EPT[G] Mass Mutalisk ZvP for 2013 - Page 5
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dproberts55
15 Posts
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HaVoK12
United States9 Posts
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learning88
United States160 Posts
 ) but I will definitely give this a try. So essentially its 3 hatch standard opener -> mass mutas (skipping roach warren and upgrades initially). I know this was probably covered but how do you deal with mass Stalkers then? One blink under your mass of mutas means death to your air force doesn't it? Or do you just constant non-stop harass and pick off Stalkers since Mutas numbers are too much (so essentially never engage in a head-on fight)? | ||
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schwza
67 Posts
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Moonrisesc
Netherlands38 Posts
As for gas timings, I'm pretty sure the OP includes that he adds 3 at 6:15 and 3 more at 7:45, I personally don't value the clock too much for my gas, but I gues 6:15 and 7:45 is a good benchmark. | ||
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Discarder
Philippines411 Posts
I usually lose 80% of the time versus protoss when I try to go infestors but with mutas, I simply go 4th and 5th base with gas and do anything I want. With this build, I now win 100% versus protoss. I still transition but I free up supply gradually and build a million spines in all attack paths. Usually protoss just dies with a build order mistake or their existence in the game just becomes more longer and painful. Thanks OP for letting me come back to this. Especially now I can't win with infestors being small dick range... | ||
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sunglasseson
United States145 Posts
the best way in my exp of holding the immortal all in has been the threat of counter attack which naturally requires you to pre-produce a large amount of lings and then use the mutas to bust the front blocking unit/sentrys defending and then win since u have more dps then they do and spines to stall in main i do agree transitioning doesnt work as well as people assume. the only way you can transition is if you trade armys and both sides get reduced to virtually nothing and then again why would u ever bother? you shouldnt win against vortex but clutch play wins in basetrades | ||
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Moonrisesc
Netherlands38 Posts
On January 24 2013 18:58 sunglasseson wrote: muta ling has been around for ages but im curious to some of your timings. i dont think u can get 3 base fully saturated before the immortal allin comes. the best way in my exp of holding the immortal all in has been the threat of counter attack which naturally requires you to pre-produce a large amount of lings and then use the mutas to bust the front blocking unit/sentrys defending and then win since u have more dps then they do and spines to stall in main i do agree transitioning doesnt work as well as people assume. the only way you can transition is if you trade armys and both sides get reduced to virtually nothing and then again why would u ever bother? you shouldnt win against vortex but clutch play wins in basetrades You can infact be fully saturated before the immortal allin hits and defend it very easily as long as you give up your 3'd base. You can easily snipe both P's nexi with a muta counter while turtelling behind a wall of spines. The immortal allin is actualy a lot easier to defend with this than with any roach based hold. | ||
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sunglasseson
United States145 Posts
they both didnt even move out till 10:30 or 11mins where as the build should hit at 9:30 10. that being said muta ling counters immortal sentry and i dont think any toss will win if thats the build they are going also droning to saturate a 3rd is "risky" because a good toss is gonna stop you from seeing exactly what hes doing and what happens when they do a 4 gate +1 3rd hatch zerg down idn im far more conservative when i muta ling'd simply because not losing before 10mins usually just means i won. | ||
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Moonrisesc
Netherlands38 Posts
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sunglasseson
United States145 Posts
i just watched sniper lose to 8 gate lol. not everything can be scouted | ||
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Discarder
Philippines411 Posts
I think early gateway attack is a really bad strategy because its so easy to scout. I'd be more concerned scouting gases at the natural and not knowing exactly what is going on, I'd have to send in the two overlords. Deathballing safely on 4 bases is the only way the toss can win. Sometimes they don't win though. | ||
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Moonrisesc
Netherlands38 Posts
On January 24 2013 19:27 sunglasseson wrote: good makes no play here. maps determine ease of scout i just watched sniper lose to 8 gate lol. not everything can be scouted Yes and he definatly lost that because he didn't scout it. | ||
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rEalGuapo
Germany832 Posts
