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Iksf's guide to mass mutalisk ZvP in 2013![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/7AIeAfS.png)
Recently, IEM being a good example, protoss have been having a reasonably easy time vs broodlord infestor. 3 base timings are becoming very reliable for killing zergs going for quick broodlords and protoss early game harassment has evolved to keep zerg from droning as they wish. Zerg spends the entire game turtling up to this broodlord infestor composition, while constantly worrying about any random 2/3 base push, pressure, warp prism etc. the protoss wishes.
Then in the late game, should the protoss play for it or if their 3 base push was ineffective, though zerg have historically done well in late game ZvP, it becomes very hard for zerg to end the game or punish protoss greed or mistakes. This leaves you with huge long boring games where the zerg slowly closes any possibility of loss by adding static defence, upgrades and maxing on pure broodfestor to finally take the win after 40 mins of boredom, provided they were able to deflect every form of pressure the protoss has thrown at them for the whole game.
Zerg can naturally push before their ultimate god army to try and preserve some small sense of enjoyment from ZvP late game however are then left to deal with a bunch of very bad mechanics to try and win late game fights, mainly praying for bad vortexes, overaggressive blinks or a lucky neural.
I think I speak for everyone when I say this late game is one of the worst things in the entirety of sc2.
Having long given up on broodlord infestor for a good 8 months or so iv been working on refining an alternative way to play ZvP. Using old games from early 2011, my own experiments and ladder experiences as well as games from people such as nestea who never truly gave up on mutalisks in the matchup I came up with a pretty solid set of timings to provide an alternative to broodfestor. However I never really believed it was a true alternative.
In IEM though zerg attempting to play broodlord have by and large been dominated by protoss and there have been several games where a zerg has tried to throw together something with mutalisks to try to win. I was surprised at how unsuccessful most of these mutalisk attempts were or I disagreed with how the zerg executed it so I decided to write this.
Basic build
+ Show Spoiler +Standard 3 hatch opening to 6 mins, assuming forge expansion into some generic robo 3rd or something else reasonably passive, for a base to work with. 14/15 pool 15/16 hatch 15 overlord 15 queen 2 lings + extras as required 22 queen 24 hatchery @6:10 3 gas Lair Speed Spire 7:45 3 gas I don’t really care if people want to do 11 pools, faster gas or 3rd hatch before queen or whatever it really doesn’t matter its at around 6 mins things become more interesting. ~ 6-6.30 3 gas should be taken allowing a lair to be started at around or slightly before 7 mins. 3 gas at 6:30 mins like some players for example leenock use is too late for this. 2 gas at 6 mins is fine, as is 3 before 6:20 or a single gas much earlier, whatever you wish. We are then going to sack an overlord in the main at around 6:30, especially if there is no gas taken at the natural. Protoss gates for basically any form of aggression go down around this timing and as we want to be droning as hard as we can getting good scouting information is vital. The other main thing we are looking for is a Stargate. If there’s no Stargate or gates, what he is doing doesn’t really matter that much to you any more. For this example the protoss has a robo and no 4 gate morphing in and the gas at his natural is being taken at around 6:30 implying either immortal all in or a robo 3rd. From here we get zergling speed and extra gas such that we can afford a spire once the lair is done. If you double gassed at 6 getting another 2 gas with your lair will work out fine, as will just running off 3 gas from around 6:15. Adjust to however you prefer to manage your gas. Once the spire is started we continue to whack out drones as hard as we can until around 8 mins. At around 7:45 we add on the rest of our gas. At this point you should have a solid 3 base saturation 6 gasses running, 2 lings + any the protoss forced out of you. You should have no problem hitting a good 70 supply by 8 mins if the protoss doesn’t apply more than 1 gate of pressure. My personal record is at 88 with this build. Once we have 3 base saturation it is unsafe for us to take a 4th and proceed to drone until the protoss has confirmed to be going for a 3rd. So once 3 base saturation has been reached produce zerglings constantly, no macro hatch is needed at this point. Continue production of zerglings until spire is approx half way complete, you should get a good 60+ odd out if there is no 3rd by this time. These zerglings serve two main functions, the most important of which is to slow 7 gate robo pushes moving across the map. They can also slow late 3rds a bit and generally just be a nuisance. Combine with overlord creep to block the 3rd for as long as you can though don’t throw the lings away for free. Once your spire is half way complete cut any ling production and begin saving minerals, gas and larva. From here for as long as the protoss isn’t trying to take a 3rd add on spines at your natural. Once your spire completes assure you have enough to make a good 14+ mutalisks in one big wave. The rest of your minerals should go into spines if there is no third. If it is just simply a very late 3rd you should have time to cancel the spines. I have not neglected to mention upgrades, I simply do not get any ling or roach upgrades all game for the most part. Eventually in the game there may be nothing better to get but for the early game, money required to get these upgrades going isn't worthwhile. This has been a major reason that mutas are underused. By burning gas on upgrades you are unable to keep the investment in mutalisks required to make this style work. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/HsCDewX.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/TlOcmkq.png)
4 gate pressure
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Between the early overlord sack and scouting the natural gas you should be able to see this is coming well before 7 mins. Simply add on a roach warren, lings, perhaps a spine as needed and hold, then continue. Adding a roach warren isn’t that big of an investment so if you want to do that blind its not a big deal, though roaches are useless other than for survival. People with early speed builds can deal with it with lings if they prefer
7 gate
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Drop any concern for this build out of your mind, get roaches up as quickly as you can and just try to survive. If you survive without large damage you basically win doing whatever.
4 gate twilight
+ Show Spoiler +Can open into 7 gate blink or a DT build. For the Dts your lair should be sufficiently early to make overseers and units. If your lair is delayed you can make an evo for spores. For 7 gate blink produce roach ling, stay on creep, tech to infestors then crush his army. Usual stuff. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/mP6WXDd.png) Not this time protoss!
Straight 7 gate blink
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Though this build is really bad its still used sometimes. The lings you produce slow this a lot and mutas should be out in plenty of time to either crush or base race vs this.
7 gate robo
+ Show Spoiler +The big one. This build can definitely hold 7 gate robo. The large flood of zerglings slow the push a good bit. Getting a good pack of mutalisks out in combination with your lings to counter attack is normally the most successful choice though some pushes can be simply engaged. When at the protoss base sniping the cybercore is very high priority, if you can get it down quickly the game is yours, simply make more mutas until you can just roll the stalkers and sentries heads up. Stop him mining asap as a full base race is not uncommon. A strong spine wall at your natural is required to keep you alive and sacking the 3rd is normally necessary. The wall must be at least 2 spines thick, preferable 3 and as dense as possible. Focus firing the spines on stalkers is normally the best idea, just make sure they arnt killing zealots. You also must use queens lings and spare mutas to control warp prism elevator pushes past the spine wall. Production of many lings is really not recommended, save money for spines and mutas. +1 on mutas helps a lot, definitely worth the money. Make sure your overlords do not die, this can be hugely important in base races as the protoss will never have enough money to rebuild all his lost pylons, leaving no army or probe production for a long time. giving you a huge mineral lead. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/6kkRTmW.png) A strong spinewall buys much time vs an immortal all inWorst case scenario the game may evolve into a full on base race so hide drones on the map etc., however its normally possible to force the protoss out of your base before you lose your main leaving you the only one mining. Also incorrect micro from him can result in him losing stalkers and sentries to the spine wall leaving you with enough mutas to crush him. Overall iv found this method much more reliable than any roach ling or infestor hold vs 7 gate robo.
The other 7 gate robo (prism gate all in)
+ Show Spoiler +This is a real pain. A spread of lings and overlords + good map awareness to see the warp prism coming is essential for giving you the reaction time you require, fortunately most people who do this build do the same path with prism per map. To hold this you basically need to accept +1 zealots are too crazy good to make much ling production worthwhile. If you blindly built a roach warren your in a pretty good spot just make roaches, micro a bit and you should be alright. If you didn’t you have to get at least one spine per base down asap, preferably more and stall to mutas. When a good 15 mutas pop out you should be able to crush the push and take the game But its a real pain. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/abrDb9F.png) A slightly late reaction from Nerchio is all Daisy needs to close the series 3-0
2x Stargate
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This is the hard counter to this style. Fortunately this build is normally awful, relatively unused and easy to scout. Just abandon this do a roach hydra push or something you’ll be fine.
Single Stargate
+ Show Spoiler +This is one of protoss 2 best chances of getting to a good place in a macro game vs this, however there are many different ways of dealing with it Infestor+ Show Spoiler +
Once Stargate is scouted, entire style can be abandoned in favour of ling infestor. Just add evos and spores, get infestation pit once lair completes, continue with a more conventional ZvP style.
Just going for a roach heavy Max push, sometimes with burrow move or drop is very good against Stargate builds normally, your roach warren may be a little late but its not the biggest deal. From there you can transition to infestor or back into mutalisk. There are many old reps and vods, especially from DRG where roach ling into muta is used, commonly against Stargate openers. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/NH4CS4d.png) Deciding against Mutalisks this game, the zerg has plenty of room to transition towards standard play.![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/2KH3Yt2.png) A deadly dance between mutalisk and phoenix commencesThere is are still a good few tricks you can use to defeat phoenixes with this opener Naturally ofc you need to get spores up and use the lings you produced to stop a greedy 3rd or deny pylons for 4 gate Stargate. Fortunately for us the way people go Stargate. at the moment is to normally make X amount of phoenix then move out in a big wave to try catch zerg by surprise. Additional phoenix production is not normally continued until a spire is seen. When 15 mutalisks pop the protoss is forced back a good bit. Proper mutalisk micro can be used to defeat these lower phoenix counts without difficulty and this wave of mutas combined with a wave of lings can normally deny a protoss 3rd. If for whatever reason the phoenix count gets a bit out of control or if phoenix range is researched removing the ability to micro from mutalisks, a single fungal can trap the phoenixes long enough for a muta ball to chew then up pretty bad. You can also mindgame the protoss by proxying the spire on the map via creep drop. Though a risk, showing something like a hydra den in your main while secretly saving for a deathwave of mutalisks can catch the protoss off guard and end the game as they tech into colossus. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Yw7TrZ7.png) Spire hidden on the map can confuse protoss
Rare build, seems reasonably popular on NA. If anyone was wondering what happens when you mutalisk vs it, you just free win vs every variant iv seen.
Quick 3 base
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A fast 3rd from protoss lets you get into a macro game with this style vs protoss with no real advantage for either of you. Can sometimes be denied by lings but largely solid style vs mutalisk openers.
After the first wave
Harassment
+ Show Spoiler +Obviously youv just made a bunch of mutas, you poke around at stuff, do lots of damage vs bad people get largely deflected by good people etc. Stacking mutalisks with an overlord helps massively for sniping pylons etc., focus fire and weave in and out with mutalisks if you must engage stalkers or cannons. Magic box archons and Hts. Losing mutas is almost always not worthwhile. Main exceptions are focusing down a vulnerable nexus or probe line while protoss is out of position or the forge. Killing the forge or templar archives with mutas helps a huge amount and is definitely worth a couple of mutas if you can get it. Trying to deny blink however is rarely successful so don’t try. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/lLmUfSr.png) Stacked flock of mutalisks quickly snipe a few free cannons
Expand
+ Show Spoiler +Once the protoss is sufficiently distracted you should literally be throwing down expansions as the previous one completes, you totally want to zerg the map, you can reasonably safely drone up to well in the 90s, sometimes even in excess of 100 drones just to build a mineral bank. Focus on gas income. Aggressive creep spread isn’t that important you just want to be able to build spines in key areas if you need to. Creep drop all bases on the map, strive for utter map control. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/RPfKCy5.png) A strong contain on the protoss lets the zerg drone heavily Get a good spread of overlords to see any warp prisms and spore spine every base. DT can be VERY successful vs this style if you are not prepared. On the flip side however well deflected prisms and Dts can leave protoss even further starved. Throw changelings at the protoss base as you can, to keep an eye on army movement and tech. Focus on building a ridiculous mutalisk count with good upgrades and enough spines to ensure your survival. For amount of mutas, basically you never have enough, iv had plenty of games with excess of 80 3/3 mutalisks. Your ultimate goal is to constantly deal cheap damage wherever the protoss presents a vulnerability while denying a 4th. It is insanely hard for protoss to consolidate enough spread out anti air to take a 4th without losing another base in trade. Preserving your early mutalisks is essential to keep this strong grip on the protoss. Use an individual muta or few mutas to scout around the protoss base while your flock focuses things down to keep track of the stalkers work out where Hts and archons are located and look for good targets for your mutalisks. This helps you stop lose mutas to big blinks and storms. Again keep control of the map so you can never be flanked leaving the protoss base.
Transitioning
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Never transition
Transitioning is the main way people seem to lose when I see them execute all the previous correctly. You have weak ling upgrades and no infestor energy, the second you start burning gas moving into broodlord infestor will give the protoss the relief they need to start pushing you back. Ultralisks baneling hypothetically transitions a bit better but in reality they really not very good.
3 base all in
+ Show Spoiler +Protoss 3 base all ins are seriously all in the second the protoss moves across the map any hope of the protoss resuming production in the game are gone instantly. Firstly take out the templar archives, the most valuable thing protoss has, also get the cyber core and forge if its researching. Manually controlling a second smaller group of mutalisks to locate and deal with templar scattered through his base is ideal ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/hcyWa9K.png) After 10 minutes of chasing each other around the map the zerg can finally take a head on engagement.
Defending the all in
+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/hMkZSQB.png) NesTea uses a formidable spine wall to blunt Partings push Basically burn all your money into spines in key locations. NesTea in his recent game vs parting on whirlwind used lots of speedbanelings to compliment this. Personally I dislike this, any gas not in mutas imo is gas wasted. However its NesTea, im not going to declare him flat out wrong. You will commonly have to sack the majority of your bases to survive these pushes but its fine, if you survive with any mining at all your destined to win. You have many bases and protoss cannot safely split his army. Keep good map vision and try and stop probes leaving the protoss base if you can ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/KlZYxYP.png) Poor map control from the zerg throws the protoss a lifeline in a baserace.
Mothership
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The mothership can be a key tool for protoss vs mass mutalisk. Firstly good use of the motherships recall ability can help protoss take a 4th more safely. This can largely be counteracted by making lots of little to try force the protoss to recall. Once the mothership is out of energy it gives you a large timing to do lots of damage sometimes including killing the mothership.
Vortex can be extremely dangerous to mutalisks, however less so than broodlords. If all your mutalisks get archon toileted you will probably lose however it is reasonably easy to keep the amount of mutalisks that get vortexed pretty low, they are quite fast and your working to keep good vision over everything with changelings etc. As with broodlord toilets rolling in a bunch of banes into a vortex can save your mutalisks and probably win you the game to boot. In the end of the day protoss mothership usage will likely be cost efficient for them, but its a huge vulnerability.
By the time protoss gets a mothership out without dying and gets energy they will be running on vapours, even taking some pretty cost ineffective trades to keep them contained is normally fine, you should be banking a ridiculous amount by this time.
Motherships can also be dangerous in elimination races, aka sitting on top of a pylon etc. allowing other protoss armies to move more independently. This can be an irritation but iv never lost a game because of it.
I will add more replays when I can find some good examples. Recently formatted computer and replays I do have arnt really ideal examples.
Some replays from a friend of mine, moonrise. He does the same style but his own personal preferances on gas etc. but overall the same.
Stargate
http://drop.sc/296943
7g robo
http://drop.sc/296939
http://drop.sc/296941
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Please ask questions I will try answer as best as I can
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I'm a high master zerg who does this every game vs protoss (and have been for a while) would love to exchange notes some time lol. So what is your record for most mutas at once? Mine is 80 :D
Everything that you have said is literally exactly what I do. The idea of never transitioning and never adding speed banes I think is very important and probably why this style isn't used more often. People think they have to transition and it always screws them over. The only thing I do different is against 1 stargate I generally mix in ~4 corruptors to counter phoenixes and then switch to only mutas (keep making corruptors if he keeps making phoenixes). This shuts down the phoenixes so hard (as long as you keep your mutas and corruptors together) and if they try to take a third with us I've found that sometimes you can just kill them. Other than that, this is exactly what I do. Very well written.
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iv had 96 i think, with some help from mass cancel. Won ages before that though.
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Never transition, really? Once you are on 12 gas, pumping out infestors and BL should take very little time, right? I feel like no matter howmany mutas you have, if a few storms hit your muta ball you're done. Nonetheless, nice guide. I will def use this, especially on maps such as entombed, on which toss takes an early third.
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On January 20 2013 06:33 Henk wrote:
Never transition, really? Once you are on 12 gas, pumping out infestors and BL should take very little time, right? I feel like no matter howmany mutas you have, if a few storms hit your muta ball you're done. Nonetheless, nice guide. I will def use this, especially on maps such as entombed, on which toss takes an early third.
I heavily disagree if im honest, I have tried that and its felt very bad. A good example would be the TLO vs MaNa games a few hours ago. TLO may have won but he already won before he transitioned and MaNa was able to almost take it even when down 80 supply. It leaves a massive timing window open for no good reason.
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Could you please provide some replays defending the 7gate Robo (AKA immo/sentry) with mutalisks? Aside from the biggest maps I feel you don't have enough time.
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On January 20 2013 06:48 Iksf wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2013 06:33 Henk wrote:
Never transition, really? Once you are on 12 gas, pumping out infestors and BL should take very little time, right? I feel like no matter howmany mutas you have, if a few storms hit your muta ball you're done. Nonetheless, nice guide. I will def use this, especially on maps such as entombed, on which toss takes an early third. I heavily disagree if im honest, I have tried that and its felt very bad. A good example would be the TLO vs MaNa games a few hours ago. TLO may have won but he already won before he transitioned and MaNa was able to almost take it even when down 80 supply. It leaves a massive timing window open for no good reason.
Not to mention that even if you somehow get you're whole muta clump stormed, you have so many bases that your bank is big enough to just remax on mutas. (I have made 40ish at once before)
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As someone who used this a lot I gotta say nice guide.
My two cents:
1. your recommendation not to make upgs - I cannot agree on this one. With this style you are gonna flood a lot of money that ofc you can burn into spines but I find it much more efficient to mass lings as well and use them agressively. You can hit in 2 different places then, set up traps for blink stalkers etc. That 200-300 gas when you are on 8+ gas income is nothing and gives you so much more options.
2. I really believe that at a certain skill lvl this build just stops to work. With a proper counter (parting does it in a game vs nestea - he only lost there coz he didnt scout hidden nesteas base) you just cant win. Thats why I gave up on this style, maybe transitoning to BL would be a better choice.
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I can assure you this is pretty valid and refined =D
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On January 20 2013 07:28 syriuszonito wrote:
As someone who used this a lot I gotta say nice guide.
My two cents:
1. your recommendation not to make upgs - I cannot agree on this one. With this style you are gonna flood a lot of money that ofc you can burn into spines but I find it much more efficient to mass lings as well and use them agressively. You can hit in 2 different places then, set up traps for blink stalkers etc. That 200-300 gas when you are on 8+ gas income is nothing and gives you so much more options.
2. I really believe that at a certain skill lvl this build just stops to work. With a proper counter (parting does it in a game vs nestea - he only lost there coz he didnt scout hidden nesteas base) you just cant win. Thats why I gave up on this style, maybe transitoning to BL would be a better choice.
Perhaps i was unclear, getting ups isnt wrong, but getting upgrades before mutas definitely is. You must delay upgrades for a good while. Any attempt to get upgrades before the first wave of mutas is imo a mistake, you havnt enough power behind your first push to get any contain going and you have a much harder time vs aggression and generally i think delaying them for a pretty long time is more effective, getting a high muta count asap is much more important than ling upgrades.
The parting vs nestea game was pretty unusual, primarily because it was actually a roach > muta game which is much less efficient. Also nesteas insistance on using banelings so much hurt him a lot in that game, he actually got himself pretty far behind with roach muta baneling attacks on partings 3rd before the baserace and had many inefficient trades as the baserace progressed. Banelings definitely have a place with this style but nestea really didnt show good use of them that game. He also capped out at (under 30 mutas i think?) not very high in any case. If nestea used all that gas for mutas not banelings i think he could have won it pretty easily.
Its actually a reasonably bad example of the style but its NesTea who is awesome and there arnt any good pro replays of this anymore. I mostly just wanted to convey the scale of the spine wall you have to build.
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On January 20 2013 07:39 Iksf wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2013 07:28 syriuszonito wrote:
As someone who used this a lot I gotta say nice guide.
My two cents:
1. your recommendation not to make upgs - I cannot agree on this one. With this style you are gonna flood a lot of money that ofc you can burn into spines but I find it much more efficient to mass lings as well and use them agressively. You can hit in 2 different places then, set up traps for blink stalkers etc. That 200-300 gas when you are on 8+ gas income is nothing and gives you so much more options.
2. I really believe that at a certain skill lvl this build just stops to work. With a proper counter (parting does it in a game vs nestea - he only lost there coz he didnt scout hidden nesteas base) you just cant win. Thats why I gave up on this style, maybe transitoning to BL would be a better choice. Perhaps i was unclear, getting ups isnt wrong, but getting upgrades before mutas is definitely. You must delay upgrades for a good while. Any attempt to get upgrades before the first wave of mutas is imo a mistake, you havnt enough power behind your first push to get any contain going and you have a much harder time vs aggression and generally i think delaying them for a pretty long time is more effective, getting a high muta count asap is much more important than ling upgrades. The parting vs nestea game was pretty unusual, primarily because it was actually a roach > muta game which is much less efficient. Also nesteas insistance on using banelings so much hurt him a lot in that game, he actually got himself pretty far behind with roach muta baneling attacks on partings 3rd before the baserace and had many inefficient trades as the baserace progressed. Banelings definitely have a place with this style but nestea really didnt show good use of them that game. He also capped out at (under 30 mutas i think?) not very high in any case. If nestea used all that gas for mutas not banelings i think he could have won it pretty easily. Its actually a reasonably bad example of the style but its NesTea who is awesome and there arnt any good pro replays of this anymore. I mostly just wanted to convey the scale of the spine wall you have to build.
Ok agree that it wasnt a typical game but the problem still stands - how are you going to deal with a toss that has a huge army with colossus to melt your spine wall and one of his bases full of cannons. You cant basetrade and you cant fight his army either
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
As a player very experienced with using mutalisks in zvp, I severely doubt that stopping 7 gate blink is easy with muta ling. Most of the 2 base all ins will also be incredibly hard to stop with your build.
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On January 20 2013 08:01 T.O.P. wrote:
As a player very experienced with using mutalisks in zvp, I severely doubt that stopping 7 gate blink is easy with muta ling. Most of the 2 base all ins will also be incredibly hard to stop with your build.
I would agree. I do basically the exact style that the OP does, and it's given me a ridiculous win rate in ZvP (70%+) at Masters level. However, I generally use roach/ling to stop most 2 base all-ins, as muta/ling often leaves a very thin window where you can actually hold off the attack. The exception is the immortal-sentry all-in, in which muta/spine has worked in every situation that I've tried it in.
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As a protoss player, this can be a very hard style to play against.
So best ways to beat this? In my experience it is scouting. You will have a much harder time scouting w/ a Robo macro opener than with a SG opener though. I usually open Stargate, scout with my first Phoenix. It's getting pretty rare that I can do quite a bit of damage when I wait for 4 phoenix nowadays. IMO building a spire somewhere crazy on the map is really gimmicky... but w/ phoenix to scout you should be able to get a read on what he is doing by extrapolating units you see, # of gas etc, not to mention scouting the map.
So once you've scouted Zerg's first tech path of choice for the midgame, you have a couple options on how to play it.. If you opened SG you can drop a 2nd, start teching towards ranged phoenix and then charge lots. This will beat pure muta/ling especially after you add on templar archives and get storm + archons.
If Z abandons mutas and goes for infestor, templar archives is still the natural progression. If he goes for roaches, chargelot/archon will trade very well. If he goes for Hydra, templar archives is a very good choice obviously.
If you don't want to drop a 2nd SG, then blink stalkers and templar archives with zealots as a mineral sink is very strong as well.
If you did open Robo/twilight, you should be getting blink quickly anyway. If you got a fast third, you are in good shape as you can begin to tech to templar pretty quickly.
I can't emphasize how good storm can be vs mutas. Much better to have a couple templar w/ storm who can merge into archon AFTER casting the storms than to just merge the templar per-emptivly
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nuuu I hate playing against Mutas ;_; no offense but I hope no one uses this against me ♥
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Mutalisk is the reason I am thinking of changing to zerg.
I think mutalisk play is super strong. But important to use them for map control and harassment constantly. They require micro/macro to be useful.
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On January 20 2013 08:01 T.O.P. wrote:
As a player very experienced with using mutalisks in zvp, I severely doubt that stopping 7 gate blink is easy with muta ling. Most of the 2 base all ins will also be incredibly hard to stop with your build.
If theres a 4 gate pressure before it you will have already begun roaches, you just do a totally normal hold for 7g blink with no referance to this guide.
Honestly 7g blink with no 4 gate pressure is the most pathetic build i encounter, even though youv not the best unit comp for the hold its still really easy hence why people always go 4 gate pressure into it. The only map where iv seen people use it reasonably regularly recently is shakuras due to the annoying channels and high grounds. But Shakuras is gone so i barely even consider it anymore.
As for playing against it I really find a decently executed quick 3rd or stargate expansion to be protoss' most solid bet. Im a huge fan of stargate in PvZ for lots of reasons, this is definitely one of them. If were talking 2 base all ins, obviously a vanilla gate attack will be identical to a normal game. The main all in which is notably better vs this than standard roach play is 7 gate warp prism.
