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If someone isn't following why that last MZ post raises alarms (aside from the fact he's calling everyone mafia), I'll explain.
On May 28 2014 08:42 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2014 08:26 sqrtofneg1 wrote:
You know what else I don't like?
Amiko's not as active as he usually is.
Yes, he's making big posts and big cases.
Yes, he has been the most substantial player so far, in terms of post content.
But he's not as active.
Other games, he's always around, asking people questions and the like.
This game, not so much. You've thrown around a lot of suspicions this game. Instead of making a vague statement like this, interpret what it means. If you leave it vague like this, it makes it seem like you're just trying to throw dirt on him without actually having to take a stand. Instead tell us why this is a problem, maybe provide some examples if you're gonna cite his meta.
The bolded quote is very much not trying to figure out i's alignment. If MZ thinks there is any chance i is mafia, why is he trying to stop i from digging his own grave under the threat of "if you keep doing this I'll be suspicious of you!!!!". This looks like MZ wants to read i as town, while still looking like he's poking people.
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On May 28 2014 08:47 Alakaslam wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2014 08:45 Palmar wrote:
MZ not everyone in the game is mafia. fuba and haru look bad, jwz is your most likely scumread and you could get behind a lynch on me, and now you're telling sqrtofneg1 that he might be mafia, while in the same breath explaining to him how he can get you to drop your "suspicion".
Welcome to my scum tier. I agree.
Do you have anything more to add than I Agree?
Personally I feel MZ's bet hedging is more a case of not being confident of his reads more than him trying to scatter attention as a mafia.
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On May 28 2014 08:45 Palmar wrote:
MZ not everyone in the game is mafia. fuba and haru look bad, jwz is your most likely scumread and you could get behind a lynch on me, and now you're telling sqrtofneg1 that he might be mafia, while in the same breath explaining to him how he can get you to drop your "suspicion".
Welcome to my scum tier.
Actually I didn't call sqrt scum, I was pointing out something that he's done which isn't helpful. I can have him correct that behavior and thus improve the town environment and maybe teach him something at the same time (which is after all the point of the game).
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No you just implied that what he was doing looked like something mafia might do.
If you're town, I would have expected this
"If you leave it vague like this, you're never going to convince anyone of following your example or agreeing with your read."
Because that sentence isn't loaded with agenda, like yours was
"If you leave it vague like this, it makes it seem like you're just trying to throw dirt on him without actually having to take a stand."
I may be reading too much into this, but it's bad form. If you want to affect his playstyle, don't do it in the same breath as you threaten him with a scumread..
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Ooooq..... Interesting.
Tbh i agree with MZ here. Sqrts play is kinda weird.
I dont like it.
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On May 28 2014 08:57 Palmar wrote:
No you just implied that what he was doing looked like something mafia might do.
If you're town, I would have expected this
"If you leave it vague like this, you're never going to convince anyone of following your example or agreeing with your read."
Because that sentence isn't loaded with agenda, like yours was
"If you leave it vague like this, it makes it seem like you're just trying to throw dirt on him without actually having to take a stand."
I may be reading too much into this, but it's bad form. If you want to affect his playstyle, don't do it in the same breath as you threaten him with a scumread..
I really don't think I threatened him with a scum read at all. I said that something he was doing could be seen as scummy. I never said that I thought he was scum because of what he was doing. And I'm not a fan of your insinuations that I'm calling everyone mafia. I have thus far stated my support for a jwz lynch, discussed that I'm looking at Haru and Fuba as possibilities for scum because of their defense of jwz (they've both responded, I haven't really reevaluated them yet), and I've stated I would support a lynch on you. That was primarily because you were acting like you didn't give a shit which I've seen in the past to be scumpalmar. That's not randomly flinging around accusations as you suggest.
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So, what of my playstyle do you not like MZ?
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jabber, if you're town you should definitely get in here and defend yourself
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On May 28 2014 09:15 Chromatically wrote:
jabber, if you're town you should definitely get in here and defend yourself
working on it 
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On May 28 2014 09:17 jabberwockzerg wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2014 09:15 Chromatically wrote:
jabber, if you're town you should definitely get in here and defend yourself working on it
Progress report?
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On May 28 2014 09:09 sqrtofneg1 wrote:
So, what of my playstyle do you not like MZ?
If you are suspicious of someone, push them. If you don't feel you have enough evidence yet then sit back and wait until you have enough evidence or you decide your suspicion was wrong. Don't post vague accusations.
