EPTI've seen lots of pro protoss players throwing down 3 stargates when they see the spire, and hitting this INSANE phoenix/immortal/zealot/archon timing that absolutely crushes heavy muta play. Cannons are your friend while you buy time for the phoenix count to increase.
[G] Mass Mutalisk ZvP for 2013 - Page 10
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Mavvie
Canada923 Posts
I've seen lots of pro protoss players throwing down 3 stargates when they see the spire, and hitting this INSANE phoenix/immortal/zealot/archon timing that absolutely crushes heavy muta play. Cannons are your friend while you buy time for the phoenix count to increase. | ||
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gobbledydook
Australia2605 Posts
On February 26 2013 04:30 Mavvie wrote: Open stargate and get lots of phoenixes...be careful, it requires micro to pull off. I've seen lots of pro protoss players throwing down 3 stargates when they see the spire, and hitting this INSANE phoenix/immortal/zealot/archon timing that absolutely crushes heavy muta play. Cannons are your friend while you buy time for the phoenix count to increase. When the mutalisks see the three stargates, wouldn't Zerg transition immediately back into Infestor tech? | ||
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agahamsorr0w
Netherlands359 Posts
On February 26 2013 03:37 da_head wrote: thanks for the useful tip. wasn't aware i had infinite gas off 3 base. Anyone with actual advice? some more hints: cannons only cost minerals. i didnt say u should only make those units. just listing the end game compositipn vs mass mutas. and it doesnt matter that u dont have infinite gas cause ur way more efficient in trading inside ur base in mid game or anywhere on the map in late game. | ||
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da_head
Canada3350 Posts
On February 26 2013 04:53 gobbledydook wrote: When the mutalisks see the three stargates, wouldn't Zerg transition immediately back into Infestor tech? Yea.. Maybe some heavy air play to put pressure before a proper infestor tech switch can be done? Not sure. On February 26 2013 05:06 agahamsorr0w wrote: some more hints: cannons only cost minerals. i didnt say u should only make those units. just listing the end game compositipn vs mass mutas. and it doesnt matter that u dont have infinite gas cause ur way more efficient in trading inside ur base in mid game or anywhere on the map in late game. I specifically stated that i had trouble dealing with muta -> map control -> into w/e tech the zerg wants. Not pure mass mutas. Ill just ignore any further posts you make. Thanks. | ||
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agahamsorr0w
Netherlands359 Posts
On February 26 2013 05:13 da_head wrote: Yea.. Maybe some heavy air play to put pressure before a proper infestor tech switch can be done? Not sure. I specifically stated that i had trouble dealing with muta -> map control -> into w/e tech the zerg wants. Not pure mass mutas. Ill just ignore any further posts you make. Thanks. oh ok hahahah then why do u post on a mass muta thread? it's like me posting something on hots about legacy of the void and expecting serious comments. I can sense ur pretty mad man. Tried some yoga? And vs map control mutas, you still make phoenix but stop making them after 6-7 as normal. And seriously, depending on what hes doing u should react to it. User was warned for this post | ||
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da_head
Canada3350 Posts
On February 26 2013 06:03 agahamsorr0w wrote: oh ok hahahah then why do u post on a mass muta thread? it's like me posting something on hots about legacy of the void and expecting serious comments. I can sense ur pretty mad man. Tried some yoga? And vs map control mutas, you still make phoenix but stop making them after 6-7 as normal. And seriously, depending on what hes doing u should react to it. Because im asking about what zerg players who open up mutas have trouble dealing with against toss? So that way i may find solutions? Please refrain from posting unless you have something useful to contribute instead of asking if im mad or telling me to make 6 phoenix and scouting. Rofl. And yea, i have dealt with zergs who make 30-40 mutas, and when im finally able to deal with it, he tech switches to something else (for examples ultras to rape my stalkers and hts). So i figured it would make sense to post in a thread about MASS MUTA to see what zergs are having trouble with so i can apply some pressure back before they get a super eco and i lose. | ||
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DjSweetBazz
Sweden172 Posts
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Vanadiel
France961 Posts
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Iksf
United Kingdom444 Posts