Proxying the spire is a gimmick sure im not saying its not, nor am I saying that playing vs stargate with muta relies on hiding your spire. Im just saying this is a method you can use to tip the game in your favour if you dont mind a bit of dice rolling.
Ok I agree that it wasnt a typical game but the problem still stands - how are you going to deal with a toss that has a huge army with colossus to melt your spine wall and one of his bases full of cannons. You cant basetrade and you cant fight his army either
Cannons and stalkers evaporate vs high muta counts instantly. Its literally Muta vs storm, everything else is next to irrelevant, we are talking about a ball of mutas that can literally 3 shot an entire nexus. In that NesTea game he burnt so much money in bad engagements that he didnt have a critical mass of mutalisks, thus parting was able to secure a 3rd with a huge amount of cannons and high templar. If he didnt waste all that money, busting the third would have been reasonably simple and that would have granted him the win pretty easily.
If your in the situation where a protoss has an untouchable army pushing you and enough cannons, templar etc to survive the base trade, you lost quite a while ago.
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On January 20 2013 06:13 shlood wrote:
People think they have to transition and it always screws them over. The only thing I do different is against 1 stargate I generally mix in ~4 corruptors to counter phoenixes and then switch to only mutas (keep making corruptors if he keeps making phoenixes). This shuts down the phoenixes so hard (as long as you keep your mutas and corruptors together)
I want to pull this here out and discuss a bit, since I almost only play Mutalisks in ZvP and nothing else.
Lets address the transitioning bit first. If you've been smart, you've already got upgrades on your melee. Your opponent will want to counter you with heavy anti-air, such as Archon/Storm/Stalker stuff. If you intuitively add a group of Infestor/Ultralisk in the later stages of the game. My army generally ends up looking like this: 40+ Mutalisks, 6 or so Ultras, 6 or so infestors and 20ish banelings.
There is another transition available, which you can go for if you change your pace early. Say you're playing against someone who's turtling up on two bases. In those scenarios, I'll halt Mutalisk production, produce a ton of lings, and transition towards the regular Broodlord/Infestor deathball. Transition is possible, but you've got to be smart about it. Else you risk losing a lot of games where you were miles ahead.
The second bit is the Corruptor Dynamic. If you add the corruptors to a different hotkey, and always keep them between the Mutalisks and the Phoenix, there's absolutely nothing he can do. Versus double stargate, spire play is absolutely reasonable, don't come and act as if its a hardcounter! Simply going Corruptor/Ling roflstomps someone investing heavily into air.
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United Kingdom20278 Posts
Could you post some replays vs immortal all in (and PM me) if you have any where the toss plays well? Im curious to see games where toss hits good timings (~8 sentry 3 immortal at ~8:50, hitting zerg by ~9:50, delayed 15-60 sec perhaps by aggressive engages mid map)
I know muta styles can be extremely strong against more delayed pressure (or such all in's executed by people who are not on PartinG's level, or having practiced them dozens of times being aware of benchmarks), but the strongest immortal all in's will play very zealot heavy (see PartinG) in order to make the initial engages as safely and quickly as possible, and also abuse the warp prism to avoid losing any immortals ever, and safe the lives of most sentries etc in any engage before reaching the zerg base. If you can provide reps of beating such play they would be an amazing asset to zerg and protoss players alike, but i have reasonable expectations i think of straight ling into muta working great vs an average protoss player, while falling apart once all of the timings come down tightly and mistakes are ironed out
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On January 20 2013 05:52 Iksf wrote:
I was surprised at how unsuccessful most of these mutalisk attempts were or I disagreed with how the zerg executed it so I decided to write this.
So you are basically saying you're better than the pros. My guess is that they are facing problems you did not discover yet with your build because of your lower level of play. Saying you know better than the pros can never be right in my opinion.
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On January 20 2013 17:46 Keilkan wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2013 06:13 shlood wrote:
People think they have to transition and it always screws them over. The only thing I do different is against 1 stargate I generally mix in ~4 corruptors to counter phoenixes and then switch to only mutas (keep making corruptors if he keeps making phoenixes). This shuts down the phoenixes so hard (as long as you keep your mutas and corruptors together) I want to pull this here out and discuss a bit, since I almost only play Mutalisks in ZvP and nothing else. Lets address the transitioning bit first. If you've been smart, you've already got upgrades on your melee. Your opponent will want to counter you with heavy anti-air, such as Archon/Storm/Stalker stuff. If you intuitively add a group of Infestor/Ultralisk in the later stages of the game. My army generally ends up looking like this: 40+ Mutalisks, 6 or so Ultras, 6 or so infestors and 20ish banelings. There is another transition available, which you can go for if you change your pace early. Say you're playing against someone who's turtling up on two bases. In those scenarios, I'll halt Mutalisk production, produce a ton of lings, and transition towards the regular Broodlord/Infestor deathball. Transition is possible, but you've got to be smart about it. Else you risk losing a lot of games where you were miles ahead. The second bit is the Corruptor Dynamic. If you add the corruptors to a different hotkey, and always keep them between the Mutalisks and the Phoenix, there's absolutely nothing he can do. Versus double stargate, spire play is absolutely reasonable, don't come and act as if its a hardcounter! Simply going Corruptor/Ling roflstomps someone investing heavily into air.
You cant afford to get upgrades on your melee early or you dont keep the control you need on the protoss thus you dont have upgrades thus transitioning is really hard and definitely inferior.
Corruptors vs single stargate I really dont agree with, if you control your mutas properly you dont need them.
2x stargate is an all in not really a macro build, the problem is that protoss is going to chrono out a good 3-5 rays and kill your third. Your spire is normally not in time for that, hydra is definitely the safe bet vs this, its ridiculously all in anyway so survival = victory.
On January 20 2013 05:52 Iksf wrote:
I was surprised at how unsuccessful most of these mutalisk attempts were or I disagreed with how the zerg executed it so I decided to write this.
So you are basically saying you're better than the pros. My guess is that they are facing problems you did not discover yet with your build because of your lower level of play. Saying you know better than the pros can never be right in my opinion.
I don't think this is the cause, i think it is more that people have been doing fine with infestor broodlord for the past year, most peoples mutalisk experience in ZvP is a good year out of date.
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On January 20 2013 18:23 Cyro wrote:
Could you post some replays vs immortal all in (and PM me) if you have any where the toss plays well? Im curious to see games where toss hits good timings (~8 sentry 3 immortal at ~8:50, hitting zerg by ~9:50, delayed 15-60 sec perhaps by aggressive engages mid map)
I know muta styles can be extremely strong against more delayed pressure (or such all in's executed by people who are not on PartinG's level, or having practiced them dozens of times being aware of benchmarks), but the strongest immortal all in's will play very zealot heavy (see PartinG) in order to make the initial engages as safely and quickly as possible, and also abuse the warp prism to avoid losing any immortals ever, and safe the lives of most sentries etc in any engage before reaching the zerg base. If you can provide reps of beating such play they would be an amazing asset to zerg and protoss players alike, but i have reasonable expectations i think of straight ling into muta working great vs an average protoss player, while falling apart once all of the timings come down tightly and mistakes are ironed out
As i mentioned in the OP I have only a couple of days ladder of replays on my computer having recently formatted and losing a good 8k replays like a moron. But lets talk this through.
The lair starts before 7 for zerg and takes 80 seconds, the spire starts before 8:20 and takes 100 seconds and mutalisks take 33 seconds thus its utterly reasonable to have 15 mutalisks out by 10:30
The sentry immortal push leaves at around 9 with good execution. This also includes near 0 harassment allowing only 2 lings to be built from zerg. So zerg should have been on 3 base saturation before 8 minutes pretty easily, a good bit before. This means that between about 7:50 to about 9:40 the zerg should only be making lings off 3 hatcheries.
That is actually quite a lot of zerglings if you think about it, easily over 60, closer to 100.
The first push out is just basically exclusively immortals and sentries, zealots will be added when the protoss realizes he needs a good 8 or so too push across the map so there is a delay while he adds those. Then as he moves across the map he repeatedly must engage a huge wall of speedlings doing anything they can to burn forcefields, more , on the protoss side of the map there is a serious risk to the protoss of their push actually just dying to this speedling pump so they actually have to burn quite a lot of forcefields.
Eventually ofc the immortal sentry ball becomes to ridiculous to engage and lings do nothing anymore, at this point the zerglings move around to counter at the protoss base. If the protoss is good there should be a full wall and at least 2 cannons and he will probably warp in a sentry or 2. By this point you should have mutas out and spines up. If he goes for the third you win easily, just sacrifice the hatch and abandon third with drones. If he goes for the natural it can be a bit harder but still normally fine.
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I've been using this style for a good couple of months now. At 1.4k masters I have a near 100% winrate with it against any non stargate style coming from the toss.
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Stacking mutalisks with an overlord helps massively for sniping pylons etc.,
Can you explain this?
Also, when toss pushes out on 3 bases, do you usually fight or base trade?
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On January 20 2013 23:21 schwza wrote:Show nested quote +
Stacking mutalisks with an overlord helps massively for sniping pylons etc.,
Can you explain this? Also, when toss pushes out on 3 bases, do you usually fight or base trade?
If you add an overlord into the control group of your mutalisks they stack better, obviously annoying having an overlord follow them around but totally worth it imo.
Depends how large and early the push is, some protoss do some weird like 2.5 base immortal pushes which you can just roll very hard. For normal 3 base timing sized pushes, baserace almost always
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I may have missed it...but do you always get a roach warren with this build for defense. Or just if you scout gates going down?
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On January 20 2013 23:51 abefroman wrote:
I may have missed it...but do you always get a roach warren with this build for defense. Or just if you scout gates going down?
Personally just if i scout gates but im kind of torn on it, because it makes 7g prism much easier to hold.
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awesome! definitely upload some more replays, a immortal timing one would be good
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On January 20 2013 23:15 Moonrisesc wrote:
I've been using this style for a good couple of months now. At 1.4k masters I have a near 100% winrate with it against any non stargate style coming from the toss.
That is pretty damn good.
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On January 20 2013 22:34 Iksf wrote:
Corruptors vs single stargate I really dont agree with, if you control your mutas properly you dont need them.
This is true, but I find just adding a few in just makes it so much easier and does not really cost you much.
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What should my upgrade order be on the spire?
I've been going to +2 attack, then starting carapace.
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definitely +2 attack before carapace. Depends if i get a hive for +3 first or carapace or just neither
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On January 21 2013 04:47 Lobotomist wrote:
awesome! definitely upload some more replays, a immortal timing one would be good
The only immortal timing one i have was a weird game. Was a GM tos and I won pretty easily but it was 4g pressure into it and i screwed a lot of stuff up.
I will add reps of any good games myself or moonrise play from now on.
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United Kingdom20278 Posts
^Your description was pretty solid, but PartinG doesnt really lose to muta. With replays the game or either player can be picked apart, and lots can be gained in terms of defending or executing
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Great guide, thanks!! Do you suggest to either get a blind roach warren or a blind evo for lower league players (high plat here)? At my level about 95% of my games are some sort of 2 base allin (imm sentry, dts or 2x stargate).
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I hate all of you who go mass muta. It's disgusting, you should all be ashamed. T_T
+ Show Spoiler +but seriously that's a great op.  but seriously I hate playing against mutas.
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Finally played a nice long game. Had 80 mutas at the end.
It's incredibly hard to maintain your drone count while doing this. Ended up mining off of 12 gasses, and only 2 base mineral.
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I hate playing against mutas. Its impossible to take a 4th base.
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i'm only high gold, so I suck and the people I play suck too, but does this work in other matchups? Like ZvT for example. I was laddering tonight and I did something similar (not nearly as refined obviously) but i rolled 3 terrans with a group of 35-40 mutas each time. 1-1 or 2-0 upgrades and I harassed them into quitting. I was going ling/bane/muta originally so I had some other defenses, but once i hit that big number of mutas I rolled.
By the time they switched to thors I was able to dart in, kill the thor as it spawned and run out. There's obviously a number of factors of bad play going on in my example but in general would it work?
So basically what I'm asking is, does this work at your level for other matchups?
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On January 21 2013 13:22 MaximusT wrote:
i'm only high gold, so I suck and the people I play suck too, but does this work in other matchups? Like ZvT for example. I was laddering tonight and I did something similar (not nearly as refined obviously) but i rolled 3 terrans with a group of 35-40 mutas each time. 1-1 or 2-0 upgrades and I harassed them into quitting. I was going ling/bane/muta originally so I had some other defenses, but once i hit that big number of mutas I rolled.
By the time they switched to thors I was able to dart in, kill the thor as it spawned and run out. There's obviously a number of factors of bad play going on in my example but in general would it work?
So basically what I'm asking is, does this work at your level for other matchups?
Ling/Bling/Muta is a legitimate mid-game composition vs T, however mass muta isn't very viable, thors, raven seeker missle, and marine/medivac all counter pure muta play.
In ZvZ, if you're going Muta and discover that your opponent is as well, you should usually go into pure muta with upgrades. Otherwise I wouldn't, because a chain fungal on a large ball of mutas means GG
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On January 21 2013 17:56 Mahtasooma wrote:This replay of yours: http://drop.sc/296943is a Stargate play and this replay http://drop.sc/296939the Toss moves out at 9:45 with 4 sentries and has his wall open to a massive ling runby.
Fixed, as i said these are the best replays i can offer atm, they arnt even mine, i literally formatted my computer about 4 days ago i have like 5 ZvP replays max, none of which are really worth posting. But I have held off much better executed 7g robos with no problem. Honestly I dont even really find the earlier ones much harder to defend than the late ones.
On January 21 2013 14:31 terriBean wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2013 13:22 MaximusT wrote:
i'm only high gold, so I suck and the people I play suck too, but does this work in other matchups? Like ZvT for example. I was laddering tonight and I did something similar (not nearly as refined obviously) but i rolled 3 terrans with a group of 35-40 mutas each time. 1-1 or 2-0 upgrades and I harassed them into quitting. I was going ling/bane/muta originally so I had some other defenses, but once i hit that big number of mutas I rolled.
By the time they switched to thors I was able to dart in, kill the thor as it spawned and run out. There's obviously a number of factors of bad play going on in my example but in general would it work?
So basically what I'm asking is, does this work at your level for other matchups? Ling/Bling/Muta is a legitimate mid-game composition vs T, however mass muta isn't very viable, thors, raven seeker missle, and marine/medivac all counter pure muta play. In ZvZ, if you're going Muta and discover that your opponent is as well, you should usually go into pure muta with upgrades. Otherwise I wouldn't, because a chain fungal on a large ball of mutas means GG
Yea this is completely correct mass muta is unviable in the other matchups, other than muta vs muta.
On January 21 2013 08:49 HaVoK12 wrote:
Great guide, thanks!! Do you suggest to either get a blind roach warren or a blind evo for lower league players (high plat here)? At my level about 95% of my games are some sort of 2 base allin (imm sentry, dts or 2x stargate).
Perhaps, I just think you need to make sure your not using blind roach and evo as an excuse to skip on scouting.
On January 21 2013 12:31 InfCereal wrote:
Finally played a nice long game. Had 80 mutas at the end.
It's incredibly hard to maintain your drone count while doing this. Ended up mining off of 12 gasses, and only 2 base mineral.
The first mutalisk pump gets strong map control, once your sure no 2.5 base all in coming you can go up to a pretty high drone count. This lets you build the mineral bank you need to carry you through the game.
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I have no idea how can you write off 7 gate blink as easy to hold with MutaLing.. you're EU so maybe we can try it out?
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On January 21 2013 18:54 Daitro wrote:
I have no idea how can you write off 7 gate blink as easy to hold with MutaLing.. you're EU so maybe we can try it out?
A regular 7g blink hits too late, your 65 drone economy has already pretty much kicked in and you can easily overrun it nomatter what unit composition you have if you macroed correctly in the early game.
As for +1 4g into 7g blink, you have a roach warren out so you can just defend it with roach ling + burrow reasonably easily. 7g blink is definatly not a big threat to this style at all if you droned up properly.
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On January 21 2013 18:54 Daitro wrote:
I have no idea how can you write off 7 gate blink as easy to hold with MutaLing.. you're EU so maybe we can try it out?
Because 7 gate blink is bad now.
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On January 21 2013 18:17 Iksf wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2013 12:31 InfCereal wrote:
Finally played a nice long game. Had 80 mutas at the end.
It's incredibly hard to maintain your drone count while doing this. Ended up mining off of 12 gasses, and only 2 base mineral. The first mutalisk pump gets strong map control, once your sure no 2.5 base all in coming you can go up to a pretty high drone count. This lets you build the mineral bank you need to carry you through the game.
Around when I should I start building the spine forest?
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On January 21 2013 22:54 InfCereal wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2013 18:17 Iksf wrote:On January 21 2013 12:31 InfCereal wrote:
Finally played a nice long game. Had 80 mutas at the end.
It's incredibly hard to maintain your drone count while doing this. Ended up mining off of 12 gasses, and only 2 base mineral. The first mutalisk pump gets strong map control, once your sure no 2.5 base all in coming you can go up to a pretty high drone count. This lets you build the mineral bank you need to carry you through the game. Around when I should I start building the spine forest?
Youv got a good bit of time for building the spine forest. If protoss doesnt push by like 11 mins they cant push for a good while vs mutalisks, youv got a good 3-5 mins of doing whatever you want before protoss becomes scary again, provided you dont lose too many mutas.
The reasoning behind this is pretty simple. Stalkers suck vs mutaling once there are a good amount of mutas out. Templar and archons are the only things he can make that are dangerous. 3 base protoss burning lots of money of stalkers to not die as well as tech is pretty low on gas so they cant get many templar or archons up. If they tech to these units too greedily you can just boss in and wreck a base pretty hard even if you eat a couple of archon shots. Likewise if they try and push without sufficient units in their base they will be forced to retreat by the counter attack before they get half way across the map.
So once theyv commited to AA splash they have to be pretty passive until theyr stable on 3 bases. If they push before this you will win a baserace with ridiculous ease. Likewise if they somehow think they can survive on pure mass stalker, you must build less drones and more lings, but its fine because the low investment in templar tech will hurt him a lot a bit later.
If you contain them properly protoss has very little they can do to you that isnt hugely all in. The really dangerous one is DT but proper preparation nullifies that fine.
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theoretically if a zerg can spend all of his gas into mutas he can snipe the collossi down, which causes him to lose some mutas, but then the zerglings run in after
zerglings with zero collossi in play are massively stronger
i think the reason zergs lose direct engagements with this playstyle is because if they ever engage they send in mutas and lings at the same time
heck, if you scout collossi you can even throw 4-5 corrupters into the muta ball to massively increase the speed at which collossi die
then rush to hive ASAP, get 1-2 ultralisks and now the only toss counter to lings left (forcefields) gets stomped
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On January 22 2013 04:38 bankobauss wrote:
theoretically if a zerg can spend all of his gas into mutas he can snipe the collossi down, which causes him to lose some mutas, but then the zerglings run in after
zerglings with zero collossi in play are massively stronger
i think the reason zergs lose direct engagements with this playstyle is because if they ever engage they send in mutas and lings at the same time
heck, if you scout collossi you can even throw 4-5 corrupters into the muta ball to massively increase the speed at which collossi die
then rush to hive ASAP, get 1-2 ultralisks and now the only toss counter to lings left (forcefields) gets stomped
Good protoss wont use colossus vs mutaling. They will use archons and storm for splash.
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I try your build all the day, and i have a winrate of 50% on diamant EU
very strong, but, against delayed 7g+robo when protoss gone on +1+1.
but if the protoss gone on 3immortal +7/8 sentry out on 9... it's more difficult.
But (againt ) in this case, i'm go on nydus et spine on main base like http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=390763
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I think someone asked for a replay defending the immortal sentry all in.
Just played one. Not sure how high level it is, as I'm on tilt, but masters none the less.
I engaged outside of the spine crawlers because I got antsy.
http://ggtracker.com/matches/1236750
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I've been doing this for the last few days in every ZvP I do, It works wonders in Diamond/Platinum leagues (I've tried it on both NA where I'm diamond and SEA where I'm plat) sometimes it even scares the lower league players into abandoning their immortal all in when they see the lings roaming the map. It's really easy to win vs the immo all in. I'd suggest this over roach ling any day - in my league anyway. It could get dicey in higher leagues. But all I do is use lings to stall while spining natural as suggested and then snipe cyber core and fly back with mutas while lings eat up his base and bring queens down to use some transfuses while targetting spines on stalkers.
The only time I lost with this build was against someone who went for a wonky late twilight into DT (approx 10 minutes DT hit, scouted the twilight researching and thought blink) and then pushed with archons and zealot charge and I lost the base trade.
It'd be interesting to see if the pros adopt this playstyle, it's definitely more fluid and fun than roach ling or infestor broodlord and it'd be nice to see it evolve the metagame up in pro-territory.
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United Kingdom20278 Posts
On January 22 2013 10:55 InfCereal wrote:I think someone asked for a replay defending the immortal sentry all in. Just played one. Not sure how high level it is, as I'm on tilt, but masters none the less. I engaged outside of the spine crawlers because I got antsy. http://ggtracker.com/matches/1236750
Im sorry to say you would have lost this particular game if the toss executed better.
His early game timings, macro and a lot of small details were wrong or bad (he's not trained for this like PartinG, it happens), he moved out 20 sec late with 5 sentries instead of 8, not having mined from the fourth gas and only having 100 gas in bank, his gateway timings were weird and then he hit a supply block for a minute or so at the worst possible time. He also wasted too many forcefields and hung around a lot when he shouldnt have - Your spines were too late to be up, he could have killed one if not two of your bases before the muta pop. It's questionable if you would outright die, but in this game in particular the protoss did not play anywhere near optimally, and i dont believe you could have survived if he did with the way you were playing.
To expand on details a little, it took him 11:00 to reach your thirds creep. He could have done it in 10:00 with the amount of threat you was able to apply with your lings - regardless, he was able to kill the hatch. I know you are fine with sacking it, but if he hadnt had his warp prism horribly out of position he could have forced you to disengage with your mutalisks or killed all of them with the stalker warp in - Perhaps if he hadnt been supply blocked for over a minute, he wouldnt even need this warp in. You took a lead in the game here, but only because his early game was bad, he didnt have as much >stuff< as he was supposed to have, he didnt hit as >fast< as he was supposed to have done and he hit several supply blocks, one really badly. The direct consequence of this is him not being able to do nearly as much damage as he could have done. It is also him losing all of his sentries, the three immortals, the warp prism and quite a few zealots, which put you ahead when you shouldnt have been.
Not only was he not aggressively setting up proxy pylons to use as a primary source of warping in units (with the prism as a backup, used as a micro, flexibility and security tool) he phased the prism between his army and your natural, was forced to back himself to a wall leaving it completely exposed. This is a massive massive no.
I dont mean to arrogantly state something along the lines of "muta ling is not viable blablabla", but execution as you showed it here will not live.
I hope this was informative some
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Hmm, I'm stuck between doing 1 gas @ 5:00 or 3 gas @6:15...
I dunno 3 gas @6:15 probably will net you a higher supply count by around 4-5 drones, but 1 gas @5:00 will get you a spire done a bit before 10 minutes (9:45!).
Since I use the 1 gas @5:00 as my standard right now I'm not in a position to speak with authority about 3 gas @6:15 until I work out all the kinks for that version mechanically...Right now I'm still mechanically stuck on 5:00 gas so I make little mistakes here and there...
I mean I'm still getting above 70 at 8 minutes but only when it's muscle memory will I see how much of an advantage each timing nets.
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On January 22 2013 14:04 Qwyn wrote:
Hmm, I'm stuck between doing 1 gas @ 5:00 or 3 gas @6:15...
I dunno 3 gas @6:15 probably will net you a higher supply count by around 4-5 drones, but 1 gas @5:00 will get you a spire done a bit before 10 minutes (9:45!).
Since I use the 1 gas @5:00 as my standard right now I'm not in a position to speak with authority about 3 gas @6:15 until I work out all the kinks for that version mechanically...Right now I'm still mechanically stuck on 5:00 gas so I make little mistakes here and there...
I mean I'm still getting above 70 at 8 minutes but only when it's muscle memory will I see how much of an advantage each timing nets.
Either one works fine, its totaly personal preference. I use the 5:00 gas myself because it allows for much easier early pressure defense etc and you're still able to have a good number of drones when you need them. I know iksf uses 3x at 6:15 atm tough.
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On January 22 2013 17:16 Moonrisesc wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2013 14:04 Qwyn wrote:
Hmm, I'm stuck between doing 1 gas @ 5:00 or 3 gas @6:15...
I dunno 3 gas @6:15 probably will net you a higher supply count by around 4-5 drones, but 1 gas @5:00 will get you a spire done a bit before 10 minutes (9:45!).
Since I use the 1 gas @5:00 as my standard right now I'm not in a position to speak with authority about 3 gas @6:15 until I work out all the kinks for that version mechanically...Right now I'm still mechanically stuck on 5:00 gas so I make little mistakes here and there...
I mean I'm still getting above 70 at 8 minutes but only when it's muscle memory will I see how much of an advantage each timing nets. Either one works fine, its totaly personal preference. I use the 5:00 gas myself because it allows for much easier early pressure defense etc and you're still able to have a good number of drones when you need them. I know iksf uses 3x at 6:15 atm tough.
First 100 gas for lair if gas is taken at Protoss Natural? or always speed first?
How do you follow that up? 2nd gas when lair starts? 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th when?
