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On January 30 2013 08:34 Iksf wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2013 07:56 rPontare wrote:
I saw one mention this, but as it went unanswered ill repeat the question. I take for granted that muta upgrades shuld be started instantly, but how about a second spire at around 11-12min when the contain is established? If 2/1 should be done at about 14min a reasonably fast hive to start 3/2 would scale rediciously with the mutaball. Maybe even out-upgrade the stalkers. The later is obviously not going to happen vs double forge but the possibility is still there.
Nice guide. Came over this to late at night making me unable to play. Will dedicate my thoughts to this vs math in a procent ratio of hundred-to-zero tomorrow. Im not sure what I think about it. Obviously double ups are good for muta survival and all but you shouldnt be taking many direct fights. Il play with it see what I decide I like better.
Regardless of the number of spires, would one prioritize the armor before attack for survivability or the other way around? Its always nice to burst down small clusters of stalkers or buildings, and the attack scales so good with the numbers. Though, the carapace would minimize the losses you take every time you are escaping blink or dodging a storm.
All and all this is exciting stuff. Thanks.
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Carapace is better for dealing with units that have a high rate of fire. In the case of protoss antiair, that includes cannons, phoenixes, and carriers. It is somewhat useful against stalkers, but most of the time stalkers will lead into a storm/archon transition, and armor is useless against those two things. Carapace is also better if you intend to go into broodlord/corruptor, since the upgrade carries over throughout that transition.
Air attack is better for doing a higher burst damage, in the case of fighting lower firing rate units/spellcasters, or for hit-and-run attacks where your defense is your ability to fly away when the protoss reinforces wherever you're attacking. In the case of protoss units, this means any kind of harassment against probes/building, any time you use your mutas to pick off a small group of units on the map, sniping HTs, and sniping stray archons. Basically, air attack is best used for hit-and-run and for fighting where your opponent is weak.
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On January 28 2013 19:30 Moonrisesc wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2013 13:23 ineversmile wrote:On January 27 2013 23:06 Natalya wrote:
If you're interested in countering immortal all-in + playing muta zvp, definetly try ST.Life's recent muta build.
Standard 15 pool 16 hatch thing, get lings to push the scout back, but dont take your third, instead take a gas once you've you queen started and you've used every larva. Try to not let the protoss know u're 2 basing.
Make lair with first 100 gas and take a second gas as you start lair, then 3rd gas as your second gas is finishing, same for the 4rth gas.
Make spire then ling speed then 3rd. This hit SO early protoss will not even have 2 immortals when you attack them, so they're pretty much forced to defend and they're pretty screwed at that point.
Life transition after the first 8 mutas (no air upgrades) into infestor/ling/roach/hive/4rth. His mutas are a guarantee of getting a ton of probe kills and forcing protoss to go blink stalker heavy + cannons, which means mutas ALWAYS pay for themselves. Most protosses will 2 base all-in as a response once they have 3 canons each mineral line, not even trying to take a 3rd. And their all in is easily shut down because u'll be maxed on 70 drones and infestors roaches lings.
Since you're 2 basing, protoss allining would be a bad idea but if they do anything like gate agression, you can spine your natural, make roach warren and be fine (they cant push through spines and mutas will kill their mineral line soon enough). Replay/VODs seem necessary because whoever he was facing did a terrible job of scouting. Life does win a lot of games because a lot of pros cut corners with their scouting. If you don't take a third in front of the protoss's face, it's up to him to go out there and double-check your third. That's not very hard--all it takes is a zealot or two or zealot/stalker poke to check the third and then go home. Sometimes, the immo/sentry push comes after a +1 zealot pressure--the pressure is going to see no third and then immediately turn around and lead to a followup which acknowledges the potential for mutas. And you basically have to plan to go fast lair on 2base before you see whether it's a Robo or any other kind of tech, so if the toss doesn't do the immo-sentry push at all--even if he assumes you have a third--the other options for him are so much more dangerous for you. He could go stargate and have 4 phoenixes out by the time you have mutas. He could go twilight for a +2 blink-based composition for map control. He could go double forge mass-gate play--which is really coming into fashion now that armor and shield upgrades are infinitely better against infested terrans. You don't know what he's going to do. So basically, this build is gambling heavily on the protoss doing one specific 2-base push, not seeing your lack of a third base, and not preparing for a fairly obvious 2-base muta play. It's fine to use aggressive styles and to put on pressure, but if you're actually assuming 2-base muta play will always kill probes, you don't know what you're talking about. There are no guarantees. That's the whole point of the game. Sometimes attacks work, and sometimes they get denied. ^This, a lot of what life does only works because his opponents are cutting corners in tournaments to get slight edges and wouldn't really work on ladder with average unit control.
