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Hi,
Sunday evening I was playing and streaming the ESL-cup.
I played mostly the Warlock aggro deck that everyone seems to be playing on ladder atm, but also had some other decks prepared.
I won my first two rounds, and then decided to restart the stream with 90 seconds delay on it.
I won four more rounds and then faced Diamondprox in the QFs. I was really, really excited to play a play a big e-sports celebrity (he's a Pro LoL player for team Gambit Gaming for those of you who don't know) in a big tournament like this.
Top 3 in this tournament get Razer gear, so this match is even more important.
I quickly double checked his ESL-profile and he has tons of tournaments wins with his LoL team on it, so it's the real Diamondprox!
I started game 1 with the Warlock deck again and he played Druid, a deck that did not expect. And then something weird happened, he played really slowly. Every single turn, I was like wtf? is he in a LoL game or what's going on?
Then I remembered that I had 90 seconds delay and the maximum time for a turn in Hearthstone is also 90 seconds. So if he's watching my stream, he has to play really slowly to gain maximum information.
I lost an extremely close game one, where I might have misplayed in this situation. I can just go for the kill here, but if he gets commander with the shield with Sylvanas I'm just dead.
So after the game I ask him if hes watching my stream, and he answers: "I know you're streaming but I'm not watching it"
Game two is also really close, and again he's playing really slowly. He even used his Coin on turn one and then took almost maximum time for turn two. Again, it doesn't make any sense to play this slowly if hes not watching my stream. If he's watching, it makes a lot of sense.
I won game two and decided to play Freshgaming's Mage Burn that he won TL Open #2 with in game three.
That was a pretty bad decision, i modified my deck on stream and challenged him, but he didn't accept the challenge right away.
After some time he did and he crushed me with Druid again. Game wasn't close at all and he played way quicker than before.
I raffled away a key and closed the stream. I tried to sleep, but couldn't because I had to think about the match vs Diamondprox and if he was ghosting me or not.
I restarted the PC checked emails and saw a twitch PM a viewer sent me. He had a look at the screenshots Diamond uploaded. For some reason for the SF match he uploaded the screenshot vs me by mistake.
http://imgur.com/O94ryqe
As you can see he's watching my stream in the background and he's been doing that for quite a while already, because there wasn't much chatting going on and the chat is full.
I was shocked!
He makes a lot of money playing League and has a sponsor so he can't even use the Razer gear. Why would he ghost me?
I had proof though.
I made a reddit post that quickly got deleted, because of the witch hunt rule. I removed all personal data and re-posted it, it got removed it again because (quote Mod) "now it's just a QQ post, without any information"
I had one more shot though! The ESL admins should care about cheating in their tournaments right? I wrote a match protest with all the relevant information. It got closed within an hour.
"Hello martenJ, hello Diamondprox,
There is nothing we can do about it. The streaming is up to anyone to do it. Maybe next time your best call is not stream it or give it a bigger delay."
thx admin :/
And, yes I learned my lesson. more delay next time
I wanna spread the word about this incident within the community. Any help appreciated.
TL;DR
- I stream ESL cup with 90 seconds delay
- in the QF i play Diamondprox
- He plays super slow in trivial spots
- I get suspicious
- I lose
- He uploads a screenshot vs me for his SF match
- The screenshots proofs that he was ghosting me
- reddit doesn't allow a discussion about it
- ESL admin says it's my fault
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There is a reason a witch hunt is prohibited on reddit.
While it was a bad move/unfair play from diamondprox, it wasn't illegal by the rules, and it IS your fault for streaming tournament games without sufficient delay.
As sad as it is for you, the ESL admins are right.
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It is unethical imo and I expect better sportsmanship, especially from a pro player like him
and regarding the witchhunt rules: yeah, i see why the have them. In this case i have proof though, it's not like its just random rumors
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In my mind, stream-cheating with proof should be dealt with as any instance of cheating. (Generally people aren't stupid enough to provide a screenshot of their proof.) The fact that ESL has not mentioned this in their streaming rules shows a major oversight. Now I know that ESL winners are probably just stream-cheaters, and pay no attention to them.
Secondly, this is especially pertinent in Hearthstone where the stream delay would need to be considerable. It's not just 1 turn, because you generally keep many cards for a long time, and it would be of crucial importance for your opponent to know if you're nurturing a pyroblast, or a consecrate, etc. This makes streaming games a great deal more difficult - you might not be able to cast any online games of hearthstone because both players can watch the cast and get invaluable information that wouldn't otherwise be available.
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If you play with your cards faced to the opponent while expecting to make money and to win is just retarded. Maybe its not good sportsmanship, but its definitely not cheating. Also a mod should close this topic imo.
