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On January 25 2013 03:29 Iksf wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2013 03:14 Alpina wrote:On January 20 2013 05:52 Iksf wrote:
2 Stargate. This is the hard counter to this style. Fortunately this build is normally awful, relatively unused and easy to scout. Just abandon this do a roach hydra push or something you’ll be fine.
Usually when i am facing 2 stargate phoenix, i am building spores and defending phoenixes for good several minutes while still trying to drone. In best case scenario they kill only 20 drones and when i build my roach + hydra army he already got 2 collossus, so it's pretty much pointless at this point. Am i doing something wrong? :/ Your probably not building enough spores Vs phoenix you just want to be pretty liberal with spores, their DPS is awful and only 1 spore per base barely gives protoss any more pause than no spores. Once your safe vs that you can proceed to drone up to about 65 then do a roach max, or add in some hydras if he is going voids.
Hmm sounds expensive, so that's minimum 6 spores and even then i'll prolly lose drones cause he can usually just tank spores with that many phoenixes.
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United Kingdom20306 Posts
On January 24 2013 21:44 MasterDrone wrote:
Saw Stephano use this style yesterday. Hard countered by Protoss with Archon & HT. Storm is scareful, and if your micro is not good, you end up losing most of mutas. And then you cannot keep him in his base and lose to his attack
I think stephano was playing gas before third hatch (or even spires before third hatch started) in at least some of his games though. That completely changes everything
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Playing vs this makes me want to kill myself
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Mass Mutas is absolutely insane in HOTS, mostly because there is very little risk to harassing with them (since you have the sick regen). I stormed an entire clump of mutalisks down to red hp, followed up immediately with a push and got crushed because the mutalisks were pretty much full hp once I got to my opponent's base. Once you get viper's its even better because it prevents stalkers from shooting, forcing you to blink away and expose all of your important units (like HT's, Archons, Collosus, Immortals).
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What do you do against archon toilet? Just don't get vortexed?
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On January 27 2013 00:55 schwza wrote:
What do you do against archon toilet? Just don't get vortexed?
There's absolutely no one they would be able to get to a suitable archon/mothership army against mass mutas. They would simply die.
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On January 27 2013 02:30 InfCereal wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2013 00:55 schwza wrote:
What do you do against archon toilet? Just don't get vortexed? There's absolutely no one they would be able to get to a suitable archon/mothership army against mass mutas. They would simply die.
Yea only maps iv seen protoss manage it are like entombed because its so good for defending. But even then by the time they cant get a mothership out for a while by which time theyr pretty reliant on a sick vortex. Good unit and map control can prevent this pretty easily though good use of a mothership is a good way for protoss to try get up a 4th
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I feel like double spire is a really nice addition to this style.
How do you feel about this?
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On January 24 2013 21:00 rEalGuapo wrote:
As a Protoss I have to say this style is a nightmare.
I never understood who not all Zergs do it, if I play against high master Protoss (I am high M EU too) I usually have like 50% winrate, when I play Zerg I use this style and basically never lost.
I am pretty sure that this is as broken as one thing can be (hence Protoss was promised the anti-Muta Tempest with HotS).
I really think the key is to never engage the Protoss main army. Constant harrasment will sooner or later lead to a lot of Probekills which will force Protoss into a 3Base all in. That means you will just get a million Spines and kill all his buildings.
I am pretty sure that only a Stargate opening provides the chance to win against it.
I have switched to HotS 2 weeks back and Mutas are way more popular there. If they stay this way anyone who follows this guide will get 100% winrate in ZvP outside of GM league or tournaments..
If anyone gets beaten using this strategy on high level I would be very interested in the replay!
But you should not lose because of your own mistakes. Obviously missing an inject here and there or having a few more Overmins than you would like is not that big a deal, however you should not throw away any Mutas or take a fight you lose.
