[G] Andromeda's ZvP

Andromedan

64 Posts

December 30 2012 05:54 GMT

Andromeda's Zerg vs Protoss

Hello TL! I am AndromedaOD from Clan OverDosed, ~900 pt Masters Zerg. Today I am excited to present my take on a much different way to play the ZvP matchup. As roach aggression and turtley ling-infestor midgames bore me, I have used TLO's innovations in the matchup to come up with a much more aggressive (and in my opinion, more fun) midgame – muta ling!

Note that TLO's ZvP is the main inspiration behind this style. These ideas are his, or at least the ones he executed in Dreamhack Winter. He utilizes multiple elements of this style across separate games, maps, and openings. But because I'm not as awesome as TLO (I have way less openers and styles), I have compiled all these concepts into one style. Enjoy!

Concept
+ Show Spoiler +

Ideally, an early ling speed grants us early map control. With a couple of scouting conditions and starting ling production at around 8:00, we can keep ourselves safe from early aggression. As we transition into mutalisks, we can take more bases while being ultra-aggressive on his side of the map. Meanwhile, we use this opportunity to reach hive tech where we then use ultralisks as a tier 2.5 unit as yet another stepping stone to safely and finally reach broods.

Why to Play This Style
+ Show Spoiler +

-Mechanics: As this style is very ling-heavy and will require a maximum drone count at around 8:00, things like injecting and not getting supply blocked become very important.
-Multi-tasking: Injects lend you a 40 second window to do whatever you'd like. Between controlling mutas, attacking with (multiple) ling-runbys, making units/drones, expanding, teching, AND injecting, becoming comfortable with this style will definitely give you strong multi-tasking skills. It also lets you shine against protosses with poor multi-task.
-Nature of ZvP: I find ZvP very timing-oriented. Between the roach-max, pre-hive timings, rushing broods, hiding behind spine walls, and dealing with the very frustrating lategame (did he land the vortex or not???), this would ordinarily be a matchup I cannot stand. Mutas, however, eliminate that timer. The midgame can stretch out much longer than usual, and when you're harassing and toss is losing probes/expansions, their previous plans for the lategame no longer become relevant.
-Aggression: Being the aggressor is something I don't think most zergs are used to, at least outside ZvZ. Current styles always have zergs massing infestors and turtling until hive (or employing roach ling aggression, which I believe can easily be stopped by a competent protoss). Aggression, at least from the sky, (provided you can macro behind it) lets you set the pace of the game and control the map.

Build Skeleton (Alt-Tab Reference :3)
+ Show Spoiler +

Gasless 3 Hatch Opener (3 hatches by 5:00, no gas, pool)
@pool 100%, x2 queens (one for each base)
@pool 100%, x1 lings (as few as possible)
5:00 Gas (if you went hatch first double queen will pop at this time)
@3rd hatch 100%, x2 queens (4 queens total, make 1 @ third, 1 @ natural)
@100 gas, ling speed (6:30, don't remove drones)
@next 100 gas, lair (7:30)
7:30 macro hatch (in main or natural, I prefer the main)
7:30 sac ovie into protoss main (replace)
8:00 x3 gas (4 gas total)
8:00 x2 evo chambers (@100%, start 1/1)
STOP drone production. START pure ling production. At around ~20-30 lings we can stop and resume droning, unless scouting would indicate aggression.
At this 8:00 mark, several different things can happen, leading us into the early parts of the midgame.

Midgame
+ Show Spoiler +

From our ovie scout of the toss's gas at 6:30, the ovie sac @ 7:30, and our lings which can poke the toss around ~8:00-8:30, we can make a determination as to what he is doing. @8:00, 1 of 3 scenarios are true. The toss is doing a:
1. +1 4gate
2. 2 base all-in
3. Fast 3rd base

1. +1 4gate
+ Show Spoiler +

A +1 4gate will start warping in on your side of the map at around 8:00. Oh so conveniently, we start pure ling production at 8:00, the same time that our ling speed will finish. If toss is even a little bit late, and you're producing appropriately, you can outright kill the forward probe/pylon and then clean up the remaining forces. The moment the 4gate is scouted, throw down a roach warren (if toss warps in nothing but zealots our pure ling will not do well). Roach/ling will hold the attack (don't go crazy on the roaches, <10-12). Toss will usually try to use the mayhem to secure a third/tech, our speedlings will be able to deny that.
Behind this, we can get a fourth once we verify that toss isn't turtling 2 base, get our 5th and 6th gases, and go for our spire. If the toss is still on two bases, an overseer can check what's going on, but if he still has not taken a third by around 9:30/there are units massing in the natural, it's a 2 base all-in (mass roach/ling).

