[G] Mass Mutalisk ZvP for 2013 - Page 4

On January 22 2013 13:00 Cyro wrote:



Im sorry to say you would have lost this particular game if the toss executed better.

His early game timings, macro and a lot of small details were wrong or bad (he's not trained for this like PartinG, it happens), he moved out 20 sec late with 5 sentries instead of 8, not having mined from the fourth gas and only having 100 gas in bank, his gateway timings were weird and then he hit a supply block for a minute or so at the worst possible time. He also wasted too many forcefields and hung around a lot when he shouldnt have - Your spines were too late to be up, he could have killed one if not two of your bases before the muta pop. It's questionable if you would outright die, but in this game in particular the protoss did not play anywhere near optimally, and i dont believe you could have survived if he did with the way you were playing.

To expand on details a little, it took him 11:00 to reach your thirds creep. He could have done it in 10:00 with the amount of threat you was able to apply with your lings - regardless, he was able to kill the hatch. I know you are fine with sacking it, but if he hadnt had his warp prism horribly out of position he could have forced you to disengage with your mutalisks or killed all of them with the stalker warp in - Perhaps if he hadnt been supply blocked for over a minute, he wouldnt even need this warp in. You took a lead in the game here, but only because his early game was bad, he didnt have as much >stuff< as he was supposed to have, he didnt hit as >fast< as he was supposed to have done and he hit several supply blocks, one really badly. The direct consequence of this is him not being able to do nearly as much damage as he could have done. It is also him losing all of his sentries, the three immortals, the warp prism and quite a few zealots, which put you ahead when you shouldnt have been.

Not only was he not aggressively setting up proxy pylons to use as a primary source of warping in units (with the prism as a backup, used as a micro, flexibility and security tool) he phased the prism between his army and your natural, was forced to back himself to a wall leaving it completely exposed. This is a massive massive no.

I dont mean to arrogantly state something along the lines of "muta ling is not viable blablabla", but execution as you showed it here will not live.

I hope this was informative some

On January 22 2013 10:55 InfCereal wrote:
I think someone asked for a replay defending the immortal sentry all in.

Just played one. Not sure how high level it is, as I'm on tilt, but masters none the less.

I engaged outside of the spine crawlers because I got antsy.

http://ggtracker.com/matches/1236750

Obviously the guy has only done the style for a little while its not the most refined build. You seem a bit pessimistic about 7g robo, its pretty accepted that on maps like cloud and ohana a perfectly executed 7g robo is unbeatable with roach ling. Even on maps pretty good for roach ling, holds are pretty mistake reliant and much harder for zerg than protoss.

This build can hold 7g robo at least as well as roach ling for any map and id say for maps like cloud in particular you will do a lot better with this than roach ling, as its pretty map neutral.

Example of a similar game of mine vs a partial hold of a 7g robo. Screwed up the hold quite a bit, mostly because of my crap macro for first few games of a day. So became somewhat even.

http://ggtracker.com/matches/1249773

On January 22 2013 23:22 Cyro wrote:


Im not being pessimistic, im being realistic. I think there are ways to force muta to work or at least take the game later without being too far behind, but making lings, engaging him 1-2 times on map with them and waiting for mutas to pop at 11:30 is simply not good enough. I guess you're playing at mid masters and because of the ladder system averaging MMR's between races (insane vs zerg WR not able to make me find better zerg opponents because of other shortcomings) i dont have much experience against zergs at quite that high level, but i have put easily 50 hours of my life into studying this all in. You cannot hold if you play the way you did in the first replay.



I wanted to say here, too, protoss simply didnt execute what he was doing anywhere near as effectively as he should have/could have done. This chrono boost utilization and overlap is pretty disgusting for such a refined pressure<allin. The amount of things he does wrong or notably inefficiently go into the dozens, i wont list them here, but holding immortal all in's from this caliber of players tells you nothing of the way you are playing being viable at the highest level. I feel that you could hit somebody in a bo7 who has studied and practiced such an all in to near perfection and if that happened you would have no choice but to very significantly change your approach to defense, change styles completely or simply lose every game in the series - you probably wouldnt blindly do something like this every game, but you are relying on your opponent not having any kind of optimized play in the 5-10 minute window of the game in order to live and come out ahead

On January 22 2013 23:59 Iksf wrote:


The protoss was rank 30 GM, just saying.

