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MaximusT
United States126 Posts
By the time they switched to thors I was able to dart in, kill the thor as it spawned and run out. There's obviously a number of factors of bad play going on in my example but in general would it work? So basically what I'm asking is, does this work at your level for other matchups? | ||
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terriBean
Canada75 Posts
On January 21 2013 13:22 MaximusT wrote: i'm only high gold, so I suck and the people I play suck too, but does this work in other matchups? Like ZvT for example. I was laddering tonight and I did something similar (not nearly as refined obviously) but i rolled 3 terrans with a group of 35-40 mutas each time. 1-1 or 2-0 upgrades and I harassed them into quitting. I was going ling/bane/muta originally so I had some other defenses, but once i hit that big number of mutas I rolled. By the time they switched to thors I was able to dart in, kill the thor as it spawned and run out. There's obviously a number of factors of bad play going on in my example but in general would it work? So basically what I'm asking is, does this work at your level for other matchups? Ling/Bling/Muta is a legitimate mid-game composition vs T, however mass muta isn't very viable, thors, raven seeker missle, and marine/medivac all counter pure muta play. In ZvZ, if you're going Muta and discover that your opponent is as well, you should usually go into pure muta with upgrades. Otherwise I wouldn't, because a chain fungal on a large ball of mutas means GG | ||
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Mahtasooma
Germany475 Posts
http://drop.sc/296943 is a Stargate play and this replay http://drop.sc/296939 the Toss moves out at 9:45 with 4 sentries and has his wall open to a massive ling runby. | ||
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Iksf
United Kingdom444 Posts
On January 21 2013 17:56 Mahtasooma wrote: This replay of yours: http://drop.sc/296943 is a Stargate play and this replay http://drop.sc/296939 the Toss moves out at 9:45 with 4 sentries and has his wall open to a massive ling runby. Fixed, as i said these are the best replays i can offer atm, they arnt even mine, i literally formatted my computer about 4 days ago i have like 5 ZvP replays max, none of which are really worth posting. But I have held off much better executed 7g robos with no problem. Honestly I dont even really find the earlier ones much harder to defend than the late ones. On January 21 2013 14:31 terriBean wrote: Ling/Bling/Muta is a legitimate mid-game composition vs T, however mass muta isn't very viable, thors, raven seeker missle, and marine/medivac all counter pure muta play. In ZvZ, if you're going Muta and discover that your opponent is as well, you should usually go into pure muta with upgrades. Otherwise I wouldn't, because a chain fungal on a large ball of mutas means GG Yea this is completely correct mass muta is unviable in the other matchups, other than muta vs muta. On January 21 2013 08:49 HaVoK12 wrote: Great guide, thanks!! Do you suggest to either get a blind roach warren or a blind evo for lower league players (high plat here)? At my level about 95% of my games are some sort of 2 base allin (imm sentry, dts or 2x stargate). Perhaps, I just think you need to make sure your not using blind roach and evo as an excuse to skip on scouting. On January 21 2013 12:31 InfCereal wrote: Finally played a nice long game. Had 80 mutas at the end. It's incredibly hard to maintain your drone count while doing this. Ended up mining off of 12 gasses, and only 2 base mineral. The first mutalisk pump gets strong map control, once your sure no 2.5 base all in coming you can go up to a pretty high drone count. This lets you build the mineral bank you need to carry you through the game. | ||
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Daitro
England31 Posts
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Moonrisesc
Netherlands38 Posts
On January 21 2013 18:54 Daitro wrote: I have no idea how can you write off 7 gate blink as easy to hold with MutaLing.. you're EU so maybe we can try it out? A regular 7g blink hits too late, your 65 drone economy has already pretty much kicked in and you can easily overrun it nomatter what unit composition you have if you macroed correctly in the early game. As for +1 4g into 7g blink, you have a roach warren out so you can just defend it with roach ling + burrow reasonably easily. 7g blink is definatly not a big threat to this style at all if you droned up properly. | ||
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eXeSnight
United Kingdom6 Posts
On January 21 2013 18:54 Daitro wrote: I have no idea how can you write off 7 gate blink as easy to hold with MutaLing.. you're EU so maybe we can try it out? Because 7 gate blink is bad now. | ||
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InfCereal
Canada1759 Posts
On January 21 2013 18:17 Iksf wrote: The first mutalisk pump gets strong map control, once your sure no 2.5 base all in coming you can go up to a pretty high drone count. This lets you build the mineral bank you need to carry you through the game. Around when I should I start building the spine forest? | ||
