|
On December 06 2013 09:29 Megingjard wrote:
We're talking about a LoL pro player cheating in an amateur tournament and people focus on Mr Nobody being to blame for his mistake. That's like Bill Gates stealing someone's wallet and the newspapers writing 7 pages about the guy who left the car window open.
That analogy is just as bad as the rape one.
If the focus of the thread was to discuss the behavior of a pro League player, then the thread should have been posted in the appropriate subforum, where people who have a reason to care about his background could discuss the issue from that perspective.
In the context of this thread and forum, this is a discussion on streaming tournament games and stream cheating in general. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people posting in the thread never heard of the guy before, and merely glanced over the fact that he's a professional in a different game as it isn't something that's relevant to the discussion going on here.
|
As long as streaming is not outruled by the tournament organisators, you should refrain from calling it stream "cheating". When it is allowed by the admins, it's more like "clever use of stream mechanics".
|
I think you got some responsibility for this but he definitly should be punished as well.
ESL admin should think about what does the tournament stands for, the idea behind it and what kind of tournament reputation they want to established
|
On December 06 2013 19:49 UglyBastard wrote:
As long as streaming is not outruled by the tournament organisators, you should refrain from calling it stream "cheating". When it is allowed by the admins, it's more like "clever use of stream mechanics".
You must be joking.
|
On December 06 2013 19:50 ETisME wrote:
I think you got some responsibility for this but he definitly should be punished as well.
ESL admin should think about what does the tournament stands for, the idea behind it and what kind of tournament reputation they want to established
ESL admins needs to think about tournament rules, and no tournament rules have been broken here. Admins acting on their own subjective impulses is not a road any serious organization will take - especially not over streaming-related issues that they have no real way to control and police effectively.
If you punish one guy for stream cheating, you're going to get swarmed with a dozen new accusations next time you run a tournament, with evidence that will almost never be conclusive. You're going to have to make case by case decisions, and you're always going to look inconsistent and unfair in the judgement calls you make, and every now and then you're going to make a wrong choice and punish someone who didn't do anything wrong. And all that because some players decided to show tournament games on their personal stream?
There are only two real solutions here on the organizer's end - either ban players from streaming tournament games, or let them be responsible for protecting themselves from any disadvantages or risks associated with streaming (ie leave it as it is right now).
|
On December 06 2013 22:28 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2013 19:50 ETisME wrote:
I think you got some responsibility for this but he definitly should be punished as well.
ESL admin should think about what does the tournament stands for, the idea behind it and what kind of tournament reputation they want to established ESL admins needs to think about tournament rules, and no tournament rules have been broken here. Admins acting on their own subjective impulses is not a road any serious organization will take - especially not over streaming-related issues that they have no real way to control and police effectively. If you punish one guy for stream cheating, you're going to get swarmed with a dozen new accusations next time you run a tournament, with evidence that will almost never be conclusive. You're going to have to make case by case decisions, and you're always going to look inconsistent and unfair in the judgement calls you make, and every now and then you're going to make a wrong choice and punish someone who didn't do anything wrong. And all that because some players decided to show tournament games on their personal stream? There are only two real solutions here on the organizer's end - either ban players from streaming tournament games, or let them be responsible for protecting themselves from any disadvantages or risks associated with streaming (ie leave it as it is right now).
This is what it comes down to. Please no more rape analogies (or analogies of any other kind).
|
On December 06 2013 22:28 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2013 19:50 ETisME wrote:
I think you got some responsibility for this but he definitly should be punished as well.
ESL admin should think about what does the tournament stands for, the idea behind it and what kind of tournament reputation they want to established ESL admins needs to think about tournament rules, and no tournament rules have been broken here. Admins acting on their own subjective impulses is not a road any serious organization will take - especially not over streaming-related issues that they have no real way to control and police effectively. If you punish one guy for stream cheating, you're going to get swarmed with a dozen new accusations next time you run a tournament, with evidence that will almost never be conclusive. You're going to have to make case by case decisions, and you're always going to look inconsistent and unfair in the judgement calls you make, and every now and then you're going to make a wrong choice and punish someone who didn't do anything wrong. And all that because some players decided to show tournament games on their personal stream? There are only two real solutions here on the organizer's end - either ban players from streaming tournament games, or let them be responsible for protecting themselves from any disadvantages or risks associated with streaming (ie leave it as it is right now).
I understand what you're saying, but this game is not so different from Starcraft 2 in this sense. And I'm 99% sure streamcheating is banned there. I'm not saying they can properly enforce the rule, but it should be a rule regardless. If only to discourage it, and maybe to punish the very rare occasions where there is hard evidence.
|
Diamondprox has always been a dick but honestly it's your fault. You wouldn't show your hands using a mirror to your opponent when playing poker, so why do it here?
|
Most SC2 tournaments have rules against that and the ESL should definitely implement them in Hearthstone. Still not a single starcraft player would ever stream without delay in a tournament that involves money and no coverage is gonna stream an online tournament without delay. It even got to the point where big tournaments rather cast from replays. People learned that 3 years ago. There is always gonna be some guy trying to get an advantage especially when money is involved.
