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yrt123: your post completely fails to understand what I'm trying to say, so I agree you shouldn't bother trying to reply to me anymore
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On April 24 2013 00:54 Undead1993 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 00:49 Dhays9 wrote:On April 24 2013 00:44 fleeze wrote:On April 24 2013 00:39 Dhays9 wrote:On April 24 2013 00:22 Undead1993 wrote:
Well, to discuss here with the strange opinions of some people has no sense.
So, i will post my opinion and get out of here.
First of all, I mostly agree with sase and typenaruto.
If there will be no invites for the chinese whatsoever, i don't care if blizzard does this or mlg or esl or someone else, i will be very disappointed with all of these organisations. Mostly with mlg though. this statement means little, it means they recognized our anger towards them, but it doesn't mean that they actually give something about the fate of the chinese players and the players who joined this bracket just to get knocked out by hackers/hyun. Most of the reasons, why this was a disaster mentioned in the apology, were very obvious, for example "the demand to enter the WCS Qualifier was much higher than we had anticipated". I can only laugh about this. all in all, i like that they did a statement, but how this apology was structured after such a weekend is just absurd. in the next few days, I demand invites for the chinese players, i demand mlg to directly say sorry to the chinese players, and the players who got knocked out by this hacker (why do such people exist anyways, I don't get it, as idra yesterday said "such a waste of life"). finally, I demand mlg admins that are not fully retarded. someone has to do something, has to act not just talk, this isn't very serious, the apology isn't serious, if someone takes esports serious, he should start acting, and not talking and posting this childish apology.
hf gl. You cannot demand a company to do something for you when they give you a free product. Was a lot of the stuff that happened shitty? Yes it was but to demand a company to something when they gave you a free product is just ridiculous. If you do not like what they do then tune out and watch it support something else and when MLG sees that they cannot sustain a buisness with what they are doing due to people leaving g is when we will truly see change. Not from people shining over and over on an internet forum. As for the definition of open has blizzard specifically said what theirs is or was the decision left to the individual organizer? we haven't seen the contract and probably won't ever see it. but the descrepancy between ESLs definition and MLGs is pretty obvious. WCS is a blizzard funded product btw. your logic doesn't apply here. How does my logic not apply? We get free product. The only people who can truly demand a change is Blizzard and like you said we do not know what is in the contract between the two. Therefore, my logic still value unless you meant something else. for me, your logic doesnt apply because with "I" i actully mean the whole community. i alone can't demand anything you are quite right on that, but the whole community should demand it, and thats what they care about, the viewers. unfortunately, you didn't quite undestand that. I will for sure not act like "I am kiddie on an inet forum give me what i want!. I hope you understand that right now, and it's not a free product if they get sponsored by people, they get money to do the right thing and they didn't. therefore, there must be consequences.
Obviously we have fundamental differences on the views of business and that results in our different views. Yes, they have sponsers and the only thing sponsors care about is getting their name out there. As long as they are still pulling 8k+ viewers on a week and not having a scandal such MLG is money laundering. Therefore the only organization they are responsible to is Blizzard. Until they drop down to 1k or 500 people or less on weekdays I doubt anything will change.
Unfortunately I probably won't be able to respond for a while as my break is almost up but I will try to respond to your rebuttal when I get a chance.
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On April 24 2013 01:08 FromShouri wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 00:59 Doc.Rivers wrote:On April 24 2013 00:16 Dracid wrote:On April 23 2013 23:49 Doc.Rivers wrote:
MLG screwed up but they didn't kill any children. I'm satisfied with the apology and trust that future online MLG tourneys will not have the same problems.
