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[G] Mass Mutalisk ZvP for 2013

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Iksf
Profile Joined March 2011
United Kingdom444 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-01-21 09:15:10
January 19 2013 20:52 GMT
#1
Iksf's guide to mass mutalisk ZvP in 2013

[image loading]

Recently, IEM being a good example, protoss have been having a reasonably easy time vs broodlord infestor. 3 base timings are becoming very reliable for killing zergs going for quick broodlords and protoss early game harassment has evolved to keep zerg from droning as they wish. Zerg spends the entire game turtling up to this broodlord infestor composition, while constantly worrying about any random 2/3 base push, pressure, warp prism etc. the protoss wishes.

Then in the late game, should the protoss play for it or if their 3 base push was ineffective, though zerg have historically done well in late game ZvP, it becomes very hard for zerg to end the game or punish protoss greed or mistakes. This leaves you with huge long boring games where the zerg slowly closes any possibility of loss by adding static defence, upgrades and maxing on pure broodfestor to finally take the win after 40 mins of boredom, provided they were able to deflect every form of pressure the protoss has thrown at them for the whole game.

Zerg can naturally push before their ultimate god army to try and preserve some small sense of enjoyment from ZvP late game however are then left to deal with a bunch of very bad mechanics to try and win late game fights, mainly praying for bad vortexes, overaggressive blinks or a lucky neural.

I think I speak for everyone when I say this late game is one of the worst things in the entirety of sc2.


Having long given up on broodlord infestor for a good 8 months or so iv been working on refining an alternative way to play ZvP. Using old games from early 2011, my own experiments and ladder experiences as well as games from people such as nestea who never truly gave up on mutalisks in the matchup I came up with a pretty solid set of timings to provide an alternative to broodfestor. However I never really believed it was a true alternative.

In IEM though zerg attempting to play broodlord have by and large been dominated by protoss and there have been several games where a zerg has tried to throw together something with mutalisks to try to win. I was surprised at how unsuccessful most of these mutalisk attempts were or I disagreed with how the zerg executed it so I decided to write this.

Basic build

+ Show Spoiler +

Standard 3 hatch opening to 6 mins, assuming forge expansion into some generic robo 3rd or something else reasonably passive, for a base to work with.

14/15 pool
15/16 hatch
15 overlord
15 queen
2 lings + extras as required
22 queen
24 hatchery
@6:10 3 gas
Lair
Speed
Spire
7:45 3 gas


I don’t really care if people want to do 11 pools, faster gas or 3rd hatch before queen or whatever it really doesn’t matter its at around 6 mins things become more interesting.

~ 6-6.30 3 gas should be taken allowing a lair to be started at around or slightly before 7 mins.
3 gas at 6:30 mins like some players for example leenock use is too late for this. 2 gas at 6 mins is fine, as is 3 before 6:20 or a single gas much earlier, whatever you wish.

We are then going to sack an overlord in the main at around 6:30, especially if there is no gas taken at the natural. Protoss gates for basically any form of aggression go down around this timing and as we want to be droning as hard as we can getting good scouting information is vital. The other main thing we are looking for is a Stargate.

If there’s no Stargate or gates, what he is doing doesn’t really matter that much to you any more. For this example the protoss has a robo and no 4 gate morphing in and the gas at his natural is being taken at around 6:30 implying either immortal all in or a robo 3rd.

From here we get zergling speed and extra gas such that we can afford a spire once the lair is done. If you double gassed at 6 getting another 2 gas with your lair will work out fine, as will just running off 3 gas from around 6:15. Adjust to however you prefer to manage your gas.

Once the spire is started we continue to whack out drones as hard as we can until around 8 mins. At around 7:45 we add on the rest of our gas.

At this point you should have a solid 3 base saturation 6 gasses running, 2 lings + any the protoss forced out of you. You should have no problem hitting a good 70 supply by 8 mins if the protoss doesn’t apply more than 1 gate of pressure. My personal record is at 88 with this build.

