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On June 07 2014 02:47 HaruRH wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2014 02:44 Amiko wrote:
That's fine. Let's talk after the game since I'll know your helpful comments are genuine. >.> you're really bent on killing off both fuba and palmar. But I still think that mderg still have the remote chance of being mafia. We should really let palmar live for one more day, lynch fuba who is still unwilling to contribute until now and make mderg and palmar try to convince the remaining of us who is more scummy should it still go on. The order doesn't matter, but having palmar who is willing to talk is better than fuba, who is just hiding.
Don't you think there will be more pressure on fuba to talk tomorrow?
When everyone who is left seems to want to vote him?
When Palmar isn't here to be a focus?
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On June 07 2014 02:51 Amiko wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2014 02:47 HaruRH wrote:On June 07 2014 02:44 Amiko wrote:
That's fine. Let's talk after the game since I'll know your helpful comments are genuine. >.> you're really bent on killing off both fuba and palmar. But I still think that mderg still have the remote chance of being mafia. We should really let palmar live for one more day, lynch fuba who is still unwilling to contribute until now and make mderg and palmar try to convince the remaining of us who is more scummy should it still go on. The order doesn't matter, but having palmar who is willing to talk is better than fuba, who is just hiding. Don't you think there will be more pressure on fuba to talk tomorrow? When everyone who is left seems to want to vote him? When Palmar isn't here to be a focus?
No. Fuba doesn't feel like someone who will be pressured even with votes, given his previous record of nearly ignoring everyone who voted for him, not asking why they did so.
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What do you want Fuba to talk about or answer?
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On June 07 2014 02:51 Amiko wrote:
When everyone who is left seems to want to vote him?
This is the problem I want us all to overcome. After killing off palmar, everyone will afk and sheep a fuba vote. I can and will guarantee this will happen. If mderg is the mafia, he gets a free win.
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On June 06 2014 12:57 Amiko wrote:So for fuba/palmar/mderg, regardless of their alignment these players should understand that their team will 100% win if the other two players are lynched. So, for Palmar I think we talked through your motivations and I wasn’t really convinced, but maybe if you raise some points on mderg and fuba it’ll change my mind. Okay, so let's go through fuba's points on mderg- Fuba raises the point that mderg doesn’t actively push people on d1 and really just hard-defends jabber – when Chrom raises this point, Chrom dies the next day I think there is some legitimacy to the first part of this point, though mderg does raise some concerns on M_Z by the end of the day. But, rereading Chrom’s post, I feel that he is indicating more of a town-lean on mderg so I’m not sure the second part of the point pans out. Chrom’s post: + Show Spoiler + On May 30 2014 06:35 Chromatically wrote:mderg just feels really genuine to me. I think it would be easy for scum to randomly throw out a scumread to push when I started pressuring him, but mderg didn't back down, which is a much townier position. Scum would be more aware of how strange it looks that they're not pushing a read and would invent one to push. Show nested quote +On May 28 2014 23:43 mderg wrote:On May 28 2014 23:23 Chromatically wrote:
mderg, what would you say your objective is for today? What outcome would you be most happy with?? Well, my objective is to lynch scum but I don´t think that´s what you want to hear. It´s difficult to find a proper answer to that question because it´s not like I have someone I really want to lynch. I still don´t want jabber to be lynched. The outcome I would be most happy with would be lynching someone who is not jabber and scum. But since my defense for jabber didn´t seem to convince people I don´t think someone else will be lynched. I´d also be happy, if jabber flipped scum. That would make me wrong but it would put us in a good position. Genuine doesn't necessarily mean town though (I'm very wary of calling mderg town for that one post Palmar liked, I think that could easily come from scum). But, I think his posts show a townie thought process about honestly wanting to defend jabber. 2) Regarding mderg’s move to slOosh from M_ZTo me, I think mderg is town not only because his vote ended the day on slOosh (though that is a good sign) but also because of the timing of his switch. For context of when mderg switches to slOosh, check this - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=38#741 – Koshi did a vote count and mderg is the next post. So, when mderg switches, the votes are like this: Show nested quote +On May 31 2014 20:55 Koshi wrote:
Meapak_Ziphh (3) - HaruRH, Palmar, mderg, SlOosh,
slOosh(4) – Amiko, Alakaslam, HaruRH, sqrtofneg1
Sqrtofneg1(1) - fuba
Not voting (3) : – 27ninjabunnies, Meapak_Ziphh, gobbledydook
What is significant to me about this vote count is the split: sloosh at 4, M_Z at 3. I feel like at this point, the votes were split such that I don’t feel mderg would feel he has to vote for a mafia teammate. I think he could have stayed on M_Z without much suspicion if he really wanted to, or could have even waited until a few more people voted to decide whether to change his mind. I just feel like the changed vote on mderg feels really inconsistent with scum play due to its timing, as well as its result. (Still going through thread)
1) Fair enough. I was going off of mderg's filter, where chrom seemed really suspicious of him. Looking at the timestamps, chrom posted his updated reads 4 hours before the N1 deadline, so his previous suspicions might have still been on scum's mind when they sent in the kill. Regardless, my point may be moot on this count simply because it looks like chrom's reads list has significant suspicion of both sloosh and gobble, and he appeared pretty townie D1, so his death didn't need to relate to mderg at all. A more thorough filter dive would be needed to tell if chrom's suspicions of sloosh and gobble were as obvious prior to his reads list, but I don't have the time at the moment :S
In any case, I'd like to draw attention to the fact that mderg asks me for my thoughts on gobble and MZ at some point D1. I respond with my thoughts on gobble (my MZ thoughts to come later, as I had limited time), to which he responds that he disagrees with anything I say that might make gobble scum. He then writes a case on MZ being scum. SlOosh also asks me for my MZ read at some point. It makes me feel like scum wanted me to set up a case on MZ for them to sheep onto. To simplify: Mderg asks me for my thoughts on scum and town, I give my thoughts on scum, he says those thoughts don't indicate scum, he makes a case on town. It seems odd to ask for my thoughts on gobble for no reason, only to make a case on MZ. It's a weird progression, particularly with sloosh also wanting my input on MZ. Maybe I'm reading too much into it, idunno.
2) Not entirely accurate. I'd have to check bunnies' filter again, but it felt like her vote was promised to sloosh, since she said she had promised a case on him, but ran out of time. And MZ was clearly going to vote for sloosh. Gobble's vote, presumably, would have been going to MZ. All of the votes were already dedicated to someone, and it would have left:
Meapak_Ziphh (4) - HaruRH, Palmar, mderg, SlOosh, gobbledydook
slOosh(6) – Amiko, Alakaslam, HaruRH, sqrtofneg1, 27ninjabunnies, Meapak_Ziphh
Sqrtofneg1(1) - fuba
Not voting (0) : – none
At this point, there's no winning for scum. While the votes aren't placed, we can generally guess where they're going to fall. And scum would have been watching this carefully the entire time. Even removing bunnies' vote, in case I'm incorrect, and adding my vote if I went for MZ instead, sloosh is still getting lynched over MZ, and that's with the entire scumteam on that wagon. This is actually the perfect time for him to switch over, because it still looks like the lynch is up in the air, when it's pretty much decided already. They don't want the entire scumteam on one wagon, it gains towncred to switch wagons "early", and the sloosh lynch looks inevitable. Scum have more information, and this looks like a situation where they used it pretty well to their advantage.
Huh, palmar's kinda in the same boat as mderg in this situation, except he doesn't switch. My instinct tells me this is evidence of palmar being more likely town than mderg. Dunno though, would have to give that a bit more thought than I have time for atm.
I think there are more questions for me, but I just realized that my appointment is in 3 minutes, so I've really gotta go. I'll be back in an hour-ish.
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On June 06 2014 04:30 fuba wrote:
Because my game feels pretty much over either way, I'll just sheep Amiko.
##Vote: Palmar
Because why not~
He isn't even trying anymore, any questions will not be answered because he doesn't feel the need to answer anymore. Doesn't this screams scum to you?
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Edit: Looks like he decided to answer. I'll go filterdiving for mderg~
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If neither you nor anyone else can raise any reason to suspect mderg except that "it's possible" I don't have any problems with people sheeping a fuba lynch tomorrow. Fuba is the only one who is actually looking at mderg, so even if your concern was valid he'd still be better to have alive tomorrow.
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Sorry out to lunch, I'll look at the last couple things when I get back.
