches. So total mining = 1.9 * 8 * 2 = 30.4
Let's assume Sc2 is this: 1st worker = 100%. 2nd worker = 100%. 3rd worker = 5%.
Thus, Sc2 income per mineral path = 1 + 1 + 0.05 = 2.05
Total mining in Sc2 = 16 * 2.05 = 32.8
So let's say you take a 3rd in Starbow, this allows you to change your saturation. Before you had 48 workers mining minerals over 2 bases. Now you have 48 workers ming over 3 bases.
New total income = 8 * 3 * 1 + 8 * 3 *0.65 = 39.6. That's an increase of 30%
In sc2, however, the new income after taking a 3rd is this:
16* 3 = 48. That's an increase of 46%.
So its easy to see here that the economic benefit of taking a 3rd with the Sc2 econ is much higher in this situation. This occurs because in Sc2 its all about making sure that you don't have any workers on your 3rd mineral paths. So each time there is a chance of that happening, you want to expand. In Starbow, the penalty for having 3 workers per mineral path is actually much less.
On the other hand, in Starbow/BW there is a benefit (unlike in Sc2) for taking alot alot of bases so you never have more than 1 worker per mineral path. However, this isn't realistic for the immobile race. Only the mobile race can do that, so it effectively means that the immobile race takes bases slower and the mobile race takes bases faster
This is obviously a totally overlooked concept by the community, and the lack of understanding of this concept also explains why all types of FRB variations have failed and only resulted in worse types of gameplay.
From a gameplay perspective, this means that the immobile race can invest less into defensive units (since they only need to protect 2/3 bases compared to 3/4 bases in Sc2) and more into harassoriented units. Further, they can harass more effectively in SC2 as the mobile race is spread over a lot more bases.
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King of the HiIll tournament on testmap.
Develop the game and have fun at the same time!
Goto Starbow chat channel on EU to play
Stream: http://www.twitch.tv/sc2_starbow
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Patch for 20th of April
Bugs (fixed a new days ago)
- Lurkers now deal dmg to lurkers.
- Spidermine now deal dmg to burrowed lurkers
- Lurkers now cannot fire under the disruption web.
Protoss:
- Stalker cost increased to 100/50.
- Hallucination on High Templar is now changed to the Starcraft 2 version of hallucination. It costs 100 energy (no matter which unit you hallucinate) and does not need a research.
- Phase missile range changed from 8 to 6 and a cast delay has been added (similar to stasis).
- Corsair splash now deals 100% dmg in all it's radius. (It now actually deals very well with mutalisks if you micro well. You still need a decent number of corsairs though.)
Zerg:
- Ensnare now reduces attack and movement speed by 50 % (used to be 30%).
- Abduct replaced by "Parasitic Domination". Unit marked by the spell will be given permanently under Zerg control after 15 sec. Range 6. Costs 150 energy. Parasitic Domination must be upgraded at the Viper's nest and has the same cost and upgrade time as the Abduct upgrade had.
- Lurker Spike weapon speed increased from 0.125 to 0.075 and attack speed decreased from 2.3 to 2.4. (They now hit running units who are not too fast. Stimmed marines and speelots can avoid lurker spikes if the move perpendicular to the spikes at the far end of the lurker range.)
Terran:
- Reaper bombs are now attackable and have 10 hp. (They can only be attacked if targeted.)
- Decrease detonation time for reaper bombs to 4 seconds
- Scan 50 energy, engineering bay requirement removed.
- Factory requirement on Ghost Academy and Nukes removed
- Ghost reworked - cost: 100/75, movement speed 2.15. Damage and hit points remains the same.
- Nuke cost reduced to 50/50.
- Nuke's duration before impact decreased ("Effect: Intial Delay" changed to 2.0)
- Nuke's splash damage reduced to 100 from radius 0 - 4.5, 75 dmg from 4.5 to 6. 150 dmg vs buildings.
- Seeker drone removed
- Marauder removed.
- Cost of reactor increased to 100/100
Notes
- We feel quite confident in all of these changes except for the new nuke ability for the Ghost. There is no way we could have extensively tested every scenario with this change to release a 100% certain balanced version. This is why we beg you to try and exploit this as much as possible, but also remember to try and counter these exploitation as well. We are ready to scrap this nuke at any point if proven to lead to boring game-play / just being too strong. This is still Beta and we can still make changes like this. The community is big enough to test it, but not so big that it can't handle larger changes.