Do you know any cheese that opens in the same way as the 3 base, gas @ 5 min does?
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
On January 20 2013 09:17 KAB00000000M wrote:
Mutalisk is the reason I am thinking of changing to zerg.
I think mutalisk play is super strong. But important to use them for map control and harassment constantly. They require micro/macro to be useful.
That's horribly generic :D
Almost every build requires micro/macro to be useful!
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On January 22 2013 19:08 SweKenZo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2013 17:16 Moonrisesc wrote:On January 22 2013 14:04 Qwyn wrote:
Hmm, I'm stuck between doing 1 gas @ 5:00 or 3 gas @6:15...
I dunno 3 gas @6:15 probably will net you a higher supply count by around 4-5 drones, but 1 gas @5:00 will get you a spire done a bit before 10 minutes (9:45!).
Since I use the 1 gas @5:00 as my standard right now I'm not in a position to speak with authority about 3 gas @6:15 until I work out all the kinks for that version mechanically...Right now I'm still mechanically stuck on 5:00 gas so I make little mistakes here and there...
I mean I'm still getting above 70 at 8 minutes but only when it's muscle memory will I see how much of an advantage each timing nets. Either one works fine, its totaly personal preference. I use the 5:00 gas myself because it allows for much easier early pressure defense etc and you're still able to have a good number of drones when you need them. I know iksf uses 3x at 6:15 atm tough. First 100 gas for lair if gas is taken at Protoss Natural? or always speed first? How do you follow that up? 2nd gas when lair starts? 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th when? Do you know any cheese that opens in the same way as the 3 base, gas @ 5 min does?
I get lair first if I can be sure protoss isn't doing a +1 4g, either if I see a tech building, sentries, or an unchronoed core. If I dont see any of those ill get speed first.
There are very few cheeses Z can do off 3 hatches that arent extremely meta, and they usualy take gas a lot earlier.
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5 min gas is too late for any all in from zerg yea.
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On January 22 2013 13:00 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2013 10:55 InfCereal wrote:I think someone asked for a replay defending the immortal sentry all in. Just played one. Not sure how high level it is, as I'm on tilt, but masters none the less. I engaged outside of the spine crawlers because I got antsy. http://ggtracker.com/matches/1236750 Im sorry to say you would have lost this particular game if the toss executed better. His early game timings, macro and a lot of small details were wrong or bad (he's not trained for this like PartinG, it happens), he moved out 20 sec late with 5 sentries instead of 8, not having mined from the fourth gas and only having 100 gas in bank, his gateway timings were weird and then he hit a supply block for a minute or so at the worst possible time. He also wasted too many forcefields and hung around a lot when he shouldnt have - Your spines were too late to be up, he could have killed one if not two of your bases before the muta pop. It's questionable if you would outright die, but in this game in particular the protoss did not play anywhere near optimally, and i dont believe you could have survived if he did with the way you were playing. To expand on details a little, it took him 11:00 to reach your thirds creep. He could have done it in 10:00 with the amount of threat you was able to apply with your lings - regardless, he was able to kill the hatch. I know you are fine with sacking it, but if he hadnt had his warp prism horribly out of position he could have forced you to disengage with your mutalisks or killed all of them with the stalker warp in - Perhaps if he hadnt been supply blocked for over a minute, he wouldnt even need this warp in. You took a lead in the game here, but only because his early game was bad, he didnt have as much >stuff< as he was supposed to have, he didnt hit as >fast< as he was supposed to have done and he hit several supply blocks, one really badly. The direct consequence of this is him not being able to do nearly as much damage as he could have done. It is also him losing all of his sentries, the three immortals, the warp prism and quite a few zealots, which put you ahead when you shouldnt have been. Not only was he not aggressively setting up proxy pylons to use as a primary source of warping in units (with the prism as a backup, used as a micro, flexibility and security tool) he phased the prism between his army and your natural, was forced to back himself to a wall leaving it completely exposed. This is a massive massive no. I dont mean to arrogantly state something along the lines of "muta ling is not viable blablabla", but execution as you showed it here will not live. I hope this was informative some
Obviously the guy has only done the style for a little while its not the most refined build. You seem a bit pessimistic about 7g robo, its pretty accepted that on maps like cloud and ohana a perfectly executed 7g robo is unbeatable with roach ling. Even on maps pretty good for roach ling, holds are pretty mistake reliant and much harder for zerg than protoss.
This build can hold 7g robo at least as well as roach ling for any map and id say for maps like cloud in particular you will do a lot better with this than roach ling, as its pretty map neutral.
On January 22 2013 10:55 InfCereal wrote:I think someone asked for a replay defending the immortal sentry all in. Just played one. Not sure how high level it is, as I'm on tilt, but masters none the less. I engaged outside of the spine crawlers because I got antsy. http://ggtracker.com/matches/1236750
Main points to mention from that replay
Everything is basically fine for early game, little bit of money float but yea not biggest deal.
Lair and speed go down at a pretty good time
Minor note, that spires pretty exposed to warp prisms, consider putting it somewhere safer
Big problem, no gas at 3rd, need to get gas taken before 8 mins. Gates half way complete at 7:30 isnt threatening. Generally underdrone a bit, just need more refined early game.
If you had the extra 3/4 mutas from the gas from your third you would have crushed the push a good bit harder, hold still leaves you a good bit ahead though.
Generally underexploit the timing window between when you hold the push and blink finishes, you have a long time to exploit the lack of blink and generally low stalker count. Never pull your mutalisks back to your half of the map if you can help it. You need to have your mutalisks aggressivly positioned to exploit protoss mistakes at any point. If he randomly moved out here you would have to find your way around his army to his base, makes it much easier for him. Good use of creep drop on third
Good harass a bit later, stay on a bit of a low drone count though. Once again you pull your mutas back defensivly from a push, at around 16 mins, in this scenario you should bank around into the protoss 4th and behind his third to open a counter attack path for yourself.
17:40, your going for an attack that looks really successful, scouting protoss units in center you pull back, definitely wrong call imo. Pushing in there would have been a good way to open a baserace. Low drone count means you dont have as much mineral bank as you could have, would have made basetrade much more viable if you could throw down 20 more spines in your natural.
After engagement at your 3rd the critical mass of mutas leave you in a near unlosable situation, this is why people who skip templar die pretty fast in longer games if they cant get lots of damage done.
Put some effort into keeping control of the far tower, if hes pulling his stalkers back to defend his main that means any zealot or w/e at the tower is undefended letting you take it easily. Keeping strong map control stops you getting flanked by blink like you did at around 21 mins.
Final fight your lings are all fighting zealots. Any damage they can do or take from stalkers is better, manually move them to be attacking stalkers whenever possible. Obviously that fight was really one sided so not necessary but in closer engages can help a lot.
So yea TL;DR,
Take gas at 3rd
Drone a bit harder in early game and a lot harder after youv got map control.
Keep mutas more aggressively positioned.
Example of a similar game of mine vs a partial hold of a 7g robo. Screwed up the hold quite a bit, mostly because of my crap macro for first few games of a day. So became somewhat even.
http://ggtracker.com/matches/1249773
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United Kingdom20278 Posts
Obviously the guy has only done the style for a little while its not the most refined build. You seem a bit pessimistic about 7g robo, its pretty accepted that on maps like cloud and ohana a perfectly executed 7g robo is unbeatable with roach ling. Even on maps pretty good for roach ling, holds are pretty mistake reliant and much harder for zerg than protoss.
This build can hold 7g robo at least as well as roach ling for any map and id say for maps like cloud in particular you will do a lot better with this than roach ling, as its pretty map neutral.
Im not being pessimistic, im being realistic. I think there are ways to force muta to work or at least take the game later without being too far behind, but making lings, engaging him 1-2 times on map with them and waiting for mutas to pop at 11:30 is simply not good enough. I guess you're playing at mid masters and because of the ladder system averaging MMR's between races (insane vs zerg WR not able to make me find better zerg opponents because of other shortcomings) i dont have much experience against zergs at quite that high level, but i have put easily 50 hours of my life into studying this all in. You cannot hold if you play the way you did in the first replay.
Example of a similar game of mine vs a partial hold of a 7g robo. Screwed up the hold quite a bit, mostly because of my crap macro for first few games of a day. So became somewhat even. http://ggtracker.com/matches/1249773
I wanted to say here, too, protoss simply didnt execute what he was doing anywhere near as effectively as he should have/could have done. This chrono boost utilization and overlap is pretty disgusting for such a refined pressure<allin. The amount of things he does wrong or notably inefficiently go into the dozens, i wont list them here, but holding immortal all in's from this caliber of players tells you nothing of the way you are playing being viable at the highest level. I feel that you could hit somebody in a bo7 who has studied and practiced such an all in to near perfection and if that happened you would have no choice but to very significantly change your approach to defense, change styles completely or simply lose every game in the series - you probably wouldnt blindly do something like this every game, but you are relying on your opponent not having any kind of optimized play in the 5-10 minute window of the game in order to live and come out ahead
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/GD02hrz.png)
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I appreciate the feedback. I haven't used mutas since infestors took over the metagame, so this is all very unrefined for me.
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On January 22 2013 23:22 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote + Obviously the guy has only done the style for a little while its not the most refined build. You seem a bit pessimistic about 7g robo, its pretty accepted that on maps like cloud and ohana a perfectly executed 7g robo is unbeatable with roach ling. Even on maps pretty good for roach ling, holds are pretty mistake reliant and much harder for zerg than protoss.
This build can hold 7g robo at least as well as roach ling for any map and id say for maps like cloud in particular you will do a lot better with this than roach ling, as its pretty map neutral. Im not being pessimistic, im being realistic. I think there are ways to force muta to work or at least take the game later without being too far behind, but making lings, engaging him 1-2 times on map with them and waiting for mutas to pop at 11:30 is simply not good enough. I guess you're playing at mid masters and because of the ladder system averaging MMR's between races (insane vs zerg WR not able to make me find better zerg opponents because of other shortcomings) i dont have much experience against zergs at quite that high level, but i have put easily 50 hours of my life into studying this all in. You cannot hold if you play the way you did in the first replay. I wanted to say here, too, protoss simply didnt execute what he was doing anywhere near as effectively as he should have/could have done. This chrono boost utilization and overlap is pretty disgusting for such a refined pressure<allin. The amount of things he does wrong or notably inefficiently go into the dozens, i wont list them here, but holding immortal all in's from this caliber of players tells you nothing of the way you are playing being viable at the highest level. I feel that you could hit somebody in a bo7 who has studied and practiced such an all in to near perfection and if that happened you would have no choice but to very significantly change your approach to defense, change styles completely or simply lose every game in the series - you probably wouldnt blindly do something like this every game, but you are relying on your opponent not having any kind of optimized play in the 5-10 minute window of the game in order to live and come out ahead
The protoss was rank 30 GM, just saying.
I dont know what the hell you want from me, I cant just list a buildorder that will defeat parting 100% if you follow it and this concept can beat a parting level player if you execute it as like a DRG level player.
You can beat any 7g robo iv ever played against with this, from plenty of GM and high master protoss. Thats all i care about.
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On January 22 2013 23:59 Iksf wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2013 23:22 Cyro wrote: Obviously the guy has only done the style for a little while its not the most refined build. You seem a bit pessimistic about 7g robo, its pretty accepted that on maps like cloud and ohana a perfectly executed 7g robo is unbeatable with roach ling. Even on maps pretty good for roach ling, holds are pretty mistake reliant and much harder for zerg than protoss.
This build can hold 7g robo at least as well as roach ling for any map and id say for maps like cloud in particular you will do a lot better with this than roach ling, as its pretty map neutral. Im not being pessimistic, im being realistic. I think there are ways to force muta to work or at least take the game later without being too far behind, but making lings, engaging him 1-2 times on map with them and waiting for mutas to pop at 11:30 is simply not good enough. I guess you're playing at mid masters and because of the ladder system averaging MMR's between races (insane vs zerg WR not able to make me find better zerg opponents because of other shortcomings) i dont have much experience against zergs at quite that high level, but i have put easily 50 hours of my life into studying this all in. You cannot hold if you play the way you did in the first replay. Example of a similar game of mine vs a partial hold of a 7g robo. Screwed up the hold quite a bit, mostly because of my crap macro for first few games of a day. So became somewhat even. http://ggtracker.com/matches/1249773I wanted to say here, too, protoss simply didnt execute what he was doing anywhere near as effectively as he should have/could have done. This chrono boost utilization and overlap is pretty disgusting for such a refined pressure<allin. The amount of things he does wrong or notably inefficiently go into the dozens, i wont list them here, but holding immortal all in's from this caliber of players tells you nothing of the way you are playing being viable at the highest level. I feel that you could hit somebody in a bo7 who has studied and practiced such an all in to near perfection and if that happened you would have no choice but to very significantly change your approach to defense, change styles completely or simply lose every game in the series - you probably wouldnt blindly do something like this every game, but you are relying on your opponent not having any kind of optimized play in the 5-10 minute window of the game in order to live and come out ahead The protoss was rank 30 GM, just saying.
I feel it's also important to note that these guides aren't written for the top 10 people in the world, but rather the 99% below them.
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On January 22 2013 23:59 Iksf wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2013 23:22 Cyro wrote: Obviously the guy has only done the style for a little while its not the most refined build. You seem a bit pessimistic about 7g robo, its pretty accepted that on maps like cloud and ohana a perfectly executed 7g robo is unbeatable with roach ling. Even on maps pretty good for roach ling, holds are pretty mistake reliant and much harder for zerg than protoss.
This build can hold 7g robo at least as well as roach ling for any map and id say for maps like cloud in particular you will do a lot better with this than roach ling, as its pretty map neutral. Im not being pessimistic, im being realistic. I think there are ways to force muta to work or at least take the game later without being too far behind, but making lings, engaging him 1-2 times on map with them and waiting for mutas to pop at 11:30 is simply not good enough. I guess you're playing at mid masters and because of the ladder system averaging MMR's between races (insane vs zerg WR not able to make me find better zerg opponents because of other shortcomings) i dont have much experience against zergs at quite that high level, but i have put easily 50 hours of my life into studying this all in. You cannot hold if you play the way you did in the first replay. Example of a similar game of mine vs a partial hold of a 7g robo. Screwed up the hold quite a bit, mostly because of my crap macro for first few games of a day. So became somewhat even. http://ggtracker.com/matches/1249773I wanted to say here, too, protoss simply didnt execute what he was doing anywhere near as effectively as he should have/could have done. This chrono boost utilization and overlap is pretty disgusting for such a refined pressure<allin. The amount of things he does wrong or notably inefficiently go into the dozens, i wont list them here, but holding immortal all in's from this caliber of players tells you nothing of the way you are playing being viable at the highest level. I feel that you could hit somebody in a bo7 who has studied and practiced such an all in to near perfection and if that happened you would have no choice but to very significantly change your approach to defense, change styles completely or simply lose every game in the series - you probably wouldnt blindly do something like this every game, but you are relying on your opponent not having any kind of optimized play in the 5-10 minute window of the game in order to live and come out ahead The protoss was rank 30 GM, just saying.
You can point out flaws in the play of every protoss player that is basically not a korean called Rain, Parting, Hero, Creator, you use numbers that are so called optimal while in the real world aka NA and EU GM and high masters just don't happen. Look at Elfi for example or any other "relevant" tosshe won a tournament, pretty sure you can point out some pretty big holes in some of his pvz games.
Also, checkmate....
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United Kingdom20278 Posts
On January 22 2013 23:59 Iksf wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2013 23:22 Cyro wrote: Obviously the guy has only done the style for a little while its not the most refined build. You seem a bit pessimistic about 7g robo, its pretty accepted that on maps like cloud and ohana a perfectly executed 7g robo is unbeatable with roach ling. Even on maps pretty good for roach ling, holds are pretty mistake reliant and much harder for zerg than protoss.
This build can hold 7g robo at least as well as roach ling for any map and id say for maps like cloud in particular you will do a lot better with this than roach ling, as its pretty map neutral. Im not being pessimistic, im being realistic. I think there are ways to force muta to work or at least take the game later without being too far behind, but making lings, engaging him 1-2 times on map with them and waiting for mutas to pop at 11:30 is simply not good enough. I guess you're playing at mid masters and because of the ladder system averaging MMR's between races (insane vs zerg WR not able to make me find better zerg opponents because of other shortcomings) i dont have much experience against zergs at quite that high level, but i have put easily 50 hours of my life into studying this all in. You cannot hold if you play the way you did in the first replay. Example of a similar game of mine vs a partial hold of a 7g robo. Screwed up the hold quite a bit, mostly because of my crap macro for first few games of a day. So became somewhat even. http://ggtracker.com/matches/1249773I wanted to say here, too, protoss simply didnt execute what he was doing anywhere near as effectively as he should have/could have done. This chrono boost utilization and overlap is pretty disgusting for such a refined pressure<allin. The amount of things he does wrong or notably inefficiently go into the dozens, i wont list them here, but holding immortal all in's from this caliber of players tells you nothing of the way you are playing being viable at the highest level. I feel that you could hit somebody in a bo7 who has studied and practiced such an all in to near perfection and if that happened you would have no choice but to very significantly change your approach to defense, change styles completely or simply lose every game in the series - you probably wouldnt blindly do something like this every game, but you are relying on your opponent not having any kind of optimized play in the 5-10 minute window of the game in order to live and come out ahead The protoss was rank 30 GM, just saying. I dont know what the hell you want from me, I cant just list a buildorder that will defeat parting 100% if you follow it and this concept can beat a parting level player if you execute it as like a DRG level player. You can beat any 7g robo iv ever played against with this, from plenty of GM and high master protoss. Thats all i care about.
Just stating that this does not in its current form come close to working to anybody against anybody who has an idea what they are doing and puts 20 hours into practicing to get close to perfect execution. You only win because it's nowhere close to perfect (not even in the same ballpark) and i think its more useful to know that than to state that you can hold anything and he left wondering whats up when you get thrown to the trash by those occasional people who have actually practiced such an all in for any real period of time. You clearly dont want my help, so guess im leaving now
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On January 23 2013 00:08 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2013 23:59 Iksf wrote:On January 22 2013 23:22 Cyro wrote: Obviously the guy has only done the style for a little while its not the most refined build. You seem a bit pessimistic about 7g robo, its pretty accepted that on maps like cloud and ohana a perfectly executed 7g robo is unbeatable with roach ling. Even on maps pretty good for roach ling, holds are pretty mistake reliant and much harder for zerg than protoss.
This build can hold 7g robo at least as well as roach ling for any map and id say for maps like cloud in particular you will do a lot better with this than roach ling, as its pretty map neutral. Im not being pessimistic, im being realistic. I think there are ways to force muta to work or at least take the game later without being too far behind, but making lings, engaging him 1-2 times on map with them and waiting for mutas to pop at 11:30 is simply not good enough. I guess you're playing at mid masters and because of the ladder system averaging MMR's between races (insane vs zerg WR not able to make me find better zerg opponents because of other shortcomings) i dont have much experience against zergs at quite that high level, but i have put easily 50 hours of my life into studying this all in. You cannot hold if you play the way you did in the first replay. Example of a similar game of mine vs a partial hold of a 7g robo. Screwed up the hold quite a bit, mostly because of my crap macro for first few games of a day. So became somewhat even. http://ggtracker.com/matches/1249773I wanted to say here, too, protoss simply didnt execute what he was doing anywhere near as effectively as he should have/could have done. This chrono boost utilization and overlap is pretty disgusting for such a refined pressure<allin. The amount of things he does wrong or notably inefficiently go into the dozens, i wont list them here, but holding immortal all in's from this caliber of players tells you nothing of the way you are playing being viable at the highest level. I feel that you could hit somebody in a bo7 who has studied and practiced such an all in to near perfection and if that happened you would have no choice but to very significantly change your approach to defense, change styles completely or simply lose every game in the series - you probably wouldnt blindly do something like this every game, but you are relying on your opponent not having any kind of optimized play in the 5-10 minute window of the game in order to live and come out ahead The protoss was rank 30 GM, just saying. I dont know what the hell you want from me, I cant just list a buildorder that will defeat parting 100% if you follow it and this concept can beat a parting level player if you execute it as like a DRG level player. You can beat any 7g robo iv ever played against with this, from plenty of GM and high master protoss. Thats all i care about. Just stating that this does not in its current form come close to working to anybody against anybody who has an idea what they are doing and puts 20 hours into practicing to get close to perfect execution. You only win because it's nowhere close to perfect (not even in the same ballpark) and i think its more useful to know that than to state that you can hold anything and he left wondering whats up when you get thrown to the trash by those occasional people who have actually practiced such an all in for any real period of time. You clearly dont want my help, so guess im leaving now
If I can hold pushes executed in GM league I consider the build viable. Could i beat partings? probably not because parting is a korean pro gamer who practices like 10 hours a day, I have college and stuff to go to and have as much talent as a dead fish, nor could I hold it with roach ling for the same reasons.
However if i was to hit parting in some playhem or something and he immortal sentried me id throw everything into this style without hesitation. The build has been basically unholdable with roach ling either and by people way better than me.
If you want to call a build unviable because a korean progamers super refined basically imbalanced all in can kill it, then the entire ZvP metagame is unviable on half the map pool and we should all switch races.
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It's builds like this that make me want to throw my
Keyboard out the window in pvz
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On January 23 2013 01:51 IamPryda wrote:
It's builds like this that make me want to throw my
Keyboard out the window in pvz
Haha. And that's why we love to go mutas. Make you stall so you either leave or get behind.
The worst thing is when my mutas get hunted down and I see the T starting to move out. This is when I know I am playing against a master +.
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There was a time when I was getting nuts from muta play. Then I learned to defend it reasonably and it became much more rare, so it stopped being such a huge pain. Nowadays, when I see a muta player, I know that it is going to be annoying as hell and I am not gonna enjoy the game too much, but I may come ahead in the end.
With one exception: people playing like you! If somebody knows that they should stay on mutas forever without a transition, I have no fucking clue what to do. The problem is that no "simple" things work any more. Canons are pointless, so are stalkers and the only thing that is remotely usefull and HTs that are slow and fragile as fuck.
I think that this build is an example that SC2 can never be balanced for all skill levels - I still quite believe that it is balanced at pro level, but in Platinum league, I am pretty sure that most of the people that I can beat day and night when they go roach-infestor to BL would roll me over, if they only realized that they can just build mutalisks.
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I like most of the guide, but I'm kind of on the fence about a few aspects of it. By delaying upgrades and taking lots of gas quick you're relying on the first wave of mutalisks being unscouted and doing a lot of damage. This makes it seem coinflippy and unreliable. I feel that it's much safer to get 1/1 while the spire is building, since it's only 2.5 less mutalisks but it opens some huge 2/2 muta/ling/bane timings before storm and stuff.
The way I see it is there's three ways to play mutalisks in ZvP:
1) Only make ~10 or so to harass while fast teching to hive.
2) Mass mutalisks and only mutalisks and try to kill your opponent with pure mutalisks, like in this guide.
3) Use mutalisks to force the stalker/templar techpath, then try to hit a pre-storm timing with banelings.
I really like 3; the 2-2 speedbane timing is so strong that if they don't have storm out, they kind of lose. Does anyone have a lot of experience with this type of push? Similar to the ZvT one that Shine/NesTea used a lot in their up+down matches, but with a faster fourth, more drones, and more mutalisks!
I think that if you snipe the sentries with the mutalisks, you can just roll speedbanes through their nexus and still have enough left to kill their army. Thoughts?
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On Wings I was top 8 master. Play low Gm's too.
Just came back to wings, from hots to try out your style.
And I have won 90% with the build.
The skipping evo upgrades, really does allow for more muta when you really need them. and faster muta upgrades
Plus. the BM was priceless.
GJ, I will work with it more!
EDIT:
Also. the 1 game I did lose. I lost because I decided to transition.
all the other games, which I stayed on muta tech no mater what. I won
^_^
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i wanna ask a question,
i may have been asked already...
What if protoss go heavy phoenix?
Phoenix vs mutas, phoenix win right? or?
You mix in those other flying for zerg?
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On January 23 2013 02:06 opisska wrote:
There was a time when I was getting nuts from muta play. Then I learned to defend it reasonably and it became much more rare, so it stopped being such a huge pain. Nowadays, when I see a muta player, I know that it is going to be annoying as hell and I am not gonna enjoy the game too much, but I may come ahead in the end.
With one exception: people playing like you! If somebody knows that they should stay on mutas forever without a transition, I have no fucking clue what to do. The problem is that no "simple" things work any more. Canons are pointless, so are stalkers and the only thing that is remotely usefull and HTs that are slow and fragile as fuck.
I think that this build is an example that SC2 can never be balanced for all skill levels - I still quite believe that it is balanced at pro level, but in Platinum league, I am pretty sure that most of the people that I can beat day and night when they go roach-infestor to BL would roll me over, if they only realized that they can just build mutalisks.
Yea PvMutalisk is a totally different branch of the PvZ metagame, one rotting in some musty tome on the top shelf. Very few protoss have good experience vs it
On January 23 2013 02:26 Mavvie wrote:
I like most of the guide, but I'm kind of on the fence about a few aspects of it. By delaying upgrades and taking lots of gas quick you're relying on the first wave of mutalisks being unscouted and doing a lot of damage. This makes it seem coinflippy and unreliable. I feel that it's much safer to get 1/1 while the spire is building, since it's only 2.5 less mutalisks but it opens some huge 2/2 muta/ling/bane timings before storm and stuff.
The way I see it is there's three ways to play mutalisks in ZvP:
1) Only make ~10 or so to harass while fast teching to hive.