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I'm just gonna go 1 by 1 and tell what I think of everybody so far
1) Chromatically
Thought his activity was suspicious at first, but rethinking about it now he doesn't seem too bad.
2) 27ninjabunnies
Playing hard, throwing around leads. She could be scummy, but I'm leaning towards town for her. Nothing she's said has jumped out as questionable.
3) Meapak_Ziphh
I agree with gobbledy, that his scatterbrainedness is more about a lack of confidence about his reads than scumm behavior.
4) gobbledydook
no reads
5) jabberwockzerg
That's me! Town, if there seems to be any confusion :D
6) mderg
Not really getting much.
7) HaruRH
Kinda defending me, which is cool of him. A real pal. Don't see why a Mafia would do that at all, so he's clean.
8) sqrtofneg1
On May 27 2014 10:17 sqrtofneg1 wrote:
tbh, I'm the reason we're in detention, so I have a lot of pressure on me to carry town to a win now.
So I'm not fine, I'm under pressure.
and then following up with
On May 27 2014 10:24 sqrtofneg1 wrote:
Or maybe I don't feel the pressure. Maybe I'm scum, for the first time.
You know what really drives me crazy? I must have played over 30 games of irl mafia by now, and I've rolled mafia twice. Cop I've rolled quite a bit of cop, and doctor at least 3 times, but I never rolled mafia.
just kinda seems like a half baked WIFOM attempt from mafia to my (admittedly untrained) eyes
also he has been throwing down a lot without following up on a lot. Probably my frontrunner for scum at this point.
9) slOosh
not getting much
10) Amiko
Good, high quality posts, but no read at this point in time
11) Alakaslam
no read
12) fuba
Defending me, which is great of him. No reason for a Mafia to defend me, so he's clean for me.
13) Palmar
A little scummy, which has been covered but not really at the forefront of my mind.
I'll be happy to answer any questions people have for the next couple hours and attempt to clear my name
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yeah sorry jwz but that post didn't do it for me. Still pretty sure you're scum.
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jabber can you address here please
On May 28 2014 05:05 Chromatically wrote:Finally back at a computer. I'm totally fine lynching jabber for obvious reasons, but I still would like to hear him answer the things I asked him. Here's the points I've had against him (partially stuff I've already said): -He deliberately lied this game. As town, he would have had no reason to even think about lying. As scum, he could have felt like he should add something to the conversation/was nervous/a number of other explanations for a mistake. Yes, it's bad play as either alignment. But imagine yourself as town in his situation: there's no way you would lie about it. -His explanations are inconsistent: + Show Spoiler +On May 27 2014 11:50 jabberwockzerg wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2014 11:44 27ninjabunnies wrote:On May 27 2014 11:20 jabberwockzerg wrote:
Counter point: he could have been super into last game because he was mafia, and isn't as into being vanilla town. So let me spell it out. It has to do with this post here. You were a squirrel eating nuts last game, were you not? Yet here, you say he could have been super into the last game because he was also sniffing the maple. Yet, he wasnt. You were. And you didnt know that that knowledge was made public to us. So either you are defending Chrom/slightly bussing here because he is your partner in crime, or you are again down among the badgers as you said chrom was leading more towards being a grim reaper in a town full of sickness, and you want to get him lynched. Clearing this up, I didn't mean mafia specifically, just non vanilla. Was this bad wording? Yes. Stupid of me? Yes. Learning experience, definitely "I didn't mean mafia, I just meant non-vanilla. Bad wording." On May 28 2014 00:21 jabberwockzerg wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2014 23:50 gobbledydook wrote:
Palmar I think there is actually a good motivation for him to say those words. If he had not read the last mafia qt to find out who was mafia and only relied on his memory and impressions, he would logically make that comment about differing playstyles. Sure what he said is factually incorrect but I believe it was an honest mistake.
Just like this I mean, I know this looks bad but this really is a case of Hanlon's razor: "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity" Here he agrees with gobble, who's saying that jabber didn't read the last mafia QT or didn't remember who was mafia (obviously not true)..? And also that it was an honest mistake. On May 28 2014 00:36 jabberwockzerg wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2014 00:26 Palmar wrote:On May 27 2014 23:50 gobbledydook wrote:
Palmar I think there is actually a good motivation for him to say those words. If he had not read the last mafia qt to find out who was mafia and only relied on his memory and impressions, he would logically make that comment about differing playstyles. Sure what he said is factually incorrect but I believe it was an honest mistake.