Don't know why we have start over from 0 in hearthstone. It's like everyone shut their eyes for the last 5 years. Learn from previous experience please instead of being surprised and unprepared for this. Both leagues and streamers.
|
On December 06 2013 19:45 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2013 09:29 Megingjard wrote:
We're talking about a LoL pro player cheating in an amateur tournament and people focus on Mr Nobody being to blame for his mistake. That's like Bill Gates stealing someone's wallet and the newspapers writing 7 pages about the guy who left the car window open. That analogy is just as bad as the rape one. If the focus of the thread was to discuss the behavior of a pro League player, then the thread should have been posted in the appropriate subforum, where people who have a reason to care about his background could discuss the issue from that perspective. In the context of this thread and forum, this is a discussion on streaming tournament games and stream cheating in general. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people posting in the thread never heard of the guy before, and merely glanced over the fact that he's a professional in a different game as it isn't something that's relevant to the discussion going on here.
No it's not. Keep saying OP made a mistake by streaming with no delay though, I'm not sure we got it yet.
|
Reading this thread really makes me think, if you play a ladder game of starcraft 2 and the opponent maphacks, are you to blame because you played the game and knew someone would be able to do it? 
|
On December 07 2013 01:06 Cephiro wrote:Reading this thread really makes me think, if you play a ladder game of starcraft 2 and the opponent maphacks, are you to blame because you played the game and knew someone would be able to do it?
its more like opening maphack for opponent and asking him not to use it, ye, its your fault
On December 05 2013 00:30 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 20:05 Zdrastochye wrote:
So all of this could have been avoided with Marten either putting on a longer delay, or not streaming at all. Really that's where the blame ends, Diamond may have possibly been unsportsmanlike, but he broke not a single rule in the tournament. Just because no rule exists because they don't think their rules through does not make it okay. If a tournament in StarCraft forgets to add "no maphack" to their rulebook does that suddenly make it ok to maphack? If the monopoly rulebook says nothing about stealing from the bank is it now acceptable to steal from the bank? Have some common fucking sense. The reaction from ESL is laughable and so are a lot of comments like yours in this thread. Some of these reactions are similar to imbeciles telling a raped girl not to wear a skirt next time. It's so absurd. Yes it could have been avoided that should not be the point of focus here at all.
Maphacking is forbidden by blizzard eula, monopoly book states bank rules and rape is a crime defined by law, this is hilarious
|
On December 07 2013 01:26 Artok wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2013 01:06 Cephiro wrote:Reading this thread really makes me think, if you play a ladder game of starcraft 2 and the opponent maphacks, are you to blame because you played the game and knew someone would be able to do it? its more like opening maphack for opponent and asking him not to use it, ye, its your fault Show nested quote +On December 05 2013 00:30 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:On December 04 2013 20:05 Zdrastochye wrote:
So all of this could have been avoided with Marten either putting on a longer delay, or not streaming at all. Really that's where the blame ends, Diamond may have possibly been unsportsmanlike, but he broke not a single rule in the tournament. Just because no rule exists because they don't think their rules through does not make it okay. If a tournament in StarCraft forgets to add "no maphack" to their rulebook does that suddenly make it ok to maphack? If the monopoly rulebook says nothing about stealing from the bank is it now acceptable to steal from the bank? Have some common fucking sense. The reaction from ESL is laughable and so are a lot of comments like yours in this thread. Some of these reactions are similar to imbeciles telling a raped girl not to wear a skirt next time. It's so absurd. Yes it could have been avoided that should not be the point of focus here at all. Maphacking is forbidden by blizzard eula, monopoly book states bank rules and rape is a crime defined by law, this is hilarious
Tournament organizers are not responsible for enforcing Blizzard's EULA. If organizers left out map hacking in the rules, the same argument could be made, "it is not against the rules, so they are not at fault". I guess in this case, if we were to go by ESL's rules, map hacking would fall under general "no cheating" rules, kind of like being able to see your opponent's hand and draws and hear their thought processes each turn. But according to ESL, this was not cheating.
Also, there is nothing in the monopoly rule book concerning stealing from the bank. So go ahead and steal! It's not against the rules after all.
|
Would be funny to see a similar thread where the ofender was a nobody and not some LoL Hero with thousands of fanboys.
|
On December 06 2013 19:49 UglyBastard wrote:
As long as streaming is not outruled by the tournament organisators, you should refrain from calling it stream "cheating". When it is allowed by the admins, it's more like "clever use of stream mechanics".