So you're saying his build works in code S but not in mid-master? Please give him more credits before criticizing?
I'll answer this comments and the like puting Life's build at a question now that i've played like 20 games with it. First thing first, saying mutas are obvious when Z is not taking a third is plain false. Most protosses think you're going infestors. They cant know whether u're going infestor or muta before they either have a phoenix or an observer. And by then they're commited to a tech path, so their scouting is of little help. If you scout stargate with slow overlords, you are free to cancel the spire and go infestor and you'll be fine (but you dont have to do that). If you see an observer scouting you (and you couldnt deny it), you laugh as you know he'll have at best 3 stalkers and 3-4 sentries before you get there, which means a ton of probe kills.
Now, what if he goes stargate? I didnt link the vods of Code S because they're pay per view. But in one of those games the protoss did go blind stargate, and Life still won. Because Creator decided to go double stargate with air upgrades and Life stopped at 8 mutas. How can the protoss know you're not going all-in on mutas? Well, he does not know before he has enough to face your mutas straight up and actually fight them. Life could have keep massing mutas, waiting for an upgrade. What Life did when he saw stargate was simply sitting idle in his 3rd with his mutas. Now yes you can say Creator was played a fool. That's kind of the point of the build, to throw people of their comfort zone and increase the chance of mistakes drastically. The only build that would hard counter yours is one gate expand (no forge) directly into stargate without any additional gates, because then he could have like 4 phoenixes harassing your mineral line when your spire is not even done yet. But not a single protoss does that because they would die to any roach ling pressure.
I'll add that stargate opening that will keep massing phoenixes will never take a third, even against speedlings. That's why they go all-in on 2 base. Defend with 8 infestors, 3 spines and lings/roach and you're fine. Robo openings will give you more possibility to kill probes so you're fine anyway against those (usually I bust their third with infestors roaches).
I've had over 70% winrate in top master on Europe with this build. Guess what was my winrate in zvp before that? 42% :D And seriously, when i losed it's because i messed up huge time. Like not scouting proxy pylon or letting every infestors get caught out of position.
I think before Hots where mutas can regen, those kind of mutas build with a quick transition are the future of muta build in zvp. They force canons, they force a certain composition you can take advantage of, and they rule out the possility of immortal all-in, which I think is still the build with the most success against zergs at pro level. You could get probe kills, but that's not even necessary. Forcing a certain reaction is worth 1k/1K (spire and 8 mutas). You put the protoss in a lose-lose situation.
Also, saying 'the protoss is stupid, he should've done that and that" works in forums but not ingame. Ingame, you dont have the time to take a deep breath, calm down, analyse the situation rationally and come up with the solution. If you face the same protoss two or three times, he might come with an answer. And then you could go infestors.
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On January 30 2013 21:04 Natalya wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2013 19:30 Moonrisesc wrote:On January 28 2013 13:23 ineversmile wrote:On January 27 2013 23:06 Natalya wrote:
If you're interested in countering immortal all-in + playing muta zvp, definetly try ST.Life's recent muta build.
Standard 15 pool 16 hatch thing, get lings to push the scout back, but dont take your third, instead take a gas once you've you queen started and you've used every larva. Try to not let the protoss know u're 2 basing.
Make lair with first 100 gas and take a second gas as you start lair, then 3rd gas as your second gas is finishing, same for the 4rth gas.
Make spire then ling speed then 3rd. This hit SO early protoss will not even have 2 immortals when you attack them, so they're pretty much forced to defend and they're pretty screwed at that point.
Life transition after the first 8 mutas (no air upgrades) into infestor/ling/roach/hive/4rth. His mutas are a guarantee of getting a ton of probe kills and forcing protoss to go blink stalker heavy + cannons, which means mutas ALWAYS pay for themselves. Most protosses will 2 base all-in as a response once they have 3 canons each mineral line, not even trying to take a 3rd. And their all in is easily shut down because u'll be maxed on 70 drones and infestors roaches lings.
