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scypio
Poland2127 Posts
I really enjoyed the number of streams available during WCS EU and being able to find something interesting to watch at any given point. It really sucks that we didn't get all the community casters rallying around the WCS qualifier, highlighting different games and keeping the whole thing alive and kicking. Instead we got replays and a ton of skyline. The WCS should have community coverage for the qualifiers, the cake is too big for one company to eat. | ||
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fleeze
Germany895 Posts
On April 24 2013 00:03 Xercen wrote: No he didn't say they aren't worth any money. He said they don't spend money into mlg. Everybody knows that chinese people are incredibly rich now. Whenever i go shopping, i see chinese signs because chinese people are so rich now that every single shop in london wants their money. The stereotype used to be the poor chinese peasant but now it's the rich chinese shopper chinese people spending money on MLG events is as possible as europeans or koreans spending money on MLG events. those are all not very likely since who goes to MLG events from different continents? (i don't count PPV online crap). on the other hand: if they welcomed the chinese their stream viewing numbers could go up quite a lot. giving them MORE money in return. especially since WCS is blizzard funded and MLG money doesn't even come into play here. at least not the way he described it. obviously MLG tried to cut its own costs on staff as much as possible to make more revenue which resulted in this horrendous qualifier. either way his statement makes no sense and is a direct insult to chinese viewers. On April 24 2013 00:10 Sienionelain wrote: From financial viewpoint they have no interest in chinese viewers if they are not worth them money. That is how companies work. If he said they shouldn't care about chinese viewers because they are chinese it could be interpreted as racist. However it is not the case and I still see no racism in his original statement. WCS is sponsored by BLIZZARD. and they explicitly stated they want an OPEN QUALIFIER. the MLG interpretation of OPEN is like total crap. they thought it meant gold and platinum players, when blizzard was obviously aiming for equal rights for different countries. | ||
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Dracid
United States280 Posts
On April 23 2013 23:49 Doc.Rivers wrote: MLG screwed up but they didn't kill any children. I'm satisfied with the apology and trust that future online MLG tourneys will not have the same problems. Ultimately, the end results of WCS NA S1 probably won't be affected by this. All the spots with a worthwhile amount of points will be taken by Koreans. Sorry that 2 or 3 Chinese pros missed out on their .1% chance to qualify but it doesn't make the tournament a farce. I'll bet they don't even know how to get visas lol. Ultimately this qualifier won't have any lasting damaging affect on the scene.., that much is pretty obvious. .1% chance to qualify? Comm aside, Top and Macsed were both 1 game away from qualifying, and Macsed 2-0d Sage and JYP to get there as well as taking a game off of Oz. XY is of a comparable skill level, and Jim is arguably even better than them. This is exactly why I'm pissed actually. The Chinese scene is pretty isolated compared to the rest of the world, so you rarely see Chinese players in tournaments and nobody really knows who they are. They practice though, they practice hard. The Koreans are of course still better, but skill-wise they're up there with top players from the rest of the world. So they've got good players, but very few opportunities to show that they're good, leading to people like Doc.Rivers giving them a .1% chance to qualify despite 3 of the top 12 being Chinese. People complain about Koreans taking over WCS NA but you've still got 16 seeded slots for the premier league, the Chinese got ZERO. WCS China is gone, WCS Korea is scary and requires you to enter the GSL, and China to EU is laggy, so WCS NA more or less becomes China's region for WCS. Opportunities for top Chinese players to compete with the rest of the world are fairly rare to begin with, if that opportunity gets denied by incompetent tournament organization then of course people are going to be upset. Saying you'll "fix it next time" isn't much of a consolation when MLG's the ones who messed up and every WCS event counts towards the grand finals. | ||
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SupLilSon
Malaysia4123 Posts
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Adila
United States874 Posts
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Velr
Switzerland10720 Posts
On April 23 2013 23:55 fleeze wrote: WCS is an OPEN tournament, not a LOCAL one. MLG shouldn't care about chinese viewers, because they are worth no money. this statement is so wrong in so many ways. Well... It seems to "suit" MLG's general business model and approach to e-sport in general. | ||
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Undead1993
Germany17651 Posts