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On December 03 2013 20:43 gingerfluffmuff wrote:
If you play with your cards faced to the opponent while expecting to make money and to win is just retarded. Maybe its not good sportsmanship, but its definitely not cheating. Also a mod should close this topic imo.
This. Its like you play a poker tournament with your pocket cards face up and then complain sb looked at them.
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so if you ever do anything to put yourself in a position to be victimised, the blame is 100% on you when it actually happens?
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On December 03 2013 20:50 martenJ wrote:
so if you ever do anything to put yourself in a position to be victimised, the blame is 100% on you when it actually happens?
I am really sorry for you if this is your main argument/answer. I guess just do sports or other related competitive stuff, maybe one day you will see.
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On December 03 2013 20:07 Keniji wrote:
There is a reason a witch hunt is prohibited on reddit.
While it was a bad move/unfair play from diamondprox, it wasn't illegal by the rules, and it IS your fault for streaming tournament games without sufficient delay.
As sad as it is for you, the ESL admins are right.
you are sort of confusing the definiton of witchhunting.witchhunting by definition means you are falsely accusing somebody of something without any evidence and try to turn people against him.when evidence is presented it is no longer a witch hunt.it is justice.the op has evidence of the dude stream cheating.albeit it is his fault for playing card games with stream on but still a guy such as diamond prox should know better.
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It would be great if you stopped your stupid whining martenJ, especially since its not the first time that you act that way. The last tournament I watched it was also you, who accused someone of "streamcheating" and got mad like some 12yr old (which was live on stream too, realy funny). If you decide to start a stream while you play a tournament, its YOUR fault and yours alone if someone watches this stream and gathers information from it. Don't want this? Stop streaming or cover your hand with an overlay.
Maybe next time when you play the ESL tournament for the thousand dollar prize pool (read: 3 months of ESL "Premium Membership") you will not have to deal with this then.
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MartenJ has only himself to blame in this case, however it's a shame that someone has to sink to such a low level as to streamcheat, especially a professional player.
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It's really silly, how blatant and ultimately foolish diamondprox behaved in this case.
Whether or not his behaviour is against the rules is really besides the point here; if he has any sportsmanship in him he should have his prizes awarded to the 4th place finisher and martenj.
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I think the ESL should take steps against this, Obviously its in their interest that people can watch the tournament, but that is only possible if players streams themselves. Even with 5 minutes delay you can still get an advantage from knowing some of your opponents cards.
In this case marten should have put a longer delay. But its really bad sportsmanship to abuse it and certainly someone who is a professional player should know better than that.
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To be honest, as someone as said, even with a bigger delay, it'd still be a problem, since even checking cards from a turn or two ago can be a great advantage.
However, if you're playing and you think your opponent is ghosting...why not temporaly turn down the stream? I know it can be a problem for viewers, but at least you avoid setting yourself up for these situations.
Edit: format (damn phone)
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Uh, I disagree with what seems to be the majority here. It is pretty clearly unethical to take advantage of someone streaming to get information about their hand.
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This is an interesting thought of discussion for whenever the game does get spectator mode and games mandatory streamed.
I do think its pretty disturbing how they didn't do anything about it. Since its frowned upon by everyone. Having that type of evidence should have been quite damning to him. Perhaps its just because he is who he is.
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90 seconds delay
lol
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So after the game I ask him if hes watching my stream, and he answers: "I know you're streaming but I'm not watching it"
For some reason for the SF match he uploaded the screenshot vs me by mistake. http://imgur.com/O94ryqeAs you can see he's watching my stream in the background and he's been doing that for quite a while already, because there wasn't much chatting going on and the chat is full.
Based on this, Diamondprox lied straight to you. Apart from that, we could argue he used whatever means were not forbidden by the rules in the situation (which is ESL's and yours fault). But he also outright lied about it. Well, lying isn't forbidden either, but that's what I found to be his lowest point in this case. ESL better change rules, perhaps require some fixed substantial delay by all players to allow for better viewing/casting as well.
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Before people start witchhunting too much we should remember that it is possible that he only had the chat open. I remember at least it being the case a few years back in sc2 where a player was watching his opponents stream before being matched up against him. Once he realized he was playing the streamer he was watching he paused the stream, which leaves the chat open. The other viewers soon spotted him in the list of viewers watching the stream and accused him of streamcheating, while he had just forgotten to close the chat. Twitch admins then later came in and confirmed that he was only in the chat and was not watching any stream.
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51456 Posts
Like you said it's more of a lol this LOL player who makes good money from LoL cheated to beat me in Hearthstone, haha. That is what you should be feeling, and you also BEAT him whilst he was cheating too another, lol i beat a cheater xD. If he wants to win so badly he cheats so be it, it is quite funny.