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From a voting perspective, mderg voted as such:
D1: MZ
D2: MZ -> Sloosh
D3: MZ
His reasons for voting MZ on the first day is this:
+ Show Spoiler +On May 29 2014 08:21 mderg wrote:Now on to Meapak. I think he might be the scum we´re looking for. Show nested quote +On May 28 2014 04:16 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:
I actually like 27NB's original post of jwz which is while I'll be voting for him. Let's talk about who else is scum aside from jwz, at the moment I'm looking a harurh because of his soft defense on jwz. mderg? Being pretty open with his defense, and while I think he's wrong, he's coming at it from a townie angle. Harurh on the other hand votes for jwz but then makes side comments in his favor. Thoughts?
Fuba's another possibility but right now I believe his jwz progression.
I don´t agree with his reasoning to vote for jabber but that´s not scummy in itself. What I really don´t like is the part about HaruRH. He assumes jabber is scum but in that case I think it´s way more likely for scum to completely bus him and hide under all the other votes on him. He also never really makes a follow up to this. Show nested quote +On May 28 2014 07:54 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:On May 28 2014 07:42 sqrtofneg1 wrote:
My point is this: Huge bandwagons always seem to be town bandwagons.
(cruisette mislynch in liii, cav mislynch in liv, sweetfrost mislynch and yellow suspection in lv, OdinofPergo in golden sun)
Jwz is my top scum read so far.
I was considering pushing a palmar lynch because he's my second scum read, and huge bandwagons always seem to be wrong. I could see myself convinced of a Palmar lynch, however let's not get too far ahead our ourselves. imo jwz is still the best choice and his lack of serious defense is only solidifying that. I think it would have been helpful to give reasons why he could be convinced of a Palmar lynch. To me it seems like searching for someone to sheep the lynch from. The part about sqrt is not actually something I see as scummy because it pushes for better information. I like how he defends me for my jabber defense. Show nested quote +On May 29 2014 04:36 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:
hmm I'm a bit suspect of people trying to develop a second wagon at the same time as they're voting JWZ. Either say you've changed your mind about jwz and explain why or start developing reads for tomorrow.
##Vote: jabberwockzerg
Thought there was a voting thread lol This part of his play seems good to me. This feels like he´s being critical about the ongoings and is trying to solve the game. So I liked how he defended me and was critically questioning a second bandwagon. But I didn´t like how he pushed HaruRH without following up at all. I also don´t like how he was basically just waiting for someone to make a case on Palmar. Overall I´m not convinced by his play. Everything I liked about his play posts about things surrounding the jabber lynch. He´s made some weird pushes without proper follow up which is what makes me think he might be scum. ##vote: Meapak_Ziphh
Overall reason: not convinced of his play of making weird pushes without proper followup.
From filterdiving mderg, excluding his defense on jwz, it all falls under 3 categories:
1) bussing
+ Show Spoiler +On May 31 2014 21:10 mderg wrote:I think sloosh´s first defense makes sense in theory but I think it looks kinda forced. I feel like if you want him to provide more content and proper reads, you can ask him questions about other people without pressuring too much. But almost ignoring feels like the wrong idea, if you want him to develop his own reads. I wasn´t completely sold on his scumminess but this defense just doesn´t sound townie to me. + Show Spoiler +On May 31 2014 01:00 slOosh wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2014 13:06 Amiko wrote:Okay, reading through filters, slOosh is my top scum right now and I want to lynch him. There’s other things that I think support scumreading him, but I think this is the best point so I want to start here and build. I think the central point is: After voting jabber, slOosh does nothing to develop his feelings on jabber. He doesn't try to get explanations from jabber or even follow up after jabber's responsesThis is the post where slOosh joins the vote for jabber. On May 28 2014 02:09 slOosh wrote:
Seems straightforward.
##Vote: jabberwockzerg Initially, this is worrisome because slOosh is joining the wagon in a noncommittal way. He isn’t stating what he agrees or disagrees with. This is a “+1” post. This is potentially scummy because it’s bandwagoning without commitment. But the remainder of the day is what turns from suspicious to scummy.After his vote, slOosh does almost nothing on the lynch on jabber. So, take a look at other players’ actions D1. Other players question jabber – they are not sure on the lynch, so they want to get more information or talk about the issue more with other players. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- slOosh's D1 is different from almost every other player D1 because of his lack of interaction or followup on slOoshI went through every players' filter and I think almost all of them (maybe not Slam) support my read on slOosh as uninterested in the jabber lynch. This is a little long so I'll put it in a spoiler, but I really invite you to read through it. + Show Spoiler +27Ninjabunnies:Many tons of interaction with jabber after she votes on him. + Show Spoiler +Meapak_Ziphh doesn’t interact with jabber much, but he does comment on the case numerous times through D1 and explaining how he feels on the lynch. His filter doesn’t look as good as bunnies to me – he doesn’t really ask jabber anything directly or necessarily stir up discussion. I think he's kind of suspicious anyway, but he’s still better than slOosh. + Show Spoiler +Gobbledydook:starts off with some hesitancy on the lynch and gives fair reasons, explains his thoughts as he goes, addresses comments to jabber as well. + Show Spoiler +HaruRH:A lot of Haru’s talk about JWZ is responsive, but he does address JWZ directly as well and comments on the lynch multiple times through d1. As an aside, rereading Haru’s talk D1 is the main reasons I now want to push slOosh over Haru. I still have doubts, for sure, but Haru’s level of interactionwith jabber feels so much higher than slOosh’s. + Show Spoiler +Sqrt:Sqrt was around when the case was made on jabber and interacted some with jabber and the players involved. He does ask jabber some questions and comments on jabber’s subsequent posts + Show Spoiler +Alakaslam: Ehh slam doesn’t really do much better than slOosh in this respect. He does have a little more on JWZ but it’s not too substantial either. + Show Spoiler +Mderg, Fuba, Palmar: I’m not going back into their filters because I did a lot already, and I know these players talked a lot about the jabber wagon on D1 so I don’t really want to post links on them for no reason. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So I just went through all these players. Why? It’s certainly possible for mafia to ask questions to jabber. They probably did! But, it is really hard for me to believe that town joins a vote on jabber, yet doesn’t seem to revisit the issue, talk about its merits with other players, or get some sort of confirmation from jabber.Pretty much every player in the game discussed the jabber lynch to some extent. Maybe we questioned jabber, or we explained our thoughts on why it could be a natural mistake, a scumslip, what jabber’s followup comments meant to us, etc. slOosh doesn’t ask any questions to jabber, or really follow up on the lynch. We get his explanation here (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=12#229). After voting for jabber, slOosh's D1 is questioning other players on why they vote for jabber, talking about Slam & Palmar, etc. Seriously, take a look at his filter and see how little he has to say about the lynch that was there basically the entire day. Wheres other players expressed doubt through trying to get more information, press jabber for more information, etc., If you are town, you (like me) did not know whether jabber was mafia or not. You talked about the lynch, you read jabber's responses, and you probably considered them and wrote something about your reads. slOosh's d1 reflects indifference to the lynch. I feel that indifference comes from scum. ##Vote: slOosh Not interacting with him isn't the same thing as indifference. Jabber was in a situation where basically the entirety of town was calling him scum. The best thing to do in this situation is to ease off the pressure so we can see if he can develop some reads and absolve himself. Otherwise all his efforts are put into trying to defend himself for a mistake we now know was innocently made, and cannot be defended. Which is what he ended up doing. This led to posts like this Show nested quote +On May 28 2014 09:20 jabberwockzerg wrote:I'm just gonna go 1 by 1 and tell what I think of everybody so far 1) Chromatically Thought his activity was suspicious at first, but rethinking about it now he doesn't seem too bad. 2) 27ninjabunnies Playing hard, throwing around leads. She could be scummy, but I'm leaning towards town for her. Nothing she's said has jumped out as questionable. 3) Meapak_Ziphh I agree with gobbledy, that his scatterbrainedness is more about a lack of confidence about his reads than scumm behavior. 4) gobbledydook no reads 5) jabberwockzerg That's me! Town, if there seems to be any confusion :D 6) mderg Not really getting much. 7) HaruRH Kinda defending me, which is cool of him. A real pal. Don't see why a Mafia would do that at all, so he's clean. 8) sqrtofneg1 On May 27 2014 10:17 sqrtofneg1 wrote:
tbh, I'm the reason we're in detention, so I have a lot of pressure on me to carry town to a win now.
So I'm not fine, I'm under pressure. and then following up with On May 27 2014 10:24 sqrtofneg1 wrote:
Or maybe I don't feel the pressure. Maybe I'm scum, for the first time.