Ultimately, the end results of WCS NA S1 probably won't be affected by this. All the spots with a worthwhile amount of points will be taken by Koreans. Sorry that 2 or 3 Chinese pros missed out on their .1% chance to qualify but it doesn't make the tournament a farce. I'll bet they don't even know how to get visas lol. Ultimately this qualifier won't have any lasting damaging affect on the scene.., that much is pretty obvious. .1% chance to qualify? Comm aside, Top and Macsed were both 1 game away from qualifying, and Macsed 2-0d Sage and JYP to get there as well as taking a game off of Oz. XY is of a comparable skill level, and Jim is arguably even better than them. This is exactly why I'm pissed actually. The Chinese scene is pretty isolated compared to the rest of the world, so you rarely see Chinese players in tournaments and nobody really knows who they are. They practice though, they practice hard. The Koreans are of course still better, but skill-wise they're up there with top players from the rest of the world. So they've got good players, but very few opportunities to show that they're good, leading to people like Doc.Rivers giving them a .1% chance to qualify despite 3 of the top 12 being Chinese. People complain about Koreans taking over WCS NA but you've still got 16 seeded slots for the premier league, the Chinese got ZERO. WCS China is gone, WCS Korea is scary and requires you to enter the GSL, and China to EU is laggy, so WCS NA more or less becomes China's region for WCS. Opportunities for top Chinese players to compete with the rest of the world are fairly rare to begin with, if that opportunity gets denied by incompetent tournament organization then of course people are going to be upset. Saying you'll "fix it next time" isn't much of a consolation when MLG's the ones who messed up and every WCS event counts towards the grand finals. You are right about their chances to qualify and I was incorrect to say .1%. My overall point that MLG didn't kill any children and the scene won't be damaged by this still stands though. Should MLGhave foreseen that Chinese players should've seeded Ito the qualifiers? I didn't see any calls from the community before the event for it happen. This leads me to believe its a hindsight 20/20 kind of thing. Nonetheless it's very unfortunate the Chinese didn't get to play and it was a mistake by MLG. Not much can be done about it now short of red-doing the qualifiers which can't happen. All we can do is wait for MLG to improve in the future, which they will. IMO the tone and quantity of complaints in these threads is not productive and out of proportion to the crime. As a former semi pro player that has played in TL open and many other online tournaments of equal or greater size, your statement is entirely flawed, no one is asking for chinese players to get seeded, just that they be given a far chance like everyone else. But for an MLG official to tell them they have spots, then take those spots away, is entirely unacceptable. Not to mention someone as "experienced" in hosting tournaments as MLG should of fucking known how big this was gonna be and had multiple brackets, instead they fucked up and you can't defend their actions because they are in the wrong here.
I don't defend their actions, I admit they screwed up. You can continue to condemn them but its not productive.
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as a way to compare WCS 2012 with WCS 2013 let's count the number of official apologies 
people can make excuses for Blizzard and point fingers at GSL for changing their prize pool...
point fingers at ESL for getting the check in times messed up...
and point fingers at MLG for this recent debacle..
but the common thread is .. its Blizzard's baby.... its their badly rushed to market WCS ...
and ultimately, a great WCS would help future SC2 sales... and a horrible WCS event won't help future SC2 sales.
so ultimately, Blizzard will pay the highest price for this.. because the big money maker in this entire machinery is selling copies of Starcraft.
keep the excuses for Blizzard coming though.. its entertaining to twist my mind into a pretzel of rationalizations... trying to follow the logic of these great excuses.
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On April 24 2013 01:33 Doc.Rivers wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 01:08 FromShouri wrote:On April 24 2013 00:59 Doc.Rivers wrote:On April 24 2013 00:16 Dracid wrote:On April 23 2013 23:49 Doc.Rivers wrote:
MLG screwed up but they didn't kill any children. I'm satisfied with the apology and trust that future online MLG tourneys will not have the same problems.