You learnt your lesson, whilst TL Hearthstone section has figured out Diamondprox does anything he can to win, even at Hearthstone.
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If you stream competitive play in any game, sooner or later you WILL be ghosted. Get over it and set a delay that's closer to 10 minutes than it is to 10 seconds
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Pro player should know better.
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Sucks that this happened to you. Yeah, I would say if you care about winning, just don't stream in the future, or with a HUGE delay. Sucks though... really unethical 
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Wow DiamondProx. What a fucking loser.
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Its crazy that people here are suggesting that its his fault for streaming. Also its hardly whining when you have hard evidence as in a screenshot that someone is streamcheating.. I definitely think its ESL responsibility if there is evidence like in this case to take action against the person. I mean ESL sc2 cups were streamed live for a very long time.. Suggesting that its the streamers fault that people are cheating is blowing my mind. Behaviour like this is almost advertising that streamcheating is totally ok.. Because if there is no penality for ghosting in ESL cups it sends the message to kids that it is a valid option. I can already see them arguing "even a LoL pro is doing it, and ESL said its ok"..
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Fault of all 4 parties. MartenJ for streaming, DiamondProx for streamcheating, reddit for always closing threads without paying attention/reading it and ESL for not giving a fuck that someone cheated.
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Send a long winded email to his sponsors. That should get some attention. Also I wont be watching anything ESL related now, because obviously its run by morons.
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On December 04 2013 03:30 ReketSomething wrote:
Fault of all 4 parties. MartenJ for streaming, DiamondProx for streamcheating, reddit for always closing threads without paying attention/reading it and ESL for not giving a fuck that someone cheated.
its not like he used maphack tho, why would ESL have to react when he can just not stream next time
pretty terrible from superior moba gamer tho
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On December 04 2013 03:24 TheDna wrote:
Its crazy that people here are suggesting that its his fault for streaming. Also its hardly whining when you have hard evidence as in a screenshot that someone is streamcheating.. I definitely think its ESL responsibility if there is evidence like in this case to take action against the person. I mean ESL sc2 cups were streamed live for a very long time.. Suggesting that its the streamers fault that people are cheating is blowing my mind. Behaviour like this is almost advertising that streamcheating is totally ok.. Because if there is no penality for ghosting in ESL cups it sends the message to kids that it is a valid option. I can already see them arguing "even a LoL pro is doing it, and ESL said its ok"..
I thought this thread would die quickly, cause streaming without significant delay (15min or so) in such an enviroment is imo stupid. Also in general there is no way to proof ghosting (except when he delivers it himself lol). Calling it cheating is just wrong, why should someone not look when its 1 click away?
Imo the best solution for such events would be to start 15min before the official (announced) time and use this time as delay. Make this a standard, so every player knows about it. I guess that kills viewer interaction though, but you cant have everything.
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On December 04 2013 03:43 gingerfluffmuff wrote:
Calling it cheating is just wrong, why should someone not look when its 1 click away?
This is your argument? You do know a lot of cheats in games are just a click away?
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On December 04 2013 03:42 teddyoojo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 03:30 ReketSomething wrote:
Fault of all 4 parties. MartenJ for streaming, DiamondProx for streamcheating, reddit for always closing threads without paying attention/reading it and ESL for not giving a fuck that someone cheated. its not like he used maphack tho, why would ESL have to react when he can just not stream next time pretty terrible from superior moba gamer tho
Its exactly like using maphack. There is no difference, just in the risk of getting caught.. Cheating is cheating, there is no difference. Cheating should be always punished the exactly same way specially if there is evidence like this.
I think the suggestion to email his sponsor is very good. That will hopefully have some consequences for this scumbag.
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On December 04 2013 03:46 willoc wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 03:43 gingerfluffmuff wrote:
Calling it cheating is just wrong, why should someone not look when its 1 click away?
This is your argument? You do know a lot of cheats in games are just a click away?
Idk, i just consider streaming something = to make something public. When i play rock paper scissor i wouldnt blame my opponent for winning when i would announce every move i make. (hm, maybe not a good example)
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The guy may not be a "cheater", but he certainly is a liar (he lied about looking at the stream), and it certainly was unsportsmanlike.
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On December 04 2013 03:55 SOB_Maj_Brian wrote:
The guy may not be a "cheater", but he certainly is a liar (he lied about looking at the stream), and it certainly was unsportsmanlike.
That's an assumption. He never denied he had the stream on. He just said he wasn't watching it.
Also there's no evidence he cheated. The rules didn't say he couldn't have the stream of an opponent open, and that's all the screenshot proves. That he has the stream open.