You know what really drives me crazy? I must have played over 30 games of irl mafia by now, and I've rolled mafia twice. Cop I've rolled quite a bit of cop, and doctor at least 3 times, but I never rolled mafia. just kinda seems like a half baked WIFOM attempt from mafia to my (admittedly untrained) eyes also he has been throwing down a lot without following up on a lot. Probably my frontrunner for scum at this point. 9) slOosh not getting much 10) Amiko Good, high quality posts, but no read at this point in time 11) Alakaslam no read 12) fuba Defending me, which is great of him. No reason for a Mafia to defend me, so he's clean for me. 13) Palmar A little scummy, which has been covered but not really at the forefront of my mind. I'll be happy to answer any questions people have for the next couple hours and attempt to clear my name In hindsight we see that because his time and focus is bent on something that he admits was a mistake and is indefensible, his post quality dropped. At the time, it's not clear if this is from scum or town, because there isn't too much actual content in here. I wanted to avoid this by not adding onto the grilling of him, and instead watch what he does if left alone. This is why I started prodding other people as it's more productive than just waiting to see what jabber would say, and also maybe provide avenues for jabber to contribute. In the end jabber wasn't really able to mount any meaningful content so I left my vote on him. I don´t think him making a case on MZ is alignment indicative for either of them. An MZ lynch is basically the only way for sloosh to survive. If sloosh flips scum (I´m assuming that he will be the lynch for today) it doesn´t clear MZ at all, since sloosh´s case on him came only when both were under heavy pressure. This basically seals the deal for me. Show nested quote +On May 31 2014 05:07 Amiko wrote:He doesn’t indicate whether he wants another wagon or not – he waits to see who is proposed Here are ALL OF SLOOSH’S POSTS that come after we are discussing a second wagon until the vote. I was going to put this in a spoiler tag, but then I saw how few posts there were so why bother. On May 29 2014 03:38 slOosh wrote:
I assume he was piggybacking on the "seems straightforward" aspect.
@Amiko, what do you mean by second wagon? What does that look like? On May 29 2014 03:54 slOosh wrote:
Did the term wagon change while I was gone?
Are you guys proposing lynching someone else today? On May 29 2014 04:05 slOosh wrote:On May 29 2014 03:57 Amiko wrote:
@slOosh:
Maybe jabberwockzerg will be lynched today, maybe not. Either way, I'd rather have the day end where there are two people who reasonably could get lynched. In that case, our votes are more significant because they reflect an actual choice: it means people found one person scummy as compared to another person. If all the votes are on jabberwockzerg, the votes don't tell us much of anything and don't reflect a meaningful choice by the players.
Since some players don't want to vote jabberwockzerg, I want to know who their pick would be. I think with the deadline as is, if you want to bring up someone else you should do it immediately. On May 29 2014 04:14 slOosh wrote:On May 29 2014 04:07 Amiko wrote:
@slOosh:
I'm writing now and seeing what I find. I can post what I have and continue I suppose.
Btw I asked you for a read on Alakaslam a little earlier since a fair number of your posts seemed to focus on him, can you give me any comments?
@27ninjabunnies: Nothing personal bunnies, but I'm going to ignore that post unless you give me anything to write about :x Oh I must have missed it. His posting style as is this game seems fine. I was more concerned if he was going to take it all the way ala last game, which is cause for concern as making your posts intentionally harder to read usually only makes sense from scum perspective. When I raise a wagon (as he says I should do soon) he doesn't even comment on it. So, as I said before, slOosh is scum because he doesn't weigh in on jabber, who should be a focus for the day. But, slOosh is also scum because he doesn't weigh in on any of the other wagons (Palmar, Haru, fuba) What Amiko pointed out looks like textbook scumplay to me. With this I´m pretty sure sloosh is scum. My opinion on MZ also didn´t change one bit, it´s just that sloosh is even scummier than him. ##unvote
##vote: slOosh
He basically jumped onto the slooshwagon with a reason that is based on his feelings.
2) redirecting attention
After jumping onto the slooshwagon, he stated that scum should be on the MZ wagon, which he initially jumped out of.
+ Show Spoiler +On June 01 2014 18:52 mderg wrote:I don´t even want to imagine what would have happened, if gobble voted and MZ was town... In general I think scum is either MZ or likely to be found on the MZ wagon. I´m rather confident that it´s one between MZ, Palmar, sqrt, HaruRH. I don´t think it´s fuba, he started that and put himself in the spotlight in a way you probably wouldn´t want to as scum. The voteswitch at the end was strange because I don´t think it was going too easily. I mean the case was solid and based on sloosh´s whole game, and there were still like 3 people voting MZ. Show nested quote +On June 01 2014 09:41 sqrtofneg1 wrote:On June 01 2014 09:40 Amiko wrote:
Okay, so do you think these points are wrong?
What is wrong?
also @Palmar and @fuba you should be answering this too He could just be lazy town, as palmar (or was it fuba?) said. That was actually me and his defense suggested otherwise, so I don´t think it was really a solid point at the end of the day. Show nested quote +On June 01 2014 10:19 HaruRH wrote:On June 01 2014 06:40 slOosh wrote:Meapak is scum and skirting by another day because of the wagon on me. Please refer back to my case and don't get sidetracked. Make sure he gets lynched tomorrow. The fact that he comes in to slap his vote despite no one actually asking him why he did it is proof he isn't really attentive to thread. Pressure gobbles next. His huge post concerning MZ doesn't really seem to have a conclusion, and it's not clear how exactly he is reading MZ as town. With bunny, On May 31 2014 13:57 27ninjabunnies wrote:
I mean. Idk. I prob need to read the last few pages, but im super tired... Lol
Yeah, i think ill just post in the morning.
Sloosh, palmer, mz probz scum.
Will discuss later Find out what she means by this. As someone who was pretty involved day 1, she should question a palmer mz scum team the way they went against each other. Likewise for day 2. This is a very strange post. I don't think fuba is as scummy as people are making him to be. His reads of MZ and sqrt seem very reasonable in that they aren't leaning hard either way but seem to be developing over time, considering that they could be town / mafia, instead of just assuming that they are one and going with it, which is what mafia do. Amiko ... I'm not too sure. I could see scum making a strong push for MZ, since he brushes off anything I say about MZ and makes sure the focus is on me, or it could just be misguided townie thinking I'm the stronger lynch. I would be watchful of what his actions relating to non-MZ players are, especially during the next day. Good luck town. Watch out for busses tomorrow. If gobbles did not die out of a modkill, he would be our next suspect - and our next lynch. Did sloosh sell out his teammates? I don´t think he sold out his teammates. His "reads" should probably not even taken into consideration right now since he was almost certainly going to get lynched at that point. For now I´d still go with MZ. I read him as scum since the end of day 1. Show nested quote +On June 01 2014 18:52 mderg wrote:I don´t even want to imagine what would have happened, if gobble voted and MZ was town... In general I think scum is either MZ or likely to be found on the MZ wagon. I´m rather confident that it´s one between MZ, Palmar, sqrt, HaruRH. I don´t think it´s fuba, he started that and put himself in the spotlight in a way you probably wouldn´t want to as scum. The voteswitch at the end was strange because I don´t think it was going too easily. I mean the case was solid and based on sloosh´s whole game, and there were still like 3 people voting MZ. On June 01 2014 09:41 sqrtofneg1 wrote:On June 01 2014 09:40 Amiko wrote:
Okay, so do you think these points are wrong?
What is wrong?
also @Palmar and @fuba you should be answering this too He could just be lazy town, as palmar (or was it fuba?) said. That was actually me and his defense suggested otherwise, so I don´t think it was really a solid point at the end of the day. On June 01 2014 10:19 HaruRH wrote:On June 01 2014 06:40 slOosh wrote:Meapak is scum and skirting by another day because of the wagon on me. Please refer back to my case and don't get sidetracked. Make sure he gets lynched tomorrow. The fact that he comes in to slap his vote despite no one actually asking him why he did it is proof he isn't really attentive to thread. Pressure gobbles next. His huge post concerning MZ doesn't really seem to have a conclusion, and it's not clear how exactly he is reading MZ as town. With bunny, On May 31 2014 13:57 27ninjabunnies wrote:
I mean. Idk. I prob need to read the last few pages, but im super tired... Lol
Yeah, i think ill just post in the morning.
Sloosh, palmer, mz probz scum.