Ultimately, the end results of WCS NA S1 probably won't be affected by this. All the spots with a worthwhile amount of points will be taken by Koreans. Sorry that 2 or 3 Chinese pros missed out on their .1% chance to qualify but it doesn't make the tournament a farce. I'll bet they don't even know how to get visas lol. Ultimately this qualifier won't have any lasting damaging affect on the scene.., that much is pretty obvious. .1% chance to qualify? Comm aside, Top and Macsed were both 1 game away from qualifying, and Macsed 2-0d Sage and JYP to get there as well as taking a game off of Oz. XY is of a comparable skill level, and Jim is arguably even better than them. This is exactly why I'm pissed actually. The Chinese scene is pretty isolated compared to the rest of the world, so you rarely see Chinese players in tournaments and nobody really knows who they are. They practice though, they practice hard. The Koreans are of course still better, but skill-wise they're up there with top players from the rest of the world. So they've got good players, but very few opportunities to show that they're good, leading to people like Doc.Rivers giving them a .1% chance to qualify despite 3 of the top 12 being Chinese. People complain about Koreans taking over WCS NA but you've still got 16 seeded slots for the premier league, the Chinese got ZERO. WCS China is gone, WCS Korea is scary and requires you to enter the GSL, and China to EU is laggy, so WCS NA more or less becomes China's region for WCS. Opportunities for top Chinese players to compete with the rest of the world are fairly rare to begin with, if that opportunity gets denied by incompetent tournament organization then of course people are going to be upset. Saying you'll "fix it next time" isn't much of a consolation when MLG's the ones who messed up and every WCS event counts towards the grand finals. You are right about their chances to qualify and I was incorrect to say .1%. My overall point that MLG didn't kill any children and the scene won't be damaged by this still stands though. Should MLGhave foreseen that Chinese players should've seeded Ito the qualifiers? I didn't see any calls from the community before the event for it happen. This leads me to believe its a hindsight 20/20 kind of thing. Nonetheless it's very unfortunate the Chinese didn't get to play and it was a mistake by MLG. Not much can be done about it now short of red-doing the qualifiers which can't happen. All we can do is wait for MLG to improve in the future, which they will. IMO the tone and quantity of complaints in these threads is not productive and out of proportion to the crime. As a former semi pro player that has played in TL open and many other online tournaments of equal or greater size, your statement is entirely flawed, no one is asking for chinese players to get seeded, just that they be given a far chance like everyone else. But for an MLG official to tell them they have spots, then take those spots away, is entirely unacceptable. Not to mention someone as "experienced" in hosting tournaments as MLG should of fucking known how big this was gonna be and had multiple brackets, instead they fucked up and you can't defend their actions because they are in the wrong here. I don't defend their actions, I admit they screwed up. You can continue to condemn them but its not productive.
there still are no fixes for the issues. it's not even condemning them but making them realize the problems are not solved at all with an apology.
they didn't even acknowledge most problems in their own "apology".... so why do you wonder the community still is pretty vocal about this?
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On April 24 2013 01:02 Doc.Rivers wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 00:43 govie wrote:Regarding the WCS-NA qualifiers, i have made a 2polls, which could reflect the opinion of the community. Poll: Does the WCS-NA Qualifiers invalidate the WCS-tournament?Yes (111) 83% No (23) 17% 134 total votes Your vote: Does the WCS-NA Qualifiers invalidate the WCS-tournament? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
Poll: In which way should MLG try to undo what has been doneOrganise WCS-NA qualifiers again. (81) 58% Let comm play his final match (no extra actions required) (32) 23% In another way not defined above (20) 14% None of the above (or not MLG fault) (6) 4% 139 total votes Your vote: In which way should MLG try to undo what has been done (Vote): Organise WCS-NA qualifiers again.
(Vote): Let comm play his final match (no extra actions required)
(Vote): In another way not defined above
(Vote): None of the above (or not MLG fault)
Lol @ how counterproductive your first poll is. Some really positive contribution to the community there bud.
A poll, is productive in the way it reflects the opinion of a large group of people. It bundles many thoughts and feelings which it converts to percentages. I think this poll is the most constructive post in this whole god damn topic.