So marten lost fair and square, diamond didnt break any rules. If the rules aren't what you feel they -should- be you either don't play the tourney or man the fuck up.
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He lied because he knew he was cheating. Why else would he lie?
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On December 04 2013 03:55 gingerfluffmuff wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 03:46 willoc wrote:On December 04 2013 03:43 gingerfluffmuff wrote:
Calling it cheating is just wrong, why should someone not look when its 1 click away?
This is your argument? You do know a lot of cheats in games are just a click away? Idk, i just consider streaming something = to make something public. When i play rock paper scissor i wouldnt blame my opponent for winning when i would announce every move i make. (hm, maybe not a good example)
You have a very weird view. The sc2 go4 cups were streamed live or with short delay for a very long time.. Looking at them if you are a part of them was obviously always considered cheating. Its the same for any tournament that was getting streamed or casted.
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On December 04 2013 04:07 Schwopzi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 03:55 SOB_Maj_Brian wrote:
The guy may not be a "cheater", but he certainly is a liar (he lied about looking at the stream), and it certainly was unsportsmanlike. That's an assumption. He never denied he had the stream on. He just said he wasn't watching it. Also there's no evidence he cheated. The rules didn't say he couldn't have the stream of an opponent open, and that's all the screenshot proves. That he has the stream open. So marten lost fair and square, diamond didnt break any rules. If the rules aren't what you feel they -should- be you either don't play the tourney or man the fuck up.
lmao
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Seems obvious to me that it's better for the entire community if we encourage streaming for events like these and discourage scumbags who ghost.
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On December 04 2013 03:54 TheDna wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 03:42 teddyoojo wrote:On December 04 2013 03:30 ReketSomething wrote:
Fault of all 4 parties. MartenJ for streaming, DiamondProx for streamcheating, reddit for always closing threads without paying attention/reading it and ESL for not giving a fuck that someone cheated. its not like he used maphack tho, why would ESL have to react when he can just not stream next time pretty terrible from superior moba gamer tho Its exactly like using maphack. There is no difference, just in the risk of getting caught.. Cheating is cheating, there is no difference. Cheating should be always punished the exactly same way specially if there is evidence like this. I think the suggestion to email his sponsor is very good. That will hopefully have some consequences for this scumbag.
No its not "exactly like using maphack". With maphack you get an unfair benefit because you use / alter the gamecode in an unintended (and forbidden!) way while the opponent plays normal. What happened is more like martenJ put his buildorder prematch on Stream, while not even forced to stream, and then raged like a kid because his cannonrush get countered. NOBODY is forced to stream any of the matches and nobody forced him to use such a low delay. Complaining after such a thing happens is just stupid, especially if there are other points like "Oooh he changed his nickname! So shady!" and "They don't want my drama on reddit, lets post it here!"
Is it good sportsmanship to use the stream of an opponent? No. But whoever is so stupid to give away vital match information does not deserve it better. But who knows, maybe thats even good for martenJ, seems like he wants the attention to get a few more viewers on his stream.
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On December 04 2013 04:07 Schwopzi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 03:55 SOB_Maj_Brian wrote:
The guy may not be a "cheater", but he certainly is a liar (he lied about looking at the stream), and it certainly was unsportsmanlike. That's an assumption. He never denied he had the stream on. He just said he wasn't watching it. Also there's no evidence he cheated. The rules didn't say he couldn't have the stream of an opponent open, and that's all the screenshot proves. That he has the stream open. So marten lost fair and square, diamond didnt break any rules. If the rules aren't what you feel they -should- be you either don't play the tourney or man the fuck up.
I agree with you about cheating and about the rule breaking. But how can you have the stream up ant not "watch" (i.e. to look at or observe)? It's right there in the screenshot! He had to open it and its playing right there!
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Lol, stream cheating isn't a DQ, good to see ESL admins' terrible decision making haven't changed since SC2. I'd agree with no action if the proof was not this concrete, but that's obvious cheating. If you're not going to DQ for cheating, what are you even going to DQ for... Actually, knowing ESL, they'll DQ for msging admins too many times or speaking to admins in an aggressive manner.
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On December 04 2013 04:38 Gr33d wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 03:54 TheDna wrote:On December 04 2013 03:42 teddyoojo wrote:On December 04 2013 03:30 ReketSomething wrote:
Fault of all 4 parties. MartenJ for streaming, DiamondProx for streamcheating, reddit for always closing threads without paying attention/reading it and ESL for not giving a fuck that someone cheated. its not like he used maphack tho, why would ESL have to react when he can just not stream next time pretty terrible from superior moba gamer tho Its exactly like using maphack. There is no difference, just in the risk of getting caught.. Cheating is cheating, there is no difference. Cheating should be always punished the exactly same way specially if there is evidence like this. I think the suggestion to email his sponsor is very good. That will hopefully have some consequences for this scumbag. No its not "exactly like using maphack". With maphack you get an unfair benefit because you use / alter the gamecode in an unintended (and forbidden!) way while the opponent plays normal.
