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Biggest mistake on their part was not managing SC2 fans expectations. Same thing goes for Blizzard. So much haphazard decision-making, like deciding to go bane-all without scouting your terran opponent.
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On April 24 2013 03:40 Poffel wrote:
I don't get all the comments that link the mistakes at the WCS qualifier to time constraints, Blizzard "rushing" the production, etc.
First, I don't see how MLG worked under any time constraint that was more severe than that of their Korean and European counterparts who - needless to say - didn't mess things up half as badly.
Second, I see no reason to believe that MLG was forced to host WCS. Instead, I imagine that during the planning for the whole WCS, there must have been a dialogue that went something like "Blizzard: Who can organize the WCS qualifiers in April? - MLG: Us."
A lot of the mistakes people rant about in this thread happened for the EU qualifier as well and Korea didn't have to change much at all so time constraint was not as much of an issue there. MLG may have screwed up more but that doesn't mean the whole thing wasn't partly caused by the rushed production. Several known community figures have expressed similar concerns so I don't see why you seem to think you know better. And of course MLG wasn't forced, and even if they were it wouldn't change the point.
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On April 24 2013 03:55 DueSs wrote:
Starcraft 2 community: where the expectations are higher than Snoop Dog at Bonaroo.
it is up to Blizzard to manage expectations..
quotes like this do not help...
Itzik Ben-Bassat: "By numbers, StarCraft is bigger than the NHL"
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On April 24 2013 00:16 fleeze wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 00:10 Sienionelain wrote:On April 23 2013 23:55 fleeze wrote:On April 23 2013 23:48 Sienionelain wrote:On April 23 2013 23:20 fleeze wrote:On April 23 2013 23:14 digmouse wrote:On April 23 2013 21:19 syllogism wrote:
Acertos: I already lambasted the decision not to invite top chinese players in the original thread. Chinese fans and the players have every right to be pissed at MLG*. The context of that post is different. It is unfortunate that the game isn't big enough/financially successful enough to have vibrant scenes in every region of the world. That is the reason chinese players are struggling to make a career out of the game right now, not because they MLG messed up these qualifiers. I did not defend MLG or their decisions, other than disqualifying a player for breaking an important rule at any point. The vast majority of the complaints are accurate and on the point. This does mean the community is offering useful, mature criticism and keeping things in context. The post was directed at the poor quality of criticism and the sense of entitlement many members of SC2 communities have even though they are getting all their content for free (obviously people who spend money in the scene are different).
*but at the same time the fans should keep in mind that it's likely that few chinese fans are interested in spending money on MLG events. Why should MLG care about their views? Don't pretend like you have a lot of knowledge about the Chinese market and community, your statement directly insulted me as a Chinese Starcraft player and spectator. his statement was just plain racist. even worth he tried to explain the racism with money. haha. How come his statement is racist? He says that the chinese people don't have much of a sc2 scene and therefore the players have hard time competing. There is no indication of racism there. MLG shouldn't care about chinese viewers, because they are worth no money. this statement is so wrong in so many ways. From financial viewpoint they have no interest in chinese viewers if they are not worth them money. That is how companies work. If he said they shouldn't care about chinese viewers because they are chinese it could be interpreted as racist. However it is not the case and I still see no racism in his original statement. WCS is sponsored by BLIZZARD. and they explicitly stated they want an OPEN QUALIFIER. the MLG interpretation of OPEN is like total crap. they thought it meant gold and platinum players, when blizzard was obviously aiming for equal rights for different countries.
So? I was discussing your claims of a racist comment.
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Why do people keep mentioning the 'fee' as a solution (beside being against the 'terms' of an open WCS).
Imagine this scenario:
Hyun ask if he can play, gets ok
pays $10
Gets DQ'ed
Gets revived
Gets DQ'ed
And now there are even money involved? (not just for him, but also those knocked out by him)
tl;dr The uproar is still really about the treatment of the chinese, and Comm in particular...
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On April 24 2013 04:02 nihlon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 03:40 Poffel wrote:
I don't get all the comments that link the mistakes at the WCS qualifier to time constraints, Blizzard "rushing" the production, etc.
First, I don't see how MLG worked under any time constraint that was more severe than that of their Korean and European counterparts who - needless to say - didn't mess things up half as badly.