Once we have 3 base saturation it is unsafe for us to take a 4th and proceed to drone until the protoss has confirmed to be going for a 3rd. So once 3 base saturation has been reached produce zerglings constantly, no macro hatch is needed at this point. Continue production of zerglings until spire is approx half way complete, you should get a good 60+ odd out if there is no 3rd by this time.

These zerglings serve two main functions, the most important of which is to slow 7 gate robo pushes moving across the map. They can also slow late 3rds a bit and generally just be a nuisance. Combine with overlord creep to block the 3rd for as long as you can though don’t throw the lings away for free.

Once your spire is half way complete cut any ling production and begin saving minerals, gas and larva. From here for as long as the protoss isn’t trying to take a 3rd add on spines at your natural. Once your spire completes assure you have enough to make a good 14+ mutalisks in one big wave. The rest of your minerals should go into spines if there is no third. If it is just simply a very late 3rd you should have time to cancel the spines.

I have not neglected to mention upgrades, I simply do not get any ling or roach upgrades all game for the most part. Eventually in the game there may be nothing better to get but for the early game, money required to get these upgrades going isn't worthwhile. This has been a major reason that mutas are underused. By burning gas on upgrades you are unable to keep the investment in mutalisks required to make this style work.

[image loading][image loading]



4 gate pressure
+ Show Spoiler +


Between the early overlord sack and scouting the natural gas you should be able to see this is coming well before 7 mins. Simply add on a roach warren, lings, perhaps a spine as needed and hold, then continue. Adding a roach warren isn’t that big of an investment so if you want to do that blind its not a big deal, though roaches are useless other than for survival. People with early speed builds can deal with it with lings if they prefer


7 gate
+ Show Spoiler +


Drop any concern for this build out of your mind, get roaches up as quickly as you can and just try to survive. If you survive without large damage you basically win doing whatever.


4 gate twilight
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Can open into 7 gate blink or a DT build. For the Dts your lair should be sufficiently early to make overseers and units. If your lair is delayed you can make an evo for spores. For 7 gate blink produce roach ling, stay on creep, tech to infestors then crush his army. Usual stuff.

[image loading]
Not this time protoss!



Straight 7 gate blink
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Though this build is really bad its still used sometimes. The lings you produce slow this a lot and mutas should be out in plenty of time to either crush or base race vs this.


7 gate robo
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The big one. This build can definitely hold 7 gate robo. The large flood of zerglings slow the push a good bit. Getting a good pack of mutalisks out in combination with your lings to counter attack is normally the most successful choice though some pushes can be simply engaged. When at the protoss base sniping the cybercore is very high priority, if you can get it down quickly the game is yours, simply make more mutas until you can just roll the stalkers and sentries heads up. Stop him mining asap as a full base race is not uncommon.

A strong spine wall at your natural is required to keep you alive and sacking the 3rd is normally necessary. The wall must be at least 2 spines thick, preferable 3 and as dense as possible. Focus firing the spines on stalkers is normally the best idea, just make sure they arnt killing zealots. You also must use queens lings and spare mutas to control warp prism elevator pushes past the spine wall. Production of many lings is really not recommended, save money for spines and mutas. +1 on mutas helps a lot, definitely worth the money. Make sure your overlords do not die, this can be hugely important in base races as the protoss will never have enough money to rebuild all his lost pylons, leaving no army or probe production for a long time. giving you a huge mineral lead.

[image loading]
A strong spinewall buys much time vs an immortal all in


Worst case scenario the game may evolve into a full on base race so hide drones on the map etc., however its normally possible to force the protoss out of your base before you lose your main leaving you the only one mining. Also incorrect micro from him can result in him losing stalkers and sentries to the spine wall leaving you with enough mutas to crush him.

Overall iv found this method much more reliable than any roach ling or infestor hold vs 7 gate robo.


The other 7 gate robo (prism gate all in)
+ Show Spoiler +


This is a real pain.

