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On December 06 2013 01:13 Kenpark wrote:
One could argue that in a slow paced / turn based game like Hearthstone the op is actually cheating too by reading his own stream chat. They discuss the game, bounce ideas etc giving him an advantage over somebody who is just playing on his own.
You are the worst at logic.
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On December 06 2013 01:13 Kenpark wrote:
One could argue that in a slow paced / turn based game like Hearthstone the op is actually cheating too by reading his own stream chat. They discuss the game, bounce ideas etc giving him an advantage over somebody who is just playing on his own.
Sure, the stream chat helps a lot with a delay of 90s. The stream audience just needs to timewarp 90s ahead or guess the opponent play and the cards drawn correctly ...
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On December 05 2013 00:30 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 20:05 Zdrastochye wrote:
So all of this could have been avoided with Marten either putting on a longer delay, or not streaming at all. Really that's where the blame ends, Diamond may have possibly been unsportsmanlike, but he broke not a single rule in the tournament. Just because no rule exists because they don't think their rules through does not make it okay. If a tournament in StarCraft forgets to add "no maphack" to their rulebook does that suddenly make it ok to maphack? If the monopoly rulebook says nothing about stealing from the bank is it now acceptable to steal from the bank? Have some common fucking sense. The reaction from ESL is laughable and so are a lot of comments like yours in this thread. Some of these reactions are similar to imbeciles telling a raped girl not to wear a skirt next time. It's so absurd. Yes it could have been avoided that should not be the point of focus here at all.
Comparing something as trivial as stream ghosting to rape is insane and and incredibly disrespectful to real rape victims. I also assume people in this thread aren't saying its okay to "stream cheat" but rather that it could easily been prevented by martinJ. Its like when you run into the store to make a quick errand and skip locking your bike and someone steals it. While its not okay to steal it, the victim purposely put himself at risk and could easily have prevented it from happening. Nobody is defending diamond (well maybe a select few), just pointing out that streaming carries a certain risk and you can't be to surprised if someone takes advantage.
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On December 06 2013 04:21 Phisk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2013 00:30 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:On December 04 2013 20:05 Zdrastochye wrote:
So all of this could have been avoided with Marten either putting on a longer delay, or not streaming at all. Really that's where the blame ends, Diamond may have possibly been unsportsmanlike, but he broke not a single rule in the tournament. Just because no rule exists because they don't think their rules through does not make it okay. If a tournament in StarCraft forgets to add "no maphack" to their rulebook does that suddenly make it ok to maphack? If the monopoly rulebook says nothing about stealing from the bank is it now acceptable to steal from the bank? Have some common fucking sense. The reaction from ESL is laughable and so are a lot of comments like yours in this thread. Some of these reactions are similar to imbeciles telling a raped girl not to wear a skirt next time. It's so absurd. Yes it could have been avoided that should not be the point of focus here at all. Comparing something as trivial as stream ghosting to rape is insane and and incredibly disrespectful to real rape victims. I also assume people in this thread aren't saying its okay to "stream cheat" but rather that it could easily been prevented by martinJ. Its like when you run into the store to make a quick errand and skip locking your bike and someone steals it. While its not okay to steal it, the victim purposely put himself at risk and could easily have prevented it from happening. Nobody is defending diamond (well maybe a select few), just pointing out that streaming carries a certain risk and you can't be to surprised if someone takes advantage.
I dunno, the way I see it is, people know martinJ made a mistake. I don't think most people here disagree with each other, some people are just being vocal that they think the wrong person is being scrutinized. And I agree. So he fucked up by streaming, but what Diamond did was worse.
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Not reading any other posts but just saying it's your fault if you stream with insufficient delay playing a tournament. You can't really blame anyone else than yourself (not commenting on wether he was ghosting or not)!