Second, I see no reason to believe that MLG was forced to host WCS. Instead, I imagine that during the planning for the whole WCS, there must have been a dialogue that went something like "Blizzard: Who can organize the WCS qualifiers in April? - MLG: Us." A lot of the mistakes people rant about in this thread happened for the EU qualifier as well and Korea didn't have to change much at all so time constraint was not as much of an issue there. MLG may have screwed up more but that doesn't mean the whole thing wasn't partly caused by the rushed production. Several known community figures have expressed similar concerns so I don't see why you seem to think you know better. And of course MLG wasn't forced, and even if they were it wouldn't change the point.
Either I was extremely unclear in my post, or we are working under completely different premises (or maybe both). First, I didn't meant to imply that I know better... and, frankly, it takes a lot of effort to take that away from sentences that start with "I don't get", "I don't see how", and "I see no reason" respectively.
That aside, I agree with you that Korea didn't have to change much to accommodate for WCS; but that's hardly the case in Europe. Now - this is where we differ substantially - even though ESL was struggling as well and WCS Europe definitely had its problems, I think their production was leaps and bounds ahead of WCS America. Since ESL and MLG worked under very similar time constraints, I still don't understand how time constraints could be the reason for this difference in production quality.
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
On April 24 2013 03:27 Shinta) wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2013 16:40 Targe wrote:On April 23 2013 16:36 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 23 2013 16:34 Targe wrote:
Good apology, he gave the hint that future tournaments will be better run, thank God. I really find it hard to believe that the community gets out its pitchforks and never forgets about certain stuff, but a qualifier that screws over players which is the most important thing and secondly fucked up the viewers gets away with an apology? Seriously I am in disbelief. Its not like they made a bad call on a rematch situation. They basically fucked over Comm and other peoples career / chances of winning big money. Jim for example would probably been able to qualify if given the chance, but now he has to wait for a whole year? :X Naruto, I'm one to never arm my pitchfork, even in the threads which clearly call for it, sure it was a complete shitfest but that obviously wasn't their intention, I'd much rather we just move on to the next event and making sure this never happens again. On April 23 2013 16:40 Fluffboll wrote:On April 23 2013 16:36 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 23 2013 16:34 Targe wrote:
Good apology, he gave the hint that future tournaments will be better run, thank God. I really find it hard to believe that the community gets out its pitchforks and never forgets about certain stuff, but a qualifier that screws over players which is the most important thing and secondly fucked up the viewers gets away with an apology? Seriously I am in disbelief. Its not like they made a bad call on a rematch situation. They basically fucked over Comm and other peoples career / chances of winning big money. Jim for example would probably been able to qualify if given the chance, but now he has to wait for a whole year? :X Some people swallow everything they see and read at face value unwilling (or incapable?) of thinking even one step further on their own. Hacking/cheating accussations are more then enough proof of this behavior in people, not suprising that this "apology" is treated any different by these people. Passive aggressive much? :/ With your mindset, eSports won't grow for a very long time.
How? I'm saying don't call for people being fired, people's reputations being ruined or anything like that, stuff like that happening is highly detrimental to the esports scene.
Not sure how my non pitchfork-wielding opinion would inhibit the scene's growth.
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On April 24 2013 02:59 Gendo wrote:
I'm sure all the entities involved are doing their best to put together something so complicated in very little time, they will improve as they always do.
Can't believe all the hate and entitlement over someone else's job that provides you with free content to watch and those calling for people to get fired, you serious? really?
In the end i'm not a player nor an investor into the companies involved and only count for the 1 view as all of you which doesn't give me any goddam right whatsoever to be so mean to people the other side of the internet connection, so feel free to make a bloody game, make bloody tournaments and create companies which employ people since you all obviously better and have greater commitment.
Or just watch something else and GG.
It's not free content when they get ad revenue from viewers, in addition to the 18-20 dollar fee each participate paid to enter the WCS NA qualifier which was badly run. WIll those people who were hard done by (losing to hackers) be compensated/refunded somehow?
The thing about WCS NA is that there is another organisation (NASL) which should've have been included in the plans to broadcast WCS NA. If blizzard or indeed mlg knew that the production value of the WCS NA would suffer due to lack of funds/whatever, then they should have asked NASL to come help out. The community is here to help if they bothered asking.
Unfortunately there have been so many shambolic errors in this WCS NA qualifier it beggers belief!
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Canada16217 Posts
On April 24 2013 05:42 Xercen wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 02:59 Gendo wrote:
I'm sure all the entities involved are doing their best to put together something so complicated in very little time, they will improve as they always do.
Can't believe all the hate and entitlement over someone else's job that provides you with free content to watch and those calling for people to get fired, you serious? really?