Since you're 2 basing, protoss allining would be a bad idea but if they do anything like gate agression, you can spine your natural, make roach warren and be fine (they cant push through spines and mutas will kill their mineral line soon enough). Replay/VODs seem necessary because whoever he was facing did a terrible job of scouting. Life does win a lot of games because a lot of pros cut corners with their scouting. If you don't take a third in front of the protoss's face, it's up to him to go out there and double-check your third. That's not very hard--all it takes is a zealot or two or zealot/stalker poke to check the third and then go home. Sometimes, the immo/sentry push comes after a +1 zealot pressure--the pressure is going to see no third and then immediately turn around and lead to a followup which acknowledges the potential for mutas. And you basically have to plan to go fast lair on 2base before you see whether it's a Robo or any other kind of tech, so if the toss doesn't do the immo-sentry push at all--even if he assumes you have a third--the other options for him are so much more dangerous for you. He could go stargate and have 4 phoenixes out by the time you have mutas. He could go twilight for a +2 blink-based composition for map control. He could go double forge mass-gate play--which is really coming into fashion now that armor and shield upgrades are infinitely better against infested terrans. You don't know what he's going to do. So basically, this build is gambling heavily on the protoss doing one specific 2-base push, not seeing your lack of a third base, and not preparing for a fairly obvious 2-base muta play. It's fine to use aggressive styles and to put on pressure, but if you're actually assuming 2-base muta play will always kill probes, you don't know what you're talking about. There are no guarantees. That's the whole point of the game. Sometimes attacks work, and sometimes they get denied. ^This, a lot of what life does only works because his opponents are cutting corners in tournaments to get slight edges and wouldn't really work on ladder with average unit control. So you're saying his build works in code S but not in mid-master? Please give him more credits before criticizing?
I think Life is the best zerg player on the planet. Is that enough credit for you? That doesn't change the fact that his builds are often calculated gambles based upon known opponents.
I'll answer this comments and the like puting Life's build at a question now that i've played like 20 games with it. First thing first, saying mutas are obvious when Z is not taking a third is plain false. Most protosses think you're going infestors. They cant know whether u're going infestor or muta before they either have a phoenix or an observer. And by then they're commited to a tech path, so their scouting is of little help. If you scout stargate with slow overlords, you are free to cancel the spire and go infestor and you'll be fine (but you dont have to do that). If you see an observer scouting you (and you couldnt deny it), you laugh as you know he'll have at best 3 stalkers and 3-4 sentries before you get there, which means a ton of probe kills.
I have no idea which protoss you talk to, but it's pretty simple: if the zerg is 2basing and a bust doesn't happen, it's probably going to be mutas. Sure, he could go infestors...but infestors don't fly over cliffs into the protoss's main and kill probes.
If the protoss only has 3 stalkers and 4 sentries when you hit him with mutas or infestors, it's mathematically proven that he has terrible macro.
Now, what if he goes stargate? I didnt link the vods of Code S because they're pay per view. But in one of those games the protoss did go blind stargate, and Life still won. Because Creator decided to go double stargate with air upgrades and Life stopped at 8 mutas. How can the protoss know you're not going all-in on mutas? Well, he does not know before he has enough to face your mutas straight up and actually fight them. Life could have keep massing mutas, waiting for an upgrade. What Life did when he saw stargate was simply sitting idle in his 3rd with his mutas. Now yes you can say Creator was played a fool. That's kind of the point of the build, to throw people of their comfort zone and increase the chance of mistakes drastically. The only build that would hard counter yours is one gate expand (no forge) directly into stargate without any additional gates, because then he could have like 4 phoenixes harassing your mineral line when your spire is not even done yet. But not a single protoss does that because they would die to any roach ling pressure.
I watched that game live. Cloud Kingdom, right? Creator screwed that up because he didn't know what he was doing. Sure, the aggression put Creator under some pressure and Creator buckled. However, if Creator kept his composure and used a proper counter to the mutas from SG, then he would have dominated Life. Personally, I don't think Creator is that well-versed in SG PvZ because the muta counter is pretty simple: Get a Beacon, get Range, and keep your Phoenixes alive while you do that.
I'll add that stargate opening that will keep massing phoenixes will never take a third, even against speedlings. That's why they go all-in on 2 base. Defend with 8 infestors, 3 spines and lings/roach and you're fine. Robo openings will give you more possibility to kill probes so you're fine anyway against those (usually I bust their third with infestors roaches).