2. 2 base all-in
+ Show Spoiler +

Our overlord scout/ling pokes would have indicated that it's a 2 base all in (+6gates, chrono'd robo, immortals/sentries at the front, no third). From here, we immediately start our roach warren, start a nydus ASAP, and start massing spine crawlers in the front of our main's ramp (all these buildings are in the main). Roach/ling production is on steroids (nothing but roach/ling!). From here, morph 3 overseerers (1 nydus position in the main, 1 for the natural, 1 worst case scenario outside the natural). When your forward ling has indicated that the time has come, all the roach ling goes into the nydus. Pull all drones/queens from your third/natural and into the main. The nydus will ideally hit the main first. As the roach/ling unloads, your primary goal is to wreck production/kill the main nexus. Toss is really stuck because he can walk up your main ramp into a wall of spines, and then you can reload into the nydus and help defend the spine wall with roach/ling. If he sits around/comes back, you have enough time to wreck the production and kill probes/nexus. Retreat into the nydus, and re-expand ASAP. You can re-spread creep to get the spine wall to the natural. The nydus will prevent the toss from containing you, and will help you contain the toss. Between the speedlings and the insane mobility that the nydus provides, we can always threaten counter attack. This buys us time to re-expand to our third and tech mutas while keeping the toss on 1-1½ bases.
Definitely refer to the replays.

3. Fast third
+ Show Spoiler +

Yay! It's a fast third. We know this because the gateway count is not insane, and there's (usually) a twilight council building. Fast thirds will be taken somewhere around 9-9:30 (potentially later depending on the skill of the toss). Our speedlings will be able to deny/delay the expansion for a little while, but not indefinitely. Be cute and do whatever damage you can without sacrificing the lings. From here, take the gases at the 3rd (6 gas total), grab a 4th and take those gases (8 gas total), start your spire, and fully saturate your 3rd base. From here you can go into pure muta ling production off of 8 gases and 5 hatcheries.

Regardless of how the midgame starts @ 8:00, 1 of 2 scenarios will be true in the end:
1. Protoss is being aggressive, we are holding with roach/ling (potentially nydus), staying on 4 gases.
2. Protoss is not being aggressive, it is safe to expand and to go muta, we're taking all the bases and gases we can.

Opener Walkthrough:
+ Show Spoiler +

We start with basic pool-first, opening standard. Nothing special.
Our benchmark @5:00 is 3 hatch, gasless, with a pool. Pool-first/hatch-first is irrelevant, but if you do hatch-first (TLO likes to) leave your 2nd overlord over the natural and patrol your drone at the bottom of the ramp. Also never lose sight of his probe.

We take our first gas at around 5:00. If we start one gas at any given point in time, the geyser will finish approximately 30 seconds later. Speed takes roughly a minute and a half, which means taking one gas will give us speed 3 minutes later (aka the oh so important time of 8:00). Also note via the minimap that I've take his forward tower and have a ling at the third. Overlord watches over the natural gas.

Scout! One ling on the forward tower and another at his third.

Our benchmark at 7:30, macro hatchery started with lair.

At 8:00, we start a large amount of lings with x3 more gas and x2 evos

And that's it! That's how we open ZvP until 8:00. You obviously want to saturate gases and replace drones. Start 1/1 melee/carapace once evos pop. If the toss is being aggressive, we want to throw down a roach warren ASAP. We can confirm this as early as 6:30 via ovies scouting the gas, or at 7:30 with the ovie sac into the main.

+1 4gate Walkthrough:
+ Show Spoiler +

4gate incoming!! Our lings started at 8:00 will be able to help hold this.

Hold the 4gate with relative ease:

Additional speedlings maintain map control, delay/pressure the 3rd, and contain the toss. This buys time for our spire/upgrades/expanding.

Let's take a 4th while toss is getting a 3rd...going for mutas as well.

Mutas are out, let the harassment begin!

He eventually sustains too much damage...it's time to base race!

Mobility and superior numbers will win the base race...gg!

2 Base All-in Walkthrough – Immortal Sentry
+ Show Spoiler +

Step 1 is scouting it...that's a lot of gates there sir!