You seriously think it has to alter game-code to be a cheat? It is "exactly like using a maphack" when I look at my buddy's screen in the same room when we play SC2 or HS vs. each other. You are gaining information you should not have when playing the match.
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On December 04 2013 04:38 Gr33d wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 03:54 TheDna wrote:On December 04 2013 03:42 teddyoojo wrote:On December 04 2013 03:30 ReketSomething wrote:
Fault of all 4 parties. MartenJ for streaming, DiamondProx for streamcheating, reddit for always closing threads without paying attention/reading it and ESL for not giving a fuck that someone cheated. its not like he used maphack tho, why would ESL have to react when he can just not stream next time pretty terrible from superior moba gamer tho Its exactly like using maphack. There is no difference, just in the risk of getting caught.. Cheating is cheating, there is no difference. Cheating should be always punished the exactly same way specially if there is evidence like this. I think the suggestion to email his sponsor is very good. That will hopefully have some consequences for this scumbag. No its not "exactly like using maphack". With maphack you get an unfair benefit because you use / alter the gamecode in an unintended (and forbidden!) way while the opponent plays normal. What happened is more like martenJ put his buildorder prematch on Stream, while not even forced to stream, and then raged like a kid because his cannonrush get countered. NOBODY is forced to stream any of the matches and nobody forced him to use such a low delay. Complaining after such a thing happens is just stupid, especially if there are other points like "Oooh he changed his nickname! So shady!" and "They don't want my drama on reddit, lets post it here!" Is it good sportsmanship to use the stream of an opponent? No. But whoever is so stupid to give away vital match information does not deserve it better. But who knows, maybe thats even good for martenJ, seems like he wants the attention to get a few more viewers on his stream.
Man you are FOS.. You interact with your streamviewers, thats why you dont put in a bigger delay else streaming is pretty much obsolete.
The punishment should still be exactly the same as maphacking as it has exactly the same effect. And if you are even stupid enough to screenshot it, you definitely deserve to get burned.
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He pretty much pushed the information in his face. And when you play with your buddy in the same room and you have to look at his screen its probably because switching monitors/PCs would not be practical. Turning off the stream or giving ita much larger delay however is reasonable. Its not some super secret tech, he did stream it to hundreds of viewers, how stupid is it to not assume that your opponent MIGHT just tune in, especially when it pops in on the frontpage of the twitch hearthstone channel? Thats like complaining you got "hacked" when you post your login info on stream for all the world to see.
Instead of writing some crap mails to diamondprox sponsors people should write a mail to Blizzard so that a proper spectator mode gets added.
On December 04 2013 05:25 TheDna wrote:
Man you are FOS.. You interact with your streamviewers, thats why you dont put in a bigger delay else streaming is pretty much obsolete.
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Guess you have anger management issues. Its is NOT required to stream, so why should the ESL or the other player be at fault, its martenJs own decision. He wants the exposure / money from twitch, he has to live with the risk because there are a more than enough ways to prevent what happened (And as stated, its not the first time he accused someone of "streamcheating", the last time just because someone had a vaguely similar nickname in chat than his opponent). Now continue to cry foul, maybe even sub his channel so he can deal better with this devastating loss.
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Pretty annoying, but remember don't tempt the weak willed to cheat. So while it is really bad that diamondprox person cheated, it wouldn't have happened if the OP didn't stream. Thats probably the only difference to a maphack.
So I can understand if tournament organizers take less action against these things and rather tell people not to stream. If everyone would stream with no delay, the admins would surely have a ton of banhammer swinging more to do each tournament.
Just like the police would be pretty busy if everyone would leave their windows wide open and tell them: "my door was locked !" after being robbed. (luckily no one does it since insurances will pay nothing if they find out you did "tempt" someone to rob your house)
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How do I explain this best?
Streaming is good, because it promotes these types of events and brings exposure to the game and organizations sposoring the events. Some events even REQUIRE you to stream 2P for example. So in some cases you wont be able to avoid it. There are even official streams.
Delay in Hearthstone does not really matter much. Unless you delay it to 30-60mins, but than interaction with audience isn't possible anymore. That makes streams less enjoyable obviously.