A spread of lings and overlords + good map awareness to see the warp prism coming is essential for giving you the reaction time you require, fortunately most people who do this build do the same path with prism per map. To hold this you basically need to accept +1 zealots are too crazy good to make much ling production worthwhile. If you blindly built a roach warren your in a pretty good spot just make roaches, micro a bit and you should be alright. If you didn’t you have to get at least one spine per base down asap, preferably more and stall to mutas. When a good 15 mutas pop out you should be able to crush the push and take the game

But its a real pain.

[image loading]
A slightly late reaction from Nerchio is all Daisy needs to close the series 3-0



2x Stargate
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This is the hard counter to this style. Fortunately this build is normally awful, relatively unused and easy to scout. Just abandon this do a roach hydra push or something you’ll be fine.


Single Stargate
+ Show Spoiler +

This is one of protoss 2 best chances of getting to a good place in a macro game vs this, however there are many different ways of dealing with it

Infestor

+ Show Spoiler +

Once Stargate is scouted, entire style can be abandoned in favour of ling infestor. Just add evos and spores, get infestation pit once lair completes, continue with a more conventional ZvP style.


Roach
+ Show Spoiler +


Just going for a roach heavy Max push, sometimes with burrow move or drop is very good against Stargate builds normally, your roach warren may be a little late but its not the biggest deal. From there you can transition to infestor or back into mutalisk. There are many old reps and vods, especially from DRG where roach ling into muta is used, commonly against Stargate openers.

[image loading]
Deciding against Mutalisks this game, the zerg has plenty of room to transition towards standard play.



Vive la Mutalisks!
+ Show Spoiler +

[image loading]
A deadly dance between mutalisk and phoenix commences


There is are still a good few tricks you can use to defeat phoenixes with this opener

Naturally ofc you need to get spores up and use the lings you produced to stop a greedy 3rd or deny pylons for 4 gate Stargate.

Fortunately for us the way people go Stargate. at the moment is to normally make X amount of phoenix then move out in a big wave to try catch zerg by surprise. Additional phoenix production is not normally continued until a spire is seen. When 15 mutalisks pop the protoss is forced back a good bit. Proper mutalisk micro can be used to defeat these lower phoenix counts without difficulty and this wave of mutas combined with a wave of lings can normally deny a protoss 3rd.

If for whatever reason the phoenix count gets a bit out of control or if phoenix range is researched removing the ability to micro from mutalisks, a single fungal can trap the phoenixes long enough for a muta ball to chew then up pretty bad.

You can also mindgame the protoss by proxying the spire on the map via creep drop. Though a risk, showing something like a hydra den in your main while secretly saving for a deathwave of mutalisks can catch the protoss off guard and end the game as they tech into colossus.

[image loading]
Spire hidden on the map can confuse protoss





2 base mothership
+ Show Spoiler +

Rare build, seems reasonably popular on NA. If anyone was wondering what happens when you mutalisk vs it, you just free win vs every variant iv seen.



Quick 3 base
+ Show Spoiler +

A fast 3rd from protoss lets you get into a macro game with this style vs protoss with no real advantage for either of you. Can sometimes be denied by lings but largely solid style vs mutalisk openers.




After the first wave


Harassment
+ Show Spoiler +

Obviously youv just made a bunch of mutas, you poke around at stuff, do lots of damage vs bad people get largely deflected by good people etc. Stacking mutalisks with an overlord helps massively for sniping pylons etc., focus fire and weave in and out with mutalisks if you must engage stalkers or cannons. Magic box archons and Hts.

Losing mutas is almost always not worthwhile. Main exceptions are focusing down a vulnerable nexus or probe line while protoss is out of position or the forge. Killing the forge or templar archives with mutas helps a huge amount and is definitely worth a couple of mutas if you can get it. Trying to deny blink however is rarely successful so don’t try.