The ling pokes at the front confirm our fears...2 base all-in for sure.

Go for the roach warren/nydus/spines in the main immediately...keep producing roach ling off 4 hatches.

More spines will keep us safe while we nydus in...

We wreck production/the main, retreating into the nydus once he comes back...otherwise we reload into the nydus to help defend the spine wall.

Once the madness has come to a calm, we re-expand and start our spire. Grab a 3rd if possible.

Mutalisks win the game due to our superior production and economy – he can't keep up. gg!

Fast Third Walkthrough
+ Show Spoiler +

Ovie sac indicates a robo that hasn't even finished, low gate count, sentries...looks like a fast third.

Speedlings delay the third while we secure our spire and 4th.

Once mutas are out we start multi-pronged harass, and combine mutas and lings to break the front.

The harass continues while we transition and eventually break him.

Reacting to Protoss Tech
+ Show Spoiler +

Robo:
+ Show Spoiler +

By far the most common midgame tech for toss to go. Naturally accompanies fast third play with sentries, and of course the immortal sentry all in. Besides the 2 base all-in itself, we don't really need to worry about robo – it can't shoot up. Immortals don't matter and our map presence and mobility deny warp prisms. Collosus can become a problem for lings in larger numbers, don't let him get there. Observers are only really notable in base trade scenarios where map awareness about the enemy army is important. Just keep detection with mutas to circumvent this.

Twilight:
+ Show Spoiler +

There are a couple things toss can do with this. DTs after an FFE will hit before mutas but after lair/evos. To prevent this (and stargate play) a spore in the front of the natural and in the third, or morph detection. Speedlings deal with the rest. Blink will be researched, eventually, and is inevitable. As long as you engage properly and don't take fights you can't win, it shouldn't be a problem because the only time you are engaging is when you are in superior numbers (hence blink won't matter anyways). Storm is by far the largest threat to your army. Pre-splitting before diving into his bases and good muta control/awareness will help you dodge storms. DO NOT BITE STORMS AND NEVER CLUMP NEAR TEMPLAR. That's the largest concern. Composition wise, chargelot archon can do reasonably well, but lacks the mobility of stalkers. Multi-pronging will work well against it. Magic boxing archons works fine and lings counter attack to avoid losses zealots. As long as you engage before toss has a critical mass of archons (less than 4) the amount of mutas you should have is fine. Any kind of larger templar force (multiple archons + lots of blink stalkers + multiple storm for example) can't be engaged head on with mutas and you should instead opt for a base trade.

Stargate:
+ Show Spoiler +

Ew. By far the most fickle tech to deal with. Stargate is very interesting in that it is either used for a fast third behind the VR/phoenix pressure or it is used before a 2 base all-in. Fortunately, lings can still be very active on the map – stargate can't kill them fast enough and lacks a strong ground army (initially) to defend. Strong ling counter attacks can kill tosses who cut corners, and at the very least the scouting tells you if he's interested in the 3rd or the all-in. If it is the all-in, it is very likely that he will not make excessive stargate units in favor of more ground units (usually a double robo collosus is the all-in follow-up). Although counter-intuitive, making and hiding a LOT of mutas (+14, adding corruptors if you must) will be able to overpower the phoenix force and kill the rest of the all-in (tosses will rely on the phoenixes for air superiority, the rest will mostly be unable to shoot up). Against a fast 3rd transition, you can either opt for the muta play or you can go into ling infestor (you have double evos with a 1/1 on the way). Either works due to the toss's passivity.

Transitioning to Muta
+ Show Spoiler +

Remember our two conditions for the start of the midgame: If protoss even sneezes funny, we defend aggression with roach/ling/spines. If toss is going for the fast third play or is not being aggressive, we can go for mutas.
The moment the 2nd condition is fulfilled – it's safe to expand, protoss is not being aggressive, we have map control with speedlings, then it is safe to go muta. Start the spire ASAP, you could potentially proxy it if you'd like. You want gas at your 3rd ASAP, and a 4th (toss will usually have a 3rd in these scenarios). Take those gases as well. Forgo units that cost gas (roaches/banelings), 1/1 should already be started before the spire starts. To remain active across the map and to have a strong ling count by the time mutas show up, continue with ling production (although being sure to have enough larvae for the mutas). Be sure that you are not supply blocked when the spire finishes. Start +1 attack and as many mutas as possible when the spire finishes.