On February 26 2013 21:39 Vanadiel wrote: I feel the build of Life against Parting, with ling Hydra into mass mutalisk way more stronger, because the first wave of ground unit do a ton of damage, reducing the stalker count and hard counter Immortal sentry all in. Its definitely viable but on maps like cloud kingdom I dont really like it. The straight muta opening is much more map neutral, however on something like antiga or even ohana I like the hydra build On February 26 2013 13:23 DjSweetBazz wrote: I have been owning high masters toss players with mass mutas, if they dont make a 2 base all in its usually a win for me, 1 funny thing I do is I throw down spire and hydralisk den at the same time, so when they scout me they think im gong hydras, usually this forces them to go colossi and that only makes my first pack of mutas to make more damage. Yea i do that a lot with a proxied spire its very good. People have commented its a bit of a gimmick, which it is, but its very cheap to do, not a total wasted investment anyway and can work beautifully. On February 26 2013 05:13 da_head wrote: Yea.. Maybe some heavy air play to put pressure before a proper infestor tech switch can be done? Not sure. I specifically stated that i had trouble dealing with muta -> map control -> into w/e tech the zerg wants. Not pure mass mutas. Ill just ignore any further posts you make. Thanks. In HotS i think you should open stargate every game and if you just make more phoenixs and control them well muta vs phoenix is unviable. The increased default range makes it impossible for zerg to do anything with mutalisks if protoss has good control. Its mechanically demanding for protoss but thats the solution. As for zerg transitioning, phoenixs are pretty good for lifting infestors and can be good harass all game long if you keep them alive. Zergs tech is much later and upgrades are normally delayed. Basically if you deflect the mutas without losing too much, he will be more behind than you are. | ||
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Moonrisesc
Netherlands38 Posts
On February 26 2013 21:39 Vanadiel wrote: I feel the build of Life against Parting, with ling Hydra into mass mutalisk way more stronger, because the first wave of ground unit do a ton of damage, reducing the stalker count and hard counter Immortal sentry all in. I've played around with the hydra opener. Basically I find its a lot stronger against people that go quick third bases. But its weaker against just about everything else. Infact if they happen to go blind 2 base colossus you pretty much outright lose, altough this is uncommon, if your opponent knows your style they might still do it. Also if you do the hydra build vs immortal sentry you end up in a situation where the protoss can just run away, forcefield and add colossus and a third. They'll be behind but they'll be in a playable position where as if you go muta, they have 0 probes and HAVE to try to break your spines. Good thing is most protosses that do the immortal sentry allin won't be able to play the macro game that well because all of their games end at 12:00. | ||
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Vanadiel
France961 Posts
On February 27 2013 17:35 Moonrisesc wrote: I've played around with the hydra opener. Basically I find its a lot stronger against people that go quick third bases. But its weaker against just about everything else. Infact if they happen to go blind 2 base colossus you pretty much outright lose, altough this is uncommon, if your opponent knows your style they might still do it. Also if you do the hydra build vs immortal sentry you end up in a situation where the protoss can just run away, forcefield and add colossus and a third. They'll be behind but they'll be in a playable position where as if you go muta, they have 0 probes and HAVE to try to break your spines. Good thing is most protosses that do the immortal sentry allin won't be able to play the macro game that well because all of their games end at 12:00. I disagree with the part where it is weaker against everything else, because I actually feel like it's way better to defend against most of 2 base (tech) all in, because it allow you to save your third base and maintain an 6 gaz income . No one should go blind 2 base collossi, I know that Parting did and win with it against Life, but to be honest I'm pretty sure you can scout it with an overlord/overseer and just put down a roach warren in time and overrun the army. And about the 7 gates immortal sentry all in, if he goes back and start a third/collosi you still have a timing to attack with ling hydralisk before the range upgrade of collosi and do a lot of damage with it, and then the mutalisk transition is deadly. WHat I really like with this opening is that you can control the pace of the game and be the agressor. | ||
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Iksf
United Kingdom444 Posts
On February 27 2013 19:25 Vanadiel wrote: I disagree with the part where it is weaker against everything else, because I actually feel like it's way better to defend against most of 2 base (tech) all in, because it allow you to save your third base and maintain an 6 gaz income . No one should go blind 2 base collossi, I know that Parting did and win with it against Life, but to be honest I'm pretty sure you can scout it with an overlord/overseer and just put down a roach warren in time and overrun the army. And about the 7 gates immortal sentry all in, if he goes back and start a third/collosi you still have a timing to attack with ling hydralisk before the range upgrade of collosi and do a lot of damage with it, and then the mutalisk transition is deadly. WHat I really like with this opening is that you can control the pace of the game and be the agressor. If the protoss understands how to react to hydralisks he will definitely be able to survive the counter push. Its working amazingly currently because most protoss havnt seen a hydralisk in over a year but going hydralisk and shoving back at protoss was a common strategy with earlier 3 hatch openings vs 7g robo or blink. It works amazingly if protoss sticks around and takes fights, but if protoss just pull back, get colossus and a third pretty quickly and stall with force fields they can avoid giving zerg any good engagements even though zerg has this amazing compositional advantage. Hydralisks are really damn slow off creep and sentries can seriously abuse that. | ||