Why does even 15mins delay not matter much? Because there is no timelimit in custom games. This means people can delay each turn for a couple of minutes and still get a huge advantage by streamcheating/ghosting.
Promoting and not punishing ghosting/streamcheating is ridiculous. Because it would basically mean that everyone that wants to compete in these types of events pretty much has to do it. Its really silly to say that MartenJ was "pushing the information into Dimondprox face"..
And he wasnt even complaining until there was pretty much undeniable proof of the guy cheating him.. How could he even ignore that screenshot? Its pretty much your duty as an honest person to report a cheater to the admins..
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So basically:
Marten: Fucked up (next time don't stream for tournaments - ie. a big 'fuck you' to the community).
ESL: Fucked up (next time... who am i kidding)
DiamondProx: Pathetic fucktard.
Sum it up?
I hope we can all agree. This thread still does serve an important purpose: exposing DiamondProx.
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it really is your fault for delaying with only 90 seconds... no one was forcing you to stream with a delay that only lasted 90 seconds
i don't get what you are trying to accomplish with this
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On December 04 2013 06:14 TheDna wrote:
How do I explain this best?
Streaming is good, because it promotes these types of events and brings exposure to the game and organizations sposoring the events. Some events even REQUIRE you to stream 2P for example. So in some cases you wont be able to avoid it. There are even official streams.
Delay in Hearthstone does not really matter much. Unless you delay it to 30-60mins, but than interaction with audience isn't possible anymore. That makes streams less enjoyable obviously.
Why does even 15mins delay not matter much? Because there is no timelimit in custom games. This means people can delay each turn for a couple of minutes and still get a huge advantage by streamcheating/ghosting.
Promoting and not punishing ghosting/streamcheating is ridiculous. Because it would basically mean that everyone that wants to compete in these types of events pretty much has to do it. Its really silly to say that MartenJ was "pushing the information into Dimondprox face"..
And he wasnt even complaining until there was pretty much undeniable proof of the guy cheating him.. How could he even ignore that screenshot? Its pretty much your duty as an honest person to report a cheater to the admins..
good post.
Basically its a trade-off. I wanna interact with my viewers as much as possible, and delay makes it much harder to do.
I tried to avoid any QQ in OP (not sure if that worked out or not) and just state facts. I didn't even use the word cheat in the OP.
As I said its unethical and unsportsmanlike imo, and there's no good definition of cheating anyway.
Regarding the email the sponsors idea: I like it, I think I'll write an email to Riot games. Every LCS player gets a salary from Riot and I think they have pretty strict rules if they misbehave (get punished by the tribunal for example)
I think Diamondprox has a rather poor reputation in the lol community anyway (i might be wrong about this, but he used to rage pretty hard iirc)
Regarding ESL: I have almost no experience with the ESL and how strictly they enforce their rules, but I know ppl dont like them in this community. I didn't even check the rules first when i protested, but I thought it would be at least possible that he gets DQed from the tournament (or gets a temp ban). The screenshot gets as close as it gets to a proof imo.
I'm not sure if the fact the Diamond is a E-sports celebrity had anything to do with the fact that the protest got closed really fast, but tbh I doubt it.
The accusations that I use this thread just to promote my stream are pretty lol, I haven't even linked to my stream once. It's in German anyway so there's no point in doing so.
and yeah, the purpose of the thread is just to call out this scumbag.
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On December 04 2013 07:02 SpecialistSc wrote:
it really is your fault for delaying with only 90 seconds... no one was forcing you to stream with a delay that only lasted 90 seconds
i don't get what you are trying to accomplish with this
how do you not get it, the point is spelled out in the thread title. unless you're a fucking idiot, the minor mistake of streaming with an unwise delay does not justify the fact that some guy who's sponsored and is held to a standard of professionalism stream-sniped him with almost incontrovertible proof.
if he wanted to, I'm pretty sure the OP could really mess with this guy via his sponsors, and frankly he probably should. cue people saying it's revenge, but even though it's a different and more casual game (I highly suspect this is the thought process that led to him cheating), blatant and obvious fuckery shouldn't be tolerated. competition is still competition.
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On December 04 2013 07:02 SpecialistSc wrote:
it really is your fault for delaying with only 90 seconds... no one was forcing you to stream with a delay that only lasted 90 seconds
i don't get what you are trying to accomplish with this
guess we know how you won a tlopen
User was warned for this post
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Well, the ESL admin stated that watching your opponent's stream is by no means forbidden by the tournament, so Diamondprox did nothing wrong. I don't get what this witch hunt is trying to accomplish, he apparently didn't violate any rules set up by ESL and he doesn't deserve this. I guess martenJ is mad because he got outsmarted by his opponent, who also happens to be a successful LoL player, which may encourage further jealousy.