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Iksf
United Kingdom444 Posts
On January 21 2013 22:54 InfCereal wrote: Around when I should I start building the spine forest? Youv got a good bit of time for building the spine forest. If protoss doesnt push by like 11 mins they cant push for a good while vs mutalisks, youv got a good 3-5 mins of doing whatever you want before protoss becomes scary again, provided you dont lose too many mutas. The reasoning behind this is pretty simple. Stalkers suck vs mutaling once there are a good amount of mutas out. Templar and archons are the only things he can make that are dangerous. 3 base protoss burning lots of money of stalkers to not die as well as tech is pretty low on gas so they cant get many templar or archons up. If they tech to these units too greedily you can just boss in and wreck a base pretty hard even if you eat a couple of archon shots. Likewise if they try and push without sufficient units in their base they will be forced to retreat by the counter attack before they get half way across the map. So once theyv commited to AA splash they have to be pretty passive until theyr stable on 3 bases. If they push before this you will win a baserace with ridiculous ease. Likewise if they somehow think they can survive on pure mass stalker, you must build less drones and more lings, but its fine because the low investment in templar tech will hurt him a lot a bit later. If you contain them properly protoss has very little they can do to you that isnt hugely all in. The really dangerous one is DT but proper preparation nullifies that fine. | ||
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bankobauss
204 Posts
zerglings with zero collossi in play are massively stronger i think the reason zergs lose direct engagements with this playstyle is because if they ever engage they send in mutas and lings at the same time heck, if you scout collossi you can even throw 4-5 corrupters into the muta ball to massively increase the speed at which collossi die then rush to hive ASAP, get 1-2 ultralisks and now the only toss counter to lings left (forcefields) gets stomped | ||
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Iksf
United Kingdom444 Posts
On January 22 2013 04:38 bankobauss wrote: theoretically if a zerg can spend all of his gas into mutas he can snipe the collossi down, which causes him to lose some mutas, but then the zerglings run in after zerglings with zero collossi in play are massively stronger i think the reason zergs lose direct engagements with this playstyle is because if they ever engage they send in mutas and lings at the same time heck, if you scout collossi you can even throw 4-5 corrupters into the muta ball to massively increase the speed at which collossi die then rush to hive ASAP, get 1-2 ultralisks and now the only toss counter to lings left (forcefields) gets stomped Good protoss wont use colossus vs mutaling. They will use archons and storm for splash. | ||
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shoooryuken
France14 Posts
very strong, but, against delayed 7g+robo when protoss gone on +1+1. but if the protoss gone on 3immortal +7/8 sentry out on 9... it's more difficult. But (againt  ) in this case, i'm go on nydus et spine on main base like http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=390763 | ||
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InfCereal
Canada1759 Posts
Just played one. Not sure how high level it is, as I'm on tilt, but masters none the less. I engaged outside of the spine crawlers because I got antsy. http://ggtracker.com/matches/1236750 | ||
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matt93
Australia32 Posts
The only time I lost with this build was against someone who went for a wonky late twilight into DT (approx 10 minutes DT hit, scouted the twilight researching and thought blink) and then pushed with archons and zealot charge and I lost the base trade. It'd be interesting to see if the pros adopt this playstyle, it's definitely more fluid and fun than roach ling or infestor broodlord and it'd be nice to see it evolve the metagame up in pro-territory. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20321 Posts
On January 22 2013 10:55 InfCereal wrote: I think someone asked for a replay defending the immortal sentry all in. Just played one. Not sure how high level it is, as I'm on tilt, but masters none the less. I engaged outside of the spine crawlers because I got antsy. http://ggtracker.com/matches/1236750 Im sorry to say you would have lost this particular game if the toss executed better. His early game timings, macro and a lot of small details were wrong or bad (he's not trained for this like PartinG, it happens), he moved out 20 sec late with 5 sentries instead of 8, not having mined from the fourth gas and only having 100 gas in bank, his gateway timings were weird and then he hit a supply block for a minute or so at the worst possible time. He also wasted too many forcefields and hung around a lot when he shouldnt have - Your spines were too late to be up, he could have killed one if not two of your bases before the muta pop. It's