Will discuss later Find out what she means by this. As someone who was pretty involved day 1, she should question a palmer mz scum team the way they went against each other. Likewise for day 2. This is a very strange post. I don't think fuba is as scummy as people are making him to be. His reads of MZ and sqrt seem very reasonable in that they aren't leaning hard either way but seem to be developing over time, considering that they could be town / mafia, instead of just assuming that they are one and going with it, which is what mafia do. Amiko ... I'm not too sure. I could see scum making a strong push for MZ, since he brushes off anything I say about MZ and makes sure the focus is on me, or it could just be misguided townie thinking I'm the stronger lynch. I would be watchful of what his actions relating to non-MZ players are, especially during the next day. Good luck town. Watch out for busses tomorrow. If gobbles did not die out of a modkill, he would be our next suspect - and our next lynch. Did sloosh sell out his teammates? I don´t think he sold out his teammates. His "reads" should probably not even taken into consideration right now since he was almost certainly going to get lynched at that point. For now I´d still go with MZ. I read him as scum since the end of day 1.
3) agreeing
Much of his entire filter was filled with him agreeing with almost every little thing everyone wrote.
To me, he seems to be trying to avoid discussion about him through trying to post as effectively as possible. He certainly achieved this. But the play where he gave minimal reasons for sheeping sloosh lynch but yet suspect everyone on the MZ lynch, which he initially jumped out of, is very suspicious.
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Secondly, he managed to hang onto voting for MZ throughout the 3 days because of varied reasons that made his choice very towny. Likewise, hanging onto a MZ vote without providing much reasons (his only reason longer than 1 paragraph is what I spoilered above). Not much reasons for voting MZ. This is weird for someone so fixated on killing MZ, but yet points back at people who voted for MZ. He only stated that people on MZ were mafia when the lynch and modkill went through - everyone gave him the free pass for doing so. I don't like this. We need mderg talking.
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On June 06 2014 13:01 Amiko wrote:
@Mderg:
Can you talk some about fuba in particular?
Ideally I'd like you to make as strong a case on fuba as you can.
I don´t actually think fuba is mafia but I´ll do that today.
On June 07 2014 01:19 HaruRH wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2014 13:01 Amiko wrote:
@Mderg:
Can you talk some about fuba in particular?
Ideally I'd like you to make as strong a case on fuba as you can.
@fuba:
Can you explain to me why you raised your case on sqrt when you did?
I think I raised the point earlier-
To me, the tone of your post seemed like you were just interjecting in a conversation you were involved in (you said something like "I'm glad you mentioned sqrt"). But, if you were following the conversation, I would have expected you to be caught up on the slOosh / M_Z lynches and weigh in on the bandwagons.
It seemed to me like that post just didn't belong at that time.
There's other stuff on D2 I'll try to bring up as I continue through thread. It should be obvious by now that both fuba and mderg are intentionally hiding or trying to get attention - I still think fuba is the lynch. I am not going to convince both of you to switch to fuba, but Palmar's flip will prove to be a headache for us.
Sometimes people are actually just busy in rl.
I didn´t read those stories, pls tell me if there´s anything important in them.
On June 07 2014 02:19 Palmar wrote:
I've posted more in this game than the other two dudes combined and I'm being lynched
#logic
#Holyflarelogic
By that logic I would almost always be mafia. My filter is always short since I try to be efficient in my posting. But that doesn´t necessarily make one scum.
On June 07 2014 02:28 HaruRH wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2014 04:30 fuba wrote:
I also realize that both Palmar and I, whether town or scum, will probably want to lynch mderg first because mderg is a much more difficult person to lynch than myself or palmar, respectively.
I'm not sure there's a way for town to win out of this situation if Palmar isn't scum, tbh XD I feel like if I'm lynched first then Palmar is almost definitely the next lynch, judging from the thread recently. And if Palmar is lynched first then I'm not sure I see people lynching mderg over me, when even I've admitted that it makes more sense that he was actually roleblocked than scum is faking the roleblock.
Because my game feels pretty much over either way, I'll just sheep Amiko.
##Vote: Palmar
Because why not~ To me, this statement have convinced me fuba is the scum we are looking for. he did not include himself into the group of town. If it was any other town, he would have stated I'm not sure there's a way for us town to win out of this situation
I don´t think that makes any sense. You could even argue that scum pays closer attention to that while posting because they think about it.
On June 07 2014 02:29 Palmar wrote:
Ok, This is where I have to leave for a while. I can't guarantee I'll be back before the deadline.
Despite being and sounding frustrated, this has actually been fun. It's nice to have an actual challenge in front of you. Trying to move this town in the right direction feels like moving a mountain.
So in case I don't get back, sorry if I've gotten a bit mad at times.
@Amiko you haven't actually played awful. Your case on sloosh was very well disguised at least from my point of view. I thought it was a regular case and it being a cop-check case didn't even cross my mind. You're just being a bit thick headed today, but I guess it's a learning experience you have to go through. Make sure you realize what you did wrong because you're going to be the one leading the lylo lynch. I think it's fuba but I'm far from 100% convinced.
@Chrom, town hero, never forget.
@Haru, thanks for being reasonable. The trap thing you did was hilariously useless, but at least pointed to your thought process coming from a townie. You've played this day better than anyone else.
Thanks for playing guys.
This makes me unsure about Palmar being scum. The advice seems like genuine advice from a townie. I definitely have to think about that.
On June 07 2014 02:30 HaruRH wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2014 06:17 mderg wrote:I feel like Palmar´s defense is completely based on 1 point, that he wouldn´t play like this as mafia. His actions would make sense as town but they would also make sense as scum. His vote on bunnies doesn´t make him town. Slightly pushing a townie for weak reasons doesn´t instantly make one suspicious. It seems like a low risk low reward move to make as scum. Semi-busing sloosh and gobble was without any follow up, so that didn´t actually put them under huge pressure, so it wasn´t very dangerous and could be used to distance himself from these two resulting in him being less suspicious when they flip or the other way around. It would be pretty ballsy but I think Palmar is capable of that. Staying on MZ on day 2 also makes sense from a scum perspective because one more vote would have changed things. Especially with the third mafia not voting this could have ended in a mislynch and put a scumteam of sloosh, gobble, palmar in a good position. So it all kinda comes down to this: On June 06 2014 00:17 Palmar wrote:On June 06 2014 00:16 Amiko wrote:
You ignore the point of the votes.
You don't have to have your votes split d2 because there are still plenty of wagons you can unite behind.
You can try to attack the people who swapped for a mislynch (Haru, sqrt, fuba)
And, you can bus slOosh the next day if you need to.
It doesn't matter if all three of you vote M_Z. Who cares. I'm telling you. I would not do what I did as mafia. I think it's a terrible strategy. The thing about this is that it´s simply a matter of believing him or not believing him. And I don´t believe him. I don't know if mderg is trying to convince us all that Palmar is the scum through his feelings or what, this is definitely not something I would like to see from a mafia candidate. we need to pressure mderg more to speak up and give us his final thoughts rather than sheep you and afk.
I may be a "mafia candidate" but that doesn´t change the fact that I´m town and have a vote that matters. I would appreciate people looking into me, that should prove that I´m town.
On June 07 2014 02:41 HaruRH wrote:He is not even trying anymore. As I quote from mderg, Show nested quote +On June 04 2014 02:06 mderg wrote:
This honestly feels like scum who´s given up.
Who is that referring to?
I haven´t thoroughly read through the big posts, yet.
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Time to respond to fuba´s points.
On June 06 2014 00:05 fuba wrote:Chronologically through the thread: Mderg disagrees with the jabber lynch in his first post. He says I'm his top scumread based on me not immediately giving a reason for my vote, but doesn't respond in any way to my actual reasoning. This is the EXACT SAME THING that gobble did all game. Mderg really, really hard defends jabber, but despite a scumread on me for my super scummy vote w/o explanation, he doesn't place a vote. He doesn't try to get people off of jabber, he just tries to show that he's defending a townie. Chrom mentions this here: Show nested quote +On May 29 2014 06:12 mderg wrote:On May 29 2014 05:56 Chromatically wrote:
mderg what I can absolutely not understand is how you haven't done anything all day except defend jabber. You have not pushed any other target at all. What are you doing? A townie who wants a successful lynch would be pushing who they think is scum, not doing nothing at all except for defending someone.