He even posted in that QT, so he read it. On May 28 2014 00:21 jabberwockzerg wrote:
Just like this
I mean, I know this looks bad
but this really is a case of Hanlon's razor:
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity" Well explain to me what your point was meant to accomplish? I'm all ears buddy. Keenly, I was trying to think of everything, leaving no stone upturned. I guess I got trapped under one of these stones "I was trying to think of every possible scenario." On May 28 2014 01:14 jabberwockzerg wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2014 20:59 Chromatically wrote:Also, read this whole page again: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=5bunnies starts by (presumably) joking about me being scum, not a serious push as evidenced by not voting. On May 27 2014 11:19 jabberwockzerg wrote:
Both of you make a fair point, but I agree with bunnies.
If he's lurking (he probably is) he'll be quick to post something, which we can further use as more information comes to light This is jabber's passive-agressive response. "he probably is" heavily implies that jabber has a strong scumread on me, which clearly doesn't make sense given that I've made one completely non-alignment indicative post. From a scum perspective, it makes sense for jabber to try to go with the flow of the thread and throw suspicion on me, but accidentally take it too far. On May 27 2014 11:20 jabberwockzerg wrote:
Counter point: he could have been super into last game because he was mafia, and isn't as into being vanilla town. On May 27 2014 11:21 jabberwockzerg wrote:
Definitely leaving towards scum though Again, here he makes it seem as if he strongly thinks I'm scum, which just doesn't make sense unless he has a preset idea of what he wants to push my alignment as. Lovely. I was trying to get the game moving along, I was pretty pumped to start interrogating and scum reading, which isn't how I acted last game, when I was scum. Lying about who was scum last game, I was trying to conceal information. I didn't realize that last game's roles were known, it would be beneficial for me if no one knew I was Mafia, just because there would be no real patterns of my play, and I could remain a wild card, which I thought could help me later. "I was trying to conceal information to help me in this game." These are all inconsistent with each other: it cannot be an "honest mistake" if he was deliberately concealing information, he clearly didn't mean that I could have been "non-vanilla", not necessarily mafia, if he was concealing information, etc. He's changing his explanation because he's just making them up: he doesn't have a real reason. -His last explanation is scummy in and of itself, town has no reason to make themselves harder to read. -He didn't explain himself earlier when he had the opportunity. Town would have explained themselves as soon as they were called out. ##Vote: jabberwockzerg
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On May 28 2014 09:20 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2014 09:09 sqrtofneg1 wrote:
So, what of my playstyle do you not like MZ? If you are suspicious of someone, push them. If you don't feel you have enough evidence yet then sit back and wait until you have enough evidence or you decide your suspicion was wrong. Don't post vague accusations.
That's how I play.
I post every little single thing I think of. I post every little single piece of doubt. I post every little single piece of suspicion.
I'll bring into light what I feel will be helpful to know, even if it is a tiny piece of evidence.
That's how I play, and if you don't like it, too bad.
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On May 28 2014 09:20 jabberwockzerg wrote:I'm just gonna go 1 by 1 and tell what I think of everybody so far 1) Chromatically Thought his activity was suspicious at first, but rethinking about it now he doesn't seem too bad. 2) 27ninjabunnies Playing hard, throwing around leads. She could be scummy, but I'm leaning towards town for her. Nothing she's said has jumped out as questionable. 3) Meapak_Ziphh I agree with gobbledy, that his scatterbrainedness is more about a lack of confidence about his reads than scumm behavior. 4) gobbledydook no reads 5) jabberwockzerg That's me! Town, if there seems to be any confusion :D 6) mderg Not really getting much. 7) HaruRH Kinda defending me, which is cool of him. A real pal. Don't see why a Mafia would do that at all, so he's clean. 8) sqrtofneg1 Show nested quote +On May 27 2014 10:17 sqrtofneg1 wrote:
tbh, I'm the reason we're in detention, so I have a lot of pressure on me to carry town to a win now.
So I'm not fine, I'm under pressure. and then following up with Show nested quote +On May 27 2014 10:24 sqrtofneg1 wrote:
Or maybe I don't feel the pressure. Maybe I'm scum, for the first time.