I never understood who not all Zergs do it, if I play against high master Protoss (I am high M EU too) I usually have like 50% winrate, when I play Zerg I use this style and basically never lost. I am pretty sure that this is as broken as one thing can be (hence Protoss was promised the anti-Muta Tempest with HotS). I really think the key is to never engage the Protoss main army. Constant harrasment will sooner or later lead to a lot of Probekills which will force Protoss into a 3Base all in. That means you will just get a million Spines and kill all his buildings. I am pretty sure that only a Stargate opening provides the chance to win against it. I have switched to HotS 2 weeks back and Mutas are way more popular there. If they stay this way anyone who follows this guide will get 100% winrate in ZvP outside of GM league or tournaments.. If anyone gets beaten using this strategy on high level I would be very interested in the replay! But you should not lose because of your own mistakes. Obviously missing an inject here and there or having a few more Overmins than you would like is not that big a deal, however you should not throw away any Mutas or take a fight you lose. Anyway OP, I hate you for making this guide, I also love you for doing it because I hope that someday Protoss will get a good unit vs Mutas. So far only Templars are good but the HotS Mutas just laugh at them with more Movespeed and Regeneration. -_- Also, against Immortal/Sentry all-ins I would rather get the Spines at the top of the main ramp and go for a basetrade, you should either get up like 20 Spines and hold your main or Protoss will ignore your third and you can use those drones to get up 2 more hatches. Then at some point Protoss will be forced to split his army in order to hunt your buildings and protect his own at the same time. Usually you can just kill both armies ezpz. In a basetrade you want to kill buildings in this order 1. Cybercore 2. Forge 3. Nexi 4. Pylons 5. Whatever, you already won! | ||
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MasterDrone
France50 Posts
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schwza
67 Posts
- lair starts at 6:58, finishes at 8:18 - speed starts at 7:15, finishes at 9:05 - spire starts at 8:18, finishes at 9:58 - start 13 mutas at 9:58, finish at 10:31 (48 gas leftover) I don't know what the standard gas timings are with a 5:00 first gas, but I looked at adding 2 more gas at 6:20, then three more gas at 8:00. That gives you - speed starts 6:18, finishes at 8:08 - lair starts 6:58, finishes at 8:18 - spire starts at 8:18, finishes at 9:58 - start 13 mutas at 9:58, finish at 10:31 (58 gas leftover) No idea how much your mineral economy is hurt doing the second build compared to the first. If you want faster (but fewer) muta, you could do gas at 5:00, 2 more gas at 6:20, 3 more gas at 7:55 to get - lair starts 6:18, finishes at 7:38 - speed starts 6:58, finishes at 8:48 - spire starts at 7:38, finishes at 9:18 - start 9 mutas at 9:18, finish at 9:51 (22 gas leftover) | ||
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ALPINA
3791 Posts
On January 20 2013 05:52 Iksf wrote: 2 Stargate. This is the hard counter to this style. Fortunately this build is normally awful, relatively unused and easy to scout. Just abandon this do a roach hydra push or something you’ll be fine. Usually when i am facing 2 stargate phoenix, i am building spores and defending phoenixes for good several minutes while still trying to drone. In best case scenario they kill only 20 drones and when i build my roach + hydra army he already got 2 collossus, so it's pretty much pointless at this point. Am i doing something wrong? :/ | ||
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Iksf
United Kingdom444 Posts
On January 25 2013 03:14 Alpina wrote: Usually when i am facing 2 stargate phoenix, i am building spores and defending phoenixes for good several minutes while still trying to drone. In best case scenario they kill only 20 drones and when i build my roach + hydra army he already got 2 collossus, so it's pretty much pointless at this point. Am i doing something wrong? :/ Your probably not building enough spores Vs phoenix you just want to be pretty liberal with spores, their DPS is awful and only 1 spore per base barely gives protoss any more pause than no spores. Once your safe vs that you can proceed to drone up to about 65 then do a roach max, or add in some hydras if he is going voids. On January 25 2013 01:38 schwza wrote: If you do 3 gas at 6:10 and 3 more gas at 7:45 and you do everything completely perfectly and mine the max possible gas from every geyser of 116.19/minute (which is slightly more than is actually possible for some geysers, according this thread), here is what you can do: - lair starts at 6:58, finishes at 8:18 - speed starts at 7:15, finishes at 9:05 - spire starts at 8:18, finishes at 9:58 - start 13 mutas at 9:58, finish at 10:31 (48 gas leftover) I don't know what the standard gas timings are with a 5:00 first gas, but I looked at adding 2 more gas at 6:20, then three more gas at 8:00. That gives you - speed starts 6:18, finishes at 8:08 - lair starts 6:58, finishes at 8:18 - spire starts at 8:18, finishes at 9:58 - start 13 mutas at 9:58, finish at 10:31 (58 gas leftover) No idea how much your mineral economy is hurt doing the second build compared to the first. If you want faster (but fewer) muta, you could do gas at 5:00, 2 more gas at 6:20, 3 more gas at 7:55 to get - lair starts 6:18, finishes at 7:38 - speed starts 6:58, finishes at 8:48 - spire starts at 7:38, finishes at 9:18 - start 9 mutas at 9:18, finish at 9:51 (22 gas leftover) Yea seems about right, im not really big on this whole analysis thing perhaps there is a one true best gas timing, but personally i just play it as it feels right to me. On January 24 2013 21:44 MasterDrone wrote: Saw Stephano use this style yesterday. Hard countered by Protoss with Archon & HT. Storm is scareful, and if your micro is not good, you end up losing most of mutas. And then you cannot keep him in his base and lose to his attack Protoss should be using this comp but if you can contain and harass them well the protoss doesnt have enough gas to make it work. On January 24 2013 21:00 rEalGuapo wrote: As a Protoss I have to say this style is a nightmare. I never understood who not all Zergs do it, if I play against high master Protoss (I am high M EU too) I usually have like 50% winrate, when I play Zerg I use this style and basically never lost. I am pretty sure that this is as broken as one thing can be (hence Protoss was promised the anti-Muta Tempest with HotS). I really think the key is to never engage the Protoss main army. Constant harrasment will sooner or later lead to a lot of Probekills which will force Protoss into a 3Base all in. That means you will just get a million Spines and kill all his buildings. I am pretty sure that only a Stargate opening provides the chance to win