EPTI know muta styles can be extremely strong against more delayed pressure (or such all in's executed by people who are not on PartinG's level, or having practiced them dozens of times being aware of benchmarks), but the strongest immortal all in's will play very zealot heavy (see PartinG) in order to make the initial engages as safely and quickly as possible, and also abuse the warp prism to avoid losing any immortals ever, and safe the lives of most sentries etc in any engage before reaching the zerg base. If you can provide reps of beating such play they would be an amazing asset to zerg and protoss players alike, but i have reasonable expectations i think of straight ling into muta working great vs an average protoss player, while falling apart once all of the timings come down tightly and mistakes are ironed out
[G] Mass Mutalisk ZvP for 2013 - Page 2
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Cyro
United Kingdom20306 Posts
I know muta styles can be extremely strong against more delayed pressure (or such all in's executed by people who are not on PartinG's level, or having practiced them dozens of times being aware of benchmarks), but the strongest immortal all in's will play very zealot heavy (see PartinG) in order to make the initial engages as safely and quickly as possible, and also abuse the warp prism to avoid losing any immortals ever, and safe the lives of most sentries etc in any engage before reaching the zerg base. If you can provide reps of beating such play they would be an amazing asset to zerg and protoss players alike, but i have reasonable expectations i think of straight ling into muta working great vs an average protoss player, while falling apart once all of the timings come down tightly and mistakes are ironed out | ||
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Natalya
Belgium287 Posts
On January 20 2013 05:52 Iksf wrote: I was surprised at how unsuccessful most of these mutalisk attempts were or I disagreed with how the zerg executed it so I decided to write this. So you are basically saying you're better than the pros. My guess is that they are facing problems you did not discover yet with your build because of your lower level of play. Saying you know better than the pros can never be right in my opinion. | ||
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Iksf
United Kingdom444 Posts
On January 20 2013 17:46 Keilkan wrote: I want to pull this here out and discuss a bit, since I almost only play Mutalisks in ZvP and nothing else. Lets address the transitioning bit first. If you've been smart, you've already got upgrades on your melee. Your opponent will want to counter you with heavy anti-air, such as Archon/Storm/Stalker stuff. If you intuitively add a group of Infestor/Ultralisk in the later stages of the game. My army generally ends up looking like this: 40+ Mutalisks, 6 or so Ultras, 6 or so infestors and 20ish banelings. There is another transition available, which you can go for if you change your pace early. Say you're playing against someone who's turtling up on two bases. In those scenarios, I'll halt Mutalisk production, produce a ton of lings, and transition towards the regular Broodlord/Infestor deathball. Transition is possible, but you've got to be smart about it. Else you risk losing a lot of games where you were miles ahead. The second bit is the Corruptor Dynamic. If you add the corruptors to a different hotkey, and always keep them between the Mutalisks and the Phoenix, there's absolutely nothing he can do. Versus double stargate, spire play is absolutely reasonable, don't come and act as if its a hardcounter! Simply going Corruptor/Ling roflstomps someone investing heavily into air. You cant afford to get upgrades on your melee early or you dont keep the control you need on the protoss thus you dont have upgrades thus transitioning is really hard and definitely inferior. Corruptors vs single stargate I really dont agree with, if you control your mutas properly you dont need them. 2x stargate is an all in not really a macro build, the problem is that protoss is going to chrono out a good 3-5 rays and kill your third. Your spire is normally not in time for that, hydra is definitely the safe bet vs this, its ridiculously all in anyway so survival = victory. On January 20 2013 05:52 Iksf wrote: I was surprised at how unsuccessful most of these mutalisk attempts were or I disagreed with how the zerg executed it so I decided to write this. So you are basically saying you're better than the pros. My guess is that they are facing problems you did not discover yet with your build because of your lower level of play. Saying you know better than the pros can never be right in my opinion. I don't think this is the cause, i think it is more that people have been doing fine with infestor broodlord for the past year, most peoples mutalisk experience in ZvP is a good year out of date. | ||
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Iksf
United Kingdom444 Posts