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On April 24 2013 01:02 Doc.Rivers wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 00:43 govie wrote:Regarding the WCS-NA qualifiers, i have made a 2polls, which could reflect the opinion of the community. Poll: Does the WCS-NA Qualifiers invalidate the WCS-tournament?Yes (111) 83% No (23) 17% 134 total votes Your vote: Does the WCS-NA Qualifiers invalidate the WCS-tournament? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
Poll: In which way should MLG try to undo what has been doneOrganise WCS-NA qualifiers again. (81) 58% Let comm play his final match (no extra actions required) (32) 23% In another way not defined above (20) 14% None of the above (or not MLG fault) (6) 4% 139 total votes Your vote: In which way should MLG try to undo what has been done (Vote): Organise WCS-NA qualifiers again.
(Vote): Let comm play his final match (no extra actions required)
(Vote): In another way not defined above
(Vote): None of the above (or not MLG fault)
Lol @ how counterproductive your first poll is. Some really positive contribution to the community there bud.
![[image loading]](http://www.celticstown.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/doc-rivers-toughness.jpg)
its just an opinion poll.
counterproductive would be in censoring this kind of activity.
shouldn't you be working on some new defensive schemes rather than spending time posting on this forum during the playoffs man.
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Also weird MLG saying they will do better next time, but there is no next PremierLeague Qualifier....
ChallengerQualifier is something totally different, so they fucked over many regions/pros in a once in a lifetime chance for them.
Still not gettingt to the core of the problems and not even admitting them in the apology is a total disaster.
If MLG doesnt comepensate these players/teams "this season", i dont see how u could ever support them again in doing online event stuff.
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Does this feel incredibly fake and forced to anyone else?
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I'm sure all the entities involved are doing their best to put together something so complicated in very little time, they will improve as they always do.
Can't believe all the hate and entitlement over someone else's job that provides you with free content to watch and those calling for people to get fired, you serious? really?
In the end i'm not a player nor an investor into the companies involved and only count for the 1 view as all of you which doesn't give me any goddam right whatsoever to be so mean to people the other side of the internet connection, so feel free to make a bloody game, make bloody tournaments and create companies which employ people since you all obviously better and have greater commitment.
Or just watch something else and GG.
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I'm sure that the next seasons will run much smoother than this one. MLG generally comes through and it IS hard to put together something like this on such short notice.
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On April 24 2013 02:56 RiSkysc2 wrote:
Does this feel incredibly fake and forced to anyone else?
^^
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On April 23 2013 16:40 Targe wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2013 16:36 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 23 2013 16:34 Targe wrote:
Good apology, he gave the hint that future tournaments will be better run, thank God. I really find it hard to believe that the community gets out its pitchforks and never forgets about certain stuff, but a qualifier that screws over players which is the most important thing and secondly fucked up the viewers gets away with an apology? Seriously I am in disbelief. Its not like they made a bad call on a rematch situation. They basically fucked over Comm and other peoples career / chances of winning big money. Jim for example would probably been able to qualify if given the chance, but now he has to wait for a whole year? :X Naruto, I'm one to never arm my pitchfork, even in the threads which clearly call for it, sure it was a complete shitfest but that obviously wasn't their intention, I'd much rather we just move on to the next event and making sure this never happens again. Show nested quote +On April 23 2013 16:40 Fluffboll wrote:On April 23 2013 16:36 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 23 2013 16:34 Targe wrote:
Good apology, he gave the hint that future tournaments will be better run, thank God. I really find it hard to believe that the community gets out its pitchforks and never forgets about certain stuff, but a qualifier that screws over players which is the most important thing and secondly fucked up the viewers gets away with an apology? Seriously I am in disbelief. Its not like they made a bad call on a rematch situation. They basically fucked over Comm and other peoples career / chances of winning big money. Jim for example would probably been able to qualify if given the chance, but now he has to wait for a whole year? :X Some people swallow everything they see and read at face value unwilling (or incapable?) of thinking even one step further on their own. Hacking/cheating accussations are more then enough proof of this behavior in people, not suprising that this "apology" is treated any different by these people. Passive aggressive much? :/
With your mindset, eSports won't grow for a very long time.