The thing is that it´s difficult to make cases, if everyone does the same. It´s not like I have completely ignored others but sadly there´s limited information to go on. Chrom is incredibly critical of mderg's play D1, and he ends up dead D2. D2 he votes MZ, disappears for 23 hours, then switches to SlOosh. At the point he switches to SlOosh, the impetus is pretty strong behind that wagon. There's pretty much no way scum can lynch MZ unless all three of them jump onto him, something that scum rarely like to do. He also really firmly agrees with what Amiko says, so it could very easily be a bus. This firm agreement also makes it really difficult to back off of, especially if he tries to do it to mislynch MZ and we later find that SlOosh is scum. Mderg couldn't have switched his vote without looking really, really suspicious. He's then roleblocked N2, which made him look even more townie after the lynch. Could be real, but could also be solidifying him as town after a successful bus. The SlOosh lynch and the roleblock made me kinda ignore mderg as a suspect, but after filtering him he could certainly be the last scum. I'll look at palmar after class, but I think the thing I found scummiest about him was how quickly he appeared when I questioned the SlOosh lynch. Maybe he's town and he's being honest about not being able to play a lot on the weekend, maybe he's scum and he saw an opportunity to throw the thread into chaos D3 and secure a mislynch. That's really the only thing about that situation that I found really scummy about him though, since he'd been on MZ forever and clearly wanted MZ lynched over sloosh the entire time. Class time, be back later~
The reason for not responding to your actual reason for the jwz vote is that the reason was a logical explanation for your vote. My point about you was that you didn´t feel the need to give that reason yourself in a situation where I thought you should have. It also was not a very strong scumread on you so I didn´t vote.
Chrom was the only one even remotely pressuring me at that point but he was still leaning town on me, so it wouldn´t really make sense to kill him for that.
In a world where I´m mafia it would have made sense to bus sloosh. I agree that it was quite likely to be lynched at that point. But it also made very much sense for me as a townie to switch onto sloosh. The one reason I had to read him as less scummy than MZ was nullified by his defense which basically stated that the reason didn´t apply.
On June 07 2014 02:57 fuba wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2014 12:57 Amiko wrote:So for fuba/palmar/mderg, regardless of their alignment these players should understand that their team will 100% win if the other two players are lynched. So, for Palmar I think we talked through your motivations and I wasn’t really convinced, but maybe if you raise some points on mderg and fuba it’ll change my mind. Okay, so let's go through fuba's points on mderg- Fuba raises the point that mderg doesn’t actively push people on d1 and really just hard-defends jabber – when Chrom raises this point, Chrom dies the next day I think there is some legitimacy to the first part of this point, though mderg does raise some concerns on M_Z by the end of the day. But, rereading Chrom’s post, I feel that he is indicating more of a town-lean on mderg so I’m not sure the second part of the point pans out. Chrom’s post: + Show Spoiler + On May 30 2014 06:35 Chromatically wrote:mderg just feels really genuine to me. I think it would be easy for scum to randomly throw out a scumread to push when I started pressuring him, but mderg didn't back down, which is a much townier position. Scum would be more aware of how strange it looks that they're not pushing a read and would invent one to push. Show nested quote +On May 28 2014 23:43 mderg wrote:On May 28 2014 23:23 Chromatically wrote:
mderg, what would you say your objective is for today? What outcome would you be most happy with?? Well, my objective is to lynch scum but I don´t think that´s what you want to hear. It´s difficult to find a proper answer to that question because it´s not like I have someone I really want to lynch. I still don´t want jabber to be lynched. The outcome I would be most happy with would be lynching someone who is not jabber and scum. But since my defense for jabber didn´t seem to convince people I don´t think someone else will be lynched. I´d also be happy, if jabber flipped scum. That would make me wrong but it would put us in a good position. Genuine doesn't necessarily mean town though (I'm very wary of calling mderg town for that one post Palmar liked, I think that could easily come from scum). But, I think his posts show a townie thought process about honestly wanting to defend jabber. 2) Regarding mderg’s move to slOosh from M_ZTo me, I think mderg is town not only because his vote ended the day on slOosh (though that is a good sign) but also because of the timing of his switch. For context of when mderg switches to slOosh, check this - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=38#741 – Koshi did a vote count and mderg is the next post. So, when mderg switches, the votes are like this: On May 31 2014 20:55 Koshi wrote:
Meapak_Ziphh (3) - HaruRH, Palmar, mderg, SlOosh,
slOosh(4) – Amiko, Alakaslam, HaruRH, sqrtofneg1
Sqrtofneg1(1) - fuba
Not voting (3) : – 27ninjabunnies, Meapak_Ziphh, gobbledydook
What is significant to me about this vote count is the split: sloosh at 4, M_Z at 3. I feel like at this point, the votes were split such that I don’t feel mderg would feel he has to vote for a mafia teammate. I think he could have stayed on M_Z without much suspicion if he really wanted to, or could have even waited until a few more people voted to decide whether to change his mind. I just feel like the changed vote on mderg feels really inconsistent with scum play due to its timing, as well as its result. (Still going through thread) 1) Fair enough. I was going off of mderg's filter, where chrom seemed really suspicious of him. Looking at the timestamps, chrom posted his updated reads 4 hours before the N1 deadline, so his previous suspicions might have still been on scum's mind when they sent in the kill. Regardless, my point may be moot on this count simply because it looks like chrom's reads list has significant suspicion of both sloosh and gobble, and he appeared pretty townie D1, so his death didn't need to relate to mderg at all. A more thorough filter dive would be needed to tell if chrom's suspicions of sloosh and gobble were as obvious prior to his reads list, but I don't have the time at the moment :S In any case, I'd like to draw attention to the fact that mderg asks me for my thoughts on gobble and MZ at some point D1. I respond with my thoughts on gobble (my MZ thoughts to come later, as I had limited time), to which he responds that he disagrees with anything I say that might make gobble scum. He then writes a case on MZ being scum. SlOosh also asks me for my MZ read at some point. It makes me feel like scum wanted me to set up a case on MZ for them to sheep onto. To simplify: Mderg asks me for my thoughts on scum and town, I give my thoughts on scum, he says those thoughts don't indicate scum, he makes a case on town. It seems odd to ask for my thoughts on gobble for no reason, only to make a case on MZ. It's a weird progression, particularly with sloosh also wanting my input on MZ. Maybe I'm reading too much into it, idunno. 2) Not entirely accurate. I'd have to check bunnies' filter again, but it felt like her vote was promised to sloosh, since she said she had promised a case on him, but ran out of time. And MZ was clearly going to vote for sloosh. Gobble's vote, presumably, would have been going to MZ. All of the votes were already dedicated to someone, and it would have left: Show nested quote +Meapak_Ziphh (4) - HaruRH, Palmar, mderg, SlOosh, gobbledydook
slOosh(6) – Amiko, Alakaslam, HaruRH, sqrtofneg1, 27ninjabunnies, Meapak_Ziphh
Sqrtofneg1(1) - fuba
Not voting (0) : – none At this point, there's no winning for scum. While the votes aren't placed, we can generally guess where they're going to fall. And scum would have been watching this carefully the entire time. Even removing bunnies' vote, in case I'm incorrect, and adding my vote if I went for MZ instead, sloosh is still getting lynched over MZ, and that's with the entire scumteam on that wagon. This is actually the perfect time for him to switch over, because it still looks like the lynch is up in the air, when it's pretty much decided already. They don't want the entire scumteam on one wagon, it gains towncred to switch wagons "early", and the sloosh lynch looks inevitable. Scum have more information, and this looks like a situation where they used it pretty well to their advantage. Huh, palmar's kinda in the same boat as mderg in this situation, except he doesn't switch. My instinct tells me this is evidence of palmar being more likely town than mderg. Dunno though, would have to give that a bit more thought than I have time for atm. I think there are more questions for me, but I just realized that my appointment is in 3 minutes, so I've really gotta go. I'll be back in an hour-ish.
I asked for your thoughts on gobble because there was basically nothing about him in the game at that point and I didn´t really liked his play. With you asking about people to look into I thought it was a good opportunity to get some more thoughts on him. Also I didn´t disagree with everything you said was scummy about him. His reasoning for voting jwz seemed weak. I only thought not realizing the fact that jwz knew the scumteam from last game seemed more townie than scummy to me. I even disagreed with the part which said that he was unlikely to bus jwz. If I was scum I would have known that this point wouldn´t change anything, though.
I agree that it would have probably been a reasonable time to bus but It was also a reasonable time to switch as town.
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On June 06 2014 13:01 Amiko wrote:
@fuba:
Can you explain to me why you raised your case on sqrt when you did?