questionable if you would outright die, but in this game in particular the protoss did not play anywhere near optimally, and i dont believe you could have survived if he did with the way you were playing. To expand on details a little, it took him 11:00 to reach your thirds creep. He could have done it in 10:00 with the amount of threat you was able to apply with your lings - regardless, he was able to kill the hatch. I know you are fine with sacking it, but if he hadnt had his warp prism horribly out of position he could have forced you to disengage with your mutalisks or killed all of them with the stalker warp in - Perhaps if he hadnt been supply blocked for over a minute, he wouldnt even need this warp in. You took a lead in the game here, but only because his early game was bad, he didnt have as much >stuff< as he was supposed to have, he didnt hit as >fast< as he was supposed to have done and he hit several supply blocks, one really badly. The direct consequence of this is him not being able to do nearly as much damage as he could have done. It is also him losing all of his sentries, the three immortals, the warp prism and quite a few zealots, which put you ahead when you shouldnt have been. Not only was he not aggressively setting up proxy pylons to use as a primary source of warping in units (with the prism as a backup, used as a micro, flexibility and security tool) he phased the prism between his army and your natural, was forced to back himself to a wall leaving it completely exposed. This is a massive massive no. I dont mean to arrogantly state something along the lines of "muta ling is not viable blablabla", but execution as you showed it here will not live. I hope this was informative some | ||
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Qwyn
United States2779 Posts
I dunno 3 gas @6:15 probably will net you a higher supply count by around 4-5 drones, but 1 gas @5:00 will get you a spire done a bit before 10 minutes (9:45!). Since I use the 1 gas @5:00 as my standard right now I'm not in a position to speak with authority about 3 gas @6:15 until I work out all the kinks for that version mechanically...Right now I'm still mechanically stuck on 5:00 gas so I make little mistakes here and there... I mean I'm still getting above 70 at 8 minutes but only when it's muscle memory will I see how much of an advantage each timing nets. | ||
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Moonrisesc
Netherlands38 Posts
On January 22 2013 14:04 Qwyn wrote: Hmm, I'm stuck between doing 1 gas @ 5:00 or 3 gas @6:15... I dunno 3 gas @6:15 probably will net you a higher supply count by around 4-5 drones, but 1 gas @5:00 will get you a spire done a bit before 10 minutes (9:45!). Since I use the 1 gas @5:00 as my standard right now I'm not in a position to speak with authority about 3 gas @6:15 until I work out all the kinks for that version mechanically...Right now I'm still mechanically stuck on 5:00 gas so I make little mistakes here and there... I mean I'm still getting above 70 at 8 minutes but only when it's muscle memory will I see how much of an advantage each timing nets. Either one works fine, its totaly personal preference. I use the 5:00 gas myself because it allows for much easier early pressure defense etc and you're still able to have a good number of drones when you need them. I know iksf uses 3x at 6:15 atm tough. | ||
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SweKenZo
Sweden82 Posts
On January 22 2013 17:16 Moonrisesc wrote: Either one works fine, its totaly personal preference. I use the 5:00 gas myself because it allows for much easier early pressure defense etc and you're still able to have a good number of drones when you need them. I know iksf uses 3x at 6:15 atm tough. First 100 gas for lair if gas is taken at Protoss Natural? or always speed first? How do you follow that up? 2nd gas when lair starts? 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th when? Do you know any cheese that opens in the same way as the 3 base, gas @ 5 min does? | ||
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Targe
United Kingdom14103 Posts
On January 20 2013 09:17 KAB00000000M wrote: Mutalisk is the reason I am thinking of changing to zerg. I think mutalisk play is super strong. But important to use them for map control and harassment constantly. They require micro/macro to be useful. That's horribly generic :D Almost every build requires micro/macro to be useful! | ||
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Moonrisesc
Netherlands38 Posts
On January 22 2013 19:08 SweKenZo wrote: First 100 gas for lair if gas is taken at Protoss Natural? or always speed first? How do you follow that up? 2nd gas when lair starts? 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th when? Do you know any cheese that opens in the same way as the 3 base, gas @ 5 min does? I get lair first if I can be sure protoss isn't doing a +1 4g, either if I see a tech building, sentries, or an unchronoed core. If I dont see any of those ill get speed first. There are very few cheeses Z can do off 3 hatches that arent extremely meta, and they usualy take gas a lot earlier. | ||
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