Execution
+ Show Spoiler +

The mobility of muta/ling gives us lots of multi-pronged harassment opportunities.
Mutas are in one hotkey (3), lings are in separate hotkeys(1,2). I like one hotkey of lings which is my main ground force with a majority of my lings and if available some speedbanes (1). Then I have a separate control group with a smaller amount of lings (16-32, 1-2 rows of eggs,)(2). Usually, 3 control groups total. Don't be afraid to combine both the muta and the ling forces together (1,3, but not in the same hotkey), they are very potent when engaging together while another set of lings (2) hits elsewhere.
Keep in mind that the protoss (before he sees mutas) will usually position the army between the natural and the third or at the third.
Timing also has something to do with it, as you have to give toss a couple of seconds to actually move his army before other runbys can start catching his army out of position.
When engaging stalkers with pure muta, only do so if you have a blatant numbers advantage. Otherwise, stalkers can only be engaged with ling support. As soon as you run out of lings vs the stalkers, retreat unless you have the numbers advantage. Again, while all of this is happening, a third control group of lings (2) can be running around elsewhere to deal damage.
When going for a nexus, both the lings and the mutas can focus it down, when it gets low enough in health the lings can just a-move to kill at least some number of ground forces while the mutas finish it off.
To summarize, we generally continue engaging until we see a fight we can't win. Run away and hit elsewhere while producing continual reinforcements. We will only take the heads up fight that we know we can win. Focus firing and pull-back micro with mutas, surrounding with lings, and other basic stuff still applies.
Refer to the replays as well.

After We Get Mutas Out
+ Show Spoiler +

I would say the scariest part of the game is over. Muta/ling gives us an unprecidented aggression mechanism, and our mobility lends us a lot of multi-pronging ability. While executing the aggression on toss's side of the map always remember to keep transitioning. That means to:
-keep taking bases
-periodically build spines (every time you're floating 1k, make 5 spines, replace drones)
-+1 air attack (continue when possible)
-start 2/2 (3/3 + adrenal glands when possible)
-get an infestation pit/baneling nest (infestor energy+bane speed when possible)
-start hive + ultra den
-ovie speed/drops/burrow
I would prioritize these continued upgrades over more mutas. Make more mutas as you can, but not at the expense of your transition. Lings can be reproduced en-masse, their only cost is larvae (keep injecting!).

Base Trading
+ Show Spoiler +

Often times there will be points in the game where toss will be more than willing to try and base race with you. These scenarios are triggered when he has either sustained too much damage to continue the macro game, or he naturally base trades as a response to mutas. DO NOT BE AFRAID TO BASE TRADE WITH THE PROTOSS. That's what all those periodical spines were for. As the more mobile force, you ALWAYS have the option to retreat when its unsafe or change positions on the map when the situation becomes unfavorable. Additionally, lings have strong rates of fire, and mutas do splash (glave worms bounce). Also, the health of zerg buildings > the health of protoss buildings. So when you do in fact base trade here are some priorities:
-wreck production/cyber, don't give toss chances to spend his bank.
-kill the nexus, get him revealed ASAP.
-once he pulls probes, kill ALL the probes. Not killing every last probe risks him spending his bank.
-retreat your ovies into a corner, continue making as much army as possible.
-make sure to pull your own drones to the other side of the map. If you can use drops to save your drones, do so.
-start your own rebuilding process. Continue mining at fringe expansions, rebuild tech, take bases on the other side of the map.
Keep in mind base trading with a low amount of lings is a less-than-optimal situation. Mutas base trading by themselves are not that great – lings provide a lot of the dps and being in 1-2 separate control groups lends a lot to the multi-pronging and mobility factor.

Lategame
+ Show Spoiler +

I have very rarely reached this stage of the game at the masters level. Nearly ALL of my ZvPs in which mutas are used will end with muta/ling outright killing the toss or will end in a base trade. For our late game, I very much enjoy using ultralisks as yet another stepping stone into broods. This is for a couple of reasons:

-midgame aggression can sometimes lead into very volitile/unstable scenarios. Broods/infestors take a long time to get to, even with spines/mutas. Ultras provide an easily-accessible way to stabilize our situation on the ground to then bounce up to broods while building an infestor count.
-ultras share upgrades with lings. Combined with speedbanes, the ultrabane is already upgraded and thus natural to transition into. Ultralisks also share the same movement speed as upgraded banelings, forming a nice synergy.
-composition wise, ultras are a very strong choice. Blink stalkers are decent against mutas and reasonable for sniping broods, but do not fare well at all against 3/5 ultras (and the speed banes accompanying them). Ultras also walk through storms pretty well. Toss is not concerned with making immortals, collosus, or chargelots when you're being aggressive with muta/ling.