As long as the tournament admins state that his behaviour is just fine, it's totally your own fault if you want to show him your cards. He did nothing wrong, the only wrong thing is calling him out here (and on reddit).
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How ethical would streaming and interacting with viewers in a competitive game with reputation and money on the line be in the first place? Though, broadcasting on its own does not imply the availability of outside help.
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On December 04 2013 07:26 the`postman wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 07:02 SpecialistSc wrote:
it really is your fault for delaying with only 90 seconds... no one was forcing you to stream with a delay that only lasted 90 seconds
i don't get what you are trying to accomplish with this guess we know how you won a tlopen
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User was warned for this post
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I understand that people agree with ESL because it did not violate any rules. What I don't understand that why it is not a rule. This community needs people to stream this game, and needs people to stream tournaments. Of course MartenJ could have done more to protect himself from this happening. That does not mean we should condone that it did happen.
Also can people please refrain from (personal attacks?) calling MartenJ mad/dumb/jealous/whatever. If you believe you have been wronged and can in fact prove it and no one seems to want to help you, you would probably be doing the exact same thing attemtping to involve the community. I think he made a fairly respectable post considering what he believes to be the circumstances.
Though I believe we need to shift the focus to ESL changing their rules, rather than witch hunting Diamondprox. In my opinion, what he allegedly did was very unsportsmanlike, but it was not against ESL regulations at the time (although some posts seem to indicate he was likely not aware of that, but nevermind that). Rules are there to combat unsportsmanlike behavior. It is exactly what they are there for.
Currently hearthstone is not (yet?) built for streamcheating/ghosting whatever it is called. In customs there is no time limit to your turn, meaning you can actually wait a full 15 minutes for someones delay to sync with your turn and then go from there. At the very least you could wait and get to see his hand which is information enough to win you a game in some cases. Are you guys ACTUALLY suggesting that is perfectly fine and we shouldn't act up? And don't start saying that's blizzard's fault now too for not implementing a proper feature to combat it.
Hearthstone tournaments should have rules against streamcheating. Even if it is only there to discourage it (because it is very difficult to actually proof it in many many cases).
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It's not a rule because there's no way to enforce it and you shouldn't be showing your opponent your entire hand in the first place if you care about tournament winnings.
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On December 04 2013 09:23 skyR wrote:
It's not a rule because there's no way to enforce it and you shouldn't be showing your opponent your entire hand in the first place if you care about tournament winnings.
That does not mean that when it can absolutely be enforced, it shouldn't be enforced. Although that does not necessarily have to be the case here.
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Holy crap what a loser thing to do.
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On December 04 2013 09:23 skyR wrote:
It's not a rule because there's no way to enforce it and you shouldn't be showing your opponent your entire hand in the first place if you care about tournament winnings.
Pretty much this. A lot of points here are moot.
You shouldn't be interacting with your fans when your in a tournament setting in the first place.
Secondly when you choose to stream, you essentially advertising for views from everyone.
I think of it like a camwhore who's stream gets watched by her father. Sure her father is a total fucking perv, but she pretty much putting it out there for everyone to see.
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I'm really puzzled by the ESL admins in all of this. If you are hosting a tournament, one of the top priorities should be to push the content to as many people as possible. Unfortunately in Hearthstone there isn't really a great way to do this online since there is a lack of observer client. So if I was hosting a tournament I would do everything to help people wanting to stream their play.
It's obvious that you run a risk when doing so, no matter what delay you set the game is still turn based. Your opponent can just wait for the stream to catch up before making a move (and even if he doesn't wait, seeing what cards were in hand on turn1 will still help you at turn 4). It's also really hard to catch people cheating in this way, since it's possible to watch streams anonymously. But when someone is stupid enough to actually send the evidence of them cheating to the admins, not acting on it is just absolutely mind boggling. Even for ESL admins this seems like a new low.
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It's saddening to see a fair amount of people not have an issue with stream cheating. Instead electing to place the blame on the victim. This should really be frowned upon, not LOL you invited him to cheat you!
This isn't a witch hunt against Diamondprox either. More of a wave to ESL for not properly handling the situation.
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On December 04 2013 10:32 Irave wrote:
It's saddening to see a fair amount of people not have an issue with stream cheating. Instead electing to place the blame on the victim. This should really be frowned upon, not LOL you invited him to cheat you!
This is my thought too. This thread is filled with people acting like complete idiots.
Just because someone presents you with a situation doesn't mean you have to do it if you know it is morally wrong.