2) Mass mutalisks and only mutalisks and try to kill your opponent with pure mutalisks, like in this guide.
3) Use mutalisks to force the stalker/templar techpath, then try to hit a pre-storm timing with banelings.
I really like 3; the 2-2 speedbane timing is so strong that if they don't have storm out, they kind of lose. Does anyone have a lot of experience with this type of push? Similar to the ZvT one that Shine/NesTea used a lot in their up+down matches, but with a faster fourth, more drones, and more mutalisks!
I think that if you snipe the sentries with the mutalisks, you can just roll speedbanes through their nexus and still have enough left to kill their army. Thoughts?
For 1) I dont find mutas are worth the investment, better to just go infestor ling. Iv little experience with 3 just think that spamming out a wall of FF + the hp of gates etc absorbing banelings would make these attacks very ineffective. Perhaps they could work but theyr a bit too all in for my liking.
As for the upgrades, skipping them is really essential imo. Getting up to a good mutalisk count fast is very important and the more mutas you have early let you be more aggressive without losing mutalisks.
I dont find this build is hardcounterable by protoss if they scout well, its just actually hard for them to deal with 15 mutas @ 10:30 and about like 30 by 14 mins if you dont lose any. They have to try defend 3 locations with a bunch of stalkers, which arnt that good vs mutas to start with and commonly dont have blink for the first poke with the mutas, while also protecting from ling runbys and teching to templar. Thats before they even can consider putting any pressure back onto zerg.
On January 23 2013 02:43 BuiBui wrote:
On Wings I was top 8 master. Play low Gm's too.
Just came back to wings, from hots to try out your style.
And I have won 90% with the build.
The skipping evo upgrades, really does allow for more muta when you really need them. and faster muta upgrades
Plus. the BM was priceless.
GJ, I will work with it more!
EDIT:
Also. the 1 game I did lose. I lost because I decided to transition.
all the other games, which I stayed on muta tech no mater what. I won
^_^
You do get some priceless BM from protoss winning with this.
Trying to transition is the best way to throw won games. The logic is pretty sound, storm good spell, if im a retard i could lose all my mutas even if im really ahead, broodlord infestor is largely mistake proof when your ahead. But the second you relent with the mutalisk aggression protoss can really get back in the game, not to mention it opens a pretty big all in timing window for them.
Anyway glad you like it.
On January 23 2013 02:57 Foxxan wrote:
i wanna ask a question,
i may have been asked already...
What if protoss go heavy phoenix?
Phoenix vs mutas, phoenix win right? or?
You mix in those other flying for zerg?
There is a section for dealing with stargate openers. For like reactive stargates the lack of investment in stalkers and time that takes to get up is enough to do loads of damage.
Phoenix 1 on 1 beats a mutalisk but vs anything but double stargate you should have at least double the muta count of phoenix.
Phoenix also outrange mutas but the range differance is only 1. This means running away from the following phoenixs and then sharply turning for a couple of volleys and running away again once the phoenixs back out. Even with proper micro from protoss zerg can defeat phoenixs like this.
Ranged phoenix or massive amounts of phoenix require a transition. Both can be destroyed by a combination of fungal, to lock them down, and mutalisk, to close in on the fungalled phoenix and kill. A complete tech switch out of mutas is also viable vs stargate.
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Excellent. To expand upon our conversation in PM.
When do you like to throw down another spire for upgrades.
I think I have been doing \so when I get maxed with muta ling.
3/3 mutas are quite good at base trading lol.
also. I found myself slowing getting evo ups, until 3 3.
However, I think just saving that gas and getting greater spire and BL's might be better?
when do you get greater spire? after 3//3 and you are floating like 9k min?
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Iv never been in a position where i think getting a greater spire is anything but a waste of money honestly. You should probably get a second spire when you start your hive as your +2 should be done by then, allowing you to get +1 + some armor. Honestly im pretty vague about all this lategame stuff games play out so differently I just do what I think will be best at the time. As for upgrades for lings i start adding them in when i first max though theyr pretty low priority.
Lings ultras and banes have pretty low usage with my style. I only rarely use them when basically I think a protoss should have left the game and I just need to smash his army up with little care to efficiency. Obviously sometimes its nice to be able to make lings and have them be a bit useful though.
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On January 23 2013 02:57 Foxxan wrote:
i wanna ask a question,
i may have been asked already...
What if protoss go heavy phoenix?
Phoenix vs mutas, phoenix win right? or?
You mix in those other flying for zerg?
Reactive stargate (after seeing muta tech) almost never works, so forget about that.
If it's a stargate opener, the protoss should have an initial squad of 4-5 phoenixes and see the spire, or at least see the first wave of mutas pop--it's his job to scout whether it's infestors, mutas, or something else. So, at worst, the protoss should see the initial group of mutas hatch and react to that. This is the appropriate transition:
Don't lose phoenixes trying to fight the mutas. Just slow them down while you tech to range.
1. Get a Beacon (cut EVERYTHING for this)
2. Resume Phoenix production and boost it
3. When gas allows, get another SG
4. When Beacon finishes, start range IMMEDIATELY and boost it 2-3 times (3 is ideal; 2 if you can't manage that while microing).
If you have the gas banked (perhaps from canceling some other tech), get +1 air weapons. If you can't afford that while teching range and constantly, just focus on getting to range and staying alive. Sometimes you need to warp in a couple of stalkers to deter the muta flock before you have range.
When you get range, hunt all the mutas down or force them to hide over queens and spores. Get chargelots and go hit a big timing with zealot/phoenix...or if the zerg makes 892374827489237894 spines, deny his expansions and tech/expand. But usually, someone who masses mutas will have a real problem if the phoenixes are preserved and they get range...eventually, the mutas will die/hide and the phoenixes can kill so much of the zerg's economy before he gets infestors (if he techs that route).
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I think the transition problem exists simply because you have to pay for more mutas when they die so you have to factor in your macro how many mutas still survive. I think people sometimes try to go to force some engagements and get really far behind in gas. I'm not saying you should be more conservative, because toss will surely get to the deathball on 3 bases and you will straight up lose. I'm saying, go for targets that are free as much as possible and not lose gas units or gas bases.
Going Muta on 3 bases gives you an opportunity to double expand, meaning you can focus on having 10 geysers mining to be able to bank up on gas. The rest should go to spines on crucial locations. The reason behind the double expand is because any good opponent will turtle heavily for a long time and not go on a tilt and attack.
I still believe in keeping up with melee upgrades, as long as I don't lose a lot of my mutas.
If you can keep the muta count at a good amount
I must admit, 75% of my wins against protoss are mass muta and spines. I can feel how the transition can be perilous. Maybe its the way you free up supply, whether it is making more static defenses or doing small counter attacks..
TLDR: In freeing up supply and teching, it must be done slowly and gradually, not getting them as fast as possible. Mass spines is your friend. Think of the 4th and 5th bases as taking gas you don't deserve at the time, just stealing them. 
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High gold here nothing special, just tried this out for the first time, and just got so BM after doing this LOL. He even pylon blocked/cannoned my natural ramp (whoops didn't build a few lings) and killed my natural. He came out with a much delayed immortal sentry, warp prism push, so I just laid down 2 1/2 layers of spines like you said, picked off his warp prism and went and attacked. I forgot to upgrade mutas, which would have helped a ton, but I picked off his workers and stalkers until I was confident, and took him out. Feels good to get some revenge on some sentries =). Fun style to play against toss, espescally after I have been doing Filters roach style for a while. Thanks man! This is going to be even more fun once I get it down, my execution sucked having not practiced it, but it still worked out.
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Looking for more replays. I'm trying to make this my main build in zvp and it would be nice to get my timings down better.
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Hi, I'm usually a lurker (no pun intended since I play Zerg ) but I will definitely give this a try. So essentially its 3 hatch standard opener -> mass mutas (skipping roach warren and upgrades initially).
I know this was probably covered but how do you deal with mass Stalkers then? One blink under your mass of mutas means death to your air force doesn't it? Or do you just constant non-stop harass and pick off Stalkers since Mutas numbers are too much (so essentially never engage in a head-on fight)?
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Hey, I'm also curious about the gas timings. If you do 3 gas at 6:10, when are the other 3? If you do 1 gas at 5:00, when are the other 5? If you do 3 gas at 6:10, I think you have to do lair, then speed, then spire. If you do 1 gas at 5:00, are you getting speed or spire first?
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Mass stalker isn't a threat to mass muta. In a straight up engagement stalkers might win initialy, however the protoss will have to spread them out to keep all his bases alive against the muta ball. Observer snipes benefit you greately as it'll be even harder for the protoss to have the correct number of stalkers present to even detter your mutas. As you get more bases you'll eventualy be able to just 1a over a pure stalker army no matter now many stalkers protoss has. Templar are the real danger, you have to outmicro and outposition the toss if he gets enough of them up.
As for gas timings, I'm pretty sure the OP includes that he adds 3 at 6:15 and 3 more at 7:45, I personally don't value the clock too much for my gas, but I gues 6:15 and 7:45 is a good benchmark.
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This build is just so insanely powerful and unstoppable.
I usually lose 80% of the time versus protoss when I try to go infestors but with mutas, I simply go 4th and 5th base with gas
and do anything I want. With this build, I now win 100% versus protoss. I still transition but I free up supply gradually and build a million spines in all attack paths.
Usually protoss just dies with a build order mistake or their existence in the game just becomes more longer and painful.
Thanks OP for letting me come back to this. Especially now I can't win with infestors being small dick range...
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muta ling has been around for ages but im curious to some of your timings. i dont think u can get 3 base fully saturated before the immortal allin comes.
the best way in my exp of holding the immortal all in has been the threat of counter attack which naturally requires you to pre-produce a large amount of lings and then use the mutas to bust the front blocking unit/sentrys defending and then win since u have more dps then they do and spines to stall in main
i do agree transitioning doesnt work as well as people assume. the only way you can transition is if you trade armys and both sides get reduced to virtually nothing and then again why would u ever bother? you shouldnt win against vortex but clutch play wins in basetrades
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On January 24 2013 18:58 sunglasseson wrote:
muta ling has been around for ages but im curious to some of your timings. i dont think u can get 3 base fully saturated before the immortal allin comes.
the best way in my exp of holding the immortal all in has been the threat of counter attack which naturally requires you to pre-produce a large amount of lings and then use the mutas to bust the front blocking unit/sentrys defending and then win since u have more dps then they do and spines to stall in main
i do agree transitioning doesnt work as well as people assume. the only way you can transition is if you trade armys and both sides get reduced to virtually nothing and then again why would u ever bother? you shouldnt win against vortex but clutch play wins in basetrades
You can infact be fully saturated before the immortal allin hits and defend it very easily as long as you give up your 3'd base. You can easily snipe both P's nexi with a muta counter while turtelling behind a wall of spines. The immortal allin is actualy a lot easier to defend with this than with any roach based hold.
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those immortal allins were slow. very very slow
they both didnt even move out till 10:30 or 11mins where as the build should hit at 9:30 10. that being said muta ling counters immortal sentry and i dont think any toss will win if thats the build they are going
also droning to saturate a 3rd is "risky" because a good toss is gonna stop you from seeing exactly what hes doing and what happens when they do a 4 gate +1 3rd hatch zerg down
idn im far more conservative when i muta ling'd simply because not losing before 10mins usually just means i won.
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A good zerg can easily scout if the toss is going to do early pressure or not, also you should be saturated before 8:30 which leaves you enough time to make lings and delay the immortal push.
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good makes no play here. maps determine ease of scout
i just watched sniper lose to 8 gate lol. not everything can be scouted
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as mentioned in the OP, any kind of mass gateway attack could easily be determined by the overlord seeing no gas the natural. And the response is just to make roaches and lings.
I think early gateway attack is a really bad strategy because its so easy to scout. I'd be more concerned scouting gases at the natural and not knowing exactly what is going on, I'd have to send in the two overlords. Deathballing safely on 4 bases is the only way the toss can win. Sometimes they don't win though.
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On January 24 2013 19:27 sunglasseson wrote:
good makes no play here. maps determine ease of scout
i just watched sniper lose to 8 gate lol. not everything can be scouted
Yes and he definatly lost that because he didn't scout it.
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As a Protoss I have to say this style is a nightmare.
I never understood who not all Zergs do it, if I play against high master Protoss (I am high M EU too) I usually have like 50% winrate, when I play Zerg I use this style and basically never lost.
I am pretty sure that this is as broken as one thing can be (hence Protoss was promised the anti-Muta Tempest with HotS).
I really think the key is to never engage the Protoss main army. Constant harrasment will sooner or later lead to a lot of Probekills which will force Protoss into a 3Base all in. That means you will just get a million Spines and kill all his buildings.
I am pretty sure that only a Stargate opening provides the chance to win against it.
I have switched to HotS 2 weeks back and Mutas are way more popular there. If they stay this way anyone who follows this guide will get 100% winrate in ZvP outside of GM league or tournaments..
If anyone gets beaten using this strategy on high level I would be very interested in the replay!
But you should not lose because of your own mistakes. Obviously missing an inject here and there or having a few more Overmins than you would like is not that big a deal, however you should not throw away any Mutas or take a fight you lose.
Anyway OP, I hate you for making this guide, I also love you for doing it because I hope that someday Protoss will get a good unit vs Mutas. So far only Templars are good but the HotS Mutas just laugh at them with more Movespeed and Regeneration. -_-
Also, against Immortal/Sentry all-ins I would rather get the Spines at the top of the main ramp and go for a basetrade, you should either get up like 20 Spines and hold your main or Protoss will ignore your third and you can use those drones to get up 2 more hatches. Then at some point Protoss will be forced to split his army in order to hunt your buildings and protect his own at the same time. Usually you can just kill both armies ezpz.
In a basetrade you want to kill buildings in this order
1. Cybercore
2. Forge
3. Nexi
4. Pylons
5. Whatever, you already won!
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Saw Stephano use this style yesterday. Hard countered by Protoss with Archon & HT. Storm is scareful, and if your micro is not good, you end up losing most of mutas. And then you cannot keep him in his base and lose to his attack
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If you do 3 gas at 6:10 and 3 more gas at 7:45 and you do everything completely perfectly and mine the max possible gas from every geyser of 116.19/minute (which is slightly more than is actually possible for some geysers, according this thread), here is what you can do:
- lair starts at 6:58, finishes at 8:18
- speed starts at 7:15, finishes at 9:05
- spire starts at 8:18, finishes at 9:58
- start 13 mutas at 9:58, finish at 10:31 (48 gas leftover)
I don't know what the standard gas timings are with a 5:00 first gas, but I looked at adding 2 more gas at 6:20, then three more gas at 8:00.
That gives you
- speed starts 6:18, finishes at 8:08
- lair starts 6:58, finishes at 8:18
- spire starts at 8:18, finishes at 9:58
- start 13 mutas at 9:58, finish at 10:31 (58 gas leftover)
No idea how much your mineral economy is hurt doing the second build compared to the first.
If you want faster (but fewer) muta, you could do gas at 5:00, 2 more gas at 6:20, 3 more gas at 7:55 to get
- lair starts 6:18, finishes at 7:38
- speed starts 6:58, finishes at 8:48
- spire starts at 7:38, finishes at 9:18
- start 9 mutas at 9:18, finish at 9:51 (22 gas leftover)
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On January 20 2013 05:52 Iksf wrote:
2 Stargate. This is the hard counter to this style. Fortunately this build is normally awful, relatively unused and easy to scout. Just abandon this do a roach hydra push or something you’ll be fine.
Usually when i am facing 2 stargate phoenix, i am building spores and defending phoenixes for good several minutes while still trying to drone. In best case scenario they kill only 20 drones and when i build my roach + hydra army he already got 2 collossus, so it's pretty much pointless at this point.
Am i doing something wrong? :/
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On January 25 2013 03:14 Alpina wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2013 05:52 Iksf wrote:
2 Stargate. This is the hard counter to this style. Fortunately this build is normally awful, relatively unused and easy to scout. Just abandon this do a roach hydra push or something you’ll be fine.
Usually when i am facing 2 stargate phoenix, i am building spores and defending phoenixes for good several minutes while still trying to drone. In best case scenario they kill only 20 drones and when i build my roach + hydra army he already got 2 collossus, so it's pretty much pointless at this point. Am i doing something wrong? :/
Your probably not building enough spores
Vs phoenix you just want to be pretty liberal with spores, their DPS is awful and only 1 spore per base barely gives protoss any more pause than no spores. Once your safe vs that you can proceed to drone up to about 65 then do a roach max, or add in some hydras if he is going voids.
On January 25 2013 01:38 schwza wrote:If you do 3 gas at 6:10 and 3 more gas at 7:45 and you do everything completely perfectly and mine the max possible gas from every geyser of 116.19/minute (which is slightly more than is actually possible for some geysers, according this thread), here is what you can do: - lair starts at 6:58, finishes at 8:18 - speed starts at 7:15, finishes at 9:05 - spire starts at 8:18, finishes at 9:58 - start 13 mutas at 9:58, finish at 10:31 (48 gas leftover) I don't know what the standard gas timings are with a 5:00 first gas, but I looked at adding 2 more gas at 6:20, then three more gas at 8:00. That gives you - speed starts 6:18, finishes at 8:08 - lair starts 6:58, finishes at 8:18 - spire starts at 8:18, finishes at 9:58 - start 13 mutas at 9:58, finish at 10:31 (58 gas leftover) No idea how much your mineral economy is hurt doing the second build compared to the first. If you want faster (but fewer) muta, you could do gas at 5:00, 2 more gas at 6:20, 3 more gas at 7:55 to get - lair starts 6:18, finishes at 7:38 - speed starts 6:58, finishes at 8:48 - spire starts at 7:38, finishes at 9:18 - start 9 mutas at 9:18, finish at 9:51 (22 gas leftover)
Yea seems about right, im not really big on this whole analysis thing perhaps there is a one true best gas timing, but personally i just play it as it feels right to me.
On January 24 2013 21:44 MasterDrone wrote:
Saw Stephano use this style yesterday. Hard countered by Protoss with Archon & HT. Storm is scareful, and if your micro is not good, you end up losing most of mutas. And then you cannot keep him in his base and lose to his attack
Protoss should be using this comp but if you can contain and harass them well the protoss doesnt have enough gas to make it work.
On January 24 2013 21:00 rEalGuapo wrote:
As a Protoss I have to say this style is a nightmare.
I never understood who not all Zergs do it, if I play against high master Protoss (I am high M EU too) I usually have like 50% winrate, when I play Zerg I use this style and basically never lost.
I am pretty sure that this is as broken as one thing can be (hence Protoss was promised the anti-Muta Tempest with HotS).
I really think the key is to never engage the Protoss main army. Constant harrasment will sooner or later lead to a lot of Probekills which will force Protoss into a 3Base all in. That means you will just get a million Spines and kill all his buildings.
I am pretty sure that only a Stargate opening provides the chance to win against it.
I have switched to HotS 2 weeks back and Mutas are way more popular there. If they stay this way anyone who follows this guide will get 100% winrate in ZvP outside of GM league or tournaments..
If anyone gets beaten using this strategy on high level I would be very interested in the replay!
But you should not lose because of your own mistakes. Obviously missing an inject here and there or having a few more Overmins than you would like is not that big a deal, however you should not throw away any Mutas or take a fight you lose.
Anyway OP, I hate you for making this guide, I also love you for doing it because I hope that someday Protoss will get a good unit vs Mutas. So far only Templars are good but the HotS Mutas just laugh at them with more Movespeed and Regeneration. -_-
Also, against Immortal/Sentry all-ins I would rather get the Spines at the top of the main ramp and go for a basetrade, you should either get up like 20 Spines and hold your main or Protoss will ignore your third and you can use those drones to get up 2 more hatches. Then at some point Protoss will be forced to split his army in order to hunt your buildings and protect his own at the same time. Usually you can just kill both armies ezpz.
In a basetrade you want to kill buildings in this order
1. Cybercore
2. Forge
3. Nexi
4. Pylons
5. Whatever, you already won!
Spines at top of the main arnt normally necessary. If you screw something up and suspect you cant hold your natural because your behind obviously yea its a great idea as attacking up that ramp is crazily inefficient. If you try hold while throwing your 3rd and natural your pretty all in with your anti all in (if that makes sense?)
On January 24 2013 19:14 sunglasseson wrote:
those immortal allins were slow. very very slow
they both didnt even move out till 10:30 or 11mins where as the build should hit at 9:30 10. that being said muta ling counters immortal sentry and i dont think any toss will win if thats the build they are going
also droning to saturate a 3rd is "risky" because a good toss is gonna stop you from seeing exactly what hes doing and what happens when they do a 4 gate +1 3rd hatch zerg down
idn im far more conservative when i muta ling'd simply because not losing before 10mins usually just means i won.
On January 24 2013 19:27 sunglasseson wrote:
good makes no play here. maps determine ease of scout
i just watched sniper lose to 8 gate lol. not everything can be scouted
You can scout 7 gates fine. Sniper just screwed up, even code S champions screw up sometimes.
Most Immortal sentry pushes leave after 9:15 on EU or NA. If people try push too fast they have lots of trouble vs the lings anyway, much safer for them to get a couple more units up instead of trying to hit the ultimate timing.
The redic early pushes used to be really common but more recently roach ling people normally sit outside the protoss base with a few roaches and some lings now to deal with that, when the immortals and sentries move out they are either killed or forced back. Pushing at a more sane time is just overall better currently.
On January 23 2013 14:07 dproberts55 wrote:
High gold here nothing special, just tried this out for the first time, and just got so BM after doing this LOL. He even pylon blocked/cannoned my natural ramp (whoops didn't build a few lings) and killed my natural. He came out with a much delayed immortal sentry, warp prism push, so I just laid down 2 1/2 layers of spines like you said, picked off his warp prism and went and attacked. I forgot to upgrade mutas, which would have helped a ton, but I picked off his workers and stalkers until I was confident, and took him out. Feels good to get some revenge on some sentries =). Fun style to play against toss, espescally after I have been doing Filters roach style for a while. Thanks man! This is going to be even more fun once I get it down, my execution sucked having not practiced it, but it still worked out.
On January 24 2013 08:18 HaVoK12 wrote:
Looking for more replays. I'm trying to make this my main build in zvp and it would be nice to get my timings down better.
On January 24 2013 18:02 Discarder wrote:
This build is just so insanely powerful and unstoppable.
I usually lose 80% of the time versus protoss when I try to go infestors but with mutas, I simply go 4th and 5th base with gas
and do anything I want. With this build, I now win 100% versus protoss. I still transition but I free up supply gradually and build a million spines in all attack paths.
Usually protoss just dies with a build order mistake or their existence in the game just becomes more longer and painful.
Thanks OP for letting me come back to this. Especially now I can't win with infestors being small dick range...
Im glad you guys like it ^_^
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On January 24 2013 21:44 MasterDrone wrote:
Saw Stephano use this style yesterday. Hard countered by Protoss with Archon & HT. Storm is scareful, and if your micro is not good, you end up losing most of mutas. And then you cannot keep him in his base and lose to his attack
For sure, but it's still a viable way to play ZvP. But if you are outmicroed, yes, you loose.
No matchup should have a strategy which would give 100% winrate. (Like was the lingfestor into BL rush back in the times...)
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On January 25 2013 03:37 Insoleet wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2013 21:44 MasterDrone wrote:
Saw Stephano use this style yesterday. Hard countered by Protoss with Archon & HT. Storm is scareful, and if your micro is not good, you end up losing most of mutas. And then you cannot keep him in his base and lose to his attack For sure, but it's still a viable way to play ZvP. But if you are outmicroed, yes, you loose. No matchup should have a strategy which would give 100% winrate. (Like was the lingfestor into BL rush back in the times...)
Yea this is very true. It can be easy to get your mutalisks in bad positions and protoss can definitely win, especially if your sloppy. However I find its always pretty clear what you did wrong, the problem almost always being insufficient map control leading to bad positional decisions; which is something you can always work on improving.
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On January 25 2013 03:29 Iksf wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2013 03:14 Alpina wrote:On January 20 2013 05:52 Iksf wrote:
2 Stargate. This is the hard counter to this style. Fortunately this build is normally awful, relatively unused and easy to scout. Just abandon this do a roach hydra push or something you’ll be fine.
Usually when i am facing 2 stargate phoenix, i am building spores and defending phoenixes for good several minutes while still trying to drone. In best case scenario they kill only 20 drones and when i build my roach + hydra army he already got 2 collossus, so it's pretty much pointless at this point. Am i doing something wrong? :/ Your probably not building enough spores Vs phoenix you just want to be pretty liberal with spores, their DPS is awful and only 1 spore per base barely gives protoss any more pause than no spores. Once your safe vs that you can proceed to drone up to about 65 then do a roach max, or add in some hydras if he is going voids.
Hmm sounds expensive, so that's minimum 6 spores and even then i'll prolly lose drones cause he can usually just tank spores with that many phoenixes.
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United Kingdom20278 Posts
On January 24 2013 21:44 MasterDrone wrote:
Saw Stephano use this style yesterday. Hard countered by Protoss with Archon & HT. Storm is scareful, and if your micro is not good, you end up losing most of mutas. And then you cannot keep him in his base and lose to his attack
I think stephano was playing gas before third hatch (or even spires before third hatch started) in at least some of his games though. That completely changes everything
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Playing vs this makes me want to kill myself
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Mass Mutas is absolutely insane in HOTS, mostly because there is very little risk to harassing with them (since you have the sick regen). I stormed an entire clump of mutalisks down to red hp, followed up immediately with a push and got crushed because the mutalisks were pretty much full hp once I got to my opponent's base. Once you get viper's its even better because it prevents stalkers from shooting, forcing you to blink away and expose all of your important units (like HT's, Archons, Collosus, Immortals).