So, i will post my opinion and get out of here. First of all, I mostly agree with sase and typenaruto. If there will be no invites for the chinese whatsoever, i don't care if blizzard does this or mlg or esl or someone else, i will be very disappointed with all of these organisations. Mostly with mlg though. this statement means little, it means they recognized our anger towards them, but it doesn't mean that they actually give something about the fate of the chinese players and the players who joined this bracket just to get knocked out by hackers/hyun. Most of the reasons, why this was a disaster mentioned in the apology, were very obvious, for example "the demand to enter the WCS Qualifier was much higher than we had anticipated". I can only laugh about this. all in all, i like that they did a statement, but how this apology was structured after such a weekend is just absurd. in the next few days, I demand invites for the chinese players, i demand mlg to directly say sorry to the chinese players, and the players who got knocked out by this hacker (why do such people exist anyways, I don't get it, as idra yesterday said "such a waste of life"). finally, I demand mlg admins that are not fully retarded. someone has to do something, has to act not just talk, this isn't very serious, the apology isn't serious, if someone takes esports serious, he should start acting, and not talking and posting this childish apology. hf gl. | ||
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fleeze
Germany895 Posts
On April 24 2013 00:22 Velr wrote: Well... It seems to "suit" MLG's general business model and approach to e-sport in general. sad but true. i hope blizzard sues them for violating the "OPEN" part of the WCS qualifier contract. i'm still laughing about the definition of OPEN on MLGs side: include bronze and platinum, exclude chinese, limit to 512 players. ESL on the other hand tried to make it as "open" as possible. i don't think MLG should get away with this excuse. | ||
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Dhays9
United States51 Posts
On April 24 2013 00:22 Undead1993 wrote: Well, to discuss here with the strange opinions of some people has no sense. So, i will post my opinion and get out of here. First of all, I mostly agree with sase and typenaruto. If there will be no invites for the chinese whatsoever, i don't care if blizzard does this or mlg or esl or someone else, i will be very disappointed with all of these organisations. Mostly with mlg though. this statement means little, it means they recognized our anger towards them, but it doesn't mean that they actually give something about the fate of the chinese players and the players who joined this bracket just to get knocked out by hackers/hyun. Most of the reasons, why this was a disaster mentioned in the apology, were very obvious, for example "the demand to enter the WCS Qualifier was much higher than we had anticipated". I can only laugh about this. all in all, i like that they did a statement, but how this apology was structured after such a weekend is just absurd. in the next few days, I demand invites for the chinese players, i demand mlg to directly say sorry to the chinese players, and the players who got knocked out by this hacker (why do such people exist anyways, I don't get it, as idra yesterday said "such a waste of life"). finally, I demand mlg admins that are not fully retarded. someone has to do something, has to act not just talk, this isn't very serious, the apology isn't serious, if someone takes esports serious, he should start acting, and not talking and posting this childish apology. hf gl. You cannot demand a company to do something for you when they give you a free product. Was a lot of the stuff that happened shitty? Yes it was but to demand a company to something when they gave you a free product is just ridiculous. If you do not like what they do then tune out and watch it support something else and when MLG sees that they cannot sustain a buisness with what they are doing due to people leaving g is when we will truly see change. Not from people shining over and over on an internet forum. As for the definition of open has blizzard specifically said what theirs is or was the decision left to the individual organizer? | ||
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govie
9334 Posts
Poll: Does the WCS-NA Qualifiers invalidate the WCS-tournament? Yes (111) No (23) 134 total votes Your vote: Does the WCS-NA Qualifiers invalidate the WCS-tournament? Poll: In which way should MLG try to undo what has been done Organise WCS-NA qualifiers again. (81) Let comm play his final match (no extra actions required) (32) In another way not defined above (20) None of the above (or not MLG fault) (6) 139 total votes Your vote: In which way should MLG try to undo what has been done (Vote): Organise WCS-NA qualifiers again. | ||
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Mortal
2943 Posts
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fleeze
Germany895 Posts
On April 24 2013 00:39 Dhays9 wrote: You cannot demand a company to do something for you when they give you a free product. Was a lot of the stuff that happened shitty? Yes it was but to demand a company to something when they gave you a free product is just ridiculous. If you do not like what they do then tune out and watch it support something else and when MLG sees that they cannot sustain a buisness with what they are doing due to people leaving g is when we will truly see change. Not from people shining over and over on an internet forum. As for the definition of open has blizzard specifically said what theirs is or was the decision left to the individual organizer? we haven't seen the contract and probably won't ever see it. but the descrepancy between ESLs definition and MLGs is pretty obvious. WCS is a blizzard funded product btw. your logic doesn't apply here. | ||
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Dhays9
United States51 Posts