I think I raised the point earlier-
To me, the tone of your post seemed like you were just interjecting in a conversation you were involved in (you said something like "I'm glad you mentioned sqrt"). But, if you were following the conversation, I would have expected you to be caught up on the slOosh / M_Z lynches and weigh in on the bandwagons.
It seemed to me like that post just didn't belong at that time.
There's other stuff on D2 I'll try to bring up as I continue through thread.
I can't tell you exactly why, because I'm not 100% sure. It's true that the sqrt post didn't really belong at that time. Best explanation is that when I started writing it, I intended to not take hours to actually write it, but despite my best efforts I still take an eternity to write anything I feel is worthwhile. It was something that occurred to me as I was reading the thread, and wanted to mention it before I forgot. However, my thoughts got away from me, and it ended up taking some ridiculous amount of time to write, and ended up being all I did that night. I feel like the fact that his reads were jumping around like crazy reminded me of how it was pointed out that MZ's reads re: sqrt himself were jumping around like crazy, then I got sidetracked into a semi-case on sqrt. I can't actually remember what my point from that train of thought was, but I don't think it even ended up in the original post.
Basically, I sidetracked myself, lol
I think Palmar asked me why I dropped my case against gobble. I basically explained that already, but I read through my filter, and saw that some of the things that gobble was saying about me were true. From my own readthrough of my own filter, I didn't seem all that confident in the jabber lynch. That removed part of my problem with him - that he was misrepresenting me. Additionally, I asked someone what they thought of what I'd said about gobble. This is actually more than I usually do XD Unfortunately, the person I asked was SlOosh, who further discouraged me from my case. Since I had no one agreeing with me, and I had been operating from misinformation, I backed off. I did make it clear that I still found things he was doing to be scummy. If the rest of town doesn't feel like looking into it, there's nothing more I can do.
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On June 07 2014 02:50 Amiko wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2014 02:39 Palmar wrote:
So by definition while of course I use things like inactivity, interactivity, voting patterns etc to complement my ideas, your argument that part of your case was that sloosh was specifically more scummy than MZ is bullshit.
-- I raised the point that slOosh was scummier than M_Z a few times. Here are two quotes I picked as examples, because they show that two other players (sqrt and mderg) specifically understand that I was raising that point. Show nested quote +On May 31 2014 08:05 Amiko wrote:On May 31 2014 06:58 sqrtofneg1 wrote:
@amiko, just for clarification, you also think MZ is scummy, but you think sloosh is scummier, am I correct? Yeah, that's a fair description. I think most of the complaints about M_Z apply to slOosh, except moreso. And slOosh is scummy for other reasons, too. Show nested quote +On May 31 2014 21:10 mderg wrote:
What Amiko pointed out looks like textbook scumplay to me.
With this I´m pretty sure sloosh is scum. My opinion on MZ also didn´t change one bit, it´s just that sloosh is even scummier than him.
##unvote
##vote: slOosh
And I didn't agree. Because unless they post exactly the same stuff at exactly the same time all the game, they aren't the same person.
There was a specific post MZ made, and I've pointed to it repeatedly that made me disagree with you.
Again, you're arguing that I'm mafia for what I did, and not how I did it.
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Meh, mderg's last big post actually looks sort of townie so whatever.
I don't have more energy for this. If Amiko wants to be a dumbass he can be one.
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@fuba if you're town you better put at least the amount of effort I've put in today tomorrow.
Seriously, if you die with less than at least 60 in the final day and you flip town, I'm going to be really mad at you.
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On June 07 2014 04:47 Palmar wrote:
@fuba if you're town you better put at least the amount of effort I've put in today tomorrow.
Seriously, if you die with less than at least 60 in the final day and you flip town, I'm going to be really mad at you.
I'm not capable of posting that much. Just sayin'.
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On June 07 2014 04:49 fuba wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2014 04:47 Palmar wrote:
@fuba if you're town you better put at least the amount of effort I've put in today tomorrow.
Seriously, if you die with less than at least 60 in the final day and you flip town, I'm going to be really mad at you.
I'm not capable of posting that much. Just sayin'.
If I'm wrong and you're town I don't care what you're capable of.
I don't want to lose this game. You will do it.
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On June 07 2014 03:35 HaruRH wrote:From a voting perspective, mderg voted as such: D1: MZ D2: MZ -> Sloosh D3: MZ His reasons for voting MZ on the first day is this: + Show Spoiler +On May 29 2014 08:21 mderg wrote:Now on to Meapak. I think he might be the scum we´re looking for. Show nested quote +On May 28 2014 04:16 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:
I actually like 27NB's original post of jwz which is while I'll be voting for him. Let's talk about who else is scum aside from jwz, at the moment I'm looking a harurh because of his soft defense on jwz. mderg? Being pretty open with his defense, and while I think he's wrong, he's coming at it from a townie angle. Harurh on the other hand votes for jwz but then makes side comments in his favor. Thoughts?
Fuba's another possibility but right now I believe his jwz progression.
I don´t agree with his reasoning to vote for jabber but that´s not scummy in itself. What I really don´t like is the part about HaruRH. He assumes jabber is scum but in that case I think it´s way more likely for scum to completely bus him and hide under all the other votes on him. He also never really makes a follow up to this. Show nested quote +On May 28 2014 07:54 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:On May 28 2014 07:42 sqrtofneg1 wrote:
My point is this: Huge bandwagons always seem to be town bandwagons.
(cruisette mislynch in liii, cav mislynch in liv, sweetfrost mislynch and yellow suspection in lv, OdinofPergo in golden sun)
Jwz is my top scum read so far.
I was considering pushing a palmar lynch because he's my second scum read, and huge bandwagons always seem to be wrong. I could see myself convinced of a Palmar lynch, however let's not get too far ahead our ourselves. imo jwz is still the best choice and his lack of serious defense is only solidifying that. I think it would have been helpful to give reasons why he could be convinced of a Palmar lynch. To me it seems like searching for someone to sheep the lynch from. The part about sqrt is not actually something I see as scummy because it pushes for better information. I like how he defends me for my jabber defense. Show nested quote +On May 29 2014 04:36 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:
hmm I'm a bit suspect of people trying to develop a second wagon at the same time as they're voting JWZ. Either say you've changed your mind about jwz and explain why or start developing reads for tomorrow.
##Vote: jabberwockzerg
Thought there was a voting thread lol This part of his play seems good to me. This feels like he´s being critical about the ongoings and is trying to solve the game. So I liked how he defended me and was critically questioning a second bandwagon. But I didn´t like how he pushed HaruRH without following up at all. I also don´t like how he was basically just waiting for someone to make a case on Palmar. Overall I´m not convinced by his play. Everything I liked about his play posts about things surrounding the jabber lynch. He´s made some weird pushes without proper follow up which is what makes me think he might be scum. ##vote: Meapak_Ziphh Overall reason: not convinced of his play of making weird pushes without proper followup. From filterdiving mderg, excluding his defense on jwz, it all falls under 3 categories: 1) bussing + Show Spoiler +On May 31 2014 21:10 mderg wrote:I think sloosh´s first defense makes sense in theory but I think it looks kinda forced. I feel like if you want him to provide more content and proper reads, you can ask him questions about other people without pressuring too much. But almost ignoring feels like the wrong idea, if you want him to develop his own reads. I wasn´t completely sold on his scumminess but this defense just doesn´t sound townie to me. + Show Spoiler +On May 31 2014 01:00 slOosh wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2014 13:06 Amiko wrote:Okay, reading through filters, slOosh is my top scum right now and I want to lynch him. There’s other things that I think support scumreading him, but I think this is the best point so I want to start here and build. I think the central point is: After voting jabber, slOosh does nothing to develop his feelings on jabber. He doesn't try to get explanations from jabber or even follow up after jabber's responsesThis is the post where slOosh joins the vote for jabber. On May 28 2014 02:09 slOosh wrote:
Seems straightforward.