After said ultras are out, the situation has on the ground has stabilized such that it is now very safe. Build the infestor count and then go into broods. If you've been upgrading from the spire the whole time broods will start with +3 attack while you begin armor.

Replays
+ Show Spoiler +

*Note that I'm not a strong zerg at all – my execution is very sloppy and could certainly be improved. These replays are here to try and illustrate a better picture of the style.

+1 4gate
http://drop.sc/287324 – Daybreak

2 Base All-in
http://drop.sc/287320 – Immortal Sentry All-in on Cloud
http://drop.sc/287318 – Immortal Sentry All-in on Shakuras
http://drop.sc/286026 – Immortal Sentry All-in on Daybreak
http://drop.sc/287326 – Collosus Archon Chargelot I don't know what on Shakuras
http://drop.sc/287327 – Collosus Gateway All-in on Daybreak
http://drop.sc/287330 – DTs into Collosus Archon All-in on Shakuras

Fast Third
http://drop.sc/287316 – Ohana – muta ling outright kills the toss
http://drop.sc/287317 – Daybreak – base race
http://drop.sc/287325 – Daybreak – base race
http://drop.sc/287392 – Condemned Ridge – ideal execution; aside from small engagement mistakes and transitioning, I am maxed at 13 minutes with more than enough room to transition
http://drop.sc/295625 – Condemned Ridge – I reached the lategame (hive tech)! Ultralisks hit the field, but the game ends in a base race.

Additional Resources
+ Show Spoiler +

The daily that started it all! TLO's elements of play are all seen here, and compiled into one coherent style in this guide.
http://day9.tv/d/Day9/tlo-innovates-zerg-again/
Undoubtedly one of the hardest part of playing mutas is understanding the transition. Here Ret and DRG dailies provide some insight.
http://day9.tv/d/Day9/day9-daily-476-zvp-mutalisk-transitioning/
http://day9.tv/d/Day9/drgs-zvp-style/
Our 8:00 pure ling production is our first step in holding off all-ins. While you don't have to use TLO's style, this thread undoubtedly explains how to hold the immortal sentry.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=360647
Belial's ZvP bible! Our opening is a little different than standard, so all the sections from "Scouting the Protoss" to "Avoiding Ridiculous Losses..." are relevant to us.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=320038
Discussions about fast mutalisks holding immortal sentry.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=339136
Discussions about the ultralisk being used as a stepping stone to broods. It would appear as if Symbol uses ultralisks to stabilize against 3 base toss aggression and buys him time and safety to then transition.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=346535

FAQ
+ Show Spoiler +

Huk style 7/8gate zealot all-in? +1 4gate?
First step is scouting it. Ovie scouting gas at the toss natural will see no gas at 6:30. At that point we know it's ok to throw down an earlier roach warren and a 2nd gas to support roach production. Ovie sac at 7:30 confirms our fears, lots of roach ling production to hold off the attack.

I also plan to be editting the OP to account for any changes that I make or if new replays/ideas come to light. I'll be updating the replays whenever possible, as well as the FAQ.
Thanks to my clan members at OverDosed who convinced me to write the guide, and to Sigil and auTHORity at IGE (imperiumgamingempire.org) for proof-reading.
Questions, comments, concerns? Please comment below or PM me

AndromedaOD.460
SherLocK.930
Bnet Channel: Clan OD
Stream: twitch.tv/andromedastrain
overdosed.net

Drmooose

United States390 Posts

December 30 2012 06:48 GMT

Very interesting read. I've been going muta ling in both nonmirrors and I'm having issues with gas timings v Todd. (too early I think) Will be trying this out tomorrow. ~1k masters

ineversmile

United States583 Posts

December 30 2012 07:04 GMT

This looks like the industry standard Muta/Ling midgame. What am I missing?

Andromedan

64 Posts

December 30 2012 07:09 GMT

On December 30 2012 16:04 ineversmile wrote:
This looks like the industry standard Muta/Ling midgame. What am I missing?