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What do you do against archon toilet? Just don't get vortexed?
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On January 27 2013 00:55 schwza wrote:
What do you do against archon toilet? Just don't get vortexed?
There's absolutely no one they would be able to get to a suitable archon/mothership army against mass mutas. They would simply die.
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On January 27 2013 02:30 InfCereal wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2013 00:55 schwza wrote:
What do you do against archon toilet? Just don't get vortexed? There's absolutely no one they would be able to get to a suitable archon/mothership army against mass mutas. They would simply die.
Yea only maps iv seen protoss manage it are like entombed because its so good for defending. But even then by the time they cant get a mothership out for a while by which time theyr pretty reliant on a sick vortex. Good unit and map control can prevent this pretty easily though good use of a mothership is a good way for protoss to try get up a 4th
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I feel like double spire is a really nice addition to this style.
How do you feel about this?
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On January 24 2013 21:00 rEalGuapo wrote:
As a Protoss I have to say this style is a nightmare.
I never understood who not all Zergs do it, if I play against high master Protoss (I am high M EU too) I usually have like 50% winrate, when I play Zerg I use this style and basically never lost.
I am pretty sure that this is as broken as one thing can be (hence Protoss was promised the anti-Muta Tempest with HotS).
I really think the key is to never engage the Protoss main army. Constant harrasment will sooner or later lead to a lot of Probekills which will force Protoss into a 3Base all in. That means you will just get a million Spines and kill all his buildings.
I am pretty sure that only a Stargate opening provides the chance to win against it.
I have switched to HotS 2 weeks back and Mutas are way more popular there. If they stay this way anyone who follows this guide will get 100% winrate in ZvP outside of GM league or tournaments..
If anyone gets beaten using this strategy on high level I would be very interested in the replay!
But you should not lose because of your own mistakes. Obviously missing an inject here and there or having a few more Overmins than you would like is not that big a deal, however you should not throw away any Mutas or take a fight you lose.
Anyway OP, I hate you for making this guide, I also love you for doing it because I hope that someday Protoss will get a good unit vs Mutas. So far only Templars are good but the HotS Mutas just laugh at them with more Movespeed and Regeneration. -_-
Also, against Immortal/Sentry all-ins I would rather get the Spines at the top of the main ramp and go for a basetrade, you should either get up like 20 Spines and hold your main or Protoss will ignore your third and you can use those drones to get up 2 more hatches. Then at some point Protoss will be forced to split his army in order to hunt your buildings and protect his own at the same time. Usually you can just kill both armies ezpz.
In a basetrade you want to kill buildings in this order
1. Cybercore
2. Forge
3. Nexi
4. Pylons
5. Whatever, you already won!
Zergs stopped to do that because Protosses learned to mass blink stalkers with good ups with high templars. If Zerg commit heavily on mutas, this protoss composition counters pretty much anything the zerg will follow muta with. Storm > banelings, lings and roaches, feedback > infestors. If Zerg commits heavily on mutas, he cant have hive tech units. That's about it.
So minerals on probes and cannons, gas on stalkers and templars and you should be fine, because Zerg cant max on an army you should die to. It requires protoss to play really well.
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If you're interested in countering immortal all-in + playing muta zvp, definetly try ST.Life's recent muta build.
Standard 15 pool 16 hatch thing, get lings to push the scout back, but dont take your third, instead take a gas once you've you queen started and you've used every larva. Try to not let the protoss know u're 2 basing.
Make lair with first 100 gas and take a second gas as you start lair, then 3rd gas as your second gas is finishing, same for the 4rth gas.
Make spire then ling speed then 3rd. This hit SO early protoss will not even have 2 immortals when you attack them, so they're pretty much forced to defend and they're pretty screwed at that point.
Life transition after the first 8 mutas (no air upgrades) into infestor/ling/roach/hive/4rth. His mutas are a guarantee of getting a ton of probe kills and forcing protoss to go blink stalker heavy + cannons, which means mutas ALWAYS pay for themselves. Most protosses will 2 base all-in as a response once they have 3 canons each mineral line, not even trying to take a 3rd. And their all in is easily shut down because u'll be maxed on 70 drones and infestors roaches lings.
Since you're 2 basing, protoss allining would be a bad idea but if they do anything like gate agression, you can spine your natural, make roach warren and be fine (they cant push through spines and mutas will kill their mineral line soon enough).
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Im not a zerg, but hasnt protoss always had trouble with mass mutas?
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On January 27 2013 23:06 Natalya wrote:
If you're interested in countering immortal all-in + playing muta zvp, definetly try ST.Life's recent muta build.
Standard 15 pool 16 hatch thing, get lings to push the scout back, but dont take your third, instead take a gas once you've you queen started and you've used every larva. Try to not let the protoss know u're 2 basing.
Make lair with first 100 gas and take a second gas as you start lair, then 3rd gas as your second gas is finishing, same for the 4rth gas.
Make spire then ling speed then 3rd. This hit SO early protoss will not even have 2 immortals when you attack them, so they're pretty much forced to defend and they're pretty screwed at that point.
Life transition after the first 8 mutas (no air upgrades) into infestor/ling/roach/hive/4rth. His mutas are a guarantee of getting a ton of probe kills and forcing protoss to go blink stalker heavy + cannons, which means mutas ALWAYS pay for themselves. Most protosses will 2 base all-in as a response once they have 3 canons each mineral line, not even trying to take a 3rd. And their all in is easily shut down because u'll be maxed on 70 drones and infestors roaches lings.
Since you're 2 basing, protoss allining would be a bad idea but if they do anything like gate agression, you can spine your natural, make roach warren and be fine (they cant push through spines and mutas will kill their mineral line soon enough).
Protoss shouldnt be immortal sentry all inning vs 2 base zerg players anyway, the ones who are are basically build order monkeys. Well controlled 2 base infestor ling dominates immo sentry pretty hard and protoss have to worry about a large variety of 2 base all ins making their push weaker.
The problem with 2 base mutalisk is that the muta count doesnt ramp up particularly quickly, so if you dont do a good bit of damage with first wave your in a pretty bad spot. Also stargate is redic good vs 2 base mutalisk.
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On January 28 2013 00:18 Iksf wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2013 23:06 Natalya wrote:
If you're interested in countering immortal all-in + playing muta zvp, definetly try ST.Life's recent muta build.
Standard 15 pool 16 hatch thing, get lings to push the scout back, but dont take your third, instead take a gas once you've you queen started and you've used every larva. Try to not let the protoss know u're 2 basing.
Make lair with first 100 gas and take a second gas as you start lair, then 3rd gas as your second gas is finishing, same for the 4rth gas.
Make spire then ling speed then 3rd. This hit SO early protoss will not even have 2 immortals when you attack them, so they're pretty much forced to defend and they're pretty screwed at that point.
Life transition after the first 8 mutas (no air upgrades) into infestor/ling/roach/hive/4rth. His mutas are a guarantee of getting a ton of probe kills and forcing protoss to go blink stalker heavy + cannons, which means mutas ALWAYS pay for themselves. Most protosses will 2 base all-in as a response once they have 3 canons each mineral line, not even trying to take a 3rd. And their all in is easily shut down because u'll be maxed on 70 drones and infestors roaches lings.
Since you're 2 basing, protoss allining would be a bad idea but if they do anything like gate agression, you can spine your natural, make roach warren and be fine (they cant push through spines and mutas will kill their mineral line soon enough). Protoss shouldnt be immortal sentry all inning vs 2 base zerg players anyway, the ones who are are basically build order monkeys. Well controlled 2 base infestor ling dominates immo sentry pretty hard and protoss have to worry about a large variety of 2 base all ins making their push weaker. The problem with 2 base mutalisk is that the muta count doesnt ramp up particularly quickly, so if you dont do a good bit of damage with first wave your in a pretty bad spot. Also stargate is redic good vs 2 base mutalisk.
Well, he did address your last concern. Life just gets the 8 mutas out to do probe harassment and force the protoss into unfavorable composition while he builds up a bunch of ling/roach/infestor to go kill the heavy blink-stalker force.
if you force protoss to make cannons that is that many less units he will have to deal with your push at his natural that comes after the 8-9 mutas.
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United Kingdom20278 Posts
Make spire then ling speed then 3rd. This hit SO early protoss will not even have 2 immortals when you attack them
How are you hitting at like 7:40?
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On January 27 2013 23:06 Natalya wrote:
If you're interested in countering immortal all-in + playing muta zvp, definetly try ST.Life's recent muta build.
Standard 15 pool 16 hatch thing, get lings to push the scout back, but dont take your third, instead take a gas once you've you queen started and you've used every larva. Try to not let the protoss know u're 2 basing.
Make lair with first 100 gas and take a second gas as you start lair, then 3rd gas as your second gas is finishing, same for the 4rth gas.
Make spire then ling speed then 3rd. This hit SO early protoss will not even have 2 immortals when you attack them, so they're pretty much forced to defend and they're pretty screwed at that point.
Life transition after the first 8 mutas (no air upgrades) into infestor/ling/roach/hive/4rth. His mutas are a guarantee of getting a ton of probe kills and forcing protoss to go blink stalker heavy + cannons, which means mutas ALWAYS pay for themselves. Most protosses will 2 base all-in as a response once they have 3 canons each mineral line, not even trying to take a 3rd. And their all in is easily shut down because u'll be maxed on 70 drones and infestors roaches lings.
Since you're 2 basing, protoss allining would be a bad idea but if they do anything like gate agression, you can spine your natural, make roach warren and be fine (they cant push through spines and mutas will kill their mineral line soon enough).
Replay/VODs seem necessary because whoever he was facing did a terrible job of scouting. Life does win a lot of games because a lot of pros cut corners with their scouting.
If you don't take a third in front of the protoss's face, it's up to him to go out there and double-check your third. That's not very hard--all it takes is a zealot or two or zealot/stalker poke to check the third and then go home. Sometimes, the immo/sentry push comes after a +1 zealot pressure--the pressure is going to see no third and then immediately turn around and lead to a followup which acknowledges the potential for mutas.
And you basically have to plan to go fast lair on 2base before you see whether it's a Robo or any other kind of tech, so if the toss doesn't do the immo-sentry push at all--even if he assumes you have a third--the other options for him are so much more dangerous for you. He could go stargate and have 4 phoenixes out by the time you have mutas. He could go twilight for a +2 blink-based composition for map control. He could go double forge mass-gate play--which is really coming into fashion now that armor and shield upgrades are infinitely better against infested terrans. You don't know what he's going to do. So basically, this build is gambling heavily on the protoss doing one specific 2-base push, not seeing your lack of a third base, and not preparing for a fairly obvious 2-base muta play.
It's fine to use aggressive styles and to put on pressure, but if you're actually assuming 2-base muta play will always kill probes, you don't know what you're talking about. There are no guarantees. That's the whole point of the game. Sometimes attacks work, and sometimes they get denied.
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On January 28 2013 13:23 ineversmile wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2013 23:06 Natalya wrote:
If you're interested in countering immortal all-in + playing muta zvp, definetly try ST.Life's recent muta build.
Standard 15 pool 16 hatch thing, get lings to push the scout back, but dont take your third, instead take a gas once you've you queen started and you've used every larva. Try to not let the protoss know u're 2 basing.
Make lair with first 100 gas and take a second gas as you start lair, then 3rd gas as your second gas is finishing, same for the 4rth gas.
Make spire then ling speed then 3rd. This hit SO early protoss will not even have 2 immortals when you attack them, so they're pretty much forced to defend and they're pretty screwed at that point.
Life transition after the first 8 mutas (no air upgrades) into infestor/ling/roach/hive/4rth. His mutas are a guarantee of getting a ton of probe kills and forcing protoss to go blink stalker heavy + cannons, which means mutas ALWAYS pay for themselves. Most protosses will 2 base all-in as a response once they have 3 canons each mineral line, not even trying to take a 3rd. And their all in is easily shut down because u'll be maxed on 70 drones and infestors roaches lings.
Since you're 2 basing, protoss allining would be a bad idea but if they do anything like gate agression, you can spine your natural, make roach warren and be fine (they cant push through spines and mutas will kill their mineral line soon enough). Replay/VODs seem necessary because whoever he was facing did a terrible job of scouting. Life does win a lot of games because a lot of pros cut corners with their scouting. If you don't take a third in front of the protoss's face, it's up to him to go out there and double-check your third. That's not very hard--all it takes is a zealot or two or zealot/stalker poke to check the third and then go home. Sometimes, the immo/sentry push comes after a +1 zealot pressure--the pressure is going to see no third and then immediately turn around and lead to a followup which acknowledges the potential for mutas. And you basically have to plan to go fast lair on 2base before you see whether it's a Robo or any other kind of tech, so if the toss doesn't do the immo-sentry push at all--even if he assumes you have a third--the other options for him are so much more dangerous for you. He could go stargate and have 4 phoenixes out by the time you have mutas. He could go twilight for a +2 blink-based composition for map control. He could go double forge mass-gate play--which is really coming into fashion now that armor and shield upgrades are infinitely better against infested terrans. You don't know what he's going to do. So basically, this build is gambling heavily on the protoss doing one specific 2-base push, not seeing your lack of a third base, and not preparing for a fairly obvious 2-base muta play. It's fine to use aggressive styles and to put on pressure, but if you're actually assuming 2-base muta play will always kill probes, you don't know what you're talking about. There are no guarantees. That's the whole point of the game. Sometimes attacks work, and sometimes they get denied.
^This, a lot of what life does only works because his opponents are cutting corners in tournaments to get slight edges and wouldn't really work on ladder with average unit control.
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On January 28 2013 19:30 Moonrisesc wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2013 13:23 ineversmile wrote:On January 27 2013 23:06 Natalya wrote:
If you're interested in countering immortal all-in + playing muta zvp, definetly try ST.Life's recent muta build.
Standard 15 pool 16 hatch thing, get lings to push the scout back, but dont take your third, instead take a gas once you've you queen started and you've used every larva. Try to not let the protoss know u're 2 basing.
Make lair with first 100 gas and take a second gas as you start lair, then 3rd gas as your second gas is finishing, same for the 4rth gas.
Make spire then ling speed then 3rd. This hit SO early protoss will not even have 2 immortals when you attack them, so they're pretty much forced to defend and they're pretty screwed at that point.
Life transition after the first 8 mutas (no air upgrades) into infestor/ling/roach/hive/4rth. His mutas are a guarantee of getting a ton of probe kills and forcing protoss to go blink stalker heavy + cannons, which means mutas ALWAYS pay for themselves. Most protosses will 2 base all-in as a response once they have 3 canons each mineral line, not even trying to take a 3rd. And their all in is easily shut down because u'll be maxed on 70 drones and infestors roaches lings.
Since you're 2 basing, protoss allining would be a bad idea but if they do anything like gate agression, you can spine your natural, make roach warren and be fine (they cant push through spines and mutas will kill their mineral line soon enough). Replay/VODs seem necessary because whoever he was facing did a terrible job of scouting. Life does win a lot of games because a lot of pros cut corners with their scouting. If you don't take a third in front of the protoss's face, it's up to him to go out there and double-check your third. That's not very hard--all it takes is a zealot or two or zealot/stalker poke to check the third and then go home. Sometimes, the immo/sentry push comes after a +1 zealot pressure--the pressure is going to see no third and then immediately turn around and lead to a followup which acknowledges the potential for mutas. And you basically have to plan to go fast lair on 2base before you see whether it's a Robo or any other kind of tech, so if the toss doesn't do the immo-sentry push at all--even if he assumes you have a third--the other options for him are so much more dangerous for you. He could go stargate and have 4 phoenixes out by the time you have mutas. He could go twilight for a +2 blink-based composition for map control. He could go double forge mass-gate play--which is really coming into fashion now that armor and shield upgrades are infinitely better against infested terrans. You don't know what he's going to do. So basically, this build is gambling heavily on the protoss doing one specific 2-base push, not seeing your lack of a third base, and not preparing for a fairly obvious 2-base muta play. It's fine to use aggressive styles and to put on pressure, but if you're actually assuming 2-base muta play will always kill probes, you don't know what you're talking about. There are no guarantees. That's the whole point of the game. Sometimes attacks work, and sometimes they get denied. ^This, a lot of what life does only works because his opponents are cutting corners in tournaments to get slight edges and wouldn't really work on ladder with average unit control.
Yea a lot of Lifes stuff is pretty damn weird. Its funny watching how he reduces his opponents really refined builds into slop by throwing them into really weird situations under pressure.
Life is definitely the best zerg atm but for learning actual solid reliable styles hes the last person you should look at.
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Are you planning on posting more replays vs other types of protoss openings?
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I saw one mention this, but as it went unanswered ill repeat the question. I take for granted that muta upgrades shuld be started instantly, but how about a second spire at around 11-12min when the contain is established? If 2/1 should be done at about 14min a reasonably fast hive to start 3/2 would scale rediciously with the mutaball. Maybe even out-upgrade the stalkers. The later is obviously not going to happen vs double forge but the possibility is still there.
Nice guide. Came over this to late at night making me unable to play. Will dedicate my thoughts to this vs math in a procent ratio of hundred-to-zero tomorrow.
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On January 30 2013 07:56 rPontare wrote:
I saw one mention this, but as it went unanswered ill repeat the question. I take for granted that muta upgrades shuld be started instantly, but how about a second spire at around 11-12min when the contain is established? If 2/1 should be done at about 14min a reasonably fast hive to start 3/2 would scale rediciously with the mutaball. Maybe even out-upgrade the stalkers. The later is obviously not going to happen vs double forge but the possibility is still there.
Nice guide. Came over this to late at night making me unable to play. Will dedicate my thoughts to this vs math in a procent ratio of hundred-to-zero tomorrow.
Im not sure what I think about it. Obviously double ups are good for muta survival and all but you shouldnt be taking many direct fights. Il play with it see what I decide I like better.
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On January 30 2013 08:34 Iksf wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2013 07:56 rPontare wrote:
I saw one mention this, but as it went unanswered ill repeat the question. I take for granted that muta upgrades shuld be started instantly, but how about a second spire at around 11-12min when the contain is established? If 2/1 should be done at about 14min a reasonably fast hive to start 3/2 would scale rediciously with the mutaball. Maybe even out-upgrade the stalkers. The later is obviously not going to happen vs double forge but the possibility is still there.
Nice guide. Came over this to late at night making me unable to play. Will dedicate my thoughts to this vs math in a procent ratio of hundred-to-zero tomorrow. Im not sure what I think about it. Obviously double ups are good for muta survival and all but you shouldnt be taking many direct fights. Il play with it see what I decide I like better.
Regardless of the number of spires, would one prioritize the armor before attack for survivability or the other way around? Its always nice to burst down small clusters of stalkers or buildings, and the attack scales so good with the numbers. Though, the carapace would minimize the losses you take every time you are escaping blink or dodging a storm.
All and all this is exciting stuff. Thanks.
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Carapace is better for dealing with units that have a high rate of fire. In the case of protoss antiair, that includes cannons, phoenixes, and carriers. It is somewhat useful against stalkers, but most of the time stalkers will lead into a storm/archon transition, and armor is useless against those two things. Carapace is also better if you intend to go into broodlord/corruptor, since the upgrade carries over throughout that transition.
Air attack is better for doing a higher burst damage, in the case of fighting lower firing rate units/spellcasters, or for hit-and-run attacks where your defense is your ability to fly away when the protoss reinforces wherever you're attacking. In the case of protoss units, this means any kind of harassment against probes/building, any time you use your mutas to pick off a small group of units on the map, sniping HTs, and sniping stray archons. Basically, air attack is best used for hit-and-run and for fighting where your opponent is weak.
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On January 28 2013 19:30 Moonrisesc wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2013 13:23 ineversmile wrote:On January 27 2013 23:06 Natalya wrote:
If you're interested in countering immortal all-in + playing muta zvp, definetly try ST.Life's recent muta build.
Standard 15 pool 16 hatch thing, get lings to push the scout back, but dont take your third, instead take a gas once you've you queen started and you've used every larva. Try to not let the protoss know u're 2 basing.
Make lair with first 100 gas and take a second gas as you start lair, then 3rd gas as your second gas is finishing, same for the 4rth gas.
Make spire then ling speed then 3rd. This hit SO early protoss will not even have 2 immortals when you attack them, so they're pretty much forced to defend and they're pretty screwed at that point.
Life transition after the first 8 mutas (no air upgrades) into infestor/ling/roach/hive/4rth. His mutas are a guarantee of getting a ton of probe kills and forcing protoss to go blink stalker heavy + cannons, which means mutas ALWAYS pay for themselves. Most protosses will 2 base all-in as a response once they have 3 canons each mineral line, not even trying to take a 3rd. And their all in is easily shut down because u'll be maxed on 70 drones and infestors roaches lings.
Since you're 2 basing, protoss allining would be a bad idea but if they do anything like gate agression, you can spine your natural, make roach warren and be fine (they cant push through spines and mutas will kill their mineral line soon enough). Replay/VODs seem necessary because whoever he was facing did a terrible job of scouting. Life does win a lot of games because a lot of pros cut corners with their scouting. If you don't take a third in front of the protoss's face, it's up to him to go out there and double-check your third. That's not very hard--all it takes is a zealot or two or zealot/stalker poke to check the third and then go home. Sometimes, the immo/sentry push comes after a +1 zealot pressure--the pressure is going to see no third and then immediately turn around and lead to a followup which acknowledges the potential for mutas. And you basically have to plan to go fast lair on 2base before you see whether it's a Robo or any other kind of tech, so if the toss doesn't do the immo-sentry push at all--even if he assumes you have a third--the other options for him are so much more dangerous for you. He could go stargate and have 4 phoenixes out by the time you have mutas. He could go twilight for a +2 blink-based composition for map control. He could go double forge mass-gate play--which is really coming into fashion now that armor and shield upgrades are infinitely better against infested terrans. You don't know what he's going to do. So basically, this build is gambling heavily on the protoss doing one specific 2-base push, not seeing your lack of a third base, and not preparing for a fairly obvious 2-base muta play. It's fine to use aggressive styles and to put on pressure, but if you're actually assuming 2-base muta play will always kill probes, you don't know what you're talking about. There are no guarantees. That's the whole point of the game. Sometimes attacks work, and sometimes they get denied. ^This, a lot of what life does only works because his opponents are cutting corners in tournaments to get slight edges and wouldn't really work on ladder with average unit control.
So you're saying his build works in code S but not in mid-master? Please give him more credits before criticizing?
I'll answer this comments and the like puting Life's build at a question now that i've played like 20 games with it. First thing first, saying mutas are obvious when Z is not taking a third is plain false. Most protosses think you're going infestors. They cant know whether u're going infestor or muta before they either have a phoenix or an observer. And by then they're commited to a tech path, so their scouting is of little help. If you scout stargate with slow overlords, you are free to cancel the spire and go infestor and you'll be fine (but you dont have to do that). If you see an observer scouting you (and you couldnt deny it), you laugh as you know he'll have at best 3 stalkers and 3-4 sentries before you get there, which means a ton of probe kills.
Now, what if he goes stargate? I didnt link the vods of Code S because they're pay per view. But in one of those games the protoss did go blind stargate, and Life still won. Because Creator decided to go double stargate with air upgrades and Life stopped at 8 mutas. How can the protoss know you're not going all-in on mutas? Well, he does not know before he has enough to face your mutas straight up and actually fight them. Life could have keep massing mutas, waiting for an upgrade. What Life did when he saw stargate was simply sitting idle in his 3rd with his mutas. Now yes you can say Creator was played a fool. That's kind of the point of the build, to throw people of their comfort zone and increase the chance of mistakes drastically. The only build that would hard counter yours is one gate expand (no forge) directly into stargate without any additional gates, because then he could have like 4 phoenixes harassing your mineral line when your spire is not even done yet. But not a single protoss does that because they would die to any roach ling pressure.
I'll add that stargate opening that will keep massing phoenixes will never take a third, even against speedlings. That's why they go all-in on 2 base. Defend with 8 infestors, 3 spines and lings/roach and you're fine. Robo openings will give you more possibility to kill probes so you're fine anyway against those (usually I bust their third with infestors roaches).
I've had over 70% winrate in top master on Europe with this build. Guess what was my winrate in zvp before that? 42% :D And seriously, when i losed it's because i messed up huge time. Like not scouting proxy pylon or letting every infestors get caught out of position.
I think before Hots where mutas can regen, those kind of mutas build with a quick transition are the future of muta build in zvp. They force canons, they force a certain composition you can take advantage of, and they rule out the possility of immortal all-in, which I think is still the build with the most success against zergs at pro level. You could get probe kills, but that's not even necessary. Forcing a certain reaction is worth 1k/1K (spire and 8 mutas). You put the protoss in a lose-lose situation.
Also, saying 'the protoss is stupid, he should've done that and that" works in forums but not ingame. Ingame, you dont have the time to take a deep breath, calm down, analyse the situation rationally and come up with the solution. If you face the same protoss two or three times, he might come with an answer. And then you could go infestors.
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On January 30 2013 21:04 Natalya wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2013 19:30 Moonrisesc wrote:On January 28 2013 13:23 ineversmile wrote:On January 27 2013 23:06 Natalya wrote:
If you're interested in countering immortal all-in + playing muta zvp, definetly try ST.Life's recent muta build.
Standard 15 pool 16 hatch thing, get lings to push the scout back, but dont take your third, instead take a gas once you've you queen started and you've used every larva. Try to not let the protoss know u're 2 basing.
