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Starbow - Page 284

Forum Index > SC2 General
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rebuffering
Profile Joined December 2010
Canada2436 Posts
April 08 2014 05:14 GMT
#5661
And we can all agree that SC is better regardless Haha.
http://www.twitch.tv/rebufferingg
trias_e
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States520 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-04-08 06:22:26
April 08 2014 06:21 GMT
#5662
I think there is one major difference between LoL/Dota and SC2: Mechanics. Playing SC2 is just far more difficult. Yes, it takes a ton of knowledge to play LoL/DoTA well at all, but the actual act of playing SC2 is far more stressful. It's much easier for a noob to hop into LoL and gradually get better at the game just through knowledge accumulation and experience. I think people on this site, who have been playing RTS's for years and years, don't grasp just how ridiculously hard it is for noobs. LoL/DoTA mechanically is just so much more approachable*. I have to admit that even as someone who has played SC2 since beta (although I've never been better than diamond), even trying to start playing starbow is intimidating as fuck. I still enjoying watching it because I enjoy watching RTS games, but it's never the same without actually playing the game first.

*That said, I think that if SC2 multiplayer had been free to play from the start, it would be the dominant e-sport right now and would be pulling in LoL numbers. The thing about SC2 is that it is a perfect game to watch once you've played seriously on the ladder and you understand the fundamentals. Even if it is too stressful/challenging to play on a constant basis. Unfortunately, LoL took the new generation of kids with no wallets and converted them to it first. The age bracket of 13-18 back in 2010ish was ridiculously skewed towards LoL because of that, which of course has massive impact as that bracket grows up and can spend money. LoL had the right model at the right time. It's too bad for RTS fans. Total de-rail, sorry.
-Archangel-
Profile Joined May 2010
Croatia7457 Posts
April 08 2014 10:14 GMT
#5663
On April 08 2014 13:34 Beef Noodles wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 08 2014 13:18 GGzerG wrote:
On April 07 2014 06:34 Xiphos wrote:
LoL + DotA2 are WAY more complicated knowledge-wise than BOTH SCs
.


What ? Have you ever tried to play BroodWar at a relatively high level at all?

It's pretty useless to argue. Everyone will say the game they know best requires more knowledge because they know more about it.

But we are talking about new players, so lets look at what new players focus on:

SC: new players have to memorize all the buildings, units, what the units do, hotkeys, map layouts, and let's throw in a few build orders in there as well. This is a simplified version of SC no doubt, but this is still more than I except a new player to memorize. In total, lets estimate everything at ~75 buildings for all three races, 50 units total, 30 hotkeys, 10 maps in a current map pool, an ~40 important steps in a really we thought out build order, and lets say they learn 3 build orders for a total of 120 steps. All in all this is about 285 things for a new player to remember.

Now what does a new league player need to memorize? Over 100 champions, each have 4 moves and 1 passive skill (with a few champions actually having 7 moves and 1 passive skill), 1 map that most people play (Summoner's Rift), well over 100 items, and 5 main roles to play (top, mid, jungler, support, and attack damage carry). Let PRETEND that you can play every champion in every role and roles don't matter. Let's also say that items and item builds don't matter, buffs don't matter, etc etc. A new player still has to remember all of the champions and their move sets. If they don't know this, a champion could destroy them with a crazy move at anytime. So ignoring tons of other aspects of League of Legends, new players still have to memorize WELL over 500 new things, probably closer to 600 new things. This is over double Starcraft's number of "things."

Starcraft, in my opinion, is a much harder game and requires more strategy. But does not have nearly the knowledge barrier that LoL does.

If we are talking about new players your list of LoL is not correct. New players don't need to know stuff about all heroes. They will play like 5 to 10 of them and they have ingame guides for equipment, the game basically tells them what to buy to be useful. Then they will need to learn the most dangerous moves their enemies can do so they know how to handle it.

In Sc2, new player will need to try all 3 factions where each plays fairly different and learn their hotkeys. As a result they will need to know how to play 9 different matchups, or at least know something about them.

Once players of both games get higher then LoL knowledge is bigger than sc2, where sc2 needs more mechanical skill to be better.
Deleted User 97295
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
1137 Posts
April 08 2014 11:45 GMT
#5664
--- Nuked ---
Deleted User 97295
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
1137 Posts
April 08 2014 11:46 GMT
#5665
--- Nuked ---
Zaphod Beeblebrox
Profile Joined December 2010
Denmark697 Posts
April 08 2014 12:08 GMT
#5666
Wrong - there is nothing inherently limiting about mechanical complexety. The thing League and Dota has for the noobs is ease of access, and more importantly an addictive reward system.