I dont know what the hell you want from me, I cant just list a buildorder that will defeat parting 100% if you follow it and this concept can beat a parting level player if you execute it as like a DRG level player.

You can beat any 7g robo iv ever played against with this, from plenty of GM and high master protoss. Thats all i care about.

On January 23 2013 00:08 Cyro wrote:


Just stating that this does not in its current form come close to working to anybody against anybody who has an idea what they are doing and puts 20 hours into practicing to get close to perfect execution. You only win because it's nowhere close to perfect (not even in the same ballpark) and i think its more useful to know that than to state that you can hold anything and he left wondering whats up when you get thrown to the trash by those occasional people who have actually practiced such an all in for any real period of time. You clearly dont want my help, so guess im leaving now

On January 23 2013 01:51 IamPryda wrote:
It's builds like this that make me want to throw my
Keyboard out the window in pvz

On January 23 2013 02:06 opisska wrote:
There was a time when I was getting nuts from muta play. Then I learned to defend it reasonably and it became much more rare, so it stopped being such a huge pain. Nowadays, when I see a muta player, I know that it is going to be annoying as hell and I am not gonna enjoy the game too much, but I may come ahead in the end.

With one exception: people playing like you! If somebody knows that they should stay on mutas forever without a transition, I have no fucking clue what to do. The problem is that no "simple" things work any more. Canons are pointless, so are stalkers and the only thing that is remotely usefull and HTs that are slow and fragile as fuck.

I think that this build is an example that SC2 can never be balanced for all skill levels - I still quite believe that it is balanced at pro level, but in Platinum league, I am pretty sure that most of the people that I can beat day and night when they go roach-infestor to BL would roll me over, if they only realized that they can just build mutalisks.

On January 23 2013 02:26 Mavvie wrote:
I like most of the guide, but I'm kind of on the fence about a few aspects of it. By delaying upgrades and taking lots of gas quick you're relying on the first wave of mutalisks being unscouted and doing a lot of damage. This makes it seem coinflippy and unreliable. I feel that it's much safer to get 1/1 while the spire is building, since it's only 2.5 less mutalisks but it opens some huge 2/2 muta/ling/bane timings before storm and stuff.

The way I see it is there's three ways to play mutalisks in ZvP:

1) Only make ~10 or so to harass while fast teching to hive.

2) Mass mutalisks and only mutalisks and try to kill your opponent with pure mutalisks, like in this guide.

3) Use mutalisks to force the stalker/templar techpath, then try to hit a pre-storm timing with banelings.

I really like 3; the 2-2 speedbane timing is so strong that if they don't have storm out, they kind of lose. Does anyone have a lot of experience with this type of push? Similar to the ZvT one that Shine/NesTea used a lot in their up+down matches, but with a faster fourth, more drones, and more mutalisks!

I think that if you snipe the sentries with the mutalisks, you can just roll speedbanes through their nexus and still have enough left to kill their army. Thoughts?

On January 23 2013 02:43 BuiBui wrote:
On Wings I was top 8 master. Play low Gm's too.

Just came back to wings, from hots to try out your style.
And I have won 90% with the build.
The skipping evo upgrades, really does allow for more muta when you really need them. and faster muta upgrades

Plus. the BM was priceless.

GJ, I will work with it more!

EDIT:


Also. the 1 game I did lose. I lost because I decided to transition.
all the other games, which I stayed on muta tech no mater what. I won

^_^

On January 23 2013 02:57 Foxxan wrote:
i wanna ask a question,
i may have been asked already...

What if protoss go heavy phoenix?
Phoenix vs mutas, phoenix win right? or?

You mix in those other flying for zerg?

On January 23 2013 02:57 Foxxan wrote:
i wanna ask a question,
i may have been asked already...

What if protoss go heavy phoenix?
Phoenix vs mutas, phoenix win right? or?

You mix in those other flying for zerg?