Make lair with first 100 gas and take a second gas as you start lair, then 3rd gas as your second gas is finishing, same for the 4rth gas.
Make spire then ling speed then 3rd. This hit SO early protoss will not even have 2 immortals when you attack them, so they're pretty much forced to defend and they're pretty screwed at that point.
Life transition after the first 8 mutas (no air upgrades) into infestor/ling/roach/hive/4rth. His mutas are a guarantee of getting a ton of probe kills and forcing protoss to go blink stalker heavy + cannons, which means mutas ALWAYS pay for themselves. Most protosses will 2 base all-in as a response once they have 3 canons each mineral line, not even trying to take a 3rd. And their all in is easily shut down because u'll be maxed on 70 drones and infestors roaches lings.
Since you're 2 basing, protoss allining would be a bad idea but if they do anything like gate agression, you can spine your natural, make roach warren and be fine (they cant push through spines and mutas will kill their mineral line soon enough). Replay/VODs seem necessary because whoever he was facing did a terrible job of scouting. Life does win a lot of games because a lot of pros cut corners with their scouting. If you don't take a third in front of the protoss's face, it's up to him to go out there and double-check your third. That's not very hard--all it takes is a zealot or two or zealot/stalker poke to check the third and then go home. Sometimes, the immo/sentry push comes after a +1 zealot pressure--the pressure is going to see no third and then immediately turn around and lead to a followup which acknowledges the potential for mutas. And you basically have to plan to go fast lair on 2base before you see whether it's a Robo or any other kind of tech, so if the toss doesn't do the immo-sentry push at all--even if he assumes you have a third--the other options for him are so much more dangerous for you. He could go stargate and have 4 phoenixes out by the time you have mutas. He could go twilight for a +2 blink-based composition for map control. He could go double forge mass-gate play--which is really coming into fashion now that armor and shield upgrades are infinitely better against infested terrans. You don't know what he's going to do. So basically, this build is gambling heavily on the protoss doing one specific 2-base push, not seeing your lack of a third base, and not preparing for a fairly obvious 2-base muta play. It's fine to use aggressive styles and to put on pressure, but if you're actually assuming 2-base muta play will always kill probes, you don't know what you're talking about. There are no guarantees. That's the whole point of the game. Sometimes attacks work, and sometimes they get denied. ^This, a lot of what life does only works because his opponents are cutting corners in tournaments to get slight edges and wouldn't really work on ladder with average unit control. So you're saying his build works in code S but not in mid-master? Please give him more credits before criticizing?
I think Life is the best zerg player on the planet. Is that enough credit for you? That doesn't change the fact that his builds are often calculated gambles based upon known opponents.
I'll answer this comments and the like puting Life's build at a question now that i've played like 20 games with it. First thing first, saying mutas are obvious when Z is not taking a third is plain false. Most protosses think you're going infestors. They cant know whether u're going infestor or muta before they either have a phoenix or an observer. And by then they're commited to a tech path, so their scouting is of little help. If you scout stargate with slow overlords, you are free to cancel the spire and go infestor and you'll be fine (but you dont have to do that). If you see an observer scouting you (and you couldnt deny it), you laugh as you know he'll have at best 3 stalkers and 3-4 sentries before you get there, which means a ton of probe kills.
I have no idea which protoss you talk to, but it's pretty simple: if the zerg is 2basing and a bust doesn't happen, it's probably going to be mutas. Sure, he could go infestors...but infestors don't fly over cliffs into the protoss's main and kill probes.
If the protoss only has 3 stalkers and 4 sentries when you hit him with mutas or infestors, it's mathematically proven that he has terrible macro.
Now, what if he goes stargate? I didnt link the vods of Code S because they're pay per view. But in one of those games the protoss did go blind stargate, and Life still won. Because Creator decided to go double stargate with air upgrades and Life stopped at 8 mutas. How can the protoss know you're not going all-in on mutas? Well, he does not know before he has enough to face your mutas straight up and actually fight them. Life could have keep massing mutas, waiting for an upgrade. What Life did when he saw stargate was simply sitting idle in his 3rd with his mutas. Now yes you can say Creator was played a fool. That's kind of the point of the build, to throw people of their comfort zone and increase the chance of mistakes drastically. The only build that would hard counter yours is one gate expand (no forge) directly into stargate without any additional gates, because then he could have like 4 phoenixes harassing your mineral line when your spire is not even done yet. But not a single protoss does that because they would die to any roach ling pressure.
I watched that game live. Cloud Kingdom, right? Creator screwed that up because he didn't know what he was doing. Sure, the aggression put Creator under some pressure and Creator buckled. However, if Creator kept his composure and used a proper counter to the mutas from SG, then he would have dominated Life. Personally, I don't think Creator is that well-versed in SG PvZ because the muta counter is pretty simple: Get a Beacon, get Range, and keep your Phoenixes alive while you do that.
I'll add that stargate opening that will keep massing phoenixes will never take a third, even against speedlings. That's why they go all-in on 2 base. Defend with 8 infestors, 3 spines and lings/roach and you're fine. Robo openings will give you more possibility to kill probes so you're fine anyway against those (usually I bust their third with infestors roaches).
Good luck getting 8 infestors on 4 gas after going for 8 mutas first and also spending enough money on units to deny a third and take your own.
I've had over 70% winrate in top master on Europe with this build. Guess what was my winrate in zvp before that? 42% :D And seriously, when i losed it's because i messed up huge time. Like not scouting proxy pylon or letting every infestors get caught out of position.
I don't care about rankings, I care about replays. You still have provided 0.
Also, saying 'the protoss is stupid, he should've done that and that" works in forums but not ingame. Ingame, you dont have the time to take a deep breath, calm down, analyse the situation rationally and come up with the solution. If you face the same protoss two or three times, he might come with an answer. The whole point of discussion threads is to talk about how to handle situations, so that when you're in a game you know what to do. Sure, if I have never seen a mutalisk in my life, I'm going to panic. But if I'm accustomed to getting ranged phoenixes, and if I've practiced that transition, then I don't have to think about it. I'll scout the spire and react instinctively.
Basically, what you're saying is that you're going to win a bunch of games against people who don't have practice responding to 2 base muta. That's fine, but don't extend it to more than it actually is. If you go up against someone who knows how to respond to 2base muta properly, then what happens?
And then you could go infestors.
On 2 base, after straight-teching mutas? Please. Replays or it didn't happen.
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I still believe in the 2 base muta build given how people play these days.
I hear a lot of people out here in the forums that say "Oh herp derp, 2 base zerg vs 2 base protoss" kind of reasoning and I'm really getting tired of it. Its just the order in which you take things, of course you would take a 3rd base behind a midgame
strategy! And the timing is really good, it really hits before protoss can build stalkers/blink. The zerg would take his 3rd, drone drone drone and make a response (spines + units if protoss goes all in or pathogen glands/evolution upgrades if he takes a 3rd)
No good protoss player would respond with pre-emptive stalkers unless he is going for a blink all-in. He would prefer gas in upgrades and more tech before taking his 3rd. There is a window to push after making these stalkers to deal a lot of damage with good scouting (to see if zerg is powering too much with few units) but with the pressure in a tournament, its almost always better to secure a 3rd, getting ready for a doom push in 15 to 17 minutes.
Remember, gas is the limiting factor for zerg here.
I really want to emphasize this statement 1 post above, the strength of forcing the protoss to go a tech path of lots of blink stalkers. Storm is a pretty standard response and also very powerful but there is a lot of things that a zerg can do behind the 8 mutas.
And the minor bonus 2 base muta can do: Kill the toss outright, picking off the sentries, reinforcing with more muta and overwhelming the stalkers.
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Diamond Z here. Before looking up builds for ZvP, I started doing this build naturally. It works wonders once you refine it and get used to the style. Thanks for the tips and tricks! I'll definitely be stacking this information with my current build.
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On January 30 2013 21:04 Natalya wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2013 19:30 Moonrisesc wrote:On January 28 2013 13:23 ineversmile wrote:On January 27 2013 23:06 Natalya wrote:
If you're interested in countering immortal all-in + playing muta zvp, definetly try ST.Life's recent muta build.
Standard 15 pool 16 hatch thing, get lings to push the scout back, but dont take your third, instead take a gas once you've you queen started and you've used every larva. Try to not let the protoss know u're 2 basing.
Make lair with first 100 gas and take a second gas as you start lair, then 3rd gas as your second gas is finishing, same for the 4rth gas.
Make spire then ling speed then 3rd. This hit SO early protoss will not even have 2 immortals when you attack them, so they're pretty much forced to defend and they're pretty screwed at that point.
Life transition after the first 8 mutas (no air upgrades) into infestor/ling/roach/hive/4rth. His mutas are a guarantee of getting a ton of probe kills and forcing protoss to go blink stalker heavy + cannons, which means mutas ALWAYS pay for themselves. Most protosses will 2 base all-in as a response once they have 3 canons each mineral line, not even trying to take a 3rd. And their all in is easily shut down because u'll be maxed on 70 drones and infestors roaches lings.
Since you're 2 basing, protoss allining would be a bad idea but if they do anything like gate agression, you can spine your natural, make roach warren and be fine (they cant push through spines and mutas will kill their mineral line soon enough). Replay/VODs seem necessary because whoever he was facing did a terrible job of scouting. Life does win a lot of games because a lot of pros cut corners with their scouting. If you don't take a third in front of the protoss's face, it's up to him to go out there and double-check your third. That's not very hard--all it takes is a zealot or two or zealot/stalker poke to check the third and then go home. Sometimes, the immo/sentry push comes after a +1 zealot pressure--the pressure is going to see no third and then immediately turn around and lead to a followup which acknowledges the potential for mutas. And you basically have to plan to go fast lair on 2base before you see whether it's a Robo or any other kind of tech, so if the toss doesn't do the immo-sentry push at all--even if he assumes you have a third--the other options for him are so much more dangerous for you. He could go stargate and have 4 phoenixes out by the time you have mutas. He could go twilight for a +2 blink-based composition for map control. He could go double forge mass-gate play--which is really coming into fashion now that armor and shield upgrades are infinitely better against infested terrans. You don't know what he's going to do. So basically, this build is gambling heavily on the protoss doing one specific 2-base push, not seeing your lack of a third base, and not preparing for a fairly obvious 2-base muta play. It's fine to use aggressive styles and to put on pressure, but if you're actually assuming 2-base muta play will always kill probes, you don't know what you're talking about. There are no guarantees. That's the whole point of the game. Sometimes attacks work, and sometimes they get denied. ^This, a lot of what life does only works because his opponents are cutting corners in tournaments to get slight edges and wouldn't really work on ladder with average unit control. So you're saying his build works in code S but not in mid-master? Please give him more credits before criticizing?
Well part of understanding why Life is so successful in tourneys is realizing that in Code S it's a whole different ball game. The rules and mindset you take to ladder simply won't do in tourneys. That's why you see pros cut corners in and try to out-meta/mindgame the opponent. A build that works awesome against, say, MVP or Taeja works because they are designed for the player.
Thanks for the build, though OP. Now I can use mutas in all 3 matchups. wooooot. Now all I need to do is refine my muta control.
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On January 30 2013 21:51 ineversmile wrote:
I think Life is the best zerg player on the planet. Is that enough credit for you? That doesn't change the fact that his builds are often calculated gambles based upon known opponents.
He early pool in zvz against every top Zerg. He did it against DRG, Leenock, etc etc. That's not about betting he'll go hatch first then i'm far ahead. That's what people dont understand with players like Life. They're basically thinking : well, he's arguably #1 world at the moment, but it's all about gambling... It's so much not. By pulling unorthodox builds all the time he forced a certain patern of reaction that the takes advantage of.
Is it only about practice and about the other guy not knowing what to do? No it's not. Passive macro is not the only overall strong way to play. There's an inherent strength to those builds.
I have no idea which protoss you talk to, but it's pretty simple: if the zerg is 2basing and a bust doesn't happen, it's probably going to be mutas. Sure, he could go infestors...but infestors don't fly over cliffs into the protoss's main and kill probes.
If the protoss only has 3 stalkers and 4 sentries when you hit him with mutas or infestors, it's mathematically proven that he has terrible macro.
So? There is still two possibilities. He's not going to make stalkers if he doesnt not know if you go mutas or infestors. Since stalkers are not efficient against infestors. So he'll still be unprepared or he can make a call and that call could be that you're going muta. What if you go infestors? Not any protoss will make canons and research blinks if he didnt scout a muta or a spire. Nobody will do that. Playing according to such random calls would be basically throwing a dice.
Concerning protoss having few units, it was against top master going +1, robo before adding gates. Typical expand build. Those mutas just hit extremely early. You're starting the spire before even reaching full saturation on 2 base.
I watched that game live. Cloud Kingdom, right? Creator screwed that up because he didn't know what he was doing. Sure, the aggression put Creator under some pressure and Creator buckled. However, if Creator kept his composure and used a proper counter to the mutas from SG, then he would have dominated Life. Personally, I don't think Creator is that well-versed in SG PvZ because the muta counter is pretty simple: Get a Beacon, get Range, and keep your Phoenixes alive while you do that.
So you know how to deal with mutas better than creator... What you're proposing would be an even bigger investment than 2 stargate like Creator. And would fail even harder since in this build Z only make 8 mutas.
Good luck getting 8 infestors on 4 gas after going for 8 mutas first and also spending enough money on units to deny a third and take your own.
Basically it's more on 6 gas since you throw down your third before spire is done. And Life did go super uber greedy on infestor (cloud kingdom) : he had 8 infestor done or on the way. He had ling speed and +1 melee upgrading. No roach speed and no roach.
I don't care about rankings, I care about replays. You still have provided 0.
Well, Life's playing a top tier protoss and beating him badly with the build... what would my own replays show any better? lol I'm not advocating my build, i'm trying to understand everything that's behind Life's build.
Basically, what you're saying is that you're going to win a bunch of games against people who don't have practice responding to 2 base muta. That's fine, but don't extend it to more than it actually is. If you go up against someone who knows how to respond to 2base muta properly, then what happens?
Rank 1-4 master on Europe never saw a 2 base muta...
Ok, i'm explaining the rationale behind the build real quick : Toss ffe and see 2 base => he either goes robo or stargate (or gate all-in, but easily scouted/defended). He goes robo he's screwed because his obs arrive too late to not let the early muta do damage. He goes stargate, Z can cancel spire or sit still with 8 mutas letting the toss thinking he's going mass muta (not easy for protoss to scout at that time since he does not want to engage a superior amount of mutas).
Toss is in a bad spot no matter what happens. And it has little to nothing to do with the actual player screwing up. The problem comes from how the builds match against each other. Life found a nice timing where Protoss cant really be prepared for mutas after an ffe (basically their tech and their scouting comes too late). That's why it's a clever build (and btw I finally think it's not really viable against gateway first opening).
I think that a protoss going ffe is in a bad spot unless he blindly counter it (like 5 gate blink into expo). Basically it's answering the ffe by greedy tech (lair and spire BEFORE EVEN LING SPEED) and not by the traditional greedy droning. FFE, by putting down a nexus and a forge before any tech (gateway) allows both form of greed.
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I don't debate with people who don't provide replays.
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On January 31 2013 10:23 ineversmile wrote:
I don't debate with people who don't provide replays.
I dont get it. You saw Life play the build... What would you want more? You really think I would do anything better than Life? In which way would my replay be worth more than Life's vod??
On January 31 2013 10:10 Thienan567 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2013 21:04 Natalya wrote:On January 28 2013 19:30 Moonrisesc wrote:On January 28 2013 13:23 ineversmile wrote:On January 27 2013 23:06 Natalya wrote:
If you're interested in countering immortal all-in + playing muta zvp, definetly try ST.Life's recent muta build.
Standard 15 pool 16 hatch thing, get lings to push the scout back, but dont take your third, instead take a gas once you've you queen started and you've used every larva. Try to not let the protoss know u're 2 basing.
Make lair with first 100 gas and take a second gas as you start lair, then 3rd gas as your second gas is finishing, same for the 4rth gas.
Make spire then ling speed then 3rd. This hit SO early protoss will not even have 2 immortals when you attack them, so they're pretty much forced to defend and they're pretty screwed at that point.
Life transition after the first 8 mutas (no air upgrades) into infestor/ling/roach/hive/4rth. His mutas are a guarantee of getting a ton of probe kills and forcing protoss to go blink stalker heavy + cannons, which means mutas ALWAYS pay for themselves. Most protosses will 2 base all-in as a response once they have 3 canons each mineral line, not even trying to take a 3rd. And their all in is easily shut down because u'll be maxed on 70 drones and infestors roaches lings.
Since you're 2 basing, protoss allining would be a bad idea but if they do anything like gate agression, you can spine your natural, make roach warren and be fine (they cant push through spines and mutas will kill their mineral line soon enough). Replay/VODs seem necessary because whoever he was facing did a terrible job of scouting. Life does win a lot of games because a lot of pros cut corners with their scouting. If you don't take a third in front of the protoss's face, it's up to him to go out there and double-check your third. That's not very hard--all it takes is a zealot or two or zealot/stalker poke to check the third and then go home. Sometimes, the immo/sentry push comes after a +1 zealot pressure--the pressure is going to see no third and then immediately turn around and lead to a followup which acknowledges the potential for mutas. And you basically have to plan to go fast lair on 2base before you see whether it's a Robo or any other kind of tech, so if the toss doesn't do the immo-sentry push at all--even if he assumes you have a third--the other options for him are so much more dangerous for you. He could go stargate and have 4 phoenixes out by the time you have mutas. He could go twilight for a +2 blink-based composition for map control. He could go double forge mass-gate play--which is really coming into fashion now that armor and shield upgrades are infinitely better against infested terrans. You don't know what he's going to do. So basically, this build is gambling heavily on the protoss doing one specific 2-base push, not seeing your lack of a third base, and not preparing for a fairly obvious 2-base muta play. It's fine to use aggressive styles and to put on pressure, but if you're actually assuming 2-base muta play will always kill probes, you don't know what you're talking about. There are no guarantees. That's the whole point of the game. Sometimes attacks work, and sometimes they get denied. ^This, a lot of what life does only works because his opponents are cutting corners in tournaments to get slight edges and wouldn't really work on ladder with average unit control. So you're saying his build works in code S but not in mid-master? Please give him more credits before criticizing? Well part of understanding why Life is so successful in tourneys is realizing that in Code S it's a whole different ball game. The rules and mindset you take to ladder simply won't do in tourneys. That's why you see pros cut corners in and try to out-meta/mindgame the opponent. A build that works awesome against, say, MVP or Taeja works because they are designed for the player. Thanks for the build, though OP. Now I can use mutas in all 3 matchups. wooooot. Now all I need to do is refine my muta control.
I dont know if I agree with this. Every Code S player is macro oriented anyway, and most of their games are standard builds, like the one you see in ladder. You could prepare for an opponent like MKP because you know he never scout and like to CC first, so you could 10 pool to cancel his CC or something. As a terran I would not bother scouting DRG because I know he'll never early pool and rarely to never take a gas that can be seen by an scv. But I think that's about it for preparation against a certain opponent. I mean it's only about small details like this. I dont think you can make a entire game plan against Taeja. You can take advantage of a little thing or two in the early game, but apart from that I think you have to play Taeja as if he was a terran like any other and that's it.
I could be wrong ofc
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United States4883 Posts
On January 31 2013 10:26 Natalya wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2013 10:23 ineversmile wrote:
I don't debate with people who don't provide replays. I dont get it. You saw Life play the build... What would you want more? You really think I would do anything better than Life? In which way would my replay be worth more than Life's vod??
Dude, why are you avoiding it so much? Just post a replay already lol.
To make you feel better, I used to do nothing but 2-base muta all day in both ZvT and ZvP, and I kind of like the direction 2-base muta is going with FFE now being the standard. Back when it was gate expands, it was better to just go straight into roach/ling, but FFE has such a huge weakness to early mutas. I believe this works fairly well, but even with a fast geyser, the timing of the mutas is still 9:30, which should give any protoss player a chance to scout you with either a phoenix, hallucination, or observer and react.
As a protoss player, if zerg doesn't take a 3rd, I suspect:
1) Some kind of nydus or drop play
2) 2-base mutas
3) 2-base infestor/ling attack
I'll probably do a zealot/stalker poke to make sure shenanigans aren't going down, then send in another scout around 8:00 (either phoenix, hallucination, or observer) to get a good idea of what's going on. Stargate path = really easy solution, just build 4 phoenixes, put like 3 stalkers in each mineral line, and take your 3rd with zealot/templar. If your opponent keeps making mutas (like more than 10), grab the fleet beacon +upgrade and laugh because all of his mutas are going to die. Robo path = not as easy, but essentially I would just build 2 cannons in each mineral line, skip blink, and go straight into templar production.
I suspect a play like this is going to be stronger in HotS, as it's possible to insta-techswitch into SH/queen and start sieging your front wall. If you can force templar path from protoss and then switch into swarm hosts, protoss is basically never getting out of their base to take a 3rd.
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Yo. Thanks again, just got promoted to plat on a game where I beat a toss using this, yay =). Couple questions.
1. What do I do with my 5k minerals mid to late game and 0 gas? Am I doing something wrong? I've just been building mass mass spines. Anything better to be doing with minerals? My multi tasking isn't that good keep in mind (just being plat and all).
2. Thoughts on things to target. I guess the short answer probably is what ever you are able to freely pick off. I just want to get a solid list in my head since in the heat of battle I took out a dark shrine when in the reply I realized the cyber core was right there, and I prolly could have taken out his cyber core then killed him outright since he mainly had immortals and sentries when I first attacked. If I had to make a list I would say.
1. probes
2. cyber core
3. Forge
4. Assimilators
5. Twilight council
6. Dark shrine
7. pylons
What would you guys say?
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United States4883 Posts
On January 31 2013 12:35 dproberts55 wrote:
Yo. Thanks again, just got promoted to plat on a game where I beat a toss using this, yay =). Couple questions.
1. What do I do with my 5k minerals mid to late game and 0 gas? Am I doing something wrong? I've just been building mass mass spines. Anything better to be doing with minerals? My multi tasking isn't that good keep in mind (just being plat and all).
2. Thoughts on things to target. I guess the short answer probably is what ever you are able to freely pick off. I just want to get a solid list in my head since in the heat of battle I took out a dark shrine when in the reply I realized the cyber core was right there, and I prolly could have taken out his cyber core then killed him outright since he mainly had immortals and sentries when I first attacked. If I had to make a list I would say.
1. probes
2. cyber core
3. Forge
4. Assimilators
5. Twilight council
6. Dark shrine
7. pylons
What would you guys say?
1. hatches, drones, and spines. I honestly don't think it's a bad idea to mix in some lings until you start to get a huge muta flock. I'm not sure what the guide says (haven't ACTUALLY read it yet), but lings can be pretty good for runbys and harassment defense as long as you're continuing to take more bases and get more gases up.
2. Always target probes if you can. Nexuses are actually really great targets too; a dead nexus means protoss has about a minute of severely reduced income. Other than that, it's really just what happens to be around. If you have time to pick off a tech structure, you should do it; if not, just see if you can focus the pylon powering it, and this will at least delay it. Assimilators are BAD targets unless you're abusing the terrain to just slowly pick at it. They have too much HP for their cost and build time.
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On January 31 2013 12:35 dproberts55 wrote:
Yo. Thanks again, just got promoted to plat on a game where I beat a toss using this, yay =). Couple questions.
1. What do I do with my 5k minerals mid to late game and 0 gas? Am I doing something wrong? I've just been building mass mass spines. Anything better to be doing with minerals? My multi tasking isn't that good keep in mind (just being plat and all).
2. Thoughts on things to target. I guess the short answer probably is what ever you are able to freely pick off. I just want to get a solid list in my head since in the heat of battle I took out a dark shrine when in the reply I realized the cyber core was right there, and I prolly could have taken out his cyber core then killed him outright since he mainly had immortals and sentries when I first attacked. If I had to make a list I would say.
1. probes
2. cyber core
3. Forge
4. Assimilators
5. Twilight council
6. Dark shrine
7. pylons
What would you guys say?
1. probes (especially gas miners)
2. assimilators
3. artosis pylons
4. Cybercore
With these order, I also have a huge pack of lings in his 3rd to distract him.
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This should be even better in hots since your mutas just regen any damage taken by a storm or stalker volleys. I will try it there, thanks for the great read.
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On January 31 2013 12:35 dproberts55 wrote:
1. What do I do with my 5k minerals mid to late game and 0 gas? Am I doing something wrong? I've just been building mass mass spines. Anything better to be doing with minerals? My multi tasking isn't that good keep in mind (just being plat and all).
More hatches, extractors and drones => more gas => more mutas. As you are containing him with mutas, exposed bases don't matter as much.
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Don't forget to add a spore crawler; dt's can be a bitch.
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On January 31 2013 22:39 AdrianHealey wrote:
Don't forget to add a spore crawler; dt's can be a bitch.
Not to mention spores if the toss commits to stargate units. A bunch of spores can create a safe retreat point for mutas when ranged, +1 phoenixes chase them across the map.
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For me focus priority in baserace is
Templar archives / DT
Upgrading Forge
Artosis Pylons
Core
Probes and Nexi
Simple reasoning,
Eliminating threat of DTs is really nice, removing storm and archons makes winning an engagement easier if necessary.
Decent protoss will accept the threat of a baserace so will have probes on the map with bank to build something, hence killing their probes quickly wont necessarily help you.