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On December 06 2013 04:21 Phisk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2013 00:30 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:On December 04 2013 20:05 Zdrastochye wrote:
So all of this could have been avoided with Marten either putting on a longer delay, or not streaming at all. Really that's where the blame ends, Diamond may have possibly been unsportsmanlike, but he broke not a single rule in the tournament. Just because no rule exists because they don't think their rules through does not make it okay. If a tournament in StarCraft forgets to add "no maphack" to their rulebook does that suddenly make it ok to maphack? If the monopoly rulebook says nothing about stealing from the bank is it now acceptable to steal from the bank? Have some common fucking sense. The reaction from ESL is laughable and so are a lot of comments like yours in this thread. Some of these reactions are similar to imbeciles telling a raped girl not to wear a skirt next time. It's so absurd. Yes it could have been avoided that should not be the point of focus here at all. Comparing something as trivial as stream ghosting to rape is insane and and incredibly disrespectful to real rape victims. I also assume people in this thread aren't saying its okay to "stream cheat" but rather that it could easily been prevented by martinJ. Its like when you run into the store to make a quick errand and skip locking your bike and someone steals it. While its not okay to steal it, the victim purposely put himself at risk and could easily have prevented it from happening.
Magnitude doesn't actually change logic. Rape is obviously a more serious matter, but it's also a crime where it is very common, though deplorable, to blame the victim. Leaving your bike unlocked is actually a good example of this. It's still illegal, and you're still not in the wrong to have left it unlocked. Or not used a strong enough lock. Or gone to a store in that neighborhood. Or whatever. Sure, you did things that enabled the crime to happen, but it certainly isn't your fault. The victim is still the victim, the perpetrator is still the perpetrator, and the tournament organizers should punish him under the catch-all anti-cheat rule.
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On December 05 2013 00:30 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 20:05 Zdrastochye wrote:
So all of this could have been avoided with Marten either putting on a longer delay, or not streaming at all. Really that's where the blame ends, Diamond may have possibly been unsportsmanlike, but he broke not a single rule in the tournament. Just because no rule exists because they don't think their rules through does not make it okay. If a tournament in StarCraft forgets to add "no maphack" to their rulebook does that suddenly make it ok to maphack? If the monopoly rulebook says nothing about stealing from the bank is it now acceptable to steal from the bank? Have some common fucking sense. The reaction from ESL is laughable and so are a lot of comments like yours in this thread. Some of these reactions are similar to imbeciles telling a raped girl not to wear a skirt next time. It's so absurd. Yes it could have been avoided that should not be the point of focus here at all.
This is pretty much all that needs to be said here. So tired of reading these "Well there's no one to blame but yourself for having insufficient stream delay during a tournament" posts. Just because someone makes it possible to easily cheat does not make it okay to cheat, nor does it mean that the victim is the one at fault. It's shocking how many people aren't holding Diamondprox accountable just because his victim made it possible to easily cheat.
Robbing a house whose owners left its front door wide open is just as morally wrong as robbing a house with everything locked and a home-security system. Cheating on a test using answers that your teacher carelessly left on her desk is just as morally wrong as cheating on a test using answers that you painstakingly acquired through some complicated means. The analogies are endless.
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On December 06 2013 04:57 Yoav wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2013 04:21 Phisk wrote:On December 05 2013 00:30 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:On December 04 2013 20:05 Zdrastochye wrote:
So all of this could have been avoided with Marten either putting on a longer delay, or not streaming at all. Really that's where the blame ends, Diamond may have possibly been unsportsmanlike, but he broke not a single rule in the tournament. Just because no rule exists because they don't think their rules through does not make it okay. If a tournament in StarCraft forgets to add "no maphack" to their rulebook does that suddenly make it ok to maphack? If the monopoly rulebook says nothing about stealing from the bank is it now acceptable to steal from the bank? Have some common fucking sense. The reaction from ESL is laughable and so are a lot of comments like yours in this thread. Some of these reactions are similar to imbeciles telling a raped girl not to wear a skirt next time. It's so absurd. Yes it could have been avoided that should not be the point of focus here at all. Comparing something as trivial as stream ghosting to rape is insane and and incredibly disrespectful to real rape victims. I also assume people in this thread aren't saying its okay to "stream cheat" but rather that it could easily been prevented by martinJ. Its like when you run into the store to make a quick errand and skip locking your bike and someone steals it. While its not okay to steal it, the victim purposely put himself at risk and could easily have prevented it from happening. Magnitude doesn't actually change logic. Rape is obviously a more serious matter, but it's also a crime where it is very common, though deplorable, to blame the victim. Leaving your bike unlocked is actually a good example of this. It's still illegal, and you're still not in the wrong to have left it unlocked. Or not used a strong enough lock. Or gone to a store in that neighborhood. Or whatever. Sure, you did things that enabled the crime to happen, but it certainly isn't your fault. The victim is still the victim, the perpetrator is still the perpetrator, and the tournament organizers should punish him under the catch-all anti-cheat rule.