You know what really drives me crazy? I must have played over 30 games of irl mafia by now, and I've rolled mafia twice. Cop I've rolled quite a bit of cop, and doctor at least 3 times, but I never rolled mafia. just kinda seems like a half baked WIFOM attempt from mafia to my (admittedly untrained) eyes also he has been throwing down a lot without following up on a lot. Probably my frontrunner for scum at this point. 9) slOosh not getting much 10) Amiko Good, high quality posts, but no read at this point in time 11) Alakaslam no read 12) fuba Defending me, which is great of him. No reason for a Mafia to defend me, so he's clean for me. 13) Palmar A little scummy, which has been covered but not really at the forefront of my mind. I'll be happy to answer any questions people have for the next couple hours and attempt to clear my name
So everyone is basically null, no read, or possible scum?
This was probably the most least productive post written so far, and that's saying something.
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On May 28 2014 09:24 27ninjabunnies wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2014 09:20 jabberwockzerg wrote:I'm just gonna go 1 by 1 and tell what I think of everybody so far 1) Chromatically Thought his activity was suspicious at first, but rethinking about it now he doesn't seem too bad. 2) 27ninjabunnies Playing hard, throwing around leads. She could be scummy, but I'm leaning towards town for her. Nothing she's said has jumped out as questionable. 3) Meapak_Ziphh I agree with gobbledy, that his scatterbrainedness is more about a lack of confidence about his reads than scumm behavior. 4) gobbledydook no reads 5) jabberwockzerg That's me! Town, if there seems to be any confusion :D 6) mderg Not really getting much. 7) HaruRH Kinda defending me, which is cool of him. A real pal. Don't see why a Mafia would do that at all, so he's clean. 8) sqrtofneg1 On May 27 2014 10:17 sqrtofneg1 wrote:
tbh, I'm the reason we're in detention, so I have a lot of pressure on me to carry town to a win now.
So I'm not fine, I'm under pressure. and then following up with On May 27 2014 10:24 sqrtofneg1 wrote:
Or maybe I don't feel the pressure. Maybe I'm scum, for the first time.
You know what really drives me crazy? I must have played over 30 games of irl mafia by now, and I've rolled mafia twice. Cop I've rolled quite a bit of cop, and doctor at least 3 times, but I never rolled mafia. just kinda seems like a half baked WIFOM attempt from mafia to my (admittedly untrained) eyes also he has been throwing down a lot without following up on a lot. Probably my frontrunner for scum at this point. 9) slOosh not getting much 10) Amiko Good, high quality posts, but no read at this point in time 11) Alakaslam no read 12) fuba Defending me, which is great of him. No reason for a Mafia to defend me, so he's clean for me. 13) Palmar A little scummy, which has been covered but not really at the forefront of my mind. I'll be happy to answer any questions people have for the next couple hours and attempt to clear my name So everyone is basically null, no read, or possible scum? This was probably the most least productive post written so far, and that's saying something.
Precisely the problem with this post.
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Bunnies, can you tell me what you think of mderg?
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On May 28 2014 09:28 sqrtofneg1 wrote:
Bunnies, can you tell me what you think of mderg?
Sure.
So mderg comes into the thread not liking the lynch on jabber, he believe jabber's slip isnt a slip at all. Just bad play.
O find it a bit weird he wants to lynch fuba over jabber, and i didnt really see a reason as to why in his filter, only that fuba was against the lynch of jabber, and now he is not.
Also i agree with him that everyone jumping on the wagon is a bit here.
If jabber is mafia, mderg could be as well for this hard defense of him.
If jabber is town, mderg could be a hipster mafia trying to gain town credibility.
Both scenerios points to him as mafia. I just dont see him as town, except that he is pretty sure jabber is a mislynch here,
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On May 28 2014 09:23 Chromatically wrote:jabber can you address here please Show nested quote +On May 28 2014 05:05 Chromatically wrote:Finally back at a computer. I'm totally fine lynching jabber for obvious reasons, but I still would like to hear him answer the things I asked him. Here's the points I've had against him (partially stuff I've already said): -He deliberately lied this game. As town, he would have had no reason to even think about lying. As scum, he could have felt like he should add something to the conversation/was nervous/a number of other explanations for a mistake. Yes, it's bad play as either alignment. But imagine yourself as town in his situation: there's no way you would lie about it. -His explanations are inconsistent: + Show Spoiler +On May 27 2014 11:50 jabberwockzerg wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2014 11:44 27ninjabunnies wrote:On May 27 2014 11:20 jabberwockzerg wrote:
Counter point: he could have been super into last game because he was mafia, and isn't as into being vanilla town. So let me spell it out. It has to do with this post here. You were a squirrel eating nuts last game, were you not? Yet here, you say he could have been super into the last game because he was also sniffing the maple. Yet, he wasnt. You were. And you didnt know that that knowledge was made public to us. So either you are defending Chrom/slightly bussing here because he is your partner in crime, or you are again down among the badgers as you said chrom was leading more towards being a grim reaper in a town full of sickness, and you want to get him lynched. Clearing this up, I didn't mean mafia specifically, just non vanilla. Was this bad wording? Yes. Stupid of me? Yes. Learning experience, definitely "I didn't mean mafia, I just meant non-vanilla. Bad wording." On May 28 2014 00:21 jabberwockzerg wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2014 23:50 gobbledydook wrote:
Palmar I think there is actually a good motivation for him to say those words. If he had not read the last mafia qt to find out who was mafia and only relied on his memory and impressions, he would logically make that comment about differing playstyles. Sure what he said is factually incorrect but I believe it was an honest mistake.