I think you are just bait trolling. But thats probably what a lot of cheaters think. They are being "clever" or something. I really never understood why people cheat, but it must be the same logic right?
|
On December 06 2013 04:21 Phisk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2013 00:30 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:On December 04 2013 20:05 Zdrastochye wrote:
So all of this could have been avoided with Marten either putting on a longer delay, or not streaming at all. Really that's where the blame ends, Diamond may have possibly been unsportsmanlike, but he broke not a single rule in the tournament. Just because no rule exists because they don't think their rules through does not make it okay. If a tournament in StarCraft forgets to add "no maphack" to their rulebook does that suddenly make it ok to maphack? If the monopoly rulebook says nothing about stealing from the bank is it now acceptable to steal from the bank? Have some common fucking sense. The reaction from ESL is laughable and so are a lot of comments like yours in this thread. Some of these reactions are similar to imbeciles telling a raped girl not to wear a skirt next time. It's so absurd. Yes it could have been avoided that should not be the point of focus here at all. Comparing something as trivial as stream ghosting to rape is insane and and incredibly disrespectful to real rape victims. I also assume people in this thread aren't saying its okay to "stream cheat" but rather that it could easily been prevented by martinJ. Its like when you run into the store to make a quick errand and skip locking your bike and someone steals it. While its not okay to steal it, the victim purposely put himself at risk and could easily have prevented it from happening. Nobody is defending diamond (well maybe a select few), just pointing out that streaming carries a certain risk and you can't be to surprised if someone takes advantage.
I don't think you understand the nature of the comparison. The comparison is the reactions of people blaming a victim, not the acts themselves. Should be pretty obvious unless you're actively looking for drama.
|
new twist in the story:
"Quarterfinals? please.)
We were sitting in skype with friends and one of us knew german, so he was translating all the shit he was talking about me and the things that were in his chat. And we were trolling and laughing so fucking loud that i dont really know, how our media director Michael was sleeping near to me xD"
http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/1sh3r0/gg_benq_diamond_ama/cdxig68
LOL.
not sure what to say about that. He uploaded the screenshot himself, and now hes like "we were trolling" seriously, that's your excuse?
|
"i watched your stream, but just for fun"
Where was this stated. You posted a wrong link.
|
On December 07 2013 21:11 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2013 04:21 Phisk wrote:On December 05 2013 00:30 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:On December 04 2013 20:05 Zdrastochye wrote:
So all of this could have been avoided with Marten either putting on a longer delay, or not streaming at all. Really that's where the blame ends, Diamond may have possibly been unsportsmanlike, but he broke not a single rule in the tournament. Just because no rule exists because they don't think their rules through does not make it okay. If a tournament in StarCraft forgets to add "no maphack" to their rulebook does that suddenly make it ok to maphack? If the monopoly rulebook says nothing about stealing from the bank is it now acceptable to steal from the bank? Have some common fucking sense. The reaction from ESL is laughable and so are a lot of comments like yours in this thread. Some of these reactions are similar to imbeciles telling a raped girl not to wear a skirt next time. It's so absurd. Yes it could have been avoided that should not be the point of focus here at all. Comparing something as trivial as stream ghosting to rape is insane and and incredibly disrespectful to real rape victims. I also assume people in this thread aren't saying its okay to "stream cheat" but rather that it could easily been prevented by martinJ. Its like when you run into the store to make a quick errand and skip locking your bike and someone steals it. While its not okay to steal it, the victim purposely put himself at risk and could easily have prevented it from happening. Nobody is defending diamond (well maybe a select few), just pointing out that streaming carries a certain risk and you can't be to surprised if someone takes advantage. I don't think you understand the nature of the comparison. The comparison is the reactions of people blaming a victim, not the acts themselves. Should be pretty obvious unless you're actively looking for drama.
The freedoms people have to give up to avoid getting raped are nowhere near as trivial and obvious as not streaming tournament games with insufficient delay, and rape is explicitly a crime while watching your opponent's stream isn't mentioned anywhere in the rules, as far as I have seen. And when your analogy doesn't match either the scale or nature of the situation, the analogy is of very little worth. That someone doesn't deserve blame, if victim of an actual and heinous crime because she made no other mistake than wanting to move about in public space unmolested, sheds very little light on this situation.
|
On December 10 2013 18:14 martenJ wrote:new twist in the story: "Quarterfinals? please.) We were sitting in skype with friends and one of us knew german, so he was translating all the shit he was talking about me and the things that were in his chat. And we were trolling and laughing so fucking loud that i dont really know, how our media director Michael was sleeping near to me xD" http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/1sh3r0/gg_benq_diamond_ama/cdxig68LOL. not sure what to say about that. He uploaded the screenshot himself, and now hes like "we were trolling" seriously, that's your excuse?
Is it possible you are so blinded by your rage that you dont see what he is saying there? He is implying that he uploaded a screenshot that made it look like he was ghosting on purpose, to take the piss out of you. And you took the bait hook, line and sinker.
Before when he was taking super long turns it was probably done to make it look super obvious and rile you up. Then they were translating everything you said and laughed their asses off. With this thread you have given them even more comedy material.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