[image loading]
Stacked flock of mutalisks quickly snipe a few free cannons




Expand
+ Show Spoiler +


Once the protoss is sufficiently distracted you should literally be throwing down expansions as the previous one completes, you totally want to zerg the map, you can reasonably safely drone up to well in the 90s, sometimes even in excess of 100 drones just to build a mineral bank. Focus on gas income. Aggressive creep spread isn’t that important you just want to be able to build spines in key areas if you need to. Creep drop all bases on the map, strive for utter map control.

[image loading]
A strong contain on the protoss lets the zerg drone heavily


Get a good spread of overlords to see any warp prisms and spore spine every base. DT can be VERY successful vs this style if you are not prepared. On the flip side however well deflected prisms and Dts can leave protoss even further starved. Throw changelings at the protoss base as you can, to keep an eye on army movement and tech.

Focus on building a ridiculous mutalisk count with good upgrades and enough spines to ensure your survival. For amount of mutas, basically you never have enough, iv had plenty of games with excess of 80 3/3 mutalisks.

Your ultimate goal is to constantly deal cheap damage wherever the protoss presents a vulnerability while denying a 4th. It is insanely hard for protoss to consolidate enough spread out anti air to take a 4th without losing another base in trade. Preserving your early mutalisks is essential to keep this strong grip on the protoss.

Use an individual muta or few mutas to scout around the protoss base while your flock focuses things down to keep track of the stalkers work out where Hts and archons are located and look for good targets for your mutalisks. This helps you stop lose mutas to big blinks and storms. Again keep control of the map so you can never be flanked leaving the protoss base.



Transitioning
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Never transition

Transitioning is the main way people seem to lose when I see them execute all the previous correctly. You have weak ling upgrades and no infestor energy, the second you start burning gas moving into broodlord infestor will give the protoss the relief they need to start pushing you back. Ultralisks baneling hypothetically transitions a bit better but in reality they really not very good.


3 base all in
+ Show Spoiler +


Protoss 3 base all ins are seriously all in the second the protoss moves across the map any hope of the protoss resuming production in the game are gone instantly. Firstly take out the templar archives, the most valuable thing protoss has, also get the cyber core and forge if its researching. Manually controlling a second smaller group of mutalisks to locate and deal with templar scattered through his base is ideal


[image loading]
After 10 minutes of chasing each other around the map the zerg can finally take a head on engagement.



Defending the all in
+ Show Spoiler +

[image loading]
NesTea uses a formidable spine wall to blunt Partings push


Basically burn all your money into spines in key locations.

NesTea in his recent game vs parting on whirlwind used lots of speedbanelings to compliment this. Personally I dislike this, any gas not in mutas imo is gas wasted. However its NesTea, im not going to declare him flat out wrong.

You will commonly have to sack the majority of your bases to survive these pushes but its fine, if you survive with any mining at all your destined to win. You have many bases and protoss cannot safely split his army. Keep good map vision and try and stop probes leaving the protoss base if you can

[image loading]
Poor map control from the zerg throws the protoss a lifeline in a baserace.




Mothership
+ Show Spoiler +

The mothership can be a key tool for protoss vs mass mutalisk. Firstly good use of the motherships recall ability can help protoss take a 4th more safely. This can largely be counteracted by making lots of little to try force the protoss to recall. Once the mothership is out of energy it gives you a large timing to do lots of damage sometimes including killing the mothership.

Vortex can be extremely dangerous to mutalisks, however less so than broodlords. If all your mutalisks get archon toileted you will probably lose however it is reasonably easy to keep the amount of mutalisks that get vortexed pretty low, they are quite fast and your working to keep good vision over everything with changelings etc. As with broodlord toilets rolling in a bunch of banes into a vortex can save your mutalisks and probably win you the game to boot. In the end of the day protoss mothership usage will likely be cost efficient for them, but its a huge vulnerability.

By the time protoss gets a mothership out without dying and gets energy they will be running on vapours, even taking some pretty cost ineffective trades to keep them contained is normally fine, you should be banking a ridiculous amount by this time.

Motherships can also be dangerous in elimination races, aka sitting on top of a pylon etc. allowing other protoss armies to move more independently. This can be an irritation but iv never lost a game because of it.


