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On February 01 2013 01:45 cassurai wrote:
Mutas are absolutely not good vs a twilight robo 3 gateway into 3rd base fast upgrades build (which, btw, works very well vs fast hive builds too due to fast upgrades)
You speak of how to defend protoss all-ins and early aggressions, but not how to fight vs a protoss who gets a fast 3rd off twilight, robo, 4 gates, and zealot, stalker and 6 sentries and simply macros vs you. base race won't work vs good players who keeps like 2 cannons, a few stalkers, and a templar each at two of the P bases and sack the other, while diligently multitasking attack and defense.
2 cannons some stalkers and a templar is no where near enough to hold a base and investment in a robo and twilight and third relying on basically pure sentries early on leaves you pretty vulnerable to the first wave of mutalisks.
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On February 01 2013 02:39 Iksf wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2013 01:45 cassurai wrote:
Mutas are absolutely not good vs a twilight robo 3 gateway into 3rd base fast upgrades build (which, btw, works very well vs fast hive builds too due to fast upgrades)
You speak of how to defend protoss all-ins and early aggressions, but not how to fight vs a protoss who gets a fast 3rd off twilight, robo, 4 gates, and zealot, stalker and 6 sentries and simply macros vs you. base race won't work vs good players who keeps like 2 cannons, a few stalkers, and a templar each at two of the P bases and sack the other, while diligently multitasking attack and defense. 2 cannons some stalkers and a templar is no where near enough to hold a base and investment in a robo and twilight and third relying on basically pure sentries early on leaves you pretty vulnerable to the first wave of mutalisks.
It's perfectly fine if you play defensively, ball up a big army, and then move out in the direction of the mutas (so you zone them out and push them back). It's not just a couple stalkers and cannons and 1 HT at each base, either; it's also that the toss can storm to force your mutas to move for a couple seconds, warp in a round of stalkers at home, pull his probes back from the mutas, blink stalkers from another base, and then have a bunch of stalkers ready to catch your mutas. And then he's still pushing you base with his main army, unless you're exiting the toss's base in a direction towards his army, and he's blinking back to trap your mutas and kill almost all of them.
So much of blink vs muta play is based upon fluid positioning, which is why it's hard to describe situations and tactics clearly with just words.
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I have a question. How do you fricken beat this? I get this a lot on ladder I have a 0% winrate against it. I am master btw if that helps.
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On February 01 2013 01:41 Iksf wrote:
For me focus priority in baserace is
Templar archives / DT
Upgrading Forge
Artosis Pylons
Core
Probes and Nexi
Simple reasoning,
Eliminating threat of DTs is really nice, removing storm and archons makes winning an engagement easier if necessary.
Decent protoss will accept the threat of a baserace so will have probes on the map with bank to build something, hence killing their probes quickly wont necessarily help you.
From there you can proceed to try hunt down the nexi / pylons they make on the map, can always come back for the other stuff.
Is the same if it isn't a base trade? Do you try and snipe things out in that order in just normal mid game harass as well?
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On February 01 2013 03:18 ineversmile wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2013 02:39 Iksf wrote:On February 01 2013 01:45 cassurai wrote:
Mutas are absolutely not good vs a twilight robo 3 gateway into 3rd base fast upgrades build (which, btw, works very well vs fast hive builds too due to fast upgrades)
You speak of how to defend protoss all-ins and early aggressions, but not how to fight vs a protoss who gets a fast 3rd off twilight, robo, 4 gates, and zealot, stalker and 6 sentries and simply macros vs you. base race won't work vs good players who keeps like 2 cannons, a few stalkers, and a templar each at two of the P bases and sack the other, while diligently multitasking attack and defense. 2 cannons some stalkers and a templar is no where near enough to hold a base and investment in a robo and twilight and third relying on basically pure sentries early on leaves you pretty vulnerable to the first wave of mutalisks. It's perfectly fine if you play defensively, ball up a big army, and then move out in the direction of the mutas (so you zone them out and push them back). It's not just a couple stalkers and cannons and 1 HT at each base, either; it's also that the toss can storm to force your mutas to move for a couple seconds, warp in a round of stalkers at home, pull his probes back from the mutas, blink stalkers from another base, and then have a bunch of stalkers ready to catch your mutas. And then he's still pushing you base with his main army, unless you're exiting the toss's base in a direction towards his army, and he's blinking back to trap your mutas and kill almost all of them. So much of blink vs muta play is based upon fluid positioning, which is why it's hard to describe situations and tactics clearly with just words.