Just like this I mean, I know this looks bad but this really is a case of Hanlon's razor: "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity" Here he agrees with gobble, who's saying that jabber didn't read the last mafia QT or didn't remember who was mafia (obviously not true)..? And also that it was an honest mistake. On May 28 2014 00:36 jabberwockzerg wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2014 00:26 Palmar wrote:On May 27 2014 23:50 gobbledydook wrote:
Palmar I think there is actually a good motivation for him to say those words. If he had not read the last mafia qt to find out who was mafia and only relied on his memory and impressions, he would logically make that comment about differing playstyles. Sure what he said is factually incorrect but I believe it was an honest mistake.
He even posted in that QT, so he read it. On May 28 2014 00:21 jabberwockzerg wrote:
Just like this
I mean, I know this looks bad
but this really is a case of Hanlon's razor:
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity" Well explain to me what your point was meant to accomplish? I'm all ears buddy. Keenly, I was trying to think of everything, leaving no stone upturned. I guess I got trapped under one of these stones "I was trying to think of every possible scenario." On May 28 2014 01:14 jabberwockzerg wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2014 20:59 Chromatically wrote:Also, read this whole page again: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=5bunnies starts by (presumably) joking about me being scum, not a serious push as evidenced by not voting. On May 27 2014 11:19 jabberwockzerg wrote:
Both of you make a fair point, but I agree with bunnies.
If he's lurking (he probably is) he'll be quick to post something, which we can further use as more information comes to light This is jabber's passive-agressive response. "he probably is" heavily implies that jabber has a strong scumread on me, which clearly doesn't make sense given that I've made one completely non-alignment indicative post. From a scum perspective, it makes sense for jabber to try to go with the flow of the thread and throw suspicion on me, but accidentally take it too far. On May 27 2014 11:20 jabberwockzerg wrote:
Counter point: he could have been super into last game because he was mafia, and isn't as into being vanilla town. On May 27 2014 11:21 jabberwockzerg wrote:
Definitely leaving towards scum though Again, here he makes it seem as if he strongly thinks I'm scum, which just doesn't make sense unless he has a preset idea of what he wants to push my alignment as. Lovely. I was trying to get the game moving along, I was pretty pumped to start interrogating and scum reading, which isn't how I acted last game, when I was scum. Lying about who was scum last game, I was trying to conceal information. I didn't realize that last game's roles were known, it would be beneficial for me if no one knew I was Mafia, just because there would be no real patterns of my play, and I could remain a wild card, which I thought could help me later. "I was trying to conceal information to help me in this game." These are all inconsistent with each other: it cannot be an "honest mistake" if he was deliberately concealing information, he clearly didn't mean that I could have been "non-vanilla", not necessarily mafia, if he was concealing information, etc. He's changing his explanation because he's just making them up: he doesn't have a real reason. -His last explanation is scummy in and of itself, town has no reason to make themselves harder to read. -He didn't explain himself earlier when he had the opportunity. Town would have explained themselves as soon as they were called out. ##Vote: jabberwockzerg
Certainly
Basically, I thought concealing information about myself would help me out in the long run. This belief, and the later admission of it, came from a fundamental misunderstanding of how this game is really played. This is what caused my initial post, and my explanations. Now, I'm learning more about what goes down and that as town, especially as town, the most important thing is to just be clear and honest and try to find the real scum.
This game is a lot more fun and layered than I first thought, and I can't wait to sink my teeth in.
It's really looking like a lynch at this point, so I'm grateful this shitstorm happened because I learned so much from it.
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EPT