I guess this is the "industry standard". I just did a write up on it.
I think TLO's method of holding off the immortal sentry all in with spines and nydus is something to be discussed though.
That and my preference of ultras before broods, to take advantage of the toss composition and aggression's instability.

ineversmile

United States583 Posts

December 30 2012 08:04 GMT

On December 30 2012 16:09 Andromedan wrote:

Show nested quote +

OK, that makes more sense. I was looking through the guide and thought I might have missed some things. I have always liked the concept of a Nydus to counter the immortal/sentry push, and there were a couple other tactical aspects of the guide that I liked. I just kinda got lost in the "this is another muta/ling guide" aspect, the first time skimming through.

I hear ya, though--this is sort of how I play Protoss. I try to have games mapped out like an algorithm, from early game to late (or to calling the opponent's bluff and going all-in reactively).

Defenestrator

400 Posts

December 30 2012 10:04 GMT

Are lings sufficient to hold +1 gateway pressure, especially zealot-heavy? I always feel like lings are just super-cost inefficient vs this. Also, what about 7/8gate, or chargelot/archon allins?

Agh

United States896 Posts

December 30 2012 10:15 GMT

uhh, a +1 4gate comes at 7:30, your 3rd is probably gone.

Andromedan

64 Posts

December 30 2012 10:26 GMT

On December 30 2012 19:04 Defenestrator wrote:
Are lings sufficient to hold +1 gateway pressure, especially zealot-heavy? I always feel like lings are just super-cost inefficient vs this. Also, what about 7/8gate, or chargelot/archon allins?

uhh, a +1 4gate comes at 7:30, your 3rd is probably gone.

First is your ovie scout on the toss's natural gas at 6:30. If there isn't gas there then it's ok to throw down a precautionary roach warren. Then remember you start insane ling production at 8:00. The lings will be able to at least pressure the forward probe/zealot/stalker, if not kill the forward pylon assuming you can spot it with ovies before 8:00.
Additionally, "standard" zvp gas timings get x2 gas at 6, roach warren at 7. If a 4gate did hit at 7:30 (replay for this???) "standard" play would only have 200 gas with neither ling speed nor roaches available to build so "standard" play would lose the third anyway.
As for the zealot all-ins:

This push can come as early as 8:00.

Cut drone production at 8:00, or ~70 supply, or ~55 drones (if these aren't one and the same, you may have to reflect on your macro), and then going into 100% unit production of roach/ling. You should have started Roach Production around 7:30, as well.

Straight from Belial's zvp guide. We cut drone production at 8 anyway in favor of lings, and scouting the gas will lead us to build the precautionary roach warren. Roach ling holds the attack.

Cyro

United Kingdom20274 Posts

December 30 2012 10:29 GMT

How does this hold vs HuK's 8gate? (which will give you 10 zealots and a stalker at the proxy pylon at ~7:50-8:00 with +1)

Tightly timed parting-style immortal sentry all in (leaving at 8:50, hasty move across map and zealot heavy) also seems like this style would be even more vunerable than "standard" 3hatch play.

Overall it seems good but like you are playing to a relatively rigid plan without prioritizing scouting or the little ques early in the game to abuse the protoss, so you might be on the wrong side of a build order disadvantage because of that

Andromedan

64 Posts

December 30 2012 10:46 GMT

#10

On December 30 2012 19:29 Cyro wrote:
How does this hold vs HuK's 8gate? (which will give you 10 zealots and a stalker at the proxy pylon at ~7:50-8:00 with +1)

Tightly timed parting-style immortal sentry all in (leaving at 8:50, hasty move across map and zealot heavy) also seems like this style would be even more vunerable than "standard" 3hatch play.

Overall it seems good but like you are playing to a relatively rigid plan without prioritizing scouting or the little ques early in the game to abuse the protoss, so you might be on the wrong side of a build order disadvantage because of that

Same response as above. Standard play would have around 300 gas when that hits, and an earlier roach warren to begin production. We would still get ling speed (start at 6:30, same time as ovie gas scout) but skip lair and go for a faster roach warren. Add on a 2nd gas to support roach production, and hold the push with roach ling.

In terms of the immortal sentry all-in, please look at my 2 base all-in immortal sentry walk through. I outline with pictures TLO's style of holding off the all-in, with lots of roach ling spine and nydusing the main to wreck production. This prevents toss from spending his money while the nydus gives us lots of mobility.