I will add more replays when I can find some good examples. Recently formatted computer and replays I do have arnt really ideal examples.

Some replays from a friend of mine, moonrise. He does the same style but his own personal preferances on gas etc. but overall the same.

Stargate
http://drop.sc/296943

7g robo
http://drop.sc/296939
http://drop.sc/296941
Iksf
Profile Joined March 2011
United Kingdom444 Posts
January 19 2013 20:53 GMT
#2
Please ask questions I will try answer as best as I can
DexLy
Profile Joined April 2011
Sweden34 Posts
January 19 2013 20:53 GMT
#3
Why are you so good
shlood
Profile Joined March 2011
United States12 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-01-19 22:21:30
January 19 2013 21:13 GMT
#4
I'm a high master zerg who does this every game vs protoss (and have been for a while) would love to exchange notes some time lol. So what is your record for most mutas at once? Mine is 80 :D
Everything that you have said is literally exactly what I do. The idea of never transitioning and never adding speed banes I think is very important and probably why this style isn't used more often. People think they have to transition and it always screws them over. The only thing I do different is against 1 stargate I generally mix in ~4 corruptors to counter phoenixes and then switch to only mutas (keep making corruptors if he keeps making phoenixes). This shuts down the phoenixes so hard (as long as you keep your mutas and corruptors together) and if they try to take a third with us I've found that sometimes you can just kill them. Other than that, this is exactly what I do. Very well written.
Iksf
Profile Joined March 2011
United Kingdom444 Posts
January 19 2013 21:16 GMT
#5
iv had 96 i think, with some help from mass cancel. Won ages before that though.
Henk
Profile Joined March 2012
Netherlands578 Posts
January 19 2013 21:33 GMT
#6
Never transition, really? Once you are on 12 gas, pumping out infestors and BL should take very little time, right? I feel like no matter howmany mutas you have, if a few storms hit your muta ball you're done. Nonetheless, nice guide. I will def use this, especially on maps such as entombed, on which toss takes an early third.
Iksf
Profile Joined March 2011
United Kingdom444 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-01-19 21:48:44
January 19 2013 21:48 GMT
#7
On January 20 2013 06:33 Henk wrote:
Never transition, really? Once you are on 12 gas, pumping out infestors and BL should take very little time, right? I feel like no matter howmany mutas you have, if a few storms hit your muta ball you're done. Nonetheless, nice guide. I will def use this, especially on maps such as entombed, on which toss takes an early third.


I heavily disagree if im honest, I have tried that and its felt very bad. A good example would be the TLO vs MaNa games a few hours ago. TLO may have won but he already won before he transitioned and MaNa was able to almost take it even when down 80 supply. It leaves a massive timing window open for no good reason.
Kraelog
Profile Joined April 2010
Belgium194 Posts
January 19 2013 21:59 GMT
#8
Could you please provide some replays defending the 7gate Robo (AKA immo/sentry) with mutalisks? Aside from the biggest maps I feel you don't have enough time.
shlood
Profile Joined March 2011
United States12 Posts
January 19 2013 22:26 GMT
#9
On January 20 2013 06:48 Iksf wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 20 2013 06:33 Henk wrote:
Never transition, really? Once you are on 12 gas, pumping out infestors and BL should take very little time, right? I feel like no matter howmany mutas you have, if a few storms hit your muta ball you're done. Nonetheless, nice guide. I will def use this, especially on maps such as entombed, on which toss takes an early third.


I heavily disagree if im honest, I have tried that and its felt very bad. A good example would be the TLO vs MaNa games a few hours ago. TLO may have won but he already won before he transitioned and MaNa was able to almost take it even when down 80 supply. It leaves a massive timing window open for no good reason.