From there you can proceed to try hunt down the nexi / pylons they make on the map, can always come back for the other stuff.
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Mutas are absolutely not good vs a twilight robo 3 gateway into 3rd base fast upgrades build (which, btw, works very well vs fast hive builds too due to fast upgrades)
You speak of how to defend protoss all-ins and early aggressions, but not how to fight vs a protoss who gets a fast 3rd off twilight, robo, 4 gates, and zealot, stalker and 6 sentries and simply macros vs you. base race won't work vs good players who keeps like 2 cannons, a few stalkers, and a templar each at two of the P bases and sack the other, while diligently multitasking attack and defense.
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On February 01 2013 01:45 cassurai wrote:
Mutas are absolutely not good vs a twilight robo 3 gateway into 3rd base fast upgrades build (which, btw, works very well vs fast hive builds too due to fast upgrades)
You speak of how to defend protoss all-ins and early aggressions, but not how to fight vs a protoss who gets a fast 3rd off twilight, robo, 4 gates, and zealot, stalker and 6 sentries and simply macros vs you. base race won't work vs good players who keeps like 2 cannons, a few stalkers, and a templar each at two of the P bases and sack the other, while diligently multitasking attack and defense.
2 cannons some stalkers and a templar is no where near enough to hold a base and investment in a robo and twilight and third relying on basically pure sentries early on leaves you pretty vulnerable to the first wave of mutalisks.
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On February 01 2013 02:39 Iksf wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2013 01:45 cassurai wrote:
Mutas are absolutely not good vs a twilight robo 3 gateway into 3rd base fast upgrades build (which, btw, works very well vs fast hive builds too due to fast upgrades)
You speak of how to defend protoss all-ins and early aggressions, but not how to fight vs a protoss who gets a fast 3rd off twilight, robo, 4 gates, and zealot, stalker and 6 sentries and simply macros vs you. base race won't work vs good players who keeps like 2 cannons, a few stalkers, and a templar each at two of the P bases and sack the other, while diligently multitasking attack and defense. 2 cannons some stalkers and a templar is no where near enough to hold a base and investment in a robo and twilight and third relying on basically pure sentries early on leaves you pretty vulnerable to the first wave of mutalisks.
It's perfectly fine if you play defensively, ball up a big army, and then move out in the direction of the mutas (so you zone them out and push them back). It's not just a couple stalkers and cannons and 1 HT at each base, either; it's also that the toss can storm to force your mutas to move for a couple seconds, warp in a round of stalkers at home, pull his probes back from the mutas, blink stalkers from another base, and then have a bunch of stalkers ready to catch your mutas. And then he's still pushing you base with his main army, unless you're exiting the toss's base in a direction towards his army, and he's blinking back to trap your mutas and kill almost all of them.
So much of blink vs muta play is based upon fluid positioning, which is why it's hard to describe situations and tactics clearly with just words.
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I have a question. How do you fricken beat this? I get this a lot on ladder I have a 0% winrate against it. I am master btw if that helps.
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On February 01 2013 01:41 Iksf wrote:
For me focus priority in baserace is
Templar archives / DT
Upgrading Forge
Artosis Pylons
Core
Probes and Nexi
Simple reasoning,
Eliminating threat of DTs is really nice, removing storm and archons makes winning an engagement easier if necessary.
Decent protoss will accept the threat of a baserace so will have probes on the map with bank to build something, hence killing their probes quickly wont necessarily help you.
From there you can proceed to try hunt down the nexi / pylons they make on the map, can always come back for the other stuff.
Is the same if it isn't a base trade? Do you try and snipe things out in that order in just normal mid game harass as well?
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On February 01 2013 03:18 ineversmile wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2013 02:39 Iksf wrote:On February 01 2013 01:45 cassurai wrote:
Mutas are absolutely not good vs a twilight robo 3 gateway into 3rd base fast upgrades build (which, btw, works very well vs fast hive builds too due to fast upgrades)
You speak of how to defend protoss all-ins and early aggressions, but not how to fight vs a protoss who gets a fast 3rd off twilight, robo, 4 gates, and zealot, stalker and 6 sentries and simply macros vs you. base race won't work vs good players who keeps like 2 cannons, a few stalkers, and a templar each at two of the P bases and sack the other, while diligently multitasking attack and defense. 2 cannons some stalkers and a templar is no where near enough to hold a base and investment in a robo and twilight and third relying on basically pure sentries early on leaves you pretty vulnerable to the first wave of mutalisks. It's perfectly fine if you play defensively, ball up a big army, and then move out in the direction of the mutas (so you zone them out and push them back). It's not just a couple stalkers and cannons and 1 HT at each base, either; it's also that the toss can storm to force your mutas to move for a couple seconds, warp in a round of stalkers at home, pull his probes back from the mutas, blink stalkers from another base, and then have a bunch of stalkers ready to catch your mutas. And then he's still pushing you base with his main army, unless you're exiting the toss's base in a direction towards his army, and he's blinking back to trap your mutas and kill almost all of them. So much of blink vs muta play is based upon fluid positioning, which is why it's hard to describe situations and tactics clearly with just words.
If your army is out of position and your relying on a storm to force me back to buy time il just magic box through the storm and kill you. Zoning mutalisks out with your push is completely a zerg positional mistake
On February 01 2013 09:19 dproberts55 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2013 01:41 Iksf wrote:
For me focus priority in baserace is
Templar archives / DT
Upgrading Forge
Artosis Pylons
Core
Probes and Nexi
Simple reasoning,
Eliminating threat of DTs is really nice, removing storm and archons makes winning an engagement easier if necessary.
Decent protoss will accept the threat of a baserace so will have probes on the map with bank to build something, hence killing their probes quickly wont necessarily help you.
From there you can proceed to try hunt down the nexi / pylons they make on the map, can always come back for the other stuff. Is the same if it isn't a base trade? Do you try and snipe things out in that order in just normal mid game harass as well?
When your harassing you just take whatever you can get you dont have the option to be fussy really.
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Thank so much for this guide. I always liked mutas VS toss, but it did not work well. But now I see it has to be really dedicated muta build - no gas into ground army (only speed for lings) and full on mutas.
I did this style several times and always worked. After long time I even recieved "so imba" leaving message . What I need to polish right now are upgrades for air (with second spire) and better expanding since I am often left with to much minerals and no gas. I also consider get at least +1 for lings, since I build them when there is lot of minerals.
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On February 01 2013 02:39 Iksf wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2013 01:45 cassurai wrote:
Mutas are absolutely not good vs a twilight robo 3 gateway into 3rd base fast upgrades build (which, btw, works very well vs fast hive builds too due to fast upgrades)
You speak of how to defend protoss all-ins and early aggressions, but not how to fight vs a protoss who gets a fast 3rd off twilight, robo, 4 gates, and zealot, stalker and 6 sentries and simply macros vs you. base race won't work vs good players who keeps like 2 cannons, a few stalkers, and a templar each at two of the P bases and sack the other, while diligently multitasking attack and defense. 2 cannons some stalkers and a templar is no where near enough to hold a base and investment in a robo and twilight and third relying on basically pure sentries early on leaves you pretty vulnerable to the first wave of mutalisks.
Completely wrong. Sorry.
Any Twilight before Robo fast upgrades build into 3rd nexus will completely own 3 hatch Mutas unless Protoss has very poor Stalker / Templar control.
If you're going for cheesy like a 2 hatch Muta rush, then yes, you just might catch some probes off guard but you aren't going to have that many Mutas to make an impact anyhow. And you've shown your hand.
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On February 02 2013 20:01 cassurai wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2013 02:39 Iksf wrote:On February 01 2013 01:45 cassurai wrote:
Mutas are absolutely not good vs a twilight robo 3 gateway into 3rd base fast upgrades build (which, btw, works very well vs fast hive builds too due to fast upgrades)
You speak of how to defend protoss all-ins and early aggressions, but not how to fight vs a protoss who gets a fast 3rd off twilight, robo, 4 gates, and zealot, stalker and 6 sentries and simply macros vs you. base race won't work vs good players who keeps like 2 cannons, a few stalkers, and a templar each at two of the P bases and sack the other, while diligently multitasking attack and defense. 2 cannons some stalkers and a templar is no where near enough to hold a base and investment in a robo and twilight and third relying on basically pure sentries early on leaves you pretty vulnerable to the first wave of mutalisks. Completely wrong. Sorry. Any Twilight before Robo fast upgrades build into 3rd nexus will completely own 3 hatch Mutas unless Protoss has very poor Stalker / Templar control. If you're going for cheesy like a 2 hatch Muta rush, then yes, you just might catch some probes off guard but you aren't going to have that many Mutas to make an impact anyhow. And you've shown your hand.
While I love watching people trade why their build does/doesn't work back and forth purely with speech, why don't you two just play a game and just post the replay.
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On February 01 2013 08:40 SCG.StatiC wrote:
I have a question. How do you fricken beat this? I get this a lot on ladder I have a 0% winrate against it. I am master btw if that helps.
I play random so I have been on each side of this build, my best chance of beating it is to launch a heavy blink attack of two bases, and cannon up one nexus like crazy. He will go for a trade, so my goal is to kill enough so that my one remaining base is better than his setup. An observer is handy to blink around spine walls.
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On February 02 2013 23:23 kyllinghest wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2013 08:40 SCG.StatiC wrote:
I have a question. How do you fricken beat this? I get this a lot on ladder I have a 0% winrate against it. I am master btw if that helps. I play random so I have been on each side of this build, my best chance of beating it is to launch a heavy blink attack of two bases, and cannon up one nexus like crazy. He will go for a trade, so my goal is to kill enough so that my one remaining base is better than his setup. An observer is handy to blink around spine walls.
Infact I think 2basing vs this is one of the worst things you can possibly do as protoss. Zerg can just make spines in his main and counter or even just kill your army with muta ling. If you do not have a stargate I think you should absolutely try for a third instead of attacking.
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Personally, I think that nobody can beat me with 3 bases mass muta. Because even if it's not common in the metagame, a DT drop just roll over this.
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On February 05 2013 05:01 nSgNeverDie wrote:
Personally, I think that nobody can beat me with 3 bases mass muta. Because even if it's not common in the metagame, a DT drop just roll over this.
I don't get why DT is so lethal to this. I haven't used it much, so please be patient with me =). But, can't you just build an overseer, fly back to your base and take them out, then stick an overseer plus a few spines at each base? Also, going DTs is expensive, which means less archons, high templars/storm, cannons and stalkers right?
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Well, the problem with 3 bases fast tech builds is that zerg doesnt have roaches in the mid-game.
So if a protoss is coming at 9:30 with 8 gates, a warpprism and DT tech, what does he see ?
-Building tech building
-full speedlings (slowlings ??)
The amazing thing with this build order is that 8 DTs > XXXX lings, and once you have killed all the speedlings, you just snipe the spire.
A lot of people are going to say "yes, but no, because if you are late due to a pressure and if muta are out when DTs are in his base, you have lost".
To this I'm just going to answer that the amazing thing with DTs is their ability to morph in archons.
Of course you cant do this kind of build without being semi-all in, but muta is soooo annoying with classic gameplay, and if he is going on some sort of Roach build (means you have mis-scooted), then you just warp 8 sentries at home, keeping your gaz.
I keep thinking that muta is a good build in the current metagame, but take care, some people can make builds who just ROFLLOL over this.
Oh, and i were about to forgot, I'm a mid-GM toss, so please dont lol at me saying i'm silver.
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On February 05 2013 06:21 nSgNeverDie wrote:
Well, the problem with 3 bases fast tech builds is that zerg doesnt have roaches in the mid-game.
So if a protoss is coming at 9:30 with 8 gates, a warpprism and DT tech, what does he see ?
Can we see replays of this? Seems like an interesting combination of tech.
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On February 05 2013 05:01 nSgNeverDie wrote:
Personally, I think that nobody can beat me with 3 bases mass muta. Because even if it's not common in the metagame, a DT drop just roll over this.
Yes there are allins that counter this style really well if you skip a roach warren. An 8gate zealot warpprism already destroys this build if you skip a roach warren and don't see it coming. however if zerg spends the 200 minerals on the warren or scouts at the proper times things like the DT drop or the zealot allin will just fall appart and die, that's why they are uncommon in the metagame.
Also, if you don't scout a DT drop I'd imagine you die against it with any zerg style, cuz you know. 4 dts kill a lair before you can morph in an overseer, or 20 drones.
And finaly, you say you hit at 9:30, but with this build thats right when zerg's spire finishes up and he starts 14 muta eggs. What do you do if you just warped in 8 DTs and they all get murdered by mutas? ye... you lose.
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On February 05 2013 16:46 Moonrisesc wrote:
Yes there are allins that counter this style really well if you skip a roach warren. An 8gate zealot warpprism already destroys this build if you skip a roach warren and don't see it coming. however if zerg spends the 200 minerals on the warren or scouts at the proper times things like the DT drop or the zealot allin will just fall appart and die, that's why they are uncommon in the metagame.
Also, if you don't scout a DT drop I'd imagine you die against it with any zerg style, cuz you know. 4 dts kill a lair before you can morph in an overseer, or 20 drones.
And finaly, you say you hit at 9:30, but with this build thats right when zerg's spire finishes up and he starts 14 muta eggs. What do you do if you just warped in 8 DTs and they all get murdered by mutas? ye... you lose.
When I say 9:30, it's the latest timing, usually you are in a fews seconds earlier (like 9:15).
I have forgotten to say that I open double gate zealot +1 pressure, which force the zerg to make a loooot of lings (and if I dont see roaches I know i can kill him) and this is delaying his mutas timing.
Someone wanted replays ^^, well, I'll post some today !
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What do you mean 2gate + 1 zealot?
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I mean an opening with 2 early gates which is going to allow me to put early pressure while being cost efficient thanks to +1 attack.
On the other hand I delay my cyber (that it put at about 5:30) but it doesnt matter, if i were not delaying it, I wouldnt be able to provide enought gaz to get DT and robo tech.
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So it sounds like FFE (nexus/forge/cannon in whatever order) into gate-gate-core.
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Basically it is Forge => Nexus => cannon => 2* gaz => gate => gate => core
But i'm going to post replays, anyway. (versus muta, because it is a topic on this style, not on mine ^^')
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Okay, got problems to find muta replays, in my MASSSSS replays =D Any volontary to play this style versus me ?
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Just wanted to say again, thanks! Haven't lost yet doing this on high plat. I'm even really bad at the initial timings of the build. It just feels like if I get to the point where my first mutas pop and they don't have two star gates it's an auto win. I sorta feel bad... But it's kinda therapeutic to get back at toss for all those mass void ray losses from my bronze league days... =D
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hahaha, never tought i would see you make a guide lksf
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On January 20 2013 05:52 Iksf wrote:
I think I speak for everyone when I say this late game is one of the worst things in the entirety of sc2.
And your response is to post a mass muta guide. I lol'd.
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Wow y u so innovative? You are really thinking like... ehrm... late 2010...
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Curious just defended MC's immortal allin with this, for all of you saying it can't defend an immortal push, watch curious v MC g1 in code S today.
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How is this build doing against stargate opening into 7 gate robo ? Does someone has any information about this ?
On February 14 2013 18:31 Moonrisesc wrote:
Curious just defended MC's immortal allin with this, for all of you saying it can't defend an immortal push, watch curious v MC g1 in code S today.
Yes and no.
Curious took 1 gas @ 4:00 and 2 gas @ 6:00. Not 3 gas @ 6:15.
It changes every timings i guess.
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On February 14 2013 18:39 Insoleet wrote:How is this build doing against stargate opening into 7 gate robo ? Does someone has any information about this ? Show nested quote +On February 14 2013 18:31 Moonrisesc wrote:
Curious just defended MC's immortal allin with this, for all of you saying it can't defend an immortal push, watch curious v MC g1 in code S today. Yes and no. Curious took 1 gas @ 4:00 and 2 gas @ 6:00. Not 3 gas @ 6:15. It changes every timings i guess.
If you bother reading the OP it says:
"6-6.30 3 gas should be taken allowing a lair to be started at around or slightly before 7 mins.
3 gas at 6:30 mins like some players for example leenock use is too late for this. 2 gas at 6 mins is fine, as is 3 before 6:20 or a single gas much earlier, whatever you wish."
So an early gas and then two more around 6:00 is perfectly fine for this build.
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On February 14 2013 08:01 PerryHooter wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2013 05:52 Iksf wrote:
I think I speak for everyone when I say this late game is one of the worst things in the entirety of sc2.
And your response is to post a mass muta guide. I lol'd.
Sorry let me clarify, ZvP lategame is awfully boring for zerg at the moment. Mutalisk is far more fun for zerg. Oh its disgusting to play against as protoss and makes you want to kill yourself but making protoss suffer just adds to the fun.
On February 14 2013 08:02 Sansai wrote:
Wow y u so innovative? You are really thinking like... ehrm... late 2010...
2010 (well actually early 2011 more) was 2 base muta. It was replaced by 3 hatch roach because protoss just rolled over and died to a roach max every game making it a no brainer for zerg, compared to dealing with 7g blink with muta every game which was very difficult. By the time protoss learned to deal with the roach max and DRG style roach muta 3 base aggression, transitioning into broodlords was more figured out and quick hive became standard. Straight mutas have been a neglected side of ZvP for a good year and a half
On February 14 2013 18:57 Grubbegrabbn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2013 18:39 Insoleet wrote:How is this build doing against stargate opening into 7 gate robo ? Does someone has any information about this ? On February 14 2013 18:31 Moonrisesc wrote:
Curious just defended MC's immortal allin with this, for all of you saying it can't defend an immortal push, watch curious v MC g1 in code S today. Yes and no. Curious took 1 gas @ 4:00 and 2 gas @ 6:00. Not 3 gas @ 6:15. It changes every timings i guess. If you bother reading the OP it says: "6-6.30 3 gas should be taken allowing a lair to be started at around or slightly before 7 mins. 3 gas at 6:30 mins like some players for example leenock use is too late for this. 2 gas at 6 mins is fine, as is 3 before 6:20 or a single gas much earlier, whatever you wish." So an early gas and then two more around 6:00 is perfectly fine for this build.
Yea theres tonnes of room for adaption, reaction and just personal preferance, depending on how many units you want to make before the spire finishes
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I'm still wondering, how is this build doing against stargate opening into 7 gate robo ? Does someone has any information about this ?
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On February 14 2013 22:48 Insoleet wrote:
I'm still wondering, how is this build doing against stargate opening into 7 gate robo ? Does someone has any information about this ?
You can still go muta vs 1 stargate and outmicro the pheonixes. Most people however opt to not go spire when they see a stargate and instead go roach infestor / ling infestor. The immortal sentry follow up to the stargate hits so late that you can easily have a good bunch of infestor roach out and crush it without much of a problem. Alternatively, outmicro the pheonix and counter attack with the mutas still works pretty well.
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Anyone have a link for the Curious/MC game? Do you have to pay for it?
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On February 15 2013 04:08 schwza wrote:
Anyone have a link for the Curious/MC game? Do you have to pay for it?
You have to have a GSL ticket ye.
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Anyone have more replays of this vs immo sentry all-in? There's only 2 in the OP's post. Sadly I don't have a GSL ticket 
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If the protoss open with phoenix and seems to go mass phoenix? Is it a bad idea to go muta? If he gets the upgrade they are fucked right?
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On February 21 2013 00:04 llIH wrote:
If the protoss open with phoenix and seems to go mass phoenix? Is it a bad idea to go muta? If he gets the upgrade they are fucked right?
make 3 infestors with no energy upgrade and try to lock his phoenix down. 5 infestors is also acceptable on 5 base if you're bad at fungalling
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How do you stop this shit? It's incredibly infuriating (in hots). The fuckers move super fast and heal super quick. And dont say phoenixs "counter" them, because thats complete bullshit. Get a handful of infestors and fungal them. Yes i know fungal is a projectile now, but its still pretty easy to land. And the traditional ht/archon defense doesnt really cut it anymore, even if you get a storm off on the clump, they heal absurdly quickly. Any master zergs in this thread, what have you lost to while doing this?
My only "solution" thus far is going oracles and/or observers to spot them (obs in key postions and revelation on muta flock). But even then, the purpose of the mutas is just to buy time for the z to take 5 bases and mass up on whatever they want (usually ultra). Perhaps i should try turtling and going skytoss every game? (cuz that sounds super fun)
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On February 26 2013 03:01 da_head wrote:
How do you stop this shit? It's incredibly infuriating (in hots). The fuckers move super fast and heal super quick. And dont say phoenixs "counter" them, because thats complete bullshit. Get a handful of infestors and fungal them. Yes i know fungal is a projectile now, but its still pretty easy to land. And the traditional ht/archon defense doesnt really cut it anymore, even if you get a storm off on the clump, they heal absurdly quickly. Any master zergs in this thread, what have you lost to while doing this?
My only "solution" thus far is going oracles and/or observers to spot them (obs in key postions and revelation on muta flock). But even then, the purpose of the mutas is just to buy time for the z to take 5 bases and mass up on whatever they want (usually ultra). Perhaps i should try turtling and going skytoss every game? (cuz that sounds super fun)
I'll give you a hint: phoenix, tempest, ht, archons.
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On February 26 2013 03:32 agahamsorr0w wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2013 03:01 da_head wrote:
How do you stop this shit? It's incredibly infuriating (in hots). The fuckers move super fast and heal super quick. And dont say phoenixs "counter" them, because thats complete bullshit. Get a handful of infestors and fungal them. Yes i know fungal is a projectile now, but its still pretty easy to land. And the traditional ht/archon defense doesnt really cut it anymore, even if you get a storm off on the clump, they heal absurdly quickly. Any master zergs in this thread, what have you lost to while doing this?
My only "solution" thus far is going oracles and/or observers to spot them (obs in key postions and revelation on muta flock). But even then, the purpose of the mutas is just to buy time for the z to take 5 bases and mass up on whatever they want (usually ultra). Perhaps i should try turtling and going skytoss every game? (cuz that sounds super fun) I'll give you a hint: phoenix, tempest, ht, archons.
thanks for the useful tip. wasn't aware i had infinite gas off 3 base.
Anyone with actual advice?
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Open stargate and get lots of phoenixes...be careful, it requires micro to pull off.
I've seen lots of pro protoss players throwing down 3 stargates when they see the spire, and hitting this INSANE phoenix/immortal/zealot/archon timing that absolutely crushes heavy muta play. Cannons are your friend while you buy time for the phoenix count to increase.
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On February 26 2013 04:30 Mavvie wrote:
Open stargate and get lots of phoenixes...be careful, it requires micro to pull off.
I've seen lots of pro protoss players throwing down 3 stargates when they see the spire, and hitting this INSANE phoenix/immortal/zealot/archon timing that absolutely crushes heavy muta play. Cannons are your friend while you buy time for the phoenix count to increase.
When the mutalisks see the three stargates, wouldn't Zerg transition immediately back into Infestor tech?
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On February 26 2013 03:37 da_head wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2013 03:32 agahamsorr0w wrote:On February 26 2013 03:01 da_head wrote:
How do you stop this shit? It's incredibly infuriating (in hots). The fuckers move super fast and heal super quick. And dont say phoenixs "counter" them, because thats complete bullshit. Get a handful of infestors and fungal them. Yes i know fungal is a projectile now, but its still pretty easy to land. And the traditional ht/archon defense doesnt really cut it anymore, even if you get a storm off on the clump, they heal absurdly quickly. Any master zergs in this thread, what have you lost to while doing this?
My only "solution" thus far is going oracles and/or observers to spot them (obs in key postions and revelation on muta flock). But even then, the purpose of the mutas is just to buy time for the z to take 5 bases and mass up on whatever they want (usually ultra). Perhaps i should try turtling and going skytoss every game? (cuz that sounds super fun) I'll give you a hint: phoenix, tempest, ht, archons. thanks for the useful tip. wasn't aware i had infinite gas off 3 base. Anyone with actual advice?
some more hints: cannons only cost minerals.
i didnt say u should only make those units. just listing the end game compositipn vs mass mutas. and it doesnt matter that u dont have infinite gas cause ur way more efficient in trading inside ur base in mid game or anywhere on the map in late game.
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On February 26 2013 04:53 gobbledydook wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2013 04:30 Mavvie wrote:
Open stargate and get lots of phoenixes...be careful, it requires micro to pull off.
I've seen lots of pro protoss players throwing down 3 stargates when they see the spire, and hitting this INSANE phoenix/immortal/zealot/archon timing that absolutely crushes heavy muta play. Cannons are your friend while you buy time for the phoenix count to increase. When the mutalisks see the three stargates, wouldn't Zerg transition immediately back into Infestor tech?
Yea..
Maybe some heavy air play to put pressure before a proper infestor tech switch can be done? Not sure.
On February 26 2013 05:06 agahamsorr0w wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2013 03:37 da_head wrote:On February 26 2013 03:32 agahamsorr0w wrote:On February 26 2013 03:01 da_head wrote:
How do you stop this shit? It's incredibly infuriating (in hots). The fuckers move super fast and heal super quick. And dont say phoenixs "counter" them, because thats complete bullshit. Get a handful of infestors and fungal them. Yes i know fungal is a projectile now, but its still pretty easy to land. And the traditional ht/archon defense doesnt really cut it anymore, even if you get a storm off on the clump, they heal absurdly quickly. Any master zergs in this thread, what have you lost to while doing this?