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theonlyshaft
United States581 Posts
 Reading through the details now! | ||
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mrdombie
United Kingdom54 Posts
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KiLLJoy216
United States71 Posts
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FrashQ
53 Posts
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MysteryMeat1
United States3292 Posts
On March 03 2013 02:42 FrashQ wrote: Waiting for hots when mutas dont fear storms anymore? I dont understand how to kill this style in wol, and i fear hots becasue of new mutas even more. If you play patiently and get 3base storm good upgrades and dont lose probes, zerg is just going to get 40+spines and you will never win a basetrade, and if you react fast you might not have enough to kill the ever-growing muta ball. Im losing to people much worse than me if they use this guide. There not worse than you if you losing. But i agree this style is extremely frustrating to deal with as toss. Ive been surviving by building 4 cannons at each base while teching up to HT and going up to blink 12 gateways and moving out around 150 supply with warp prism. all excess minerals go to cannoning my 3rd. By that i mean like 15-20 cannons with 2 hts. I move out with like 8 hts and storm everything that moves. | ||
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Salv
Canada3083 Posts
As for HOTS, phoenix have an additional range to start and they also have the bonus range upgrade. Right now in WOL, phoenix range is 4 with an upgrade to 6, in HOTS it'll be base 5 with an upgrade to 7 - so if you get that upgrade you'll be doing really well. Unlike WOL, the fleet beacon will be very useful to you besides just the phoenix range upgrade because you can transition into tempest which are very strong versus Zerg late game. I think in general Protoss will have less trouble versus mutalisk overall because the metagame will involve a lot of Protoss opening stargate, so that should immediately result in fewer Zergs going for mutalisk. Secondly, because the stargate tech is likely going to be integral to the best late game PvZ army, throwing one or two down in response to a spire will be greatly beneficial, unlike in WOL where maybe you won't be using them at all post-phoenix production. | ||
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Mavvie
Canada923 Posts
On March 03 2013 02:54 MysteryMeat1 wrote: There not worse than you if you losing. But i agree this style is extremely frustrating to deal with as toss. Ive been surviving by building 4 cannons at each base while teching up to HT and going up to blink 12 gateways and moving out around 150 supply with warp prism. all excess minerals go to cannoning my 3rd. By that i mean like 15-20 cannons with 2 hts. I move out with like 8 hts and storm everything that moves. Not sure what level you are, so this may be redundant, but this is pretty much the best reactive counter to the strategy. My friend fiveyearold (GM protoss) says he basically does the same. He explained it to me as such: 1) Fast third, and he typically goes for a 4gate pressure into blink + third, but any robo and/or twilight expand works 2) Blink of course, and on some maps get a cannon or two at the most exposed base to deal with the initial wave. 3) Chrono out blink, observers, double forge, and go for DTs before storm (very important!) 4) Do some DT harass to deny the mad bases, almost no zerg will go through the effort to spine/spore up all 7 bases they take 5) Storm immediately after DTs, begin massing cannons and preemptively rebuilding tech at your third (only need like 4 gates, core, templar archives). 6) For example, on Entombed Valley you mass cannons in your natural and third, and move around your archon/HT force to deny ANY attempt at baseracing. On Ohana you probably have to sac your main, so it's best not to build your tech there in the first place. Just...cannons everywhere, and zone out mutas with archon/HT 7) Once you max out, 1a across the map with your main army and win the game. If you want you can get one colossus to break the spines eventually, or you could just use good blink micro. As always, more archons, more chance of win. I totally agree with him, as it's pretty much all I lose to when doing this style. | ||
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whitefenix
Sweden40 Posts
I'm still using this build in HotS, but I have a couple of questions now that some units have changed. First off, if the protoss opens stargate and builds a ton of phoenixes (10-15) I feel like I have to give up on mutas, If he only builds 5-6 I can just play normally, maybe with an infestor or two, but if he builds many I can't really engage him thanks to the new range. My current solution is to throw down a hydra den with the spire and start 1/1 and go for a hydra/ling timing (with an ultra/viper transition) if I see continued phoenix production. Is this the correct solution? Do I really need to abandon mass muta vs heavy stargate? Secondly, If a protoss does the warpgate/mothercore push off two bases, I find I have to devote a lot of resources to hold it without losing my third, and I can't really saturate properly. In that position, trying to transition back to mass muta usually leaves me open for a follow-up attack. Should I just abandon mass muta entirely and transition to some sort of hydra/infestor/swarm host/etc play if he is doing a warpgate push? Thanks again for the guide, you rock! | ||
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