Good luck getting 8 infestors on 4 gas after going for 8 mutas first and also spending enough money on units to deny a third and take your own.
I've had over 70% winrate in top master on Europe with this build. Guess what was my winrate in zvp before that? 42% :D And seriously, when i losed it's because i messed up huge time. Like not scouting proxy pylon or letting every infestors get caught out of position.
I don't care about rankings, I care about replays. You still have provided 0.
Also, saying 'the protoss is stupid, he should've done that and that" works in forums but not ingame. Ingame, you dont have the time to take a deep breath, calm down, analyse the situation rationally and come up with the solution. If you face the same protoss two or three times, he might come with an answer. The whole point of discussion threads is to talk about how to handle situations, so that when you're in a game you know what to do. Sure, if I have never seen a mutalisk in my life, I'm going to panic. But if I'm accustomed to getting ranged phoenixes, and if I've practiced that transition, then I don't have to think about it. I'll scout the spire and react instinctively.
Basically, what you're saying is that you're going to win a bunch of games against people who don't have practice responding to 2 base muta. That's fine, but don't extend it to more than it actually is. If you go up against someone who knows how to respond to 2base muta properly, then what happens?
And then you could go infestors.
On 2 base, after straight-teching mutas? Please. Replays or it didn't happen.
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I still believe in the 2 base muta build given how people play these days.
I hear a lot of people out here in the forums that say "Oh herp derp, 2 base zerg vs 2 base protoss" kind of reasoning and I'm really getting tired of it. Its just the order in which you take things, of course you would take a 3rd base behind a midgame
strategy! And the timing is really good, it really hits before protoss can build stalkers/blink. The zerg would take his 3rd, drone drone drone and make a response (spines + units if protoss goes all in or pathogen glands/evolution upgrades if he takes a 3rd)
No good protoss player would respond with pre-emptive stalkers unless he is going for a blink all-in. He would prefer gas in upgrades and more tech before taking his 3rd. There is a window to push after making these stalkers to deal a lot of damage with good scouting (to see if zerg is powering too much with few units) but with the pressure in a tournament, its almost always better to secure a 3rd, getting ready for a doom push in 15 to 17 minutes.
Remember, gas is the limiting factor for zerg here.
I really want to emphasize this statement 1 post above, the strength of forcing the protoss to go a tech path of lots of blink stalkers. Storm is a pretty standard response and also very powerful but there is a lot of things that a zerg can do behind the 8 mutas.
And the minor bonus 2 base muta can do: Kill the toss outright, picking off the sentries, reinforcing with more muta and overwhelming the stalkers.
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Diamond Z here. Before looking up builds for ZvP, I started doing this build naturally. It works wonders once you refine it and get used to the style. Thanks for the tips and tricks! I'll definitely be stacking this information with my current build. 
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On January 30 2013 21:04 Natalya wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2013 19:30 Moonrisesc wrote:On January 28 2013 13:23 ineversmile wrote:On January 27 2013 23:06 Natalya wrote:
If you're interested in countering immortal all-in + playing muta zvp, definetly try ST.Life's recent muta build.
Standard 15 pool 16 hatch thing, get lings to push the scout back, but dont take your third, instead take a gas once you've you queen started and you've used every larva. Try to not let the protoss know u're 2 basing.
Make lair with first 100 gas and take a second gas as you start lair, then 3rd gas as your second gas is finishing, same for the 4rth gas.
Make spire then ling speed then 3rd. This hit SO early protoss will not even have 2 immortals when you attack them, so they're pretty much forced to defend and they're pretty screwed at that point.
Life transition after the first 8 mutas (no air upgrades) into infestor/ling/roach/hive/4rth. His mutas are a guarantee of getting a ton of probe kills and forcing protoss to go blink stalker heavy + cannons, which means mutas ALWAYS pay for themselves. Most protosses will 2 base all-in as a response once they have 3 canons each mineral line, not even trying to take a 3rd. And their all in is easily shut down because u'll be maxed on 70 drones and infestors roaches lings.