In the end i'm not a player nor an investor into the companies involved and only count for the 1 view as all of you which doesn't give me any goddam right whatsoever to be so mean to people the other side of the internet connection, so feel free to make a bloody game, make bloody tournaments and create companies which employ people since you all obviously better and have greater commitment.
Or just watch something else and GG. It's not free content when they get ad revenue from viewers, in addition to the 18-20 dollar fee each participate paid to enter the WCS NA qualifier which was badly run. WIll those people who were hard done by (losing to hackers) be compensated/refunded somehow? The thing about WCS NA is that there is another organisation (NASL) which should've have been included in the plans to broadcast WCS NA. If blizzard or indeed mlg knew that the production value of the WCS NA would suffer due to lack of funds/whatever, then they should have asked NASL to come help out. The community is here to help if they bothered asking. Unfortunately there have been so many shambolic errors in this WCS NA qualifier it beggers belief!
It's free content,as a viewer it costs you nothing to watch. They got rid of the fee because people complained about it.
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On April 24 2013 05:45 NovemberstOrm wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 05:42 Xercen wrote:On April 24 2013 02:59 Gendo wrote:
I'm sure all the entities involved are doing their best to put together something so complicated in very little time, they will improve as they always do.
Can't believe all the hate and entitlement over someone else's job that provides you with free content to watch and those calling for people to get fired, you serious? really?
In the end i'm not a player nor an investor into the companies involved and only count for the 1 view as all of you which doesn't give me any goddam right whatsoever to be so mean to people the other side of the internet connection, so feel free to make a bloody game, make bloody tournaments and create companies which employ people since you all obviously better and have greater commitment.
Or just watch something else and GG. It's not free content when they get ad revenue from viewers, in addition to the 18-20 dollar fee each participate paid to enter the WCS NA qualifier which was badly run. WIll those people who were hard done by (losing to hackers) be compensated/refunded somehow? The thing about WCS NA is that there is another organisation (NASL) which should've have been included in the plans to broadcast WCS NA. If blizzard or indeed mlg knew that the production value of the WCS NA would suffer due to lack of funds/whatever, then they should have asked NASL to come help out. The community is here to help if they bothered asking. Unfortunately there have been so many shambolic errors in this WCS NA qualifier it beggers belief! It's free content,as a viewer it costs you nothing to watch. They got rid of the fee because people complained about it.
Regardless, if they had an issue with production values becoming worse due to limiting income, then why not ask blizzard to outsource it to NASL instead who has a plethora of volunteers and can do a very good job as recent history has shown.
Why make a complete mess of what was supposed to be a turning point in sc2 history?
There is no point saying 'oh it's free, therefore if it's a complete mess it's ok'. No it's not ok because of the manner of his apology and because NASL exists.
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Canada16217 Posts
On April 24 2013 05:55 Xercen wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 05:45 NovemberstOrm wrote:On April 24 2013 05:42 Xercen wrote:On April 24 2013 02:59 Gendo wrote:
I'm sure all the entities involved are doing their best to put together something so complicated in very little time, they will improve as they always do.
Can't believe all the hate and entitlement over someone else's job that provides you with free content to watch and those calling for people to get fired, you serious? really?
In the end i'm not a player nor an investor into the companies involved and only count for the 1 view as all of you which doesn't give me any goddam right whatsoever to be so mean to people the other side of the internet connection, so feel free to make a bloody game, make bloody tournaments and create companies which employ people since you all obviously better and have greater commitment.
Or just watch something else and GG. It's not free content when they get ad revenue from viewers, in addition to the 18-20 dollar fee each participate paid to enter the WCS NA qualifier which was badly run. WIll those people who were hard done by (losing to hackers) be compensated/refunded somehow? The thing about WCS NA is that there is another organisation (NASL) which should've have been included in the plans to broadcast WCS NA. If blizzard or indeed mlg knew that the production value of the WCS NA would suffer due to lack of funds/whatever, then they should have asked NASL to come help out. The community is here to help if they bothered asking. Unfortunately there have been so many shambolic errors in this WCS NA qualifier it beggers belief! It's free content,as a viewer it costs you nothing to watch. They got rid of the fee because people complained about it. Regardless, if they had an issue with production values becoming worse due to limiting income, then why not ask blizzard to outsource it to NASL instead who has a plethora of volunteers and can do a very good job as recent history has shown. Why make a complete mess of what was supposed to be a turning point in sc2 history? There is no point saying 'oh it's free, therefore if it's a complete mess it's ok'. No it's not ok because of the manner of his apology and because NASL exists.