Anyway OP, I hate you for making this guide, I also love you for doing it because I hope that someday Protoss will get a good unit vs Mutas. So far only Templars are good but the HotS Mutas just laugh at them with more Movespeed and Regeneration. -_-
Also, against Immortal/Sentry all-ins I would rather get the Spines at the top of the main ramp and go for a basetrade, you should either get up like 20 Spines and hold your main or Protoss will ignore your third and you can use those drones to get up 2 more hatches. Then at some point Protoss will be forced to split his army in order to hunt your buildings and protect his own at the same time. Usually you can just kill both armies ezpz.
In a basetrade you want to kill buildings in this order
1. Cybercore
2. Forge
3. Nexi
4. Pylons
5. Whatever, you already won!
Zergs stopped to do that because Protosses learned to mass blink stalkers with good ups with high templars. If Zerg commit heavily on mutas, this protoss composition counters pretty much anything the zerg will follow muta with. Storm > banelings, lings and roaches, feedback > infestors. If Zerg commits heavily on mutas, he cant have hive tech units. That's about it.
So minerals on probes and cannons, gas on stalkers and templars and you should be fine, because Zerg cant max on an army you should die to. It requires protoss to play really well.
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If you're interested in countering immortal all-in + playing muta zvp, definetly try ST.Life's recent muta build.
Standard 15 pool 16 hatch thing, get lings to push the scout back, but dont take your third, instead take a gas once you've you queen started and you've used every larva. Try to not let the protoss know u're 2 basing.
Make lair with first 100 gas and take a second gas as you start lair, then 3rd gas as your second gas is finishing, same for the 4rth gas.
Make spire then ling speed then 3rd. This hit SO early protoss will not even have 2 immortals when you attack them, so they're pretty much forced to defend and they're pretty screwed at that point.
Life transition after the first 8 mutas (no air upgrades) into infestor/ling/roach/hive/4rth. His mutas are a guarantee of getting a ton of probe kills and forcing protoss to go blink stalker heavy + cannons, which means mutas ALWAYS pay for themselves. Most protosses will 2 base all-in as a response once they have 3 canons each mineral line, not even trying to take a 3rd. And their all in is easily shut down because u'll be maxed on 70 drones and infestors roaches lings.
Since you're 2 basing, protoss allining would be a bad idea but if they do anything like gate agression, you can spine your natural, make roach warren and be fine (they cant push through spines and mutas will kill their mineral line soon enough).
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Im not a zerg, but hasnt protoss always had trouble with mass mutas?
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On January 27 2013 23:06 Natalya wrote:
If you're interested in countering immortal all-in + playing muta zvp, definetly try ST.Life's recent muta build.
Standard 15 pool 16 hatch thing, get lings to push the scout back, but dont take your third, instead take a gas once you've you queen started and you've used every larva. Try to not let the protoss know u're 2 basing.
Make lair with first 100 gas and take a second gas as you start lair, then 3rd gas as your second gas is finishing, same for the 4rth gas.
Make spire then ling speed then 3rd. This hit SO early protoss will not even have 2 immortals when you attack them, so they're pretty much forced to defend and they're pretty screwed at that point.
Life transition after the first 8 mutas (no air upgrades) into infestor/ling/roach/hive/4rth. His mutas are a guarantee of getting a ton of probe kills and forcing protoss to go blink stalker heavy + cannons, which means mutas ALWAYS pay for themselves. Most protosses will 2 base all-in as a response once they have 3 canons each mineral line, not even trying to take a 3rd. And their all in is easily shut down because u'll be maxed on 70 drones and infestors roaches lings.
Since you're 2 basing, protoss allining would be a bad idea but if they do anything like gate agression, you can spine your natural, make roach warren and be fine (they cant push through spines and mutas will kill their mineral line soon enough).
Protoss shouldnt be immortal sentry all inning vs 2 base zerg players anyway, the ones who are are basically build order monkeys. Well controlled 2 base infestor ling dominates immo sentry pretty hard and protoss have to worry about a large variety of 2 base all ins making their push weaker.
The problem with 2 base mutalisk is that the muta count doesnt ramp up particularly quickly, so if you dont do a good bit of damage with first wave your in a pretty bad spot. Also stargate is redic good vs 2 base mutalisk.