Since you're 2 basing, protoss allining would be a bad idea but if they do anything like gate agression, you can spine your natural, make roach warren and be fine (they cant push through spines and mutas will kill their mineral line soon enough). Replay/VODs seem necessary because whoever he was facing did a terrible job of scouting. Life does win a lot of games because a lot of pros cut corners with their scouting. If you don't take a third in front of the protoss's face, it's up to him to go out there and double-check your third. That's not very hard--all it takes is a zealot or two or zealot/stalker poke to check the third and then go home. Sometimes, the immo/sentry push comes after a +1 zealot pressure--the pressure is going to see no third and then immediately turn around and lead to a followup which acknowledges the potential for mutas. And you basically have to plan to go fast lair on 2base before you see whether it's a Robo or any other kind of tech, so if the toss doesn't do the immo-sentry push at all--even if he assumes you have a third--the other options for him are so much more dangerous for you. He could go stargate and have 4 phoenixes out by the time you have mutas. He could go twilight for a +2 blink-based composition for map control. He could go double forge mass-gate play--which is really coming into fashion now that armor and shield upgrades are infinitely better against infested terrans. You don't know what he's going to do. So basically, this build is gambling heavily on the protoss doing one specific 2-base push, not seeing your lack of a third base, and not preparing for a fairly obvious 2-base muta play. It's fine to use aggressive styles and to put on pressure, but if you're actually assuming 2-base muta play will always kill probes, you don't know what you're talking about. There are no guarantees. That's the whole point of the game. Sometimes attacks work, and sometimes they get denied. ^This, a lot of what life does only works because his opponents are cutting corners in tournaments to get slight edges and wouldn't really work on ladder with average unit control. So you're saying his build works in code S but not in mid-master? Please give him more credits before criticizing?
Well part of understanding why Life is so successful in tourneys is realizing that in Code S it's a whole different ball game. The rules and mindset you take to ladder simply won't do in tourneys. That's why you see pros cut corners in and try to out-meta/mindgame the opponent. A build that works awesome against, say, MVP or Taeja works because they are designed for the player.
Thanks for the build, though OP. Now I can use mutas in all 3 matchups. wooooot. Now all I need to do is refine my muta control.
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On January 30 2013 21:51 ineversmile wrote:
I think Life is the best zerg player on the planet. Is that enough credit for you? That doesn't change the fact that his builds are often calculated gambles based upon known opponents.
He early pool in zvz against every top Zerg. He did it against DRG, Leenock, etc etc. That's not about betting he'll go hatch first then i'm far ahead. That's what people dont understand with players like Life. They're basically thinking : well, he's arguably #1 world at the moment, but it's all about gambling... It's so much not. By pulling unorthodox builds all the time he forced a certain patern of reaction that the takes advantage of.
Is it only about practice and about the other guy not knowing what to do? No it's not. Passive macro is not the only overall strong way to play. There's an inherent strength to those builds.
I have no idea which protoss you talk to, but it's pretty simple: if the zerg is 2basing and a bust doesn't happen, it's probably going to be mutas. Sure, he could go infestors...but infestors don't fly over cliffs into the protoss's main and kill probes.
If the protoss only has 3 stalkers and 4 sentries when you hit him with mutas or infestors, it's mathematically proven that he has terrible macro.
So? There is still two possibilities. He's not going to make stalkers if he doesnt not know if you go mutas or infestors. Since stalkers are not efficient against infestors. So he'll still be unprepared or he can make a call and that call could be that you're going muta. What if you go infestors? Not any protoss will make canons and research blinks if he didnt scout a muta or a spire. Nobody will do that. Playing according to such random calls would be basically throwing a dice.
Concerning protoss having few units, it was against top master going +1, robo before adding gates. Typical expand build. Those mutas just hit extremely early. You're starting the spire before even reaching full saturation on 2 base.
I watched that game live. Cloud Kingdom, right? Creator screwed that up because he didn't know what he was doing. Sure, the aggression put Creator under some pressure and Creator buckled. However, if Creator kept his composure and used a proper counter to the mutas from SG, then he would have dominated Life. Personally, I don't think Creator is that well-versed in SG PvZ because the muta counter is pretty simple: Get a Beacon, get Range, and keep your Phoenixes alive while you do that.
So you know how to deal with mutas better than creator... What you're proposing would be an even bigger investment than 2 stargate like Creator. And would fail even harder since in this build Z only make 8 mutas.
Good luck getting 8 infestors on 4 gas after going for 8 mutas first and also spending enough money on units to deny a third and take your own.
Basically it's more on 6 gas since you throw down your third before spire is done. And Life did go super uber greedy on infestor (cloud kingdom) : he had 8 infestor done or on the way. He had ling speed and +1 melee upgrading. No roach speed and no roach.