##Vote: jabberwockzerg Initially, this is worrisome because slOosh is joining the wagon in a noncommittal way. He isn’t stating what he agrees or disagrees with. This is a “+1” post. This is potentially scummy because it’s bandwagoning without commitment. But the remainder of the day is what turns from suspicious to scummy.After his vote, slOosh does almost nothing on the lynch on jabber. So, take a look at other players’ actions D1. Other players question jabber – they are not sure on the lynch, so they want to get more information or talk about the issue more with other players. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- slOosh's D1 is different from almost every other player D1 because of his lack of interaction or followup on slOoshI went through every players' filter and I think almost all of them (maybe not Slam) support my read on slOosh as uninterested in the jabber lynch. This is a little long so I'll put it in a spoiler, but I really invite you to read through it. + Show Spoiler +27Ninjabunnies:Many tons of interaction with jabber after she votes on him. + Show Spoiler +Meapak_Ziphh doesn’t interact with jabber much, but he does comment on the case numerous times through D1 and explaining how he feels on the lynch. His filter doesn’t look as good as bunnies to me – he doesn’t really ask jabber anything directly or necessarily stir up discussion. I think he's kind of suspicious anyway, but he’s still better than slOosh. + Show Spoiler +Gobbledydook:starts off with some hesitancy on the lynch and gives fair reasons, explains his thoughts as he goes, addresses comments to jabber as well. + Show Spoiler +HaruRH:A lot of Haru’s talk about JWZ is responsive, but he does address JWZ directly as well and comments on the lynch multiple times through d1. As an aside, rereading Haru’s talk D1 is the main reasons I now want to push slOosh over Haru. I still have doubts, for sure, but Haru’s level of interactionwith jabber feels so much higher than slOosh’s. + Show Spoiler +Sqrt:Sqrt was around when the case was made on jabber and interacted some with jabber and the players involved. He does ask jabber some questions and comments on jabber’s subsequent posts + Show Spoiler +Alakaslam: Ehh slam doesn’t really do much better than slOosh in this respect. He does have a little more on JWZ but it’s not too substantial either. + Show Spoiler +Mderg, Fuba, Palmar: I’m not going back into their filters because I did a lot already, and I know these players talked a lot about the jabber wagon on D1 so I don’t really want to post links on them for no reason. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So I just went through all these players. Why? It’s certainly possible for mafia to ask questions to jabber. They probably did! But, it is really hard for me to believe that town joins a vote on jabber, yet doesn’t seem to revisit the issue, talk about its merits with other players, or get some sort of confirmation from jabber.Pretty much every player in the game discussed the jabber lynch to some extent. Maybe we questioned jabber, or we explained our thoughts on why it could be a natural mistake, a scumslip, what jabber’s followup comments meant to us, etc. slOosh doesn’t ask any questions to jabber, or really follow up on the lynch. We get his explanation here (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=12#229). After voting for jabber, slOosh's D1 is questioning other players on why they vote for jabber, talking about Slam & Palmar, etc. Seriously, take a look at his filter and see how little he has to say about the lynch that was there basically the entire day. Wheres other players expressed doubt through trying to get more information, press jabber for more information, etc., If you are town, you (like me) did not know whether jabber was mafia or not. You talked about the lynch, you read jabber's responses, and you probably considered them and wrote something about your reads. slOosh's d1 reflects indifference to the lynch. I feel that indifference comes from scum. ##Vote: slOosh Not interacting with him isn't the same thing as indifference. Jabber was in a situation where basically the entirety of town was calling him scum. The best thing to do in this situation is to ease off the pressure so we can see if he can develop some reads and absolve himself. Otherwise all his efforts are put into trying to defend himself for a mistake we now know was innocently made, and cannot be defended. Which is what he ended up doing. This led to posts like this Show nested quote +On May 28 2014 09:20 jabberwockzerg wrote:I'm just gonna go 1 by 1 and tell what I think of everybody so far 1) Chromatically Thought his activity was suspicious at first, but rethinking about it now he doesn't seem too bad. 2) 27ninjabunnies Playing hard, throwing around leads. She could be scummy, but I'm leaning towards town for her. Nothing she's said has jumped out as questionable. 3) Meapak_Ziphh I agree with gobbledy, that his scatterbrainedness is more about a lack of confidence about his reads than scumm behavior. 4) gobbledydook no reads 5) jabberwockzerg That's me! Town, if there seems to be any confusion :D 6) mderg Not really getting much. 7) HaruRH Kinda defending me, which is cool of him. A real pal. Don't see why a Mafia would do that at all, so he's clean. 8) sqrtofneg1 On May 27 2014 10:17 sqrtofneg1 wrote:
tbh, I'm the reason we're in detention, so I have a lot of pressure on me to carry town to a win now.
So I'm not fine, I'm under pressure. and then following up with On May 27 2014 10:24 sqrtofneg1 wrote:
Or maybe I don't feel the pressure. Maybe I'm scum, for the first time.
You know what really drives me crazy? I must have played over 30 games of irl mafia by now, and I've rolled mafia twice. Cop I've rolled quite a bit of cop, and doctor at least 3 times, but I never rolled mafia. just kinda seems like a half baked WIFOM attempt from mafia to my (admittedly untrained) eyes also he has been throwing down a lot without following up on a lot. Probably my frontrunner for scum at this point. 9) slOosh not getting much 10) Amiko Good, high quality posts, but no read at this point in time 11) Alakaslam no read 12) fuba Defending me, which is great of him. No reason for a Mafia to defend me, so he's clean for me. 13) Palmar A little scummy, which has been covered but not really at the forefront of my mind. I'll be happy to answer any questions people have for the next couple hours and attempt to clear my name In hindsight we see that because his time and focus is bent on something that he admits was a mistake and is indefensible, his post quality dropped. At the time, it's not clear if this is from scum or town, because there isn't too much actual content in here. I wanted to avoid this by not adding onto the grilling of him, and instead watch what he does if left alone. This is why I started prodding other people as it's more productive than just waiting to see what jabber would say, and also maybe provide avenues for jabber to contribute. In the end jabber wasn't really able to mount any meaningful content so I left my vote on him. I don´t think him making a case on MZ is alignment indicative for either of them. An MZ lynch is basically the only way for sloosh to survive. If sloosh flips scum (I´m assuming that he will be the lynch for today) it doesn´t clear MZ at all, since sloosh´s case on him came only when both were under heavy pressure. This basically seals the deal for me. Show nested quote +On May 31 2014 05:07 Amiko wrote:He doesn’t indicate whether he wants another wagon or not – he waits to see who is proposed Here are ALL OF SLOOSH’S POSTS that come after we are discussing a second wagon until the vote. I was going to put this in a spoiler tag, but then I saw how few posts there were so why bother. On May 29 2014 03:38 slOosh wrote:
I assume he was piggybacking on the "seems straightforward" aspect.
@Amiko, what do you mean by second wagon? What does that look like? On May 29 2014 03:54 slOosh wrote:
Did the term wagon change while I was gone?
Are you guys proposing lynching someone else today? On May 29 2014 04:05 slOosh wrote:On May 29 2014 03:57 Amiko wrote:
@slOosh:
Maybe jabberwockzerg will be lynched today, maybe not. Either way, I'd rather have the day end where there are two people who reasonably could get lynched. In that case, our votes are more significant because they reflect an actual choice: it means people found one person scummy as compared to another person. If all the votes are on jabberwockzerg, the votes don't tell us much of anything and don't reflect a meaningful choice by the players.
Since some players don't want to vote jabberwockzerg, I want to know who their pick would be. I think with the deadline as is, if you want to bring up someone else you should do it immediately. On May 29 2014 04:14 slOosh wrote:On May 29 2014 04:07 Amiko wrote:
@slOosh:
I'm writing now and seeing what I find. I can post what I have and continue I suppose.
Btw I asked you for a read on Alakaslam a little earlier since a fair number of your posts seemed to focus on him, can you give me any comments?
@27ninjabunnies: Nothing personal bunnies, but I'm going to ignore that post unless you give me anything to write about :x Oh I must have missed it. His posting style as is this game seems fine. I was more concerned if he was going to take it all the way ala last game, which is cause for concern as making your posts intentionally harder to read usually only makes sense from scum perspective. When I raise a wagon (as he says I should do soon) he doesn't even comment on it. So, as I said before, slOosh is scum because he doesn't weigh in on jabber, who should be a focus for the day. But, slOosh is also scum because he doesn't weigh in on any of the other wagons (Palmar, Haru, fuba) What Amiko pointed out looks like textbook scumplay to me. With this I´m pretty sure sloosh is scum. My opinion on MZ also didn´t change one bit, it´s just that sloosh is even scummier than him. ##unvote
##vote: slOosh He basically jumped onto the slooshwagon with a reason that is based on his feelings. 2) redirecting attention After jumping onto the slooshwagon, he stated that scum should be on the MZ wagon, which he initially jumped out of. + Show Spoiler +On June 01 2014 18:52 mderg wrote:I don´t even want to imagine what would have happened, if gobble voted and MZ was town... In general I think scum is either MZ or likely to be found on the MZ wagon. I´m rather confident that it´s one between MZ, Palmar, sqrt, HaruRH. I don´t think it´s fuba, he started that and put himself in the spotlight in a way you probably wouldn´t want to as scum. The voteswitch at the end was strange because I don´t think it was going too easily. I mean the case was solid and based on sloosh´s whole game, and there were still like 3 people voting MZ. Show nested quote +On June 01 2014 09:41 sqrtofneg1 wrote:On June 01 2014 09:40 Amiko wrote:
Okay, so do you think these points are wrong?