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On January 28 2013 00:18 Iksf wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2013 23:06 Natalya wrote:
If you're interested in countering immortal all-in + playing muta zvp, definetly try ST.Life's recent muta build.
Standard 15 pool 16 hatch thing, get lings to push the scout back, but dont take your third, instead take a gas once you've you queen started and you've used every larva. Try to not let the protoss know u're 2 basing.
Make lair with first 100 gas and take a second gas as you start lair, then 3rd gas as your second gas is finishing, same for the 4rth gas.
Make spire then ling speed then 3rd. This hit SO early protoss will not even have 2 immortals when you attack them, so they're pretty much forced to defend and they're pretty screwed at that point.
Life transition after the first 8 mutas (no air upgrades) into infestor/ling/roach/hive/4rth. His mutas are a guarantee of getting a ton of probe kills and forcing protoss to go blink stalker heavy + cannons, which means mutas ALWAYS pay for themselves. Most protosses will 2 base all-in as a response once they have 3 canons each mineral line, not even trying to take a 3rd. And their all in is easily shut down because u'll be maxed on 70 drones and infestors roaches lings.
Since you're 2 basing, protoss allining would be a bad idea but if they do anything like gate agression, you can spine your natural, make roach warren and be fine (they cant push through spines and mutas will kill their mineral line soon enough). Protoss shouldnt be immortal sentry all inning vs 2 base zerg players anyway, the ones who are are basically build order monkeys. Well controlled 2 base infestor ling dominates immo sentry pretty hard and protoss have to worry about a large variety of 2 base all ins making their push weaker. The problem with 2 base mutalisk is that the muta count doesnt ramp up particularly quickly, so if you dont do a good bit of damage with first wave your in a pretty bad spot. Also stargate is redic good vs 2 base mutalisk.
Well, he did address your last concern. Life just gets the 8 mutas out to do probe harassment and force the protoss into unfavorable composition while he builds up a bunch of ling/roach/infestor to go kill the heavy blink-stalker force.
if you force protoss to make cannons that is that many less units he will have to deal with your push at his natural that comes after the 8-9 mutas.
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United Kingdom20306 Posts
Make spire then ling speed then 3rd. This hit SO early protoss will not even have 2 immortals when you attack them
How are you hitting at like 7:40?
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On January 27 2013 23:06 Natalya wrote:
If you're interested in countering immortal all-in + playing muta zvp, definetly try ST.Life's recent muta build.
Standard 15 pool 16 hatch thing, get lings to push the scout back, but dont take your third, instead take a gas once you've you queen started and you've used every larva. Try to not let the protoss know u're 2 basing.
Make lair with first 100 gas and take a second gas as you start lair, then 3rd gas as your second gas is finishing, same for the 4rth gas.
Make spire then ling speed then 3rd. This hit SO early protoss will not even have 2 immortals when you attack them, so they're pretty much forced to defend and they're pretty screwed at that point.
Life transition after the first 8 mutas (no air upgrades) into infestor/ling/roach/hive/4rth. His mutas are a guarantee of getting a ton of probe kills and forcing protoss to go blink stalker heavy + cannons, which means mutas ALWAYS pay for themselves. Most protosses will 2 base all-in as a response once they have 3 canons each mineral line, not even trying to take a 3rd. And their all in is easily shut down because u'll be maxed on 70 drones and infestors roaches lings.
Since you're 2 basing, protoss allining would be a bad idea but if they do anything like gate agression, you can spine your natural, make roach warren and be fine (they cant push through spines and mutas will kill their mineral line soon enough).
Replay/VODs seem necessary because whoever he was facing did a terrible job of scouting. Life does win a lot of games because a lot of pros cut corners with their scouting.
If you don't take a third in front of the protoss's face, it's up to him to go out there and double-check your third. That's not very hard--all it takes is a zealot or two or zealot/stalker poke to check the third and then go home. Sometimes, the immo/sentry push comes after a +1 zealot pressure--the pressure is going to see no third and then immediately turn around and lead to a followup which acknowledges the potential for mutas.