I'm not saying that. All I'm saying is that it's free.
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On April 24 2013 02:41 semmeL wrote:
Also weird MLG saying they will do better next time, but there is no next PremierLeague Qualifier....
ChallengerQualifier is something totally different, so they fucked over many regions/pros in a once in a lifetime chance for them.
That's right. Hundreds, nay, thousands of people have had their one and only opportunity in their whole entire lives stolen from them from evil people who don't give a damn about eSports or anyone or anything.
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On April 24 2013 05:18 Targe wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 03:27 Shinta) wrote:On April 23 2013 16:40 Targe wrote:On April 23 2013 16:36 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 23 2013 16:34 Targe wrote:
Good apology, he gave the hint that future tournaments will be better run, thank God. I really find it hard to believe that the community gets out its pitchforks and never forgets about certain stuff, but a qualifier that screws over players which is the most important thing and secondly fucked up the viewers gets away with an apology? Seriously I am in disbelief. Its not like they made a bad call on a rematch situation. They basically fucked over Comm and other peoples career / chances of winning big money. Jim for example would probably been able to qualify if given the chance, but now he has to wait for a whole year? :X Naruto, I'm one to never arm my pitchfork, even in the threads which clearly call for it, sure it was a complete shitfest but that obviously wasn't their intention, I'd much rather we just move on to the next event and making sure this never happens again. On April 23 2013 16:40 Fluffboll wrote:On April 23 2013 16:36 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 23 2013 16:34 Targe wrote:
Good apology, he gave the hint that future tournaments will be better run, thank God. I really find it hard to believe that the community gets out its pitchforks and never forgets about certain stuff, but a qualifier that screws over players which is the most important thing and secondly fucked up the viewers gets away with an apology? Seriously I am in disbelief. Its not like they made a bad call on a rematch situation. They basically fucked over Comm and other peoples career / chances of winning big money. Jim for example would probably been able to qualify if given the chance, but now he has to wait for a whole year? :X Some people swallow everything they see and read at face value unwilling (or incapable?) of thinking even one step further on their own. Hacking/cheating accussations are more then enough proof of this behavior in people, not suprising that this "apology" is treated any different by these people. Passive aggressive much? :/ With your mindset, eSports won't grow for a very long time. How? I'm saying don't call for people being fired, people's reputations being ruined or anything like that, stuff like that happening is highly detrimental to the esports scene. Not sure how my non pitchfork-wielding opinion would inhibit the scene's growth.
I don't know what or why but somehow it always seems like when MLG has ability to make choices they always start off making the wrong one. I find it very interesting in a way how they manage to constantly make the wrong choice then have to apologize and then fix it later next time. They are very good at fixing there mistakes but its almost like they were so focused on the league play that they overlooked the qualifiers and they were a disaster because of it.
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The tweet Sundance posted about the throwing money into a crowd really shows his arrogance. It's like he doesn't think the audience knows what it wants, when it's actually pretty simple. People wanted a better structured qualifier that was consistent in rule enforcement as well as showcased the best of the best who signed up (NOT people that signed up just because they could and end up being in gold/platinum/diamond league). They blame time constraints all they want, but at the end of the day, there were problems that were there because of incompetence of administration, which isn't really a direct consequence of being tight on time. Given more time, they would have probably still made the same exact mistakes come game time. It's because their rules would not have changed and their admins would still be incompetent.
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On April 24 2013 03:54 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 03:50 Aterons_toss wrote:On April 24 2013 01:51 JimmyJRaynor wrote:as a way to compare WCS 2012 with WCS 2013 let's count the number of official apologies  people can make excuses for Blizzard and point fingers at GSL for changing their prize pool... point fingers at ESL for getting the check in times messed up... and point fingers at MLG for this recent debacle.. but the common thread is .. its Blizzard's baby.... its their badly rushed to market WCS ... and ultimately, a great WCS would help future SC2 sales... and a horrible WCS event won't help future SC2 sales. so ultimately, Blizzard will pay the highest price for this.. because the big money maker in this entire machinery is selling copies of Starcraft. keep the excuses for Blizzard coming though.. its entertaining to twist my mind into a pretzel of rationalizations... trying to follow the logic of these great excuses. Blizzard is a company with that turns yearly profit equal to the GDP of a very small country, it's a multi billion dollar company with thousand of employers. Some of the "heads" of starcraft have worked on so many legendary games that by now you can likely assume starcraft is more of a passion project for some of them and for blizzard as a whole a 1 million dollar investment in this tournament is not even a noticeable change in the income charts. If it actually works, aka if the community gets behind it, blizzard might invest a good portion of their marketing budget into this ( budget that for a franchise that pulls in a hundred or more millions annually is likely to be in the dozens of millions ) the problem is they are running around on a PR tour making comments like "we are told SC is bigger than the NHL". a 1 million dollar (or even 10 million dollar ) investment won't make the WCS better than the NHL's Stanley Cup playoffs... sry guys.
