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On December 04 2013 19:27 soulglider009 wrote:
This thread sickens me. Some people in here are out of control. Cheating is wrong, period. Cheaters should be punished (once proven guilty of course).
No, he shouldn't be disqualified without proof, but there should be no doubt that stream cheating is wrong. This looks like pretty good proof and the tourney admins should look into it.
If I leave my door unlocked, do I deserve to get robbed? If a woman wears sexy clothing and is walking home at night, does she deserve to get raped? If I left my bag at my table at a restaurant when I go to the bathroom and it gets stolen, is it my fault? Are these things inevitable? If caught, who should be blamed in these situations? The answer should be obvious...
YES you take precautions against the scumbags of the world, but NO it's not your fault. It's their fault.
It's pretty normal for tournament rules to not cover everything. When new situations arise, the admins need to make a decision on it. ESL made a poor decision here, and we should fight back or not watch.
I'm pretty sure no one here said that cheating isn't wrong and that cheaters shouldn't be punished.
The screenshot just shows the stream open. It doesn't prove he was stream cheating.
If you leave your door unlocked, yes it is your fault that you got robbed. There's a fucking reason why locks exist.
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Anyway, one thing is simple, if someone streamcheat, he is gaining unfair advantage and desereves DQ. I dont care about someone says thats streamer´s fault. The moment someone turns on his opponent stream it is cheating.
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On December 04 2013 19:49 Salazarz wrote:
So let's get this straight. A guy who falsely accused people of stream-cheating before claims a famous pro player who earns well over a hundred thousand dollars annually stream-cheated against him in a tourney that basically has peanuts for a prizepool, with his only proof being a screenshot that was uploaded 'by accident' by the said pro player (nvm that #1: the SS doesn't actually prove anything, and #2: is very convenient of an accident, don't you think?), and suddenly the said pro player is a horrible cheater who should be shunned and hated by the entire community? Eh...
Yes, he just coincidentally waited the same length of the stream delay with the stream open.
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On December 04 2013 19:49 Salazarz wrote:
So let's get this straight. A guy who falsely accused people of stream-cheating before claims a famous pro player who earns well over a hundred thousand dollars annually stream-cheated against him in a tourney that basically has peanuts for a prizepool, with his only proof being a screenshot that was uploaded 'by accident' by the said pro player (nvm that #1: the SS doesn't actually prove anything, and #2: is very convenient of an accident, don't you think?), and suddenly the said pro player is a horrible cheater who should be shunned and hated by the entire community? Eh...
Most of the talk in this thread is that "it's your fault if someone stream cheated you", which we should not be supporting. Obviously the legitimacy of the claim should be looked into. The problem is that people are on the other side and automatically attacking the accuser.
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So all of this could have been avoided with Marten either putting on a longer delay, or not streaming at all. Really that's where the blame ends, Diamond may have possibly been unsportsmanlike, but he broke not a single rule in the tournament.
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On December 04 2013 20:05 Zdrastochye wrote:
So all of this could have been avoided with Marten either putting on a longer delay, or not streaming at all. Really that's where the blame ends, Diamond may have possibly been unsportsmanlike, but he broke not a single rule in the tournament.
Are you fucking serious?
Are you seriously absolving the perpetrator because the victim could've prevented it? There's responsibility on the person streaming yeah of course, but that doesn't make the person stream cheating somehow innocent. That's fucking stupid.
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Russian Federation262 Posts
The 1st game was the most obvious reason to close your stream.
Im gonna ask Genja about this.
Kids are so annoying and bad mannered this days ;( meh
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On December 04 2013 20:07 RockIronrod wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 20:05 Zdrastochye wrote:
So all of this could have been avoided with Marten either putting on a longer delay, or not streaming at all. Really that's where the blame ends, Diamond may have possibly been unsportsmanlike, but he broke not a single rule in the tournament. Are you fucking serious? Are you seriously absolving the perpetrator because the victim could've prevented it? There's responsibility on the person streaming yeah of course, but that doesn't make the person stream cheating somehow innocent. That's fucking stupid.
If diamond was stream cheating, it was unsportsmanlike, but he didn't break a single rule in doing so. Everybody who streams hearthstone should know the ramifications of doing so, especially if there is something on the line. You'd need at minimum a 4 minute delay(assuming you take 30s a turn and he takes near 90) to really even begin to deter it.
The fact of the matter is that hearthstone, unlike action games, doesn't change rapidly. In SC2, if you have information on what your opponent did 3 minutes ago, it's helpful, but not gamebreaking for most people. Same goes for a lot of other games.
When you make yourself vulnerable, the onus isn't on the organization to ban everybody who might be streamcheating. Either put a 5+ minute delay while playing tournament matches or just turn the stream off. Not much else to say about it. The information you can get from knowing what your opponent had/has even 2 turns ago is absolutely massive against some decks.
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Ghosting is OBVIOUSLY cheating. The opponent went through the hassle of looking up your opponent's stream and then using it to gain an unfair advantage. Even if it's not against the rules, it is unethical and morally wrong.
1. As a previous poster said, the community benefits from streaming and is hurt by ghosting
2. Putting on more delay inhibits the viewer/streamer experience
3. Even if something isn't against the rules, it can still be wrong. Ghosting was always considered cheating in Starcraft lol
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On December 04 2013 19:49 Salazarz wrote:
So let's get this straight. A guy who falsely accused people of stream-cheating before claims a famous pro player who earns well over a hundred thousand dollars annually stream-cheated against him in a tourney that basically has peanuts for a prizepool, with his only proof being a screenshot that was uploaded 'by accident' by the said pro player (nvm that #1: the SS doesn't actually prove anything, and #2: is very convenient of an accident, don't you think?), and suddenly the said pro player is a horrible cheater who should be shunned and hated by the entire community? Eh...