And you basically have to plan to go fast lair on 2base before you see whether it's a Robo or any other kind of tech, so if the toss doesn't do the immo-sentry push at all--even if he assumes you have a third--the other options for him are so much more dangerous for you. He could go stargate and have 4 phoenixes out by the time you have mutas. He could go twilight for a +2 blink-based composition for map control. He could go double forge mass-gate play--which is really coming into fashion now that armor and shield upgrades are infinitely better against infested terrans. You don't know what he's going to do. So basically, this build is gambling heavily on the protoss doing one specific 2-base push, not seeing your lack of a third base, and not preparing for a fairly obvious 2-base muta play.
It's fine to use aggressive styles and to put on pressure, but if you're actually assuming 2-base muta play will always kill probes, you don't know what you're talking about. There are no guarantees. That's the whole point of the game. Sometimes attacks work, and sometimes they get denied.
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On January 28 2013 13:23 ineversmile wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2013 23:06 Natalya wrote:
If you're interested in countering immortal all-in + playing muta zvp, definetly try ST.Life's recent muta build.
Standard 15 pool 16 hatch thing, get lings to push the scout back, but dont take your third, instead take a gas once you've you queen started and you've used every larva. Try to not let the protoss know u're 2 basing.
Make lair with first 100 gas and take a second gas as you start lair, then 3rd gas as your second gas is finishing, same for the 4rth gas.
Make spire then ling speed then 3rd. This hit SO early protoss will not even have 2 immortals when you attack them, so they're pretty much forced to defend and they're pretty screwed at that point.
Life transition after the first 8 mutas (no air upgrades) into infestor/ling/roach/hive/4rth. His mutas are a guarantee of getting a ton of probe kills and forcing protoss to go blink stalker heavy + cannons, which means mutas ALWAYS pay for themselves. Most protosses will 2 base all-in as a response once they have 3 canons each mineral line, not even trying to take a 3rd. And their all in is easily shut down because u'll be maxed on 70 drones and infestors roaches lings.
Since you're 2 basing, protoss allining would be a bad idea but if they do anything like gate agression, you can spine your natural, make roach warren and be fine (they cant push through spines and mutas will kill their mineral line soon enough). Replay/VODs seem necessary because whoever he was facing did a terrible job of scouting. Life does win a lot of games because a lot of pros cut corners with their scouting. If you don't take a third in front of the protoss's face, it's up to him to go out there and double-check your third. That's not very hard--all it takes is a zealot or two or zealot/stalker poke to check the third and then go home. Sometimes, the immo/sentry push comes after a +1 zealot pressure--the pressure is going to see no third and then immediately turn around and lead to a followup which acknowledges the potential for mutas. And you basically have to plan to go fast lair on 2base before you see whether it's a Robo or any other kind of tech, so if the toss doesn't do the immo-sentry push at all--even if he assumes you have a third--the other options for him are so much more dangerous for you. He could go stargate and have 4 phoenixes out by the time you have mutas. He could go twilight for a +2 blink-based composition for map control. He could go double forge mass-gate play--which is really coming into fashion now that armor and shield upgrades are infinitely better against infested terrans. You don't know what he's going to do. So basically, this build is gambling heavily on the protoss doing one specific 2-base push, not seeing your lack of a third base, and not preparing for a fairly obvious 2-base muta play. It's fine to use aggressive styles and to put on pressure, but if you're actually assuming 2-base muta play will always kill probes, you don't know what you're talking about. There are no guarantees. That's the whole point of the game. Sometimes attacks work, and sometimes they get denied.
^This, a lot of what life does only works because his opponents are cutting corners in tournaments to get slight edges and wouldn't really work on ladder with average unit control.
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On January 28 2013 19:30 Moonrisesc wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2013 13:23 ineversmile wrote:On January 27 2013 23:06 Natalya wrote:
If you're interested in countering immortal all-in + playing muta zvp, definetly try ST.Life's recent muta build.
Standard 15 pool 16 hatch thing, get lings to push the scout back, but dont take your third, instead take a gas once you've you queen started and you've used every larva. Try to not let the protoss know u're 2 basing.