Yeah, that was a pretty bone-headed comment by Mr. Itzik Ben-Bassat.
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I just want to note for those people who say, "We don't like what MLG does, but we have to support e-sports."
If most people take this attitude, MLG will never improve. People and especially corporations are very much immune to change in thoughts. If there's no huge backlash, this type of stuff will happen again and again. There will always be issues when organizing large events. And it's up to the organizers to minimize the issues through preparation and hard work and ensuring enough man-power to deal with them. Even if MLG fixes the problems of this qualifier, and I'm generously including the problems they're not even addressing, new problems will arise later and there will still be screwups. So you'll never have a well-organized event.
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When will the apology for this crappy apology be released? You can tell its a crap apology with a simple text search for words like china, chinese, DQ, disqualified, comm, reinstated, etc. There was intentionally no acknowledgement of the primary issue people had. You're supposed to look at this and see him saying sorry and not realize not only did they not mention the key issues people had but they have no intention of addressing them. With all the threads and comments there is no way they missed the real outrage and misunderstood, they just don't care.
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On April 24 2013 05:18 Targe wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 03:27 Shinta) wrote:On April 23 2013 16:40 Targe wrote:On April 23 2013 16:36 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 23 2013 16:34 Targe wrote:
Good apology, he gave the hint that future tournaments will be better run, thank God. I really find it hard to believe that the community gets out its pitchforks and never forgets about certain stuff, but a qualifier that screws over players which is the most important thing and secondly fucked up the viewers gets away with an apology? Seriously I am in disbelief. Its not like they made a bad call on a rematch situation. They basically fucked over Comm and other peoples career / chances of winning big money. Jim for example would probably been able to qualify if given the chance, but now he has to wait for a whole year? :X Naruto, I'm one to never arm my pitchfork, even in the threads which clearly call for it, sure it was a complete shitfest but that obviously wasn't their intention, I'd much rather we just move on to the next event and making sure this never happens again. On April 23 2013 16:40 Fluffboll wrote:On April 23 2013 16:36 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 23 2013 16:34 Targe wrote:
Good apology, he gave the hint that future tournaments will be better run, thank God. I really find it hard to believe that the community gets out its pitchforks and never forgets about certain stuff, but a qualifier that screws over players which is the most important thing and secondly fucked up the viewers gets away with an apology? Seriously I am in disbelief. Its not like they made a bad call on a rematch situation. They basically fucked over Comm and other peoples career / chances of winning big money. Jim for example would probably been able to qualify if given the chance, but now he has to wait for a whole year? :X Some people swallow everything they see and read at face value unwilling (or incapable?) of thinking even one step further on their own. Hacking/cheating accussations are more then enough proof of this behavior in people, not suprising that this "apology" is treated any different by these people. Passive aggressive much? :/ With your mindset, eSports won't grow for a very long time. How? I'm saying don't call for people being fired, people's reputations being ruined or anything like that, stuff like that happening is highly detrimental to the esports scene. Not sure how my non pitchfork-wielding opinion would inhibit the scene's growth.
It's quite simple. You leave failures in charge, you continually see failure as the outcome.
I'm not saying we need to get everyone fired, I'm saying you need to use your words and express the communities beliefs. Otherwise, you'll have bad people leading bad organizations.
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On April 24 2013 12:26 baubo wrote:
I just want to note for those people who say, "We don't like what MLG does, but we have to support e-sports."
If most people take this attitude, MLG will never improve. People and especially corporations are very much immune to change in thoughts.
Completely clueless.
I'll avoid the larger stupidity of your statement as I won't get into politics around here any more but MLG has been changing and trying new things for all the years I've paid attention to them and often end up getting bit by following the advice of the mob, such as removing the token entry fee that lead to players who had no shot of winning anything taking spots from more deserving players.
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EPT