- Protoss: Since stalkers got a cost nerf we looked at corsairs to make sure it would be a solid answer to mutalisks. We did some testing and quickly came to the conclusion that current corsairs simply are horrible vs mutailsk. This is why we changed it so not it does all of its damage in the splash area. It still requiters micro and care to keep alive in small numbers and also in larger numbers to some extend. Mutalisk vs corsairs is still very micro intensive and will reward the best micro heavily, but now the corsairs actually stand a chance. The stalker nerf might not be enough. We did not change the damage like it was on the testmap. They still do 100 % damage vs protoss shields.
- New Viper spell: This is also a rather big change. Hopefully it helps zerg to deal with single high priority targets in a more interesting way. There are two things to conciser: 1. The Viper should be useful even without the army behind him. 2. The opponent needs to make a choice as well. With this ability you can try to sneak in with the Viper(s) from odd angles before battle since it takes 15 seconds before the unit is converted. It has shorter range so this can be countered by good position from the opposing player. Also, during these 15 seconds the opposing player needs to decide if he wants to kill the unit / try to attack with it (get as much out as possible). If it is a spellcaster, you probably want to use all the energy and then kill it before it converts to the zergy side of the swarm.
- About reactor change. Why even make a reactor when it costs so much? Remember that with a reactor the overcharge from the Orbital Command boosts the production of both units. So it basically gives you twice overcharge capacity. This cannot be done by simply building a new barracks / factory.
Future work
- Reaver bug is still here (still fires blank sometimes). If you want to help sort this bug out, try to check if there are certain situations it seems to happen more. (E.g. Right after it has been produced? If target moves too far away? etc)
- Zerg inject that was in the testmap (one extra larvae instead of speeding up larvae) may be considered more later.
- Storm with smartcast might still be something we want to change. One suggestion is lower the range.
- Probably a ton more which I am forgetting and I'll add later.
Again, huge thanks to decemberscalm for all the work in the editor
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On April 20 2014 23:17 Xiphias wrote:Patch for 20th of April
Actually jumped out of bed. Easter is a real holiday again.
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On April 20 2014 23:17 Xiphias wrote:
[*] Marauder removed.
I cried a little
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On April 21 2014 04:48 HeyImFinn wrote:I cried a little
Artosis is crying too. Tears of joy.
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Corsairs still have reduced damage in their Splash radius.
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[B]On April 20 2014 23:17 Xiphias wrote:
[*] Factory requirement on Ghost Academy and Nukes removed
[*] Nuke cost reduced to 50/50.
I hope this makes nuke play an actual strategy rather than a gimmick.
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On April 21 2014 05:50 Crisium wrote:
Corsairs still have reduced damage in their Splash radius.
Fixed.
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Also, there is the Jade Vs Impact today on Shoutcraft. Starts at 11 pm CEST.
Good day for Starbow :D
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You sure of this?
I always thought and were told starbow third is around 0,23,
And sc2 around 0,1 only
I think this is wrong. How on earth can sc2 third worker be 0,4, its to much
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Call me crazy, but what do yall think the implications would be if a reactor halved the time it takes to create a unit instead of allowing double production?
Good base for increased skill cap or too much macromanagement?
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On April 22 2014 05:18 Foxxan wrote:You sure of this? I always thought and were told starbow third is around 0,23, And sc2 around 0,1 only I think this is wrong. How on earth can sc2 third worker be 0,4, its to much
I remember one guy in early Sc2 said it was 0.03. Then XIphias later on argued it was 0.1. But I guess Solid's source is pretty credible.
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On April 22 2014 05:54 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2014 05:18 Foxxan wrote:You sure of this? I always thought and were told starbow third is around 0,23, And sc2 around 0,1 only I think this is wrong. How on earth can sc2 third worker be 0,4, its to much I remember one guy in early Sc2 said it was 0.03. Then XIphias later on argued it was 0.1. But I guess Solid's source is pretty credible.
I just have this feeling that people think its 0,2 but in reality it may be 0,4.
This would mean terran are in a better shape probably if they build more workers on 1base and 2base and go agressive/pressure there in sc2.
Like against zerg always 3CC cuz otherwise they get behind in economy, maybe 2CC is enough but make more workers..
maybe iam dreaming
EDIT: if its true its fantastic really. The starbow that is.
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EPT