Make lair with first 100 gas and take a second gas as you start lair, then 3rd gas as your second gas is finishing, same for the 4rth gas.
Make spire then ling speed then 3rd. This hit SO early protoss will not even have 2 immortals when you attack them, so they're pretty much forced to defend and they're pretty screwed at that point.
Life transition after the first 8 mutas (no air upgrades) into infestor/ling/roach/hive/4rth. His mutas are a guarantee of getting a ton of probe kills and forcing protoss to go blink stalker heavy + cannons, which means mutas ALWAYS pay for themselves. Most protosses will 2 base all-in as a response once they have 3 canons each mineral line, not even trying to take a 3rd. And their all in is easily shut down because u'll be maxed on 70 drones and infestors roaches lings.
Since you're 2 basing, protoss allining would be a bad idea but if they do anything like gate agression, you can spine your natural, make roach warren and be fine (they cant push through spines and mutas will kill their mineral line soon enough). Replay/VODs seem necessary because whoever he was facing did a terrible job of scouting. Life does win a lot of games because a lot of pros cut corners with their scouting. If you don't take a third in front of the protoss's face, it's up to him to go out there and double-check your third. That's not very hard--all it takes is a zealot or two or zealot/stalker poke to check the third and then go home. Sometimes, the immo/sentry push comes after a +1 zealot pressure--the pressure is going to see no third and then immediately turn around and lead to a followup which acknowledges the potential for mutas. And you basically have to plan to go fast lair on 2base before you see whether it's a Robo or any other kind of tech, so if the toss doesn't do the immo-sentry push at all--even if he assumes you have a third--the other options for him are so much more dangerous for you. He could go stargate and have 4 phoenixes out by the time you have mutas. He could go twilight for a +2 blink-based composition for map control. He could go double forge mass-gate play--which is really coming into fashion now that armor and shield upgrades are infinitely better against infested terrans. You don't know what he's going to do. So basically, this build is gambling heavily on the protoss doing one specific 2-base push, not seeing your lack of a third base, and not preparing for a fairly obvious 2-base muta play. It's fine to use aggressive styles and to put on pressure, but if you're actually assuming 2-base muta play will always kill probes, you don't know what you're talking about. There are no guarantees. That's the whole point of the game. Sometimes attacks work, and sometimes they get denied. ^This, a lot of what life does only works because his opponents are cutting corners in tournaments to get slight edges and wouldn't really work on ladder with average unit control.
Yea a lot of Lifes stuff is pretty damn weird. Its funny watching how he reduces his opponents really refined builds into slop by throwing them into really weird situations under pressure.
Life is definitely the best zerg atm but for learning actual solid reliable styles hes the last person you should look at.
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Are you planning on posting more replays vs other types of protoss openings?
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I saw one mention this, but as it went unanswered ill repeat the question. I take for granted that muta upgrades shuld be started instantly, but how about a second spire at around 11-12min when the contain is established? If 2/1 should be done at about 14min a reasonably fast hive to start 3/2 would scale rediciously with the mutaball. Maybe even out-upgrade the stalkers. The later is obviously not going to happen vs double forge but the possibility is still there.
Nice guide. Came over this to late at night making me unable to play. Will dedicate my thoughts to this vs math in a procent ratio of hundred-to-zero tomorrow.
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On January 30 2013 07:56 rPontare wrote:
I saw one mention this, but as it went unanswered ill repeat the question. I take for granted that muta upgrades shuld be started instantly, but how about a second spire at around 11-12min when the contain is established? If 2/1 should be done at about 14min a reasonably fast hive to start 3/2 would scale rediciously with the mutaball. Maybe even out-upgrade the stalkers. The later is obviously not going to happen vs double forge but the possibility is still there.
Nice guide. Came over this to late at night making me unable to play. Will dedicate my thoughts to this vs math in a procent ratio of hundred-to-zero tomorrow.
Im not sure what I think about it. Obviously double ups are good for muta survival and all but you shouldnt be taking many direct fights. Il play with it see what I decide I like better.
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EPT