On January 20 2013 18:23 Cyro wrote: Could you post some replays vs immortal all in (and PM me) if you have any where the toss plays well? Im curious to see games where toss hits good timings (~8 sentry 3 immortal at ~8:50, hitting zerg by ~9:50, delayed 15-60 sec perhaps by aggressive engages mid map) I know muta styles can be extremely strong against more delayed pressure (or such all in's executed by people who are not on PartinG's level, or having practiced them dozens of times being aware of benchmarks), but the strongest immortal all in's will play very zealot heavy (see PartinG) in order to make the initial engages as safely and quickly as possible, and also abuse the warp prism to avoid losing any immortals ever, and safe the lives of most sentries etc in any engage before reaching the zerg base. If you can provide reps of beating such play they would be an amazing asset to zerg and protoss players alike, but i have reasonable expectations i think of straight ling into muta working great vs an average protoss player, while falling apart once all of the timings come down tightly and mistakes are ironed out As i mentioned in the OP I have only a couple of days ladder of replays on my computer having recently formatted and losing a good 8k replays like a moron. But lets talk this through. The lair starts before 7 for zerg and takes 80 seconds, the spire starts before 8:20 and takes 100 seconds and mutalisks take 33 seconds thus its utterly reasonable to have 15 mutalisks out by 10:30 The sentry immortal push leaves at around 9 with good execution. This also includes near 0 harassment allowing only 2 lings to be built from zerg. So zerg should have been on 3 base saturation before 8 minutes pretty easily, a good bit before. This means that between about 7:50 to about 9:40 the zerg should only be making lings off 3 hatcheries. That is actually quite a lot of zerglings if you think about it, easily over 60, closer to 100. The first push out is just basically exclusively immortals and sentries, zealots will be added when the protoss realizes he needs a good 8 or so too push across the map so there is a delay while he adds those. Then as he moves across the map he repeatedly must engage a huge wall of speedlings doing anything they can to burn forcefields, more , on the protoss side of the map there is a serious risk to the protoss of their push actually just dying to this speedling pump so they actually have to burn quite a lot of forcefields. Eventually ofc the immortal sentry ball becomes to ridiculous to engage and lings do nothing anymore, at this point the zerglings move around to counter at the protoss base. If the protoss is good there should be a full wall and at least 2 cannons and he will probably warp in a sentry or 2. By this point you should have mutas out and spines up. If he goes for the third you win easily, just sacrifice the hatch and abandon third with drones. If he goes for the natural it can be a bit harder but still normally fine. | ||
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Moonrisesc
Netherlands38 Posts
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schwza
67 Posts
Stacking mutalisks with an overlord helps massively for sniping pylons etc., Can you explain this? Also, when toss pushes out on 3 bases, do you usually fight or base trade? | ||
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Iksf
United Kingdom444 Posts
On January 20 2013 23:21 schwza wrote: Can you explain this? Also, when toss pushes out on 3 bases, do you usually fight or base trade? If you add an overlord into the control group of your mutalisks they stack better, obviously annoying having an overlord follow them around but totally worth it imo. Depends how large and early the push is, some protoss do some weird like 2.5 base immortal pushes which you can just roll very hard. For normal 3 base timing sized pushes, baserace almost always | ||
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abefroman
70 Posts
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Iksf
United Kingdom444 Posts
On January 20 2013 23:51 abefroman wrote: I may have missed it...but do you always get a roach warren with this build for defense. Or just if you scout gates going down? Personally just if i scout gates but im kind of torn on it, because it makes 7g prism much easier to hold. | ||
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Lobotomist
United States1541 Posts
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llIH
Norway2143 Posts
On January 20 2013 23:15 Moonrisesc wrote: I've been using this style for a good couple of months now. At 1.4k masters I have a near 100% winrate with it against any non stargate style coming from the toss. That is pretty damn good. | ||
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shlood
United States12 Posts
On January 20 2013 22:34 Iksf wrote: Corruptors vs single stargate I really dont agree with, if you control your mutas properly you dont need them. This is true, but I find just adding a few in just makes it so much easier and does not really cost you much. | ||
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InfCereal
Canada1759 Posts
I've been going to +2 attack, then starting carapace. | ||
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Iksf
United Kingdom444 Posts
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Iksf
United Kingdom444 Posts
On January 21 2013 04:47 Lobotomist wrote: awesome! definitely upload some more replays, a immortal timing one would be good The only immortal timing one i have was a weird game. Was a GM tos and I won pretty easily but it was 4g pressure into it and i screwed a lot of stuff up. I will add reps of any good games myself or moonrise play from now on. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20306 Posts
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HaVoK12
United States9 Posts
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EatThePath
United States3943 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + but seriously that's a great op.  but seriously I hate playing against mutas. | ||
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InfCereal
Canada1759 Posts
It's incredibly hard to maintain your drone count while doing this. Ended up mining off of 12 gasses, and only 2 base mineral. | ||
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MysteryMeat1
United States3292 Posts
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