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I don't understand why he has to make a public apology to the community ?
The community is responsible for this for being up in arms against a 10$ fee to avoid this kind of shit altogether, the responsible thing to do is give some form of compensation to the progamers and an apology to the team managers.
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It is totally unacceptable for the Chinese players to not have some other avenue for qualifying. Hell, at this point I'd say add them to the final bracket. Much better we be overly generous in an unfair situation, rather than stingy with qualifications.
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How long have they been doing this and still making mistakes? Look at RIOT and their LCS, MLG could take some lessons.
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I don't get all the comments that link the mistakes at the WCS qualifier to time constraints, Blizzard "rushing" the production, etc.
First, I don't see how MLG worked under any time constraint that was more severe than that of their Korean and European counterparts who - needless to say - didn't mess things up half as badly.
Second, I see no reason to believe that MLG was forced to host WCS. Instead, I imagine that during the planning for the whole WCS, there must have been a dialogue that went something like "Blizzard: Who can organize the WCS qualifiers in April? - MLG: Us."
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On April 24 2013 01:51 JimmyJRaynor wrote:as a way to compare WCS 2012 with WCS 2013 let's count the number of official apologies people can make excuses for Blizzard and point fingers at GSL for changing their prize pool... point fingers at ESL for getting the check in times messed up... and point fingers at MLG for this recent debacle.. but the common thread is .. its Blizzard's baby.... its their badly rushed to market WCS ... and ultimately, a great WCS would help future SC2 sales... and a horrible WCS event won't help future SC2 sales. so ultimately, Blizzard will pay the highest price for this.. because the big money maker in this entire machinery is selling copies of Starcraft. keep the excuses for Blizzard coming though.. its entertaining to twist my mind into a pretzel of rationalizations... trying to follow the logic of these great excuses.
Blizzard is a company with that turns yearly profit equal to the GDP of a very small country, it's a multi billion dollar company with thousand of employers.
Some of the "heads" of starcraft have worked on so many legendary games that by now you can likely assume starcraft is more of a passion project for some of them and for blizzard as a whole a 1 million dollar investment in this tournament is not even a noticeable change in the income charts.
If it actually works, aka if the community gets behind it, blizzard might invest a good portion of their marketing budget into this ( budget that for a franchise that pulls in a hundred or more millions annually is likely to be in the dozens of millions )
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On April 24 2013 03:50 Aterons_toss wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 01:51 JimmyJRaynor wrote:as a way to compare WCS 2012 with WCS 2013 let's count the number of official apologies people can make excuses for Blizzard and point fingers at GSL for changing their prize pool... point fingers at ESL for getting the check in times messed up... and point fingers at MLG for this recent debacle.. but the common thread is .. its Blizzard's baby.... its their badly rushed to market WCS ... and ultimately, a great WCS would help future SC2 sales... and a horrible WCS event won't help future SC2 sales. so ultimately, Blizzard will pay the highest price for this.. because the big money maker in this entire machinery is selling copies of Starcraft. keep the excuses for Blizzard coming though.. its entertaining to twist my mind into a pretzel of rationalizations... trying to follow the logic of these great excuses. Blizzard is a company with that turns yearly profit equal to the GDP of a very small country, it's a multi billion dollar company with thousand of employers. Some of the "heads" of starcraft have worked on so many legendary games that by now you can likely assume starcraft is more of a passion project for some of them and for blizzard as a whole a 1 million dollar investment in this tournament is not even a noticeable change in the income charts. If it actually works, aka if the community gets behind it, blizzard might invest a good portion of their marketing budget into this ( budget that for a franchise that pulls in a hundred or more millions annually is likely to be in the dozens of millions )
the problem is they are running around on a PR tour making comments like "we are told SC is bigger than the NHL".
a 1 million dollar (or even 10 million dollar ) investment won't make the WCS better than the NHL's Stanley Cup playoffs... sry guys.
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Starcraft 2 community: where the expectations are higher than Snoop Dog at Bonaroo.
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EPT