LoL is easy to pick up and learn a few things before playing. The fact that the game is fairly relaxed at lower levels, and in bot games. This relaxed pace, combined with regular rewards (Wins or even just kills), even at the lowest level, is exactly what triggers addictive behaviors in humans.

Remove the ease of acces, and you can still have an addictive game that is just harder to get into (SC2). Make the rewards more scarce, and you have a lot harder time to keep people hooked (BW, and StarBow)

Both BW and StarBow suffers from the fact that you have to lose something like 20-100 games as a noob before getting the reward. The lack of a casual playerbase is not prohibitive for people to pick up and play the game, but it kills the fun for these players fast, because there are too few bad players for them to play against, and have fun with regular wins against.
Go try StarBow on the Arcade. TL thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=440661
Beef Noodles
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States937 Posts
April 08 2014 16:36 GMT
#5667
On April 08 2014 19:14 -Archangel- wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 08 2014 13:34 Beef Noodles wrote:
On April 08 2014 13:18 GGzerG wrote:
On April 07 2014 06:34 Xiphos wrote:
LoL + DotA2 are WAY more complicated knowledge-wise than BOTH SCs
.


What ? Have you ever tried to play BroodWar at a relatively high level at all?

It's pretty useless to argue. Everyone will say the game they know best requires more knowledge because they know more about it.

But we are talking about new players, so lets look at what new players focus on:

SC: new players have to memorize all the buildings, units, what the units do, hotkeys, map layouts, and let's throw in a few build orders in there as well. This is a simplified version of SC no doubt, but this is still more than I except a new player to memorize. In total, lets estimate everything at ~75 buildings for all three races, 50 units total, 30 hotkeys, 10 maps in a current map pool, an ~40 important steps in a really we thought out build order, and lets say they learn 3 build orders for a total of 120 steps. All in all this is about 285 things for a new player to remember.

Now what does a new league player need to memorize? Over 100 champions, each have 4 moves and 1 passive skill (with a few champions actually having 7 moves and 1 passive skill), 1 map that most people play (Summoner's Rift), well over 100 items, and 5 main roles to play (top, mid, jungler, support, and attack damage carry). Let PRETEND that you can play every champion in every role and roles don't matter. Let's also say that items and item builds don't matter, buffs don't matter, etc etc. A new player still has to remember all of the champions and their move sets. If they don't know this, a champion could destroy them with a crazy move at anytime. So ignoring tons of other aspects of League of Legends, new players still have to memorize WELL over 500 new things, probably closer to 600 new things. This is over double Starcraft's number of "things."

Starcraft, in my opinion, is a much harder game and requires more strategy. But does not have nearly the knowledge barrier that LoL does.

If we are talking about new players your list of LoL is not correct. New players don't need to know stuff about all heroes. They will play like 5 to 10 of them and they have ingame guides for equipment, the game basically tells them what to buy to be useful. Then they will need to learn the most dangerous moves their enemies can do so they know how to handle it.

In Sc2, new player will need to try all 3 factions where each plays fairly different and learn their hotkeys. As a result they will need to know how to play 9 different matchups, or at least know something about them.

Once players of both games get higher then LoL knowledge is bigger than sc2, where sc2 needs more mechanical skill to be better.

I got to Masters without playing Terran or Protoss even a single time. I've since played them, but you only need to play one race and learn three matchups.
Xiphias
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Norway2223 Posts
April 08 2014 17:09 GMT
#5668
New cast is up! Jade Vs Osiris:

aka KanBan85. Working on Starbow.
The_Red_Viper
Profile Blog Joined August 2013
19533 Posts
April 08 2014 17:12 GMT
#5669
On April 09 2014 01:36 Beef Noodles wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 08 2014 19:14 -Archangel- wrote:
On April 08 2014 13:34 Beef Noodles wrote:
On April 08 2014 13:18 GGzerG wrote:
On April 07 2014 06:34 Xiphos wrote:
LoL + DotA2 are WAY more complicated knowledge-wise than BOTH SCs
.


What ? Have you ever tried to play BroodWar at a relatively high level at all?

It's pretty useless to argue. Everyone will say the game they know best requires more knowledge because they know more about it.

But we are talking about new players, so lets look at what new players focus on:

SC: new players have to memorize all the buildings, units, what the units do, hotkeys, map layouts, and let's throw in a few build orders in there as well. This is a simplified version of SC no doubt, but this is still more than I except a new player to memorize. In total, lets estimate everything at ~75 buildings for all three races, 50 units total, 30 hotkeys, 10 maps in a current map pool, an ~40 important steps in a really we thought out build order, and lets say they learn 3 build orders for a total of 120 steps. All in all this is about 285 things for a new player to remember.