What is wrong?
also @Palmar and @fuba you should be answering this too He could just be lazy town, as palmar (or was it fuba?) said. That was actually me and his defense suggested otherwise, so I don´t think it was really a solid point at the end of the day. Show nested quote +On June 01 2014 10:19 HaruRH wrote:On June 01 2014 06:40 slOosh wrote:Meapak is scum and skirting by another day because of the wagon on me. Please refer back to my case and don't get sidetracked. Make sure he gets lynched tomorrow. The fact that he comes in to slap his vote despite no one actually asking him why he did it is proof he isn't really attentive to thread. Pressure gobbles next. His huge post concerning MZ doesn't really seem to have a conclusion, and it's not clear how exactly he is reading MZ as town. With bunny, On May 31 2014 13:57 27ninjabunnies wrote:
I mean. Idk. I prob need to read the last few pages, but im super tired... Lol
Yeah, i think ill just post in the morning.
Sloosh, palmer, mz probz scum.
Will discuss later Find out what she means by this. As someone who was pretty involved day 1, she should question a palmer mz scum team the way they went against each other. Likewise for day 2. This is a very strange post. I don't think fuba is as scummy as people are making him to be. His reads of MZ and sqrt seem very reasonable in that they aren't leaning hard either way but seem to be developing over time, considering that they could be town / mafia, instead of just assuming that they are one and going with it, which is what mafia do. Amiko ... I'm not too sure. I could see scum making a strong push for MZ, since he brushes off anything I say about MZ and makes sure the focus is on me, or it could just be misguided townie thinking I'm the stronger lynch. I would be watchful of what his actions relating to non-MZ players are, especially during the next day. Good luck town. Watch out for busses tomorrow. If gobbles did not die out of a modkill, he would be our next suspect - and our next lynch. Did sloosh sell out his teammates? I don´t think he sold out his teammates. His "reads" should probably not even taken into consideration right now since he was almost certainly going to get lynched at that point. For now I´d still go with MZ. I read him as scum since the end of day 1. Show nested quote +On June 01 2014 18:52 mderg wrote:I don´t even want to imagine what would have happened, if gobble voted and MZ was town... In general I think scum is either MZ or likely to be found on the MZ wagon. I´m rather confident that it´s one between MZ, Palmar, sqrt, HaruRH. I don´t think it´s fuba, he started that and put himself in the spotlight in a way you probably wouldn´t want to as scum. The voteswitch at the end was strange because I don´t think it was going too easily. I mean the case was solid and based on sloosh´s whole game, and there were still like 3 people voting MZ. On June 01 2014 09:41 sqrtofneg1 wrote:On June 01 2014 09:40 Amiko wrote:
Okay, so do you think these points are wrong?
What is wrong?
also @Palmar and @fuba you should be answering this too He could just be lazy town, as palmar (or was it fuba?) said. That was actually me and his defense suggested otherwise, so I don´t think it was really a solid point at the end of the day. On June 01 2014 10:19 HaruRH wrote:On June 01 2014 06:40 slOosh wrote:Meapak is scum and skirting by another day because of the wagon on me. Please refer back to my case and don't get sidetracked. Make sure he gets lynched tomorrow. The fact that he comes in to slap his vote despite no one actually asking him why he did it is proof he isn't really attentive to thread. Pressure gobbles next. His huge post concerning MZ doesn't really seem to have a conclusion, and it's not clear how exactly he is reading MZ as town. With bunny, On May 31 2014 13:57 27ninjabunnies wrote:
I mean. Idk. I prob need to read the last few pages, but im super tired... Lol
Yeah, i think ill just post in the morning.
Sloosh, palmer, mz probz scum.
Will discuss later Find out what she means by this. As someone who was pretty involved day 1, she should question a palmer mz scum team the way they went against each other. Likewise for day 2. This is a very strange post. I don't think fuba is as scummy as people are making him to be. His reads of MZ and sqrt seem very reasonable in that they aren't leaning hard either way but seem to be developing over time, considering that they could be town / mafia, instead of just assuming that they are one and going with it, which is what mafia do. Amiko ... I'm not too sure. I could see scum making a strong push for MZ, since he brushes off anything I say about MZ and makes sure the focus is on me, or it could just be misguided townie thinking I'm the stronger lynch. I would be watchful of what his actions relating to non-MZ players are, especially during the next day. Good luck town. Watch out for busses tomorrow. If gobbles did not die out of a modkill, he would be our next suspect - and our next lynch. Did sloosh sell out his teammates? I don´t think he sold out his teammates. His "reads" should probably not even taken into consideration right now since he was almost certainly going to get lynched at that point. For now I´d still go with MZ. I read him as scum since the end of day 1. 3) agreeing Much of his entire filter was filled with him agreeing with almost every little thing everyone wrote. To me, he seems to be trying to avoid discussion about him through trying to post as effectively as possible. He certainly achieved this. But the play where he gave minimal reasons for sheeping sloosh lynch but yet suspect everyone on the MZ lynch, which he initially jumped out of, is very suspicious.
Regarding the bussing: I think it was pretty clear that my reason for voting him was that his defense contradicted the one point I thought made sloosh less likely to flip mafia than MZ. I thought he could have been lazy town but he basically said that he wanted to give jwz some air to breath.
To the second point I can´t say much. It´s logical that I think scum is very likely on the MZ wagon. I thought the case on sloosh was much stronger so in my opinion it was strange to jump on MZ for the same reason I didn´t want jwz lynched, just with the difference that this time the lynch wasn´t completely uncontested.
I don´t think I have been agreeing unreasonably much. Most times I agreed with things it was when I thought things were obvious. Funnily I agreed almost only with Amiko because Amiko was making sense and drawing logical conclusions.
Also here for example I´m kind of agreeing with Amiko but it should be obvious that I came to a similar thought independently.
On June 02 2014 03:22 mderg wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2014 03:09 Amiko wrote:
I don't mind answering that now.
I think attempting to plan out our lynch for tomorrow is not useful discussion.
We can figure out the best lynch for tomorrow tomorrow.
I don't hate that they talked about it though, cause it gives me something to pressure them on (M_Z / Palmar as the first two scum, and whether to follow slOosh's death list and what that means)
IMO tonight is better served rereading what we already have with new knowledge (that gobble & slOosh are both confirmed scum).
We saw people at the end of d2 talk about how the day and votes had such great information- so why aren't we seeing people attempt to use anything in d2 to justify their points? As you can probably guess I´m thinking about this in a similar way. Discussing where to look for scum and pressuring these guys when the lynch comes up seems to be more reasonable. Even though I think the remaining scum is in that lynch list I think that some actual discussion would be helpful.
On June 07 2014 03:40 HaruRH wrote:
Secondly, he managed to hang onto voting for MZ throughout the 3 days because of varied reasons that made his choice very towny. Likewise, hanging onto a MZ vote without providing much reasons (his only reason longer than 1 paragraph is what I spoilered above). Not much reasons for voting MZ. This is weird for someone so fixated on killing MZ, but yet points back at people who voted for MZ. He only stated that people on MZ were mafia when the lynch and modkill went through - everyone gave him the free pass for doing so. I don't like this. We need mderg talking.
This is actually a fair point. My play regarding the MZ lynch wasn´t optimal but you have to agree that MZ seemed like the best lynch candidate for a huge part of the game. That also applies to pretty much everyone. In hindsight the MZ lynch was played lazily by almost everyone.
Explaining my actions regarding MZ:
I didn´t pay much attention to him at the beginning but saw something that seemed odd at one point, so I went through his filter late on day 1 and thought he was scummy. Naturally that didn´t change on day 2 and I only changed my vote because the case on sloosh was very good. On day 3 pretty much everyone agreed on the MZ lynch and got lazy. With people voting my top scumread and him not posting much in his defense I thought the game was solved and I only thought a bit about others, just in case.
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