On April 24 2013 00:44 fleeze wrote: we haven't seen the contract and probably won't ever see it. but the descrepancy between ESLs definition and MLGs is pretty obvious. WCS is a blizzard funded product btw. your logic doesn't apply here. How does my logic not apply? We get free product. The only people who can truly demand a change is Blizzard and like you said we do not know what is in the contract between the two. Therefore, my logic still value unless you meant something else. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44372 Posts
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Xercen
United Kingdom375 Posts
On April 24 2013 00:16 Dracid wrote: .1% chance to qualify? Comm aside, Top and Macsed were both 1 game away from qualifying, and Macsed 2-0d Sage and JYP to get there as well as taking a game off of Oz. XY is of a comparable skill level, and Jim is arguably even better than them. This is exactly why I'm pissed actually. The Chinese scene is pretty isolated compared to the rest of the world, so you rarely see Chinese players in tournaments and nobody really knows who they are. They practice though, they practice hard. The Koreans are of course still better, but skill-wise they're up there with top players from the rest of the world. So they've got good players, but very few opportunities to show that they're good, leading to people like Doc.Rivers giving them a .1% chance to qualify despite 3 of the top 12 being Chinese. People complain about Koreans taking over WCS NA but you've still got 16 seeded slots for the premier league, the Chinese got ZERO. WCS China is gone, WCS Korea is scary and requires you to enter the GSL, and China to EU is laggy, so WCS NA more or less becomes China's region for WCS. Opportunities for top Chinese players to compete with the rest of the world are fairly rare to begin with, if that opportunity gets denied by incompetent tournament organization then of course people are going to be upset. Saying you'll "fix it next time" isn't much of a consolation when MLG's the ones who messed up and every WCS event counts towards the grand finals. Ironically, a lot of the fans were intrigued and interested in what the sc2 chinese scene was like, myself included. WCS NA was a good opportunity to showcase chinese sc2 talents on the world stage. Instead of making the most of an ample opportunity, mlg decided to completely and utterly ruin wcs na's reputation in a week's worth of inept bungling that Mr Bean, himself, would be proud of. | ||
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yrt123
Singapore1246 Posts
On April 24 2013 00:05 syllogism wrote: You are reading too much into what I said. I was suggesting that everyone should understand that not every voice of the community means the same to the businesses who run tournaments. In BW the korean tournament organizers did not care about the foreign fans at all. I did not suggest that their top players don't deserve to participate in MLG just like anyone else, although it is very natural if WCS NA prioritizes local players. I agree that DH should invite more swedish players as based on my impressions they are overall better players. I don't think you are going to be very successful at catching me in hypocrisy; I appreciate talent, character and intelligence in players, not their nationalities. Haha you are a funny man. In BW you could go and play in Korea if you are good enough and have the desire to do so. Grrrr and Idra did. I did not follow BW too closely so I cannot say if more did. Also they never intended to make it an international tournament. It was fine to them if foreigners didn't come to their country to play BW. They never intended for them to come anyways. If they wanna come sure you can come but they have absolutely no obligation to cater to the needs of foreigners. Your comparisons you made in your arguments are so laughable I don't even know why I'm trying to reply to you. Its so easy for you to say WCS NA should prioritize local players. What happens to SEA? You mean to say Blizz(the organiser) don't care about them. K so why they invite moonglade, Sen + shit ton of KR into premier. Half of invites are to NA players but still they did not ignore the other regions. Blizz meant for WCS NA and EU to be international tournaments. For KR they know noones gonna go there anyways other than Koreans since its too tough and the structure is already there so they don't wanna change it. I appreciate talent, character and intelligence in players, not their nationalities. Then you should be upset that shitty gold/plat/dia w/e low leaguer NA players got to play in the qualifier instead of pros/semi-pros from China Aus etc. I specify low leaguer NA cuz no shitty player from Eastern part of the world is stay up at 2AM to play in the qualifier to lose in the first round. The suggestion was not based on any stereotypes, but the fact that there are few local tournaments and that is why their sc2 pro scene is struggling. Quite similarly I'm certain that Finnish spectators are, even relatively, a much worse revenue source than north american ones. Even targeting us with useful stream ads is difficult. Another unrelated argument. So? I don't see EU qualifiers screwing over Finnish players or whoever. I understand EU qualis had some issues as well but we're not here to discuss that. Look the thing is Blizz wants WCS to be something that players from every nation has a chance to compete in. Thats why they started this in the first place, so it is not ok to do what you are suggesting. Sure if you just wanna host a tournament and you don't care about player demographics do what you want. If that was the case your argument is valid. But that is not the case here. | ||
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Undead1993