Lastly, could you be a little more specific as to how we're not prioritizing scouting? Just like standard play, we can position an ovie outside his natural gases early to spot at 6:30, as well as sac an ovie at 7:30. We can scout just like any other zerg player. If anything, we're scouting better because the 8:00 ling speed gives us the mobility to clear pylons/probes and aggressively poke the toss front.

pwnz0r

United States123 Posts

December 30 2012 11:19 GMT

#11

I do something similar to this style, but i basically dont make any lings. How do you feel about sinking minerals into mass mass MASS spine crawlers instead of zerglings? Your mobility and ability to kill buildings isn't as good, but the toss will never be able to kill you. I've had amazing success with muta/spine in low masters, and I regularly beat players who I feel are much better than I am.

Mahtasooma

Germany475 Posts

December 30 2012 11:36 GMT

#12

Watched two replays.

The one against Collo Archon / whatnot is far from the build you suggest, even without pressure.
Against the 4gate, you don't build any roaches at all and lose a lot of ling-ressources to that, even losing your 3rd.

In a basetrade, I think it's always better to go nat => main => third, because one, the third is far better defended (because usually the nat is behind a wall with one cannon and FFs), two there's no tech at the nat, three you're faster in his main where all his tech is sitting (in the replay you go there last).

The problem I have with muta ling is when he turtles on three base, having all his units spread out very well (because some stalkers with 2 cannons can hold virtually any number of muta), meanwhile he's teching to archon / stalker / chargelot and will roll you in the end when you don't tech fast enough (which I don't).

Andromedan

64 Posts

December 30 2012 11:41 GMT

#13

On December 30 2012 20:19 pwnz0r wrote:
I do something similar to this style, but i basically dont make any lings. How do you feel about sinking minerals into mass mass MASS spine crawlers instead of zerglings? Your mobility and ability to kill buildings isn't as good, but the toss will never be able to kill you. I've had amazing success with muta/spine in low masters, and I regularly beat players who I feel are much better than I am.

I feel as if that style of play is far more in line with a ling infestor style, rushing hive. That style is very possible with this kind of opening up to 8:00, we get double evo to support double ups going into the midgame.
It's a personal preference for me to be aggressive like this, and we have the 4th hatchery to support the larvae for it.
The other problem I find is that because mutas are the only form of harass, it makes the harass very one dimensional, and if protoss is able to mass lots of blink stalkers on 2 fronts (the third/main), you really can't do anything. The lings is what makes engaging the ground army head on possible, as well as abusing flanks/sides/army positions that pure muta would not. In addition, lings make it easier to expand, where as spine crawlers are much slower and only kill a certain amount of units before they die. Pre-hive timings that are designed to break spine walls/festors but fall to muta ling could imaginably hold pure muta with nothing but stalker production and chrono'd blink. Lings in my opinion have infinitely more function in that regard.

Andromedan

64 Posts

December 30 2012 11:47 GMT

#14

On December 30 2012 20:36 Mahtasooma wrote:
In a basetrade, I think it's always better to go nat => main => third, because one, the third is far better defended (because usually the nat is behind a wall with one cannon and FFs), two there's no tech at the nat, three you're faster in his main where all his tech is sitting (in the replay you go there last).

The problem I have with muta ling is when he turtles on three base, having all his units spread out very well (because some stalkers with 2 cannons can hold virtually any number of muta), meanwhile he's teching to archon / stalker / chargelot and will roll you in the end when you don't tech fast enough (which I don't).

I happen to start in that order because I was already at the third while the base trade began. I don't want to leave a position I already have because I can just kill those buildings and not have to worry about the position anymore. If I could just pick any place to start the base trade, there are other replays where I do start at the natural/more tech/production based places. I list that in the priorities mentioned under "Basetrading".
Secondly, aggression can be tailored to abuse spread out armies. What a lot of people on this thread are underestimating (in my opinion) is that muta ling together can directly engage stalker armies, and together can break the front and let the lings run in and mutas wreck havoc.
While I agree that a turtling toss would be able to hold pure muta alone, muta ling gives us an avenue of attack while giving us the opportunity to tech as hard as you mention. In some replays (Condemned Ridge?) I can remain very very aggressive and break the toss while still starting 2/2 and infestation pit before 13-14 minutes.