My only "solution" thus far is going oracles and/or observers to spot them (obs in key postions and revelation on muta flock). But even then, the purpose of the mutas is just to buy time for the z to take 5 bases and mass up on whatever they want (usually ultra). Perhaps i should try turtling and going skytoss every game? (cuz that sounds super fun) I'll give you a hint: phoenix, tempest, ht, archons. thanks for the useful tip. wasn't aware i had infinite gas off 3 base. Anyone with actual advice? some more hints: cannons only cost minerals. i didnt say u should only make those units. just listing the end game compositipn vs mass mutas. and it doesnt matter that u dont have infinite gas cause ur way more efficient in trading inside ur base in mid game or anywhere on the map in late game.
I specifically stated that i had trouble dealing with muta -> map control -> into w/e tech the zerg wants. Not pure mass mutas. Ill just ignore any further posts you make. Thanks.
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On February 26 2013 05:13 da_head wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2013 04:53 gobbledydook wrote:On February 26 2013 04:30 Mavvie wrote:
Open stargate and get lots of phoenixes...be careful, it requires micro to pull off.
I've seen lots of pro protoss players throwing down 3 stargates when they see the spire, and hitting this INSANE phoenix/immortal/zealot/archon timing that absolutely crushes heavy muta play. Cannons are your friend while you buy time for the phoenix count to increase. When the mutalisks see the three stargates, wouldn't Zerg transition immediately back into Infestor tech? Yea.. Maybe some heavy air play to put pressure before a proper infestor tech switch can be done? Not sure. Show nested quote +On February 26 2013 05:06 agahamsorr0w wrote:On February 26 2013 03:37 da_head wrote:On February 26 2013 03:32 agahamsorr0w wrote:On February 26 2013 03:01 da_head wrote:
How do you stop this shit? It's incredibly infuriating (in hots). The fuckers move super fast and heal super quick. And dont say phoenixs "counter" them, because thats complete bullshit. Get a handful of infestors and fungal them. Yes i know fungal is a projectile now, but its still pretty easy to land. And the traditional ht/archon defense doesnt really cut it anymore, even if you get a storm off on the clump, they heal absurdly quickly. Any master zergs in this thread, what have you lost to while doing this?
My only "solution" thus far is going oracles and/or observers to spot them (obs in key postions and revelation on muta flock). But even then, the purpose of the mutas is just to buy time for the z to take 5 bases and mass up on whatever they want (usually ultra). Perhaps i should try turtling and going skytoss every game? (cuz that sounds super fun) I'll give you a hint: phoenix, tempest, ht, archons. thanks for the useful tip. wasn't aware i had infinite gas off 3 base. Anyone with actual advice? some more hints: cannons only cost minerals. i didnt say u should only make those units. just listing the end game compositipn vs mass mutas. and it doesnt matter that u dont have infinite gas cause ur way more efficient in trading inside ur base in mid game or anywhere on the map in late game. I specifically stated that i had trouble dealing with muta -> map control -> into w/e tech the zerg wants. Not pure mass mutas. Ill just ignore any further posts you make. Thanks.
oh ok hahahah then why do u post on a mass muta thread? it's like me posting something on hots about legacy of the void and expecting serious comments. I can sense ur pretty mad man. Tried some yoga?
And vs map control mutas, you still make phoenix but stop making them after 6-7 as normal. And seriously, depending on what hes doing u should react to it.
User was warned for this post
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On February 26 2013 06:03 agahamsorr0w wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2013 05:13 da_head wrote:On February 26 2013 04:53 gobbledydook wrote:On February 26 2013 04:30 Mavvie wrote:
Open stargate and get lots of phoenixes...be careful, it requires micro to pull off.
I've seen lots of pro protoss players throwing down 3 stargates when they see the spire, and hitting this INSANE phoenix/immortal/zealot/archon timing that absolutely crushes heavy muta play. Cannons are your friend while you buy time for the phoenix count to increase. When the mutalisks see the three stargates, wouldn't Zerg transition immediately back into Infestor tech? Yea.. Maybe some heavy air play to put pressure before a proper infestor tech switch can be done? Not sure. On February 26 2013 05:06 agahamsorr0w wrote:On February 26 2013 03:37 da_head wrote:On February 26 2013 03:32 agahamsorr0w wrote:On February 26 2013 03:01 da_head wrote:
How do you stop this shit? It's incredibly infuriating (in hots). The fuckers move super fast and heal super quick. And dont say phoenixs "counter" them, because thats complete bullshit. Get a handful of infestors and fungal them. Yes i know fungal is a projectile now, but its still pretty easy to land. And the traditional ht/archon defense doesnt really cut it anymore, even if you get a storm off on the clump, they heal absurdly quickly. Any master zergs in this thread, what have you lost to while doing this?
My only "solution" thus far is going oracles and/or observers to spot them (obs in key postions and revelation on muta flock). But even then, the purpose of the mutas is just to buy time for the z to take 5 bases and mass up on whatever they want (usually ultra). Perhaps i should try turtling and going skytoss every game? (cuz that sounds super fun) I'll give you a hint: phoenix, tempest, ht, archons. thanks for the useful tip. wasn't aware i had infinite gas off 3 base. Anyone with actual advice? some more hints: cannons only cost minerals. i didnt say u should only make those units. just listing the end game compositipn vs mass mutas. and it doesnt matter that u dont have infinite gas cause ur way more efficient in trading inside ur base in mid game or anywhere on the map in late game. I specifically stated that i had trouble dealing with muta -> map control -> into w/e tech the zerg wants. Not pure mass mutas. Ill just ignore any further posts you make. Thanks. oh ok hahahah then why do u post on a mass muta thread? it's like me posting something on hots about legacy of the void and expecting serious comments. I can sense ur pretty mad man. Tried some yoga? And vs map control mutas, you still make phoenix but stop making them after 6-7 as normal. And seriously, depending on what hes doing u should react to it.
Because im asking about what zerg players who open up mutas have trouble dealing with against toss? So that way i may find solutions? Please refrain from posting unless you have something useful to contribute instead of asking if im mad or telling me to make 6 phoenix and scouting. Rofl.
And yea, i have dealt with zergs who make 30-40 mutas, and when im finally able to deal with it, he tech switches to something else (for examples ultras to rape my stalkers and hts). So i figured it would make sense to post in a thread about MASS MUTA to see what zergs are having trouble with so i can apply some pressure back before they get a super eco and i lose.
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I have been owning high masters toss players with mass mutas, if they dont make a 2 base all in its usually a win for me, 1 funny thing I do is I throw down spire and hydralisk den at the same time, so when they scout me they think im gong hydras, usually this forces them to go colossi and that only makes my first pack of mutas to make more damage.
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I feel the build of Life against Parting, with ling Hydra into mass mutalisk way more stronger, because the first wave of ground unit do a ton of damage, reducing the stalker count and hard counter Immortal sentry all in.
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On February 26 2013 21:39 Vanadiel wrote:
I feel the build of Life against Parting, with ling Hydra into mass mutalisk way more stronger, because the first wave of ground unit do a ton of damage, reducing the stalker count and hard counter Immortal sentry all in.
Its definitely viable but on maps like cloud kingdom I dont really like it. The straight muta opening is much more map neutral, however on something like antiga or even ohana I like the hydra build
On February 26 2013 13:23 DjSweetBazz wrote:
I have been owning high masters toss players with mass mutas, if they dont make a 2 base all in its usually a win for me, 1 funny thing I do is I throw down spire and hydralisk den at the same time, so when they scout me they think im gong hydras, usually this forces them to go colossi and that only makes my first pack of mutas to make more damage.
Yea i do that a lot with a proxied spire its very good. People have commented its a bit of a gimmick, which it is, but its very cheap to do, not a total wasted investment anyway and can work beautifully.
On February 26 2013 05:13 da_head wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2013 04:53 gobbledydook wrote:On February 26 2013 04:30 Mavvie wrote:
Open stargate and get lots of phoenixes...be careful, it requires micro to pull off.
I've seen lots of pro protoss players throwing down 3 stargates when they see the spire, and hitting this INSANE phoenix/immortal/zealot/archon timing that absolutely crushes heavy muta play. Cannons are your friend while you buy time for the phoenix count to increase. When the mutalisks see the three stargates, wouldn't Zerg transition immediately back into Infestor tech? Yea.. Maybe some heavy air play to put pressure before a proper infestor tech switch can be done? Not sure. Show nested quote +On February 26 2013 05:06 agahamsorr0w wrote:On February 26 2013 03:37 da_head wrote:On February 26 2013 03:32 agahamsorr0w wrote:On February 26 2013 03:01 da_head wrote:
How do you stop this shit? It's incredibly infuriating (in hots). The fuckers move super fast and heal super quick. And dont say phoenixs "counter" them, because thats complete bullshit. Get a handful of infestors and fungal them. Yes i know fungal is a projectile now, but its still pretty easy to land. And the traditional ht/archon defense doesnt really cut it anymore, even if you get a storm off on the clump, they heal absurdly quickly. Any master zergs in this thread, what have you lost to while doing this?
My only "solution" thus far is going oracles and/or observers to spot them (obs in key postions and revelation on muta flock). But even then, the purpose of the mutas is just to buy time for the z to take 5 bases and mass up on whatever they want (usually ultra). Perhaps i should try turtling and going skytoss every game? (cuz that sounds super fun) I'll give you a hint: phoenix, tempest, ht, archons. thanks for the useful tip. wasn't aware i had infinite gas off 3 base. Anyone with actual advice? some more hints: cannons only cost minerals. i didnt say u should only make those units. just listing the end game compositipn vs mass mutas. and it doesnt matter that u dont have infinite gas cause ur way more efficient in trading inside ur base in mid game or anywhere on the map in late game. I specifically stated that i had trouble dealing with muta -> map control -> into w/e tech the zerg wants. Not pure mass mutas. Ill just ignore any further posts you make. Thanks.
In HotS i think you should open stargate every game and if you just make more phoenixs and control them well muta vs phoenix is unviable. The increased default range makes it impossible for zerg to do anything with mutalisks if protoss has good control. Its mechanically demanding for protoss but thats the solution.
As for zerg transitioning, phoenixs are pretty good for lifting infestors and can be good harass all game long if you keep them alive. Zergs tech is much later and upgrades are normally delayed. Basically if you deflect the mutas without losing too much, he will be more behind than you are.
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On February 26 2013 21:39 Vanadiel wrote:
I feel the build of Life against Parting, with ling Hydra into mass mutalisk way more stronger, because the first wave of ground unit do a ton of damage, reducing the stalker count and hard counter Immortal sentry all in.
I've played around with the hydra opener. Basically I find its a lot stronger against people that go quick third bases. But its weaker against just about everything else. Infact if they happen to go blind 2 base colossus you pretty much outright lose, altough this is uncommon, if your opponent knows your style they might still do it. Also if you do the hydra build vs immortal sentry you end up in a situation where the protoss can just run away, forcefield and add colossus and a third. They'll be behind but they'll be in a playable position where as if you go muta, they have 0 probes and HAVE to try to break your spines. Good thing is most protosses that do the immortal sentry allin won't be able to play the macro game that well because all of their games end at 12:00.
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On February 27 2013 17:35 Moonrisesc wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2013 21:39 Vanadiel wrote:
I feel the build of Life against Parting, with ling Hydra into mass mutalisk way more stronger, because the first wave of ground unit do a ton of damage, reducing the stalker count and hard counter Immortal sentry all in. I've played around with the hydra opener. Basically I find its a lot stronger against people that go quick third bases. But its weaker against just about everything else. Infact if they happen to go blind 2 base colossus you pretty much outright lose, altough this is uncommon, if your opponent knows your style they might still do it. Also if you do the hydra build vs immortal sentry you end up in a situation where the protoss can just run away, forcefield and add colossus and a third. They'll be behind but they'll be in a playable position where as if you go muta, they have 0 probes and HAVE to try to break your spines. Good thing is most protosses that do the immortal sentry allin won't be able to play the macro game that well because all of their games end at 12:00.
I disagree with the part where it is weaker against everything else, because I actually feel like it's way better to defend against most of 2 base (tech) all in, because it allow you to save your third base and maintain an 6 gaz income . No one should go blind 2 base collossi, I know that Parting did and win with it against Life, but to be honest I'm pretty sure you can scout it with an overlord/overseer and just put down a roach warren in time and overrun the army. And about the 7 gates immortal sentry all in, if he goes back and start a third/collosi you still have a timing to attack with ling hydralisk before the range upgrade of collosi and do a lot of damage with it, and then the mutalisk transition is deadly.
WHat I really like with this opening is that you can control the pace of the game and be the agressor.
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On February 27 2013 19:25 Vanadiel wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2013 17:35 Moonrisesc wrote:On February 26 2013 21:39 Vanadiel wrote:
I feel the build of Life against Parting, with ling Hydra into mass mutalisk way more stronger, because the first wave of ground unit do a ton of damage, reducing the stalker count and hard counter Immortal sentry all in. I've played around with the hydra opener. Basically I find its a lot stronger against people that go quick third bases. But its weaker against just about everything else. Infact if they happen to go blind 2 base colossus you pretty much outright lose, altough this is uncommon, if your opponent knows your style they might still do it. Also if you do the hydra build vs immortal sentry you end up in a situation where the protoss can just run away, forcefield and add colossus and a third. They'll be behind but they'll be in a playable position where as if you go muta, they have 0 probes and HAVE to try to break your spines. Good thing is most protosses that do the immortal sentry allin won't be able to play the macro game that well because all of their games end at 12:00. I disagree with the part where it is weaker against everything else, because I actually feel like it's way better to defend against most of 2 base (tech) all in, because it allow you to save your third base and maintain an 6 gaz income . No one should go blind 2 base collossi, I know that Parting did and win with it against Life, but to be honest I'm pretty sure you can scout it with an overlord/overseer and just put down a roach warren in time and overrun the army. And about the 7 gates immortal sentry all in, if he goes back and start a third/collosi you still have a timing to attack with ling hydralisk before the range upgrade of collosi and do a lot of damage with it, and then the mutalisk transition is deadly. WHat I really like with this opening is that you can control the pace of the game and be the agressor.
If the protoss understands how to react to hydralisks he will definitely be able to survive the counter push. Its working amazingly currently because most protoss havnt seen a hydralisk in over a year but going hydralisk and shoving back at protoss was a common strategy with earlier 3 hatch openings vs 7g robo or blink.
It works amazingly if protoss sticks around and takes fights, but if protoss just pull back, get colossus and a third pretty quickly and stall with force fields they can avoid giving zerg any good engagements even though zerg has this amazing compositional advantage. Hydralisks are really damn slow off creep and sentries can seriously abuse that.
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I love Mutalisks so seeing threads like this make me smile Reading through the details now!
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Mutalisk play is impossible to stop as Protoss. I am low Masters and the Zerg I have encountered throw both a spire and infestor pit down at the same time. It is just impossible to counter. If they see you are building phoenix they just go infestor and rofl stomp you. If they see you only have built 3-4 phoenix they make 20 mutalisks in one go and own you that way. Can't wait for HotS T_T
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Waiting for hots when mutas dont fear storms anymore? I dont understand how to kill this style in wol, and i fear hots becasue of new mutas even more. If you play patiently and get 3base storm good upgrades and dont lose probes, zerg is just going to get 40+spines and you will never win a basetrade, and if you react fast you might not have enough to kill the ever-growing muta ball. Im losing to people much worse than me if they use this guide.
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On March 03 2013 02:42 FrashQ wrote:
Waiting for hots when mutas dont fear storms anymore? I dont understand how to kill this style in wol, and i fear hots becasue of new mutas even more. If you play patiently and get 3base storm good upgrades and dont lose probes, zerg is just going to get 40+spines and you will never win a basetrade, and if you react fast you might not have enough to kill the ever-growing muta ball. Im losing to people much worse than me if they use this guide.
There not worse than you if you losing. But i agree this style is extremely frustrating to deal with as toss. Ive been surviving by building 4 cannons at each base while teching up to HT and going up to blink 12 gateways and moving out around 150 supply with warp prism. all excess minerals go to cannoning my 3rd. By that i mean like 15-20 cannons with 2 hts. I move out with like 8 hts and storm everything that moves.
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In WOL, if you spot the spire being thrown down and you see that he has not made any other units, then you should be safe assuming it's mutalisks. Even if you're wrong, it shouldn't be an auto-loss or anything. The key is to get a quick third base, so defend your main and natural with cannons and high templar and then keep trying to plant the third down, once it's down you should be able to mass up an army of stalker, zealot, high templar, archon - that's really difficult for the Zerg to beat once you have enough. Just keep scouting to make sure they aren't tech switching. Obviously if you see that they're upgrading melee attack and carapace, and you see an ultralisk cavern then ultralisk are on the way - storm is still going to be good versus lings and now you need to add immortals.
As for HOTS, phoenix have an additional range to start and they also have the bonus range upgrade. Right now in WOL, phoenix range is 4 with an upgrade to 6, in HOTS it'll be base 5 with an upgrade to 7 - so if you get that upgrade you'll be doing really well. Unlike WOL, the fleet beacon will be very useful to you besides just the phoenix range upgrade because you can transition into tempest which are very strong versus Zerg late game.
I think in general Protoss will have less trouble versus mutalisk overall because the metagame will involve a lot of Protoss opening stargate, so that should immediately result in fewer Zergs going for mutalisk. Secondly, because the stargate tech is likely going to be integral to the best late game PvZ army, throwing one or two down in response to a spire will be greatly beneficial, unlike in WOL where maybe you won't be using them at all post-phoenix production.
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On March 03 2013 02:54 MysteryMeat1 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2013 02:42 FrashQ wrote:
Waiting for hots when mutas dont fear storms anymore? I dont understand how to kill this style in wol, and i fear hots becasue of new mutas even more. If you play patiently and get 3base storm good upgrades and dont lose probes, zerg is just going to get 40+spines and you will never win a basetrade, and if you react fast you might not have enough to kill the ever-growing muta ball. Im losing to people much worse than me if they use this guide. There not worse than you if you losing. But i agree this style is extremely frustrating to deal with as toss. Ive been surviving by building 4 cannons at each base while teching up to HT and going up to blink 12 gateways and moving out around 150 supply with warp prism. all excess minerals go to cannoning my 3rd. By that i mean like 15-20 cannons with 2 hts. I move out with like 8 hts and storm everything that moves.
Not sure what level you are, so this may be redundant, but this is pretty much the best reactive counter to the strategy. My friend fiveyearold (GM protoss) says he basically does the same. He explained it to me as such:
1) Fast third, and he typically goes for a 4gate pressure into blink + third, but any robo and/or twilight expand works
2) Blink of course, and on some maps get a cannon or two at the most exposed base to deal with the initial wave.
3) Chrono out blink, observers, double forge, and go for DTs before storm (very important!)
4) Do some DT harass to deny the mad bases, almost no zerg will go through the effort to spine/spore up all 7 bases they take
5) Storm immediately after DTs, begin massing cannons and preemptively rebuilding tech at your third (only need like 4 gates, core, templar archives).
6) For example, on Entombed Valley you mass cannons in your natural and third, and move around your archon/HT force to deny ANY attempt at baseracing. On Ohana you probably have to sac your main, so it's best not to build your tech there in the first place. Just...cannons everywhere, and zone out mutas with archon/HT
7) Once you max out, 1a across the map with your main army and win the game. If you want you can get one colossus to break the spines eventually, or you could just use good blink micro. As always, more archons, more chance of win.
I totally agree with him, as it's pretty much all I lose to when doing this style.
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Hey Iksf! First of all, I just wanted to say thanks for this guide. Finding it in the last two months of WoL completely revolutionized my ZvP, bringing me from 40-50% winrate to almost 100% and helping me finally get promoted to masters.
I'm still using this build in HotS, but I have a couple of questions now that some units have changed.
First off, if the protoss opens stargate and builds a ton of phoenixes (10-15) I feel like I have to give up on mutas, If he only builds 5-6 I can just play normally, maybe with an infestor or two, but if he builds many I can't really engage him thanks to the new range. My current solution is to throw down a hydra den with the spire and start 1/1 and go for a hydra/ling timing (with an ultra/viper transition) if I see continued phoenix production. Is this the correct solution? Do I really need to abandon mass muta vs heavy stargate?
Secondly, If a protoss does the warpgate/mothercore push off two bases, I find I have to devote a lot of resources to hold it without losing my third, and I can't really saturate properly. In that position, trying to transition back to mass muta usually leaves me open for a follow-up attack. Should I just abandon mass muta entirely and transition to some sort of hydra/infestor/swarm host/etc play if he is doing a warpgate push?
Thanks again for the guide, you rock!
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Personally, I never give up on mutas. If they hold initially with Phoenix add lingsinstead of spines to shut down their third. Then add in corrupters and make a big maxed push. Use muta/corrupter to defend expos as you mass expand, rather than harass.
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Does muta armor reduce storm damage?
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Mutalisks are so unfair against protoss, because at one point, you can't defend against it anymore. Even if you cannot scout the spire its often insta-GG.
Could some Mutalisk-Abuser tell me how to win as Protoss against mass mutaslisk?
@Vulture174, no armor doesnt help against storms.
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On April 10 2013 00:17 SalvationII wrote:
Mutalisks are so unfair against protoss, because at one point, you can't defend against it anymore. Even if you cannot scout the spire its often insta-GG.
Could some Mutalisk-Abuser tell me how to win as Protoss against mass mutaslisk?
If you can, have a look at DRG vs FLYING (code S group B, played today). DRG had a ton of mutas, probably more than 24 actually, both were struggling to secure their forth (only exp they could mine).
DRG was flying everywhere and slowly destroying flying's bases.
the only way for flying to secure his forth was a good number of cannon (something like 15) with 2 archons and a HT.
All while his main army (few coloss, lots of stalkers, archons and ht) were denying DRG's 4th.
DRG had SH and muta with many spinecrawlers, but ultimately DRG lost, despite he really abused Flying with the muta.
(best way is still to watch the game, should soon be on youtube i believe as it is the WCS qualifier)
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The best way I have seen is open stargate, keep making Phoenix, get a second stargate FAST, and go looking to pick fights with mutas to keep the count down. Lots of cannons, especially at the third...but more for ling defense.
Basically you need to scout mutas fast and keep Phoenix count close to mutas.
Avoid a situation where you have 30 Phoenix and Zerg has 40 mutas....they can just whip by and snipe a base or two. constantly trade.i
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On April 10 2013 00:05 Vulture174 wrote:
Does muta armor reduce storm damage?
No, armor doesn't affect spells.
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Gonna try this tonight on ladder. (diamond)
I've been trying 2 base swarmhost with 0 success.
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Reactive phoenix with the range upgrade really do fine. The most important thing is just not to be surprised so constantly use hallucinations, revelation etc. to scout what they are doing. Later on you want to be aggressive enough so they simply can't get a sudden 20 muta's.
Even then reactive phoenix with some cannons to buy time works just fine I think. You should basically have a stargate almost every game anyway now, so moment you see spire you can just throw down another stargate and fleet beacon.
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On April 10 2013 00:17 SalvationII wrote:
Mutalisks are so unfair against protoss, because at one point, you can't defend against it anymore. Even if you cannot scout the spire its often insta-GG.
Could some Mutalisk-Abuser tell me how to win as Protoss against mass mutaslisk?
@Vulture174, no armor doesnt help against storms.
You can move-command pheonix on the minimap and you cannot possibly lose vs pure muta.
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Yea at the moment i dont think this is solid at the moment in Hots. It was amazing in WoL and im trying to work something out to revive it, but atm phoenix play is too strong.
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I haven't encountered a heavy phoenix build yet, only a few sprinkled in, but so far I have 100% win rate with this build. Lots of fun to play and nothing has really put up a good fight yet. Playing at the high Platinum level and just started this build, so execution is far from perfect, but so far it's been landslide victories.
Thanks for the great write up. I needed something to get some wins vs P and this is doing it so far.
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Opening with 3-4 corrupters before you go mass muta is good for HOTS, because the corrupters will negate the phoenix, i've been going pure muta ling corrupter into like speedling baneling with swarmhosts and spine crawlers, use the mutas and corrupters to force the toss to keep massing pheonix, micro the mutas behind the corrupters so the pheonix cant hit the mutas, then use the mutas to harass and snipe probes / expos while corrupters and defending the mutas.
EDIT : I have been opening with an early +1 melee upgrade for the lings because muta ling / corrupter into baneling or swarmhosts is good, you have to be able to combat the ground army as well so I think that +1 is very good with the mutas, mutas without lings is just not as strong as muta ling ect.
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I hate when players, especially pros use a mass unit type to win, leads to boring games, this is the only part I truly hate about sc, you should have to have multiple unit types with micro from all to win a game, mass muta, voids, marines, ect is lame as fuck and I boo the players that use these styles, and blizzard for making them viable.
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On April 12 2013 02:26 TheLunatic wrote:
I hate when players, especially pros use a mass unit type to win, leads to boring games, this is the only part I truly hate about sc, you should have to have multiple unit types with micro from all to win a game, mass muta, voids, marines, ect is lame as fuck and I boo the players that use these styles, and blizzard for making them viable.
Yea I can see that. This does feel a bit cheesy. But for me at least, where Protoss is compared to where Zerg is, it's the only way to keep up. Hopefully this style, however cheesy you may find it, will evolve into a new metagame for the matchup. Going mass Muta as the only viable option may eventually evolve into something more complex once people figure out HOW to transition to a few less muta's and more other stuff (stuff that wont get ROFLSTOMPED by ff's, voids, collos, HT's)..
The speedlings in the beginning of the game and the ability to abandon the muta plan based on what you scout and the number of drones/expansions up also cuts down on the cheesy feel for me.
For now, since ZvP basically meant auto-loss for me before this build, I'll be experimenting with it quite a bit.
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EPT