If your army is out of position and your relying on a storm to force me back to buy time il just magic box through the storm and kill you. Zoning mutalisks out with your push is completely a zerg positional mistake
On February 01 2013 09:19 dproberts55 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2013 01:41 Iksf wrote:
For me focus priority in baserace is
Templar archives / DT
Upgrading Forge
Artosis Pylons
Core
Probes and Nexi
Simple reasoning,
Eliminating threat of DTs is really nice, removing storm and archons makes winning an engagement easier if necessary.
Decent protoss will accept the threat of a baserace so will have probes on the map with bank to build something, hence killing their probes quickly wont necessarily help you.
From there you can proceed to try hunt down the nexi / pylons they make on the map, can always come back for the other stuff. Is the same if it isn't a base trade? Do you try and snipe things out in that order in just normal mid game harass as well?
When your harassing you just take whatever you can get you dont have the option to be fussy really.
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Thank so much for this guide. I always liked mutas VS toss, but it did not work well. But now I see it has to be really dedicated muta build - no gas into ground army (only speed for lings) and full on mutas.
I did this style several times and always worked. After long time I even recieved "so imba" leaving message  . What I need to polish right now are upgrades for air (with second spire) and better expanding since I am often left with to much minerals and no gas. I also consider get at least +1 for lings, since I build them when there is lot of minerals.
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On February 01 2013 02:39 Iksf wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2013 01:45 cassurai wrote:
Mutas are absolutely not good vs a twilight robo 3 gateway into 3rd base fast upgrades build (which, btw, works very well vs fast hive builds too due to fast upgrades)
You speak of how to defend protoss all-ins and early aggressions, but not how to fight vs a protoss who gets a fast 3rd off twilight, robo, 4 gates, and zealot, stalker and 6 sentries and simply macros vs you. base race won't work vs good players who keeps like 2 cannons, a few stalkers, and a templar each at two of the P bases and sack the other, while diligently multitasking attack and defense. 2 cannons some stalkers and a templar is no where near enough to hold a base and investment in a robo and twilight and third relying on basically pure sentries early on leaves you pretty vulnerable to the first wave of mutalisks.
Completely wrong. Sorry.
Any Twilight before Robo fast upgrades build into 3rd nexus will completely own 3 hatch Mutas unless Protoss has very poor Stalker / Templar control.
If you're going for cheesy like a 2 hatch Muta rush, then yes, you just might catch some probes off guard but you aren't going to have that many Mutas to make an impact anyhow. And you've shown your hand.
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On February 02 2013 20:01 cassurai wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2013 02:39 Iksf wrote:On February 01 2013 01:45 cassurai wrote:
Mutas are absolutely not good vs a twilight robo 3 gateway into 3rd base fast upgrades build (which, btw, works very well vs fast hive builds too due to fast upgrades)
You speak of how to defend protoss all-ins and early aggressions, but not how to fight vs a protoss who gets a fast 3rd off twilight, robo, 4 gates, and zealot, stalker and 6 sentries and simply macros vs you. base race won't work vs good players who keeps like 2 cannons, a few stalkers, and a templar each at two of the P bases and sack the other, while diligently multitasking attack and defense. 2 cannons some stalkers and a templar is no where near enough to hold a base and investment in a robo and twilight and third relying on basically pure sentries early on leaves you pretty vulnerable to the first wave of mutalisks. Completely wrong. Sorry. Any Twilight before Robo fast upgrades build into 3rd nexus will completely own 3 hatch Mutas unless Protoss has very poor Stalker / Templar control. If you're going for cheesy like a 2 hatch Muta rush, then yes, you just might catch some probes off guard but you aren't going to have that many Mutas to make an impact anyhow. And you've shown your hand.
While I love watching people trade why their build does/doesn't work back and forth purely with speech, why don't you two just play a game and just post the replay.
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On February 01 2013 08:40 SCG.StatiC wrote:
I have a question. How do you fricken beat this? I get this a lot on ladder I have a 0% winrate against it. I am master btw if that helps.
I play random so I have been on each side of this build, my best chance of beating it is to launch a heavy blink attack of two bases, and cannon up one nexus like crazy. He will go for a trade, so my goal is to kill enough so that my one remaining base is better than his setup. An observer is handy to blink around spine walls.
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On February 02 2013 23:23 kyllinghest wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2013 08:40 SCG.StatiC wrote:
I have a question. How do you fricken beat this? I get this a lot on ladder I have a 0% winrate against it. I am master btw if that helps. I play random so I have been on each side of this build, my best chance of beating it is to launch a heavy blink attack of two bases, and cannon up one nexus like crazy. He will go for a trade, so my goal is to kill enough so that my one remaining base is better than his setup. An observer is handy to blink around spine walls.