Germany17651 Posts
On April 24 2013 00:49 Dhays9 wrote: How does my logic not apply? We get free product. The only people who can truly demand a change is Blizzard and like you said we do not know what is in the contract between the two. Therefore, my logic still value unless you meant something else. for me, your logic doesnt apply because with "I" i actully mean the whole community. i alone can't demand anything you are quite right on that, but the whole community should demand it, and thats what they care about, the viewers. unfortunately, you didn't quite undestand that. I will for sure not act like "I am kiddie on an inet forum give me what i want!. I hope you understand that right now, and it's not a free product if they get sponsored by people, they get money to do the right thing and they didn't. therefore, there must be consequences. | ||
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Doc.Rivers
United States404 Posts
On April 24 2013 00:16 Dracid wrote: .1% chance to qualify? Comm aside, Top and Macsed were both 1 game away from qualifying, and Macsed 2-0d Sage and JYP to get there as well as taking a game off of Oz. XY is of a comparable skill level, and Jim is arguably even better than them. This is exactly why I'm pissed actually. The Chinese scene is pretty isolated compared to the rest of the world, so you rarely see Chinese players in tournaments and nobody really knows who they are. They practice though, they practice hard. The Koreans are of course still better, but skill-wise they're up there with top players from the rest of the world. So they've got good players, but very few opportunities to show that they're good, leading to people like Doc.Rivers giving them a .1% chance to qualify despite 3 of the top 12 being Chinese. People complain about Koreans taking over WCS NA but you've still got 16 seeded slots for the premier league, the Chinese got ZERO. WCS China is gone, WCS Korea is scary and requires you to enter the GSL, and China to EU is laggy, so WCS NA more or less becomes China's region for WCS. Opportunities for top Chinese players to compete with the rest of the world are fairly rare to begin with, if that opportunity gets denied by incompetent tournament organization then of course people are going to be upset. Saying you'll "fix it next time" isn't much of a consolation when MLG's the ones who messed up and every WCS event counts towards the grand finals. You are right about their chances to qualify and I was incorrect to say .1%. My overall point that MLG didn't kill any children and the scene won't be damaged by this still stands though. Should MLGhave foreseen that Chinese players should've seeded Ito the qualifiers? I didn't see any calls from the community before the event for it happen. This leads me to believe its a hindsight 20/20 kind of thing. Nonetheless it's very unfortunate the Chinese didn't get to play and it was a mistake by MLG. Not much can be done about it now short of red-doing the qualifiers which can't happen. All we can do is wait for MLG to improve in the future, which they will. IMO the tone and quantity of complaints in these threads is not productive and out of proportion to the crime. | ||
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Doc.Rivers
United States404 Posts
On April 24 2013 00:43 govie wrote: Regarding the WCS-NA qualifiers, i have made a 2polls, which could reflect the opinion of the community. Poll: Does the WCS-NA Qualifiers invalidate the WCS-tournament? Yes (111) No (23) 134 total votes Your vote: Does the WCS-NA Qualifiers invalidate the WCS-tournament? Poll: In which way should MLG try to undo what has been done Organise WCS-NA qualifiers again. (81) Let comm play his final match (no extra actions required) (32) In another way not defined above (20) None of the above (or not MLG fault) (6) 139 total votes Your vote: In which way should MLG try to undo what has been done (Vote): Organise WCS-NA qualifiers again. Lol @ how counterproductive your first poll is. Some really positive contribution to the community there bud. | ||
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FromShouri
United States862 Posts
On April 24 2013 00:59 Doc.Rivers wrote: You are right about their chances to qualify and I was incorrect to say .1%. My overall point that MLG didn't kill any children and the scene won't be damaged by this still stands though. Should MLGhave foreseen that Chinese players should've seeded Ito the qualifiers? I didn't see any calls from the community before the event for it happen. This leads me to believe its a hindsight 20/20 kind of thing. Nonetheless it's very unfortunate the Chinese didn't get to play and it was a mistake by MLG. Not much can be done about it now short of red-doing the qualifiers which can't happen. All we can do is wait for MLG to improve in the future, which they will. IMO the tone and quantity of complaints in these threads is not productive and out of proportion to the crime. As a former semi pro player that has played in TL open and many other online tournaments of equal or greater size, your statement is entirely flawed, no one is asking for chinese players to get seeded, just that they be given a far chance like everyone else. But for an MLG official to tell them they have spots, then take those spots away, is entirely unacceptable. Not to mention someone as "experienced" in hosting tournaments as MLG should of fucking known how big this was gonna be and had multiple brackets, instead they fucked up and you can't defend their actions because they are in the wrong here. | ||
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