I don't care about rankings, I care about replays. You still have provided 0.
Well, Life's playing a top tier protoss and beating him badly with the build... what would my own replays show any better? lol I'm not advocating my build, i'm trying to understand everything that's behind Life's build.
Basically, what you're saying is that you're going to win a bunch of games against people who don't have practice responding to 2 base muta. That's fine, but don't extend it to more than it actually is. If you go up against someone who knows how to respond to 2base muta properly, then what happens?
Rank 1-4 master on Europe never saw a 2 base muta...
Ok, i'm explaining the rationale behind the build real quick : Toss ffe and see 2 base => he either goes robo or stargate (or gate all-in, but easily scouted/defended). He goes robo he's screwed because his obs arrive too late to not let the early muta do damage. He goes stargate, Z can cancel spire or sit still with 8 mutas letting the toss thinking he's going mass muta (not easy for protoss to scout at that time since he does not want to engage a superior amount of mutas).
Toss is in a bad spot no matter what happens. And it has little to nothing to do with the actual player screwing up. The problem comes from how the builds match against each other. Life found a nice timing where Protoss cant really be prepared for mutas after an ffe (basically their tech and their scouting comes too late). That's why it's a clever build (and btw I finally think it's not really viable against gateway first opening).
I think that a protoss going ffe is in a bad spot unless he blindly counter it (like 5 gate blink into expo). Basically it's answering the ffe by greedy tech (lair and spire BEFORE EVEN LING SPEED) and not by the traditional greedy droning. FFE, by putting down a nexus and a forge before any tech (gateway) allows both form of greed.
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I don't debate with people who don't provide replays.
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On January 31 2013 10:23 ineversmile wrote:
I don't debate with people who don't provide replays.
I dont get it. You saw Life play the build... What would you want more? You really think I would do anything better than Life? In which way would my replay be worth more than Life's vod??
On January 31 2013 10:10 Thienan567 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2013 21:04 Natalya wrote:On January 28 2013 19:30 Moonrisesc wrote:On January 28 2013 13:23 ineversmile wrote:On January 27 2013 23:06 Natalya wrote:
If you're interested in countering immortal all-in + playing muta zvp, definetly try ST.Life's recent muta build.
Standard 15 pool 16 hatch thing, get lings to push the scout back, but dont take your third, instead take a gas once you've you queen started and you've used every larva. Try to not let the protoss know u're 2 basing.
Make lair with first 100 gas and take a second gas as you start lair, then 3rd gas as your second gas is finishing, same for the 4rth gas.
Make spire then ling speed then 3rd. This hit SO early protoss will not even have 2 immortals when you attack them, so they're pretty much forced to defend and they're pretty screwed at that point.
Life transition after the first 8 mutas (no air upgrades) into infestor/ling/roach/hive/4rth. His mutas are a guarantee of getting a ton of probe kills and forcing protoss to go blink stalker heavy + cannons, which means mutas ALWAYS pay for themselves. Most protosses will 2 base all-in as a response once they have 3 canons each mineral line, not even trying to take a 3rd. And their all in is easily shut down because u'll be maxed on 70 drones and infestors roaches lings.
Since you're 2 basing, protoss allining would be a bad idea but if they do anything like gate agression, you can spine your natural, make roach warren and be fine (they cant push through spines and mutas will kill their mineral line soon enough). Replay/VODs seem necessary because whoever he was facing did a terrible job of scouting. Life does win a lot of games because a lot of pros cut corners with their scouting. If you don't take a third in front of the protoss's face, it's up to him to go out there and double-check your third. That's not very hard--all it takes is a zealot or two or zealot/stalker poke to check the third and then go home. Sometimes, the immo/sentry push comes after a +1 zealot pressure--the pressure is going to see no third and then immediately turn around and lead to a followup which acknowledges the potential for mutas. And you basically have to plan to go fast lair on 2base before you see whether it's a Robo or any other kind of tech, so if the toss doesn't do the immo-sentry push at all--even if he assumes you have a third--the other options for him are so much more dangerous for you. He could go stargate and have 4 phoenixes out by the time you have mutas. He could go twilight for a +2 blink-based composition for map control. He could go double forge mass-gate play--which is really coming into fashion now that armor and shield upgrades are infinitely better against infested terrans. You don't know what he's going to do. So basically, this build is gambling heavily on the protoss doing one specific 2-base push, not seeing your lack of a third base, and not preparing for a fairly obvious 2-base muta play. It's fine to use aggressive styles and to put on pressure, but if you're actually assuming 2-base muta play will always kill probes, you don't know what you're talking about. There are no guarantees. That's the whole point of the game. Sometimes attacks work, and sometimes they get denied. ^This, a lot of what life does only works because his opponents are cutting corners in tournaments to get slight edges and wouldn't really work on ladder with average unit control. So you're saying his build works in code S but not in mid-master? Please give him more credits before criticizing? Well part of understanding why Life is so successful in tourneys is realizing that in Code S it's a whole different ball game. The rules and mindset you take to ladder simply won't do in tourneys. That's why you see pros cut corners in and try to out-meta/mindgame the opponent. A build that works awesome against, say, MVP or Taeja works because they are designed for the player. Thanks for the build, though OP. Now I can use mutas in all 3 matchups. wooooot. Now all I need to do is refine my muta control.