Infact I think 2basing vs this is one of the worst things you can possibly do as protoss. Zerg can just make spines in his main and counter or even just kill your army with muta ling. If you do not have a stargate I think you should absolutely try for a third instead of attacking.
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Personally, I think that nobody can beat me with 3 bases mass muta. Because even if it's not common in the metagame, a DT drop just roll over this.
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On February 05 2013 05:01 nSgNeverDie wrote:
Personally, I think that nobody can beat me with 3 bases mass muta. Because even if it's not common in the metagame, a DT drop just roll over this.
I don't get why DT is so lethal to this. I haven't used it much, so please be patient with me =). But, can't you just build an overseer, fly back to your base and take them out, then stick an overseer plus a few spines at each base? Also, going DTs is expensive, which means less archons, high templars/storm, cannons and stalkers right?
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Well, the problem with 3 bases fast tech builds is that zerg doesnt have roaches in the mid-game.
So if a protoss is coming at 9:30 with 8 gates, a warpprism and DT tech, what does he see ?
-Building tech building
-full speedlings (slowlings ??)
The amazing thing with this build order is that 8 DTs > XXXX lings, and once you have killed all the speedlings, you just snipe the spire.
A lot of people are going to say "yes, but no, because if you are late due to a pressure and if muta are out when DTs are in his base, you have lost".
To this I'm just going to answer that the amazing thing with DTs is their ability to morph in archons.
Of course you cant do this kind of build without being semi-all in, but muta is soooo annoying with classic gameplay, and if he is going on some sort of Roach build (means you have mis-scooted), then you just warp 8 sentries at home, keeping your gaz.
I keep thinking that muta is a good build in the current metagame, but take care, some people can make builds who just ROFLLOL over this.
Oh, and i were about to forgot, I'm a mid-GM toss, so please dont lol at me saying i'm silver.
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On February 05 2013 06:21 nSgNeverDie wrote:
Well, the problem with 3 bases fast tech builds is that zerg doesnt have roaches in the mid-game.
So if a protoss is coming at 9:30 with 8 gates, a warpprism and DT tech, what does he see ?
Can we see replays of this? Seems like an interesting combination of tech.
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On February 05 2013 05:01 nSgNeverDie wrote:
Personally, I think that nobody can beat me with 3 bases mass muta. Because even if it's not common in the metagame, a DT drop just roll over this.
Yes there are allins that counter this style really well if you skip a roach warren. An 8gate zealot warpprism already destroys this build if you skip a roach warren and don't see it coming. however if zerg spends the 200 minerals on the warren or scouts at the proper times things like the DT drop or the zealot allin will just fall appart and die, that's why they are uncommon in the metagame.
Also, if you don't scout a DT drop I'd imagine you die against it with any zerg style, cuz you know. 4 dts kill a lair before you can morph in an overseer, or 20 drones.
And finaly, you say you hit at 9:30, but with this build thats right when zerg's spire finishes up and he starts 14 muta eggs. What do you do if you just warped in 8 DTs and they all get murdered by mutas? ye... you lose.
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On February 05 2013 16:46 Moonrisesc wrote:
Yes there are allins that counter this style really well if you skip a roach warren. An 8gate zealot warpprism already destroys this build if you skip a roach warren and don't see it coming. however if zerg spends the 200 minerals on the warren or scouts at the proper times things like the DT drop or the zealot allin will just fall appart and die, that's why they are uncommon in the metagame.
Also, if you don't scout a DT drop I'd imagine you die against it with any zerg style, cuz you know. 4 dts kill a lair before you can morph in an overseer, or 20 drones.
And finaly, you say you hit at 9:30, but with this build thats right when zerg's spire finishes up and he starts 14 muta eggs. What do you do if you just warped in 8 DTs and they all get murdered by mutas? ye... you lose.
When I say 9:30, it's the latest timing, usually you are in a fews seconds earlier (like 9:15).
I have forgotten to say that I open double gate zealot +1 pressure, which force the zerg to make a loooot of lings (and if I dont see roaches I know i can kill him) and this is delaying his mutas timing.
Someone wanted replays ^^, well, I'll post some today !
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What do you mean 2gate + 1 zealot?
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I mean an opening with 2 early gates which is going to allow me to put early pressure while being cost efficient thanks to +1 attack.
On the other hand I delay my cyber (that it put at about 5:30) but it doesnt matter, if i were not delaying it, I wouldnt be able to provide enought gaz to get DT and robo tech.
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So it sounds like FFE (nexus/forge/cannon in whatever order) into gate-gate-core.
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Basically it is Forge => Nexus => cannon => 2* gaz => gate => gate => core
But i'm going to post replays, anyway. (versus muta, because it is a topic on this style, not on mine ^^')
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EPT