Cyro

United Kingdom20274 Posts

December 30 2012 15:51 GMT

#15

On December 30 2012 19:46 Andromedan wrote:

Show nested quote +

You are in a WEAKER position than standard play vs HuK all in by a large margin though. Its the kind of all in that you simply cant defend by standard means using lings

In regards to the scouting thing, you just dont seem to be looking for lots of little things or being aware of tiny timings or things in general that a high level protoss offracing as zerg would know to identify, that gives you less edges in your play

Asterion

Germany193 Posts

December 30 2012 16:26 GMT

#16

Great guide, have been looking for a muta/ling guide for some time now. However, while I am sure that the nydus/spine strategy works very well on ladder (and have seen TLO do it on stream) don't you think if your opponent knows about this and pays more attention to his main (spawning nydusses) the whole strategy just falls short? I mean, if you can't get into his main you are basically giving up your nat and 3rd for basically nothing. Or is there a way to pull it off even if the opponent is aware that this is your go-to counter to the immortal sentry all-in? I guess what I mean is, is this viable at the pro-level with preparation?

PS. Not that it would matter for me, I am pretty terrible

Andromedan

64 Posts

December 30 2012 22:12 GMT

#17

On December 31 2012 00:51 Cyro wrote:

Show nested quote +

We compensate for what would be only ling production by scouting the gas and getting an earlier roach warren and a 2nd gas to support roach production. We hold off those kinds of all-ins with roach ling, not just with pure ling. That's what I suggested in my last response. Next, the roach ling that we do have is going to be stronger because unlike standard play we'll have ling speed so our roach ling will be more likely to get better engagements and keep roaches alive than slow lings would.

And while I don't seem like I prioritize scouting, there still isn't a reason why this style would not scout any less than an ordinary zerg. While my shitty play may neglect this, that shouldn't be a reason to stop you from realizing the potential of this style or playing/scouting better than I do.

However, while I am sure that the nydus/spine strategy works very well on ladder (and have seen TLO do it on stream) don't you think if your opponent knows about this and pays more attention to his main (spawning nydusses) the whole strategy just falls short? I mean, if you can't get into his main you are basically giving up your nat and 3rd for basically nothing. Or is there a way to pull it off even if the opponent is aware that this is your go-to counter to the immortal sentry all-in? I guess what I mean is, is this viable at the pro-level with preparation?

The worst case scenario is that you nydus outside of his natural. In the midgame section I suggested 2-3 overseerers out to get a position, worst case scenario is that you nydus the front of the natural, break the front and take out the cyber core, then nydus the main as roach-ling moves forward to defend and make your escape exit.
If you actually watch the TLO daily that I listed in additional resources, you actually see a game where TLO does not get the main with the nydus. But the concept of backstabbing with nydus while using spine walls as a response to the all-in is not only viable but has been proven by TLO's results at the prolevel.

Deleted User 283390

United States6 Posts

December 31 2012 02:21 GMT

#18

Good guide Andro! Well researched and has a very good WL ratio. Nice to see you're getting OD some exposure

~~ OD Fighting ~~

Iksf

United Kingdom444 Posts

December 31 2012 03:02 GMT

#19

I go mutas almost every game vs protoss but iv gotta say i dont like this way of doing it. The early gas is personal preferance ofc but i dont think its worth it. Your overlord sack is too late to really see anything and i really dont like double ling upgrades when going spire.

My own style is basically

3 hatch
3 gas up quickly as you prefer, i normally go 3 @ 6:10 but i sometimes just go 2 and delay the 3rd a bit.
Ovie sack @ 6:40, considering gateways from either a 4 gate pressure or any 7 gate should start @ 6:30
If gates or stargate, roach warren etc into usual stephanoesque stuff.
Else, lair @100g, speed @100g, 6 gas by 8 mins, 7:45 evo for any suprises, spire by 8:30

Constant ling production after spire starts to help delay a 3rd or any push coming across the map
15 mutas should be out by about 10:20
between the lings, mutas and spines u can hold a 7 gate robo.

As for lategame i personally like mass muta to just deny a 4th forever with minimal hive tech.

Vs stargate, though your completely right hiding mutas and waiting for a good number then just overpowering him does work, i really dislike that risk. If protoss plays properly you end up in a very bad place vs stargate so its better to abandon this vs stargate.

1.2k master

quickml

United States17 Posts

January 02 2013 03:49 GMT

#20

Thanks for the write up. I have been leaning towards Muta/Ling myself. With P being my weakest match up I have been doing a lot of testing.

1 2 Next All

Please or register to reply.

[G] Andromeda's ZvP

Completed

Ongoing

Upcoming