I dont know if I agree with this. Every Code S player is macro oriented anyway, and most of their games are standard builds, like the one you see in ladder. You could prepare for an opponent like MKP because you know he never scout and like to CC first, so you could 10 pool to cancel his CC or something. As a terran I would not bother scouting DRG because I know he'll never early pool and rarely to never take a gas that can be seen by an scv. But I think that's about it for preparation against a certain opponent. I mean it's only about small details like this. I dont think you can make a entire game plan against Taeja. You can take advantage of a little thing or two in the early game, but apart from that I think you have to play Taeja as if he was a terran like any other and that's it.
I could be wrong ofc
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United States4883 Posts
On January 31 2013 10:26 Natalya wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2013 10:23 ineversmile wrote:
I don't debate with people who don't provide replays. I dont get it. You saw Life play the build... What would you want more? You really think I would do anything better than Life? In which way would my replay be worth more than Life's vod??
Dude, why are you avoiding it so much? Just post a replay already lol.
To make you feel better, I used to do nothing but 2-base muta all day in both ZvT and ZvP, and I kind of like the direction 2-base muta is going with FFE now being the standard. Back when it was gate expands, it was better to just go straight into roach/ling, but FFE has such a huge weakness to early mutas. I believe this works fairly well, but even with a fast geyser, the timing of the mutas is still 9:30, which should give any protoss player a chance to scout you with either a phoenix, hallucination, or observer and react.
As a protoss player, if zerg doesn't take a 3rd, I suspect:
1) Some kind of nydus or drop play
2) 2-base mutas
3) 2-base infestor/ling attack
I'll probably do a zealot/stalker poke to make sure shenanigans aren't going down, then send in another scout around 8:00 (either phoenix, hallucination, or observer) to get a good idea of what's going on. Stargate path = really easy solution, just build 4 phoenixes, put like 3 stalkers in each mineral line, and take your 3rd with zealot/templar. If your opponent keeps making mutas (like more than 10), grab the fleet beacon +upgrade and laugh because all of his mutas are going to die. Robo path = not as easy, but essentially I would just build 2 cannons in each mineral line, skip blink, and go straight into templar production.
I suspect a play like this is going to be stronger in HotS, as it's possible to insta-techswitch into SH/queen and start sieging your front wall. If you can force templar path from protoss and then switch into swarm hosts, protoss is basically never getting out of their base to take a 3rd.
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Yo. Thanks again, just got promoted to plat on a game where I beat a toss using this, yay =). Couple questions.
1. What do I do with my 5k minerals mid to late game and 0 gas? Am I doing something wrong? I've just been building mass mass spines. Anything better to be doing with minerals? My multi tasking isn't that good keep in mind (just being plat and all).
2. Thoughts on things to target. I guess the short answer probably is what ever you are able to freely pick off. I just want to get a solid list in my head since in the heat of battle I took out a dark shrine when in the reply I realized the cyber core was right there, and I prolly could have taken out his cyber core then killed him outright since he mainly had immortals and sentries when I first attacked. If I had to make a list I would say.
1. probes
2. cyber core
3. Forge
4. Assimilators
5. Twilight council
6. Dark shrine
7. pylons
What would you guys say?
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United States4883 Posts
On January 31 2013 12:35 dproberts55 wrote:
Yo. Thanks again, just got promoted to plat on a game where I beat a toss using this, yay =). Couple questions.