against it. I have switched to HotS 2 weeks back and Mutas are way more popular there. If they stay this way anyone who follows this guide will get 100% winrate in ZvP outside of GM league or tournaments.. If anyone gets beaten using this strategy on high level I would be very interested in the replay! But you should not lose because of your own mistakes. Obviously missing an inject here and there or having a few more Overmins than you would like is not that big a deal, however you should not throw away any Mutas or take a fight you lose. Anyway OP, I hate you for making this guide, I also love you for doing it because I hope that someday Protoss will get a good unit vs Mutas. So far only Templars are good but the HotS Mutas just laugh at them with more Movespeed and Regeneration. -_- Also, against Immortal/Sentry all-ins I would rather get the Spines at the top of the main ramp and go for a basetrade, you should either get up like 20 Spines and hold your main or Protoss will ignore your third and you can use those drones to get up 2 more hatches. Then at some point Protoss will be forced to split his army in order to hunt your buildings and protect his own at the same time. Usually you can just kill both armies ezpz. In a basetrade you want to kill buildings in this order 1. Cybercore 2. Forge 3. Nexi 4. Pylons 5. Whatever, you already won! Spines at top of the main arnt normally necessary. If you screw something up and suspect you cant hold your natural because your behind obviously yea its a great idea as attacking up that ramp is crazily inefficient. If you try hold while throwing your 3rd and natural your pretty all in with your anti all in (if that makes sense?) On January 24 2013 19:14 sunglasseson wrote: those immortal allins were slow. very very slow they both didnt even move out till 10:30 or 11mins where as the build should hit at 9:30 10. that being said muta ling counters immortal sentry and i dont think any toss will win if thats the build they are going also droning to saturate a 3rd is "risky" because a good toss is gonna stop you from seeing exactly what hes doing and what happens when they do a 4 gate +1 3rd hatch zerg down idn im far more conservative when i muta ling'd simply because not losing before 10mins usually just means i won. On January 24 2013 19:27 sunglasseson wrote: good makes no play here. maps determine ease of scout i just watched sniper lose to 8 gate lol. not everything can be scouted You can scout 7 gates fine. Sniper just screwed up, even code S champions screw up sometimes. Most Immortal sentry pushes leave after 9:15 on EU or NA. If people try push too fast they have lots of trouble vs the lings anyway, much safer for them to get a couple more units up instead of trying to hit the ultimate timing. The redic early pushes used to be really common but more recently roach ling people normally sit outside the protoss base with a few roaches and some lings now to deal with that, when the immortals and sentries move out they are either killed or forced back. Pushing at a more sane time is just overall better currently. On January 23 2013 14:07 dproberts55 wrote: High gold here nothing special, just tried this out for the first time, and just got so BM after doing this LOL. He even pylon blocked/cannoned my natural ramp (whoops didn't build a few lings) and killed my natural. He came out with a much delayed immortal sentry, warp prism push, so I just laid down 2 1/2 layers of spines like you said, picked off his warp prism and went and attacked. I forgot to upgrade mutas, which would have helped a ton, but I picked off his workers and stalkers until I was confident, and took him out. Feels good to get some revenge on some sentries =). Fun style to play against toss, espescally after I have been doing Filters roach style for a while. Thanks man! This is going to be even more fun once I get it down, my execution sucked having not practiced it, but it still worked out. On January 24 2013 08:18 HaVoK12 wrote: Looking for more replays. I'm trying to make this my main build in zvp and it would be nice to get my timings down better. On January 24 2013 18:02 Discarder wrote: This build is just so insanely powerful and unstoppable. I usually lose 80% of the time versus protoss when I try to go infestors but with mutas, I simply go 4th and 5th base with gas and do anything I want. With this build, I now win 100% versus protoss. I still transition but I free up supply gradually and build a million spines in all attack paths. Usually protoss just dies with a build order mistake or their existence in the game just becomes more longer and painful. Thanks OP for letting me come back to this. Especially now I can't win with infestors being small dick range... Im glad you guys like it ^_^ | ||
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Insoleet
France1806 Posts
On January 24 2013 21:44 MasterDrone wrote: Saw Stephano use this style yesterday. Hard countered by Protoss with Archon & HT. Storm is scareful, and if your micro is not good, you end up losing most of mutas. And then you cannot keep him in his base and lose to his attack For sure, but it's still a viable way to play ZvP. But if you are outmicroed, yes, you loose. No matchup should have a strategy which would give 100% winrate. (Like was the lingfestor into BL rush back in the times...) | ||
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Iksf
United Kingdom444 Posts
On January 25 2013 03:37 Insoleet wrote: For sure, but it's still a viable way to play ZvP. But if you are outmicroed, yes, you loose. No matchup should have a strategy which would give 100% winrate. (Like was the lingfestor into BL rush back in the times...) Yea this is very true. It can be easy to get your mutalisks in bad positions and protoss can definitely win, especially if your sloppy. However I find its always pretty clear what you did wrong, the problem almost always being insufficient map control leading to bad positional decisions; which is something you can always work on improving. | ||
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