Now what does a new league player need to memorize? Over 100 champions, each have 4 moves and 1 passive skill (with a few champions actually having 7 moves and 1 passive skill), 1 map that most people play (Summoner's Rift), well over 100 items, and 5 main roles to play (top, mid, jungler, support, and attack damage carry). Let PRETEND that you can play every champion in every role and roles don't matter. Let's also say that items and item builds don't matter, buffs don't matter, etc etc. A new player still has to remember all of the champions and their move sets. If they don't know this, a champion could destroy them with a crazy move at anytime. So ignoring tons of other aspects of League of Legends, new players still have to memorize WELL over 500 new things, probably closer to 600 new things. This is over double Starcraft's number of "things."

Starcraft, in my opinion, is a much harder game and requires more strategy. But does not have nearly the knowledge barrier that LoL does.

If we are talking about new players your list of LoL is not correct. New players don't need to know stuff about all heroes. They will play like 5 to 10 of them and they have ingame guides for equipment, the game basically tells them what to buy to be useful. Then they will need to learn the most dangerous moves their enemies can do so they know how to handle it.

In Sc2, new player will need to try all 3 factions where each plays fairly different and learn their hotkeys. As a result they will need to know how to play 9 different matchups, or at least know something about them.

Once players of both games get higher then LoL knowledge is bigger than sc2, where sc2 needs more mechanical skill to be better.

I got to Masters without playing Terran or Protoss even a single time. I've since played them, but you only need to play one race and learn three matchups.

You don't need to know every single skill in league either, you both exaggerate a lot
IU | Sohyang || There is no God and we are his prophets | For if ‘Thou mayest’—it is also true that ‘Thou mayest not.” | Ignorance is the parent of fear |
404AlphaSquad
Profile Joined October 2011
839 Posts
April 08 2014 17:58 GMT
#5670
On April 09 2014 02:09 Xiphias wrote:
New cast is up! Jade Vs Osiris:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxLzuHl32XU

what an anticlimatic ending
aka Kalevi
Crisium
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States1618 Posts
April 08 2014 23:14 GMT
#5671
Good game, if only because Scouts actually killed a few units.

As a newer player, I am idling in chat right now looking for casual games. Come play, if you are merciful or also newish.
Broodwar and Stork forever! List of BW players with most Ro16, Ro8: http://tinyurl.com/BWRo16-Ro8
Xiphias
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Norway2223 Posts
April 10 2014 06:00 GMT
#5672
On April 09 2014 08:14 Crisium wrote:
Good game, if only because Scouts actually killed a few units.

As a newer player, I am idling in chat right now looking for casual games. Come play, if you are merciful or also newish.


A tad late but, there is usually more players in the chat within the Eros ladder client, you can ask for un-ranked games there as well if you just want to play casually.

Get the client here: http://starbowmod.com/
aka KanBan85. Working on Starbow.
HeyImFinn
Profile Joined September 2011
United States250 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-04-10 06:38:01
April 10 2014 06:15 GMT
#5673
Is it just me, or were the WoL beta maps really not that bad for Starbow?

EDIT: Also, have you guys considered recruiting dedicated map makers?
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)STYLE START SBENU( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Xiphias
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Norway2223 Posts
April 10 2014 07:02 GMT
#5674
I made a lot of my older casts available again, if you are curious to see what Starbow looked like a lot of patches ago:

http://www.youtube.com/user/Isaksen85/search?query=vintage
aka KanBan85. Working on Starbow.
-Archangel-
Profile Joined May 2010
Croatia7457 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-04-10 12:59:44
April 10 2014 12:59 GMT
#5675
I hope for next tournament players show up so we don't get so many byes.
Deleted User 97295
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
1137 Posts
April 10 2014 18:58 GMT
#5676
--- Nuked ---
Capresis
Profile Joined September 2008
United States518 Posts
April 10 2014 22:07 GMT
#5677
Starts now! http://www.twitch.tv/sc2_starbow
-Archangel-
Profile Joined May 2010
Croatia7457 Posts
April 11 2014 12:10 GMT
#5678
heh, this tournament was way too late for me, I just watched 10 minutes of it. Maybe to get more viewers from EU you could have it on Friday, at least then we don't work on Saturday and can stay longer to watch it.
Xiphias
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Norway2223 Posts
April 11 2014 18:42 GMT
#5679
It's Friday night!

Let's get on the Starbow ladder!

Seriously, we have 1750 registered Eros client accounts and 23 people are online. Come on!
aka KanBan85. Working on Starbow.
Ej_
Profile Blog Joined January 2013
47656 Posts
April 11 2014 18:44 GMT
#5680
MMA is playing, sorry
"Technically the dictionary has zero authority on the meaning or words" - Rodya
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