Not to mention that even if you somehow get you're whole muta clump stormed, you have so many bases that your bank is big enough to just remax on mutas. (I have made 40ish at once before)
syriuszonito
Profile Joined June 2011
Poland332 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-01-19 22:30:32
January 19 2013 22:28 GMT
#10
As someone who used this a lot I gotta say nice guide.
My two cents:
1. your recommendation not to make upgs - I cannot agree on this one. With this style you are gonna flood a lot of money that ofc you can burn into spines but I find it much more efficient to mass lings as well and use them agressively. You can hit in 2 different places then, set up traps for blink stalkers etc. That 200-300 gas when you are on 8+ gas income is nothing and gives you so much more options.
2. I really believe that at a certain skill lvl this build just stops to work. With a proper counter (parting does it in a game vs nestea - he only lost there coz he didnt scout hidden nesteas base) you just cant win. Thats why I gave up on this style, maybe transitoning to BL would be a better choice.
The one || My stream http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/syriuszonito
vali
Profile Joined May 2010
Netherlands59 Posts
January 19 2013 22:39 GMT
#11
I can assure you this is pretty valid and refined =D
Death by a tank
Iksf
Profile Joined March 2011
United Kingdom444 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-01-20 01:38:54
January 19 2013 22:39 GMT
#12
On January 20 2013 07:28 syriuszonito wrote:
As someone who used this a lot I gotta say nice guide.
My two cents:
1. your recommendation not to make upgs - I cannot agree on this one. With this style you are gonna flood a lot of money that ofc you can burn into spines but I find it much more efficient to mass lings as well and use them agressively. You can hit in 2 different places then, set up traps for blink stalkers etc. That 200-300 gas when you are on 8+ gas income is nothing and gives you so much more options.
2. I really believe that at a certain skill lvl this build just stops to work. With a proper counter (parting does it in a game vs nestea - he only lost there coz he didnt scout hidden nesteas base) you just cant win. Thats why I gave up on this style, maybe transitoning to BL would be a better choice.


Perhaps i was unclear, getting ups isnt wrong, but getting upgrades before mutas definitely is. You must delay upgrades for a good while. Any attempt to get upgrades before the first wave of mutas is imo a mistake, you havnt enough power behind your first push to get any contain going and you have a much harder time vs aggression and generally i think delaying them for a pretty long time is more effective, getting a high muta count asap is much more important than ling upgrades.

The parting vs nestea game was pretty unusual, primarily because it was actually a roach > muta game which is much less efficient. Also nesteas insistance on using banelings so much hurt him a lot in that game, he actually got himself pretty far behind with roach muta baneling attacks on partings 3rd before the baserace and had many inefficient trades as the baserace progressed. Banelings definitely have a place with this style but nestea really didnt show good use of them that game. He also capped out at (under 30 mutas i think?) not very high in any case. If nestea used all that gas for mutas not banelings i think he could have won it pretty easily.

Its actually a reasonably bad example of the style but its NesTea who is awesome and there arnt any good pro replays of this anymore. I mostly just wanted to convey the scale of the spine wall you have to build.
syriuszonito
Profile Joined June 2011
Poland332 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-01-19 23:00:40
January 19 2013 22:58 GMT
#13
On January 20 2013 07:39 Iksf wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 20 2013 07:28 syriuszonito wrote:
As someone who used this a lot I gotta say nice guide.
My two cents:
1. your recommendation not to make upgs - I cannot agree on this one. With this style you are gonna flood a lot of money that ofc you can burn into spines but I find it much more efficient to mass lings as well and use them agressively. You can hit in 2 different places then, set up traps for blink stalkers etc. That 200-300 gas when you are on 8+ gas income is nothing and gives you so much more options.
2. I really believe that at a certain skill lvl this build just stops to work. With a proper counter (parting does it in a game vs nestea - he only lost there coz he didnt scout hidden nesteas base) you just cant win. Thats why I gave up on this style, maybe transitoning to BL would be a better choice.


Perhaps i was unclear, getting ups isnt wrong, but getting upgrades before mutas is definitely. You must delay upgrades for a good while. Any attempt to get upgrades before the first wave of mutas is imo a mistake, you havnt enough power behind your first push to get any contain going and you have a much harder time vs aggression and generally i think delaying them for a pretty long time is more effective, getting a high muta count asap is much more important than ling upgrades.