Blowing things completely out of proportion doesn't further the discussion in any way. Logic or not, its disrespectful and absurd. I agree the bike is a good example, thats why I used it. Just like you said, while the fault lies with the perpetrator, it could've easily been avoided which is the point most people in here are trying to make. If a son loses his expensive bike in that manner his father will blame him because the bike was expensive and the son was careless, even though the fault lies solely with the thief.
There's a swedish expression that goes "Tillfället gör boven", which translates into "opportunity makes the villain", which basically means that giving somebody an opportunity to commit a crime or break a rule can cause people who normally wouldn't actively seek these opportunities to still take it. It doesn't make it right to break the rules but if you want to be safe then you can't give people the opportunity to take advantage.
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On December 06 2013 04:57 Yoav wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2013 04:21 Phisk wrote:On December 05 2013 00:30 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:On December 04 2013 20:05 Zdrastochye wrote:
So all of this could have been avoided with Marten either putting on a longer delay, or not streaming at all. Really that's where the blame ends, Diamond may have possibly been unsportsmanlike, but he broke not a single rule in the tournament. Just because no rule exists because they don't think their rules through does not make it okay. If a tournament in StarCraft forgets to add "no maphack" to their rulebook does that suddenly make it ok to maphack? If the monopoly rulebook says nothing about stealing from the bank is it now acceptable to steal from the bank? Have some common fucking sense. The reaction from ESL is laughable and so are a lot of comments like yours in this thread. Some of these reactions are similar to imbeciles telling a raped girl not to wear a skirt next time. It's so absurd. Yes it could have been avoided that should not be the point of focus here at all. Comparing something as trivial as stream ghosting to rape is insane and and incredibly disrespectful to real rape victims. I also assume people in this thread aren't saying its okay to "stream cheat" but rather that it could easily been prevented by martinJ. Its like when you run into the store to make a quick errand and skip locking your bike and someone steals it. While its not okay to steal it, the victim purposely put himself at risk and could easily have prevented it from happening. Magnitude doesn't actually change logic. Rape is obviously a more serious matter, but it's also a crime where it is very common, though deplorable, to blame the victim. Leaving your bike unlocked is actually a good example of this. It's still illegal, and you're still not in the wrong to have left it unlocked. Or not used a strong enough lock. Or gone to a store in that neighborhood. Or whatever. Sure, you did things that enabled the crime to happen, but it certainly isn't your fault. The victim is still the victim, the perpetrator is still the perpetrator, and the tournament organizers should punish him under the catch-all anti-cheat rule.
Then lets stay with the logic thingie: Girls cant shut down rape by dressing another way. Streamcheating can be shut down by not streaming or pressing the delay up to 15 minutes.
I do not say that Diamond was acting correctly and / or should not be punished. OP could have just easily prevent all that, or shut it down after the 1st game at least. This is not finger pointing or whatever, just a simple fact.
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On December 06 2013 01:13 Kenpark wrote:
One could argue that in a slow paced / turn based game like Hearthstone the op is actually cheating too by reading his own stream chat. They discuss the game, bounce ideas etc giving him an advantage over somebody who is just playing on his own.
This is standard in card games...
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all these real life analogy to a VIDEO GAME is kind of laughable...
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I think it is fair to disqualify DiamondProx. What other intent would he have for opening the stream other than cheating? We already established he had the stream open. The rules don't allow for cheating... Seems like a rather easy case.