1. What do I do with my 5k minerals mid to late game and 0 gas? Am I doing something wrong? I've just been building mass mass spines. Anything better to be doing with minerals? My multi tasking isn't that good keep in mind (just being plat and all).
2. Thoughts on things to target. I guess the short answer probably is what ever you are able to freely pick off. I just want to get a solid list in my head since in the heat of battle I took out a dark shrine when in the reply I realized the cyber core was right there, and I prolly could have taken out his cyber core then killed him outright since he mainly had immortals and sentries when I first attacked. If I had to make a list I would say.
1. probes
2. cyber core
3. Forge
4. Assimilators
5. Twilight council
6. Dark shrine
7. pylons
What would you guys say?
1. hatches, drones, and spines. I honestly don't think it's a bad idea to mix in some lings until you start to get a huge muta flock. I'm not sure what the guide says (haven't ACTUALLY read it yet), but lings can be pretty good for runbys and harassment defense as long as you're continuing to take more bases and get more gases up.
2. Always target probes if you can. Nexuses are actually really great targets too; a dead nexus means protoss has about a minute of severely reduced income. Other than that, it's really just what happens to be around. If you have time to pick off a tech structure, you should do it; if not, just see if you can focus the pylon powering it, and this will at least delay it. Assimilators are BAD targets unless you're abusing the terrain to just slowly pick at it. They have too much HP for their cost and build time.
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On January 31 2013 12:35 dproberts55 wrote:
Yo. Thanks again, just got promoted to plat on a game where I beat a toss using this, yay =). Couple questions.
1. What do I do with my 5k minerals mid to late game and 0 gas? Am I doing something wrong? I've just been building mass mass spines. Anything better to be doing with minerals? My multi tasking isn't that good keep in mind (just being plat and all).
2. Thoughts on things to target. I guess the short answer probably is what ever you are able to freely pick off. I just want to get a solid list in my head since in the heat of battle I took out a dark shrine when in the reply I realized the cyber core was right there, and I prolly could have taken out his cyber core then killed him outright since he mainly had immortals and sentries when I first attacked. If I had to make a list I would say.
1. probes
2. cyber core
3. Forge
4. Assimilators
5. Twilight council
6. Dark shrine
7. pylons
What would you guys say?
1. probes (especially gas miners)
2. assimilators
3. artosis pylons
4. Cybercore
With these order, I also have a huge pack of lings in his 3rd to distract him.
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This should be even better in hots since your mutas just regen any damage taken by a storm or stalker volleys. I will try it there, thanks for the great read.
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On January 31 2013 12:35 dproberts55 wrote:
1. What do I do with my 5k minerals mid to late game and 0 gas? Am I doing something wrong? I've just been building mass mass spines. Anything better to be doing with minerals? My multi tasking isn't that good keep in mind (just being plat and all).
More hatches, extractors and drones => more gas => more mutas. As you are containing him with mutas, exposed bases don't matter as much.
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Don't forget to add a spore crawler; dt's can be a bitch.
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On January 31 2013 22:39 AdrianHealey wrote:
Don't forget to add a spore crawler; dt's can be a bitch.
Not to mention spores if the toss commits to stargate units. A bunch of spores can create a safe retreat point for mutas when ranged, +1 phoenixes chase them across the map.
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For me focus priority in baserace is
Templar archives / DT
Upgrading Forge
Artosis Pylons
Core
Probes and Nexi
Simple reasoning,
Eliminating threat of DTs is really nice, removing storm and archons makes winning an engagement easier if necessary.
Decent protoss will accept the threat of a baserace so will have probes on the map with bank to build something, hence killing their probes quickly wont necessarily help you.
From there you can proceed to try hunt down the nexi / pylons they make on the map, can always come back for the other stuff.
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Mutas are absolutely not good vs a twilight robo 3 gateway into 3rd base fast upgrades build (which, btw, works very well vs fast hive builds too due to fast upgrades)
You speak of how to defend protoss all-ins and early aggressions, but not how to fight vs a protoss who gets a fast 3rd off twilight, robo, 4 gates, and zealot, stalker and 6 sentries and simply macros vs you. base race won't work vs good players who keeps like 2 cannons, a few stalkers, and a templar each at two of the P bases and sack the other, while diligently multitasking attack and defense.
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EPT