The parting vs nestea game was pretty unusual, primarily because it was actually a roach > muta game which is much less efficient. Also nesteas insistance on using banelings so much hurt him a lot in that game, he actually got himself pretty far behind with roach muta baneling attacks on partings 3rd before the baserace and had many inefficient trades as the baserace progressed. Banelings definitely have a place with this style but nestea really didnt show good use of them that game. He also capped out at (under 30 mutas i think?) not very high in any case. If nestea used all that gas for mutas not banelings i think he could have won it pretty easily.

Its actually a reasonably bad example of the style but its NesTea who is awesome and there arnt any good pro replays of this anymore. I mostly just wanted to convey the scale of the spine wall you have to build.


Ok agree that it wasnt a typical game but the problem still stands - how are you going to deal with a toss that has a huge army with colossus to melt your spine wall and one of his bases full of cannons. You cant basetrade and you cant fight his army either
The one || My stream http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/syriuszonito
T.O.P. *
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Hong Kong4685 Posts
January 19 2013 23:01 GMT
#14
As a player very experienced with using mutalisks in zvp, I severely doubt that stopping 7 gate blink is easy with muta ling. Most of the 2 base all ins will also be incredibly hard to stop with your build.
Oracle comes in, Scvs go down, never a miscommunication.
pwnz0r
Profile Joined August 2010
United States123 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-01-19 23:08:01
January 19 2013 23:06 GMT
#15
On January 20 2013 08:01 T.O.P. wrote:
As a player very experienced with using mutalisks in zvp, I severely doubt that stopping 7 gate blink is easy with muta ling. Most of the 2 base all ins will also be incredibly hard to stop with your build.



I would agree. I do basically the exact style that the OP does, and it's given me a ridiculous win rate in ZvP (70%+) at Masters level. However, I generally use roach/ling to stop most 2 base all-ins, as muta/ling often leaves a very thin window where you can actually hold off the attack. The exception is the immortal-sentry all-in, in which muta/spine has worked in every situation that I've tried it in.
FloWithTheGo
Profile Joined March 2012
10 Posts
January 19 2013 23:15 GMT
#16
As a protoss player, this can be a very hard style to play against.

So best ways to beat this? In my experience it is scouting. You will have a much harder time scouting w/ a Robo macro opener than with a SG opener though. I usually open Stargate, scout with my first Phoenix. It's getting pretty rare that I can do quite a bit of damage when I wait for 4 phoenix nowadays. IMO building a spire somewhere crazy on the map is really gimmicky... but w/ phoenix to scout you should be able to get a read on what he is doing by extrapolating units you see, # of gas etc, not to mention scouting the map.

So once you've scouted Zerg's first tech path of choice for the midgame, you have a couple options on how to play it.. If you opened SG you can drop a 2nd, start teching towards ranged phoenix and then charge lots. This will beat pure muta/ling especially after you add on templar archives and get storm + archons.

If Z abandons mutas and goes for infestor, templar archives is still the natural progression. If he goes for roaches, chargelot/archon will trade very well. If he goes for Hydra, templar archives is a very good choice obviously.

If you don't want to drop a 2nd SG, then blink stalkers and templar archives with zealots as a mineral sink is very strong as well.

If you did open Robo/twilight, you should be getting blink quickly anyway. If you got a fast third, you are in good shape as you can begin to tech to templar pretty quickly.