First of all, where is the proof for him having falsely accused people before? Commenting like that without providing any other infos is pretty useless and just looks like you are personally attacking op.
As for this thread there is definitely proof for the pretty obvious streamcheating.. And how does it matter how much money the guy has or makes a year? That is a ridiculous argument. People have been cheating just to win for ages. Some of them rich some of them poor..
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On December 04 2013 19:59 RockIronrod wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 19:49 Salazarz wrote:
So let's get this straight. A guy who falsely accused people of stream-cheating before claims a famous pro player who earns well over a hundred thousand dollars annually stream-cheated against him in a tourney that basically has peanuts for a prizepool, with his only proof being a screenshot that was uploaded 'by accident' by the said pro player (nvm that #1: the SS doesn't actually prove anything, and #2: is very convenient of an accident, don't you think?), and suddenly the said pro player is a horrible cheater who should be shunned and hated by the entire community? Eh...
Yes, he just coincidentally waited the same length of the stream delay with the stream open.
And you know that how? Oh right, the guy who is obviously mad about losing (and falsely accused people in similar situation before...) told you so. Yes, that clearly proves everything, we better tell all the sponsors what a scumbag Diamondprox is.
Geez.
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On December 04 2013 07:04 martenJ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 06:14 TheDna wrote:
How do I explain this best?
Streaming is good, because it promotes these types of events and brings exposure to the game and organizations sposoring the events. Some events even REQUIRE you to stream 2P for example. So in some cases you wont be able to avoid it. There are even official streams.
Delay in Hearthstone does not really matter much. Unless you delay it to 30-60mins, but than interaction with audience isn't possible anymore. That makes streams less enjoyable obviously.
Why does even 15mins delay not matter much? Because there is no timelimit in custom games. This means people can delay each turn for a couple of minutes and still get a huge advantage by streamcheating/ghosting.
Promoting and not punishing ghosting/streamcheating is ridiculous. Because it would basically mean that everyone that wants to compete in these types of events pretty much has to do it. Its really silly to say that MartenJ was "pushing the information into Dimondprox face"..
And he wasnt even complaining until there was pretty much undeniable proof of the guy cheating him.. How could he even ignore that screenshot? Its pretty much your duty as an honest person to report a cheater to the admins.. good post. Basically its a trade-off. I wanna interact with my viewers as much as possible, and delay makes it much harder to do. I tried to avoid any QQ in OP (not sure if that worked out or not) and just state facts. I didn't even use the word cheat in the OP. As I said its unethical and unsportsmanlike imo, and there's no good definition of cheating anyway. Regarding the email the sponsors idea: I like it, I think I'll write an email to Riot games. Every LCS player gets a salary from Riot and I think they have pretty strict rules if they misbehave (get punished by the tribunal for example) I think Diamondprox has a rather poor reputation in the lol community anyway (i might be wrong about this, but he used to rage pretty hard iirc)
You have 0 proof that he actually stream cheated. He told you that he know you streamed and thats exactly what the picture shows. That he knows that you stream. I don't see him making a play based on your hand.
If you consider this behavior so OMG unethical and scumbagy (don't get me wrong, I think it is, but you have no proof), point can be made that user interaction on a stream is also "cheating". imagine someone on your stream chat is watching is stream and suggests plays based on that you actually take advice on a 50/50 situation and you go for the best play because the guy shifted the balance. Imagine you miss lethal and the users told you so, you missed a play and other factors external to the game at hand help you win. How can you call him cheater without proof and not even take a look in the mirror?
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yeah he sure had the stream open and did not look at it ...
there is no help anymore for people who believe that ...
Diamondprox is a scumbag and by telling something like how much money he makes playing LoL etc. makes him even more of a scumbag if he needs to cheat in such a tournament.
i wonder if the guy whom he did it to was someone else for example TLO, i guess the reactions would be totally different
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Also guys, let's just start sending out emails to sponsors because a 6 post user told us so.
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On December 04 2013 21:06 misirlou wrote:
Also guys, let's just start sending out emails to sponsors because a 6 post user told us so.
Someone else suggested that Op should send the email himself. And it wasn't op suggesting it to everyone else... It almost looks to me like Diamondprox mobilized his fanbase or something with these ridiculous arguments?
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In theory, he could innocently assume his opponent thinks of being so strong at Hearthstone that he wants to play with cards shown on purpose, for whatever personal training goals. Sure, that would be a completely retarded thing to even consider, but let's entertain the thought. However, he also lied about watching the stream, so no, he's not innocent at all.
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Yes yes, it's morally wrong and whatever but there is a reason not a single starcraft player streams online tournaments without delay. It's not like this is new... People should have had that figured out 3 years ago.
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Russian Federation262 Posts
Anyway, i think Diamond's sponsors must see this screenshot.
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One question to OP:
Why didnt you just close the stream or raise the delay threshold after the first game / while the first game was going?
It seems pants on head retarded to think someone to be streamcheating and taking exactly 0 measures to prevent it.
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I''m really shocked about the attitude in this thread, it is unbelievable that there are people who are defending the offender IN ANY WAY. Streamcheating is a disgusting act, beeing retarded enough to actually upload the proof by yourself is actually ridiculously funny.
Even though this probably will not have any official ramifications this person has lost my respect (Not that he gained it ever, i do not even know who he is)
EDIT: He was not even logged into his twitch account in order to hide his fraud .... no words
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EPT