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Just as a comparison, what do you think would of happened if diamondprox would of done this in a professional lol game with money on the line? I'd be willing to bet he'd be out of the team preeetty fast, and the team facing punishment as well.
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I don't think a tournament organization is ever going to be so quick to regulate something so far outside the realm of their control such as player streaming. Even if they did act, the cleanest and most reasonable thing for them to do would probably be to ban streaming of tournament games altogether and ban competitors that stream their own games. Which I can't imagine is something that anybody wants to see happen.
Streaming (as in a personal stream) is not the integral part of playing the game or competing in a tournament. It is something that players choose to do on the side, and as such something that is their own responsibility to manage and control the risks of. You are not entitled to a risk-free personal stream of your tournament games, and you are not entitled to the tournament organizer's protection of your personal stream.
Nobody in this thread is trying to ignore the fact that the guy who stream cheated is an absolute dick of a player. But people who blame the OP for what happened are correct imho. If anything, it was the stream that potentially endangered the integrity of the tournament in the first place - he hurt both himself and the competition, and this should be a lesson for him to learn from.
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On December 06 2013 06:46 Kisstafer wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2013 01:13 Kenpark wrote:
One could argue that in a slow paced / turn based game like Hearthstone the op is actually cheating too by reading his own stream chat. They discuss the game, bounce ideas etc giving him an advantage over somebody who is just playing on his own. This is standard in card games...
Not really ... Except in team tournament in magic, I don't see any tournament where it's standard to have all your good friends behind you discussing every moves.
The other "bad" thing in HS tournament right now is that there is no time limit, so people can think for ages, thus decreasing the value of the "think fast" skill, which is important in tcg.
That being said, you can't really afford to ban players because they're streaming or they're on skype, and I don't know if there will be a lot of offline tournament in hearthstone, so we have to do with what we have 
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We're talking about a LoL pro player cheating in an amateur tournament and people focus on Mr Nobody being to blame for his mistake. That's like Bill Gates stealing someone's wallet and the newspapers writing 7 pages about the guy who left the car window open. That's how unreal and stupid this whole discussion is.
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i thought LoL players in teams arent allowed to stream hearthstone?
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On December 06 2013 10:02 Denzil wrote:
i thought LoL players in teams arent allowed to stream hearthstone?
LMAO. Diamondprox wasn't the one streaming. But as far as I know, you can stream Hearthstone as long as it is what is advertised on your stream (ie. You can't have your stream titled "League of Legends" or be affiliated with League of Legends, and then play another game while doing so). I'm not 100% sure about that though.
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On December 06 2013 04:21 Phisk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2013 00:30 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:On December 04 2013 20:05 Zdrastochye wrote:
So all of this could have been avoided with Marten either putting on a longer delay, or not streaming at all. Really that's where the blame ends, Diamond may have possibly been unsportsmanlike, but he broke not a single rule in the tournament. Just because no rule exists because they don't think their rules through does not make it okay. If a tournament in StarCraft forgets to add "no maphack" to their rulebook does that suddenly make it ok to maphack? If the monopoly rulebook says nothing about stealing from the bank is it now acceptable to steal from the bank? Have some common fucking sense. The reaction from ESL is laughable and so are a lot of comments like yours in this thread. Some of these reactions are similar to imbeciles telling a raped girl not to wear a skirt next time. It's so absurd. Yes it could have been avoided that should not be the point of focus here at all. Comparing something as trivial as stream ghosting to rape is insane and and incredibly disrespectful to real rape victims. I also assume people in this thread aren't saying its okay to "stream cheat" but rather that it could easily been prevented by martinJ. Its like when you run into the store to make a quick errand and skip locking your bike and someone steals it. While its not okay to steal it, the victim purposely put himself at risk and could easily have prevented it from happening. Nobody is defending diamond (well maybe a select few), just pointing out that streaming carries a certain risk and you can't be to surprised if someone takes advantage.
As someone who had stuff stolen from me what you say is totally true. When it happens though it still hurts or at least bothers you a lot even if it's partially your fault for not taking the simple precaution. I'm not surprised the OP wanted to talk about it.
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EPT