I can't emphasize how good storm can be vs mutas. Much better to have a couple templar w/ storm who can merge into archon AFTER casting the storms than to just merge the templar per-emptivly
hooahah
Profile Joined October 2011
3752 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-01-19 23:33:12
January 19 2013 23:32 GMT
#17
nuuu I hate playing against Mutas ;_; no offense but I hope no one uses this against me ♥
llIH
Profile Joined June 2011
Norway2143 Posts
January 20 2013 00:17 GMT
#18
Mutalisk is the reason I am thinking of changing to zerg.
I think mutalisk play is super strong. But important to use them for map control and harassment constantly. They require micro/macro to be useful.
Iksf
Profile Joined March 2011
United Kingdom444 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-01-20 01:45:11
January 20 2013 00:23 GMT
#19
On January 20 2013 08:01 T.O.P. wrote:
As a player very experienced with using mutalisks in zvp, I severely doubt that stopping 7 gate blink is easy with muta ling. Most of the 2 base all ins will also be incredibly hard to stop with your build.


If theres a 4 gate pressure before it you will have already begun roaches, you just do a totally normal hold for 7g blink with no referance to this guide.

Honestly 7g blink with no 4 gate pressure is the most pathetic build i encounter, even though youv not the best unit comp for the hold its still really easy hence why people always go 4 gate pressure into it. The only map where iv seen people use it reasonably regularly recently is shakuras due to the annoying channels and high grounds. But Shakuras is gone so i barely even consider it anymore.


As for playing against it I really find a decently executed quick 3rd or stargate expansion to be protoss' most solid bet. Im a huge fan of stargate in PvZ for lots of reasons, this is definitely one of them. If were talking 2 base all ins, obviously a vanilla gate attack will be identical to a normal game. The main all in which is notably better vs this than standard roach play is 7 gate warp prism.

Proxying the spire is a gimmick sure im not saying its not, nor am I saying that playing vs stargate with muta relies on hiding your spire. Im just saying this is a method you can use to tip the game in your favour if you dont mind a bit of dice rolling.

Ok I agree that it wasnt a typical game but the problem still stands - how are you going to deal with a toss that has a huge army with colossus to melt your spine wall and one of his bases full of cannons. You cant basetrade and you cant fight his army either


Cannons and stalkers evaporate vs high muta counts instantly. Its literally Muta vs storm, everything else is next to irrelevant, we are talking about a ball of mutas that can literally 3 shot an entire nexus. In that NesTea game he burnt so much money in bad engagements that he didnt have a critical mass of mutalisks, thus parting was able to secure a 3rd with a huge amount of cannons and high templar. If he didnt waste all that money, busting the third would have been reasonably simple and that would have granted him the win pretty easily.

If your in the situation where a protoss has an untouchable army pushing you and enough cannons, templar etc to survive the base trade, you lost quite a while ago.
Keilkan
Profile Joined July 2012
Denmark67 Posts
January 20 2013 08:46 GMT
#20
On January 20 2013 06:13 shlood wrote:
People think they have to transition and it always screws them over. The only thing I do different is against 1 stargate I generally mix in ~4 corruptors to counter phoenixes and then switch to only mutas (keep making corruptors if he keeps making phoenixes). This shuts down the phoenixes so hard (as long as you keep your mutas and corruptors together)


I want to pull this here out and discuss a bit, since I almost only play Mutalisks in ZvP and nothing else.

Lets address the transitioning bit first. If you've been smart, you've already got upgrades on your melee. Your opponent will want to counter you with heavy anti-air, such as Archon/Storm/Stalker stuff. If you intuitively add a group of Infestor/Ultralisk in the later stages of the game. My army generally ends up looking like this: 40+ Mutalisks, 6 or so Ultras, 6 or so infestors and 20ish banelings.
There is another transition available, which you can go for if you change your pace early. Say you're playing against someone who's turtling up on two bases. In those scenarios, I'll halt Mutalisk production, produce a ton of lings, and transition towards the regular Broodlord/Infestor deathball. Transition is possible, but you've got to be smart about it. Else you risk losing a lot of games where you were miles ahead.

The second bit is the Corruptor Dynamic. If you add the corruptors to a different hotkey, and always keep them between the Mutalisks and the Phoenix, there's absolutely nothing he can do. Versus double stargate, spire play is absolutely reasonable, don't come and act as if its a hardcounter! Simply going Corruptor/Ling roflstomps someone investing heavily into air.
Blast 'em!
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