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On December 04 2013 10:44 SCC-Faust wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 10:32 Irave wrote:
It's saddening to see a fair amount of people not have an issue with stream cheating. Instead electing to place the blame on the victim. This should really be frowned upon, not LOL you invited him to cheat you! This is my thought too. This thread is filled with people acting like complete idiots. Just because someone presents you with a situation doesn't mean you have to do it if you know it is morally wrong.
yea, because so many people in this thread said it was morally right for diamondprox to "streamcheat". oh wait. Nobody did.
People argue that it is legally right. Additionally, even though diamondprox is morally wrong, it is still martenJ fault for streaming without a sufficient delay. Technically, it isn't even proven that diamondprox did look at the stream while playing.
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On December 04 2013 07:16 TheExile19 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 07:02 SpecialistSc wrote:
it really is your fault for delaying with only 90 seconds... no one was forcing you to stream with a delay that only lasted 90 seconds
i don't get what you are trying to accomplish with this how do you not get it, the point is spelled out in the thread title. unless you're a fucking idiot, the minor mistake of streaming with an unwise delay does not justify the fact that some guy who's sponsored and is held to a standard of professionalism stream-sniped him with almost incontrovertible proof. if he wanted to, I'm pretty sure the OP could really mess with this guy via his sponsors, and frankly he probably should. cue people saying it's revenge, but even though it's a different and more casual game (I highly suspect this is the thought process that led to him cheating), blatant and obvious fuckery shouldn't be tolerated. competition is still competition.
I have seen Starcraft 2 scene and I know people will do anything to win even a small prize when there is an opportunity.
Thus, what i was trying to say is, it's his fault that he let himself into that vulnerable situation and it was obviously fixable thing to do on his ends.
for example, people who were required to stream in 2p tournament this past weekend obviously raised a possibility of cheating so it was required as a rule to put a 15 min delay on. Any sensible people would put a longer delay like this in tournaments.
Do not be naive and think competitors are all moral and fair minded when there is a prize. Give me a break. I know people do cheat and that's why I take as many precaution as I can when entering competitions online.
If you want to interact with viewers, do that another time, but not during tournaments.
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On December 04 2013 11:25 Keniji wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 10:44 SCC-Faust wrote:On December 04 2013 10:32 Irave wrote:
It's saddening to see a fair amount of people not have an issue with stream cheating. Instead electing to place the blame on the victim. This should really be frowned upon, not LOL you invited him to cheat you! This is my thought too. This thread is filled with people acting like complete idiots. Just because someone presents you with a situation doesn't mean you have to do it if you know it is morally wrong. yea, because so many people in this thread said it was morally right for diamondprox to "streamcheat". oh wait. Nobody did. People argue that it is legally right. Additionally, even though diamondprox is morally wrong, it is still martenJ fault for streaming without a sufficient delay. Technically, it isn't even proven that diamondprox did look at the stream while playing.
Uh what? It is martenJ's fault for enabling Diamondprox to do something he knew was wrong?
I agree martenJ gave Diamondprox the opportunity to cheat. And not streaming is a good solution and would have prevented these problems from ever happening. But given the situation, you know what is another great solution? Punishing the person who cheated. You would have to be incredibly dense to think that this isn't proof enough of cheating. Like you think Diamondprox just has a stream of the person he is going against in the background and not watching it, right.
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DQing Diamondprox for cheating would have been an incredibly stupid move. You shouldn't arbitrarily DQ people for things that aren't against the rules and haven't even been proven. Although there is evidence, nothing is conclusive.
I remember on a competitive shooter game many years back I experienced some glitch where my character shot on top of an inaccessible building. Confused out and worried that people would think I was cheating if they saw me, I quickly laid down and hid. Immediately after jumping onto the building, someone rounded a corner running FRAPs, saw me run and hide, and accused me of cheating with video and everything. What are the odds of that? It's the kind of experience that makes you think "I'm going to give people the benefit of the doubt from here on." That scenario was far less likely than this guy watching the stream beforehand and forgetting to close the tab (though I agree it is unlikely).
Did he probably do it? Yes. Should the admins invent rules on the fly and jump to conclusions that haven't been proven? No. In the meantime, you probably shouldn't stream with a 90 second delay if you're going to get upset when the inevitable happens.
Tourney admins don't deserve blame for this.
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Is this the part where we as a community welcome back Deezer with open arms because he didn't do anything wrong, it was the streamers fault for streaming in the first place? And then we say to everyone "go exploit loopholes in the rules, it's kosher", get on World Poker Tour and win by watching a live broadcast at the table, let teams look at the screens intended for the audiences at LANs and get into mysterious coughing fits on Who Wants to be a Millionaire?
Because it certainly looks that way.
Zero tolerance to any form of cheating, and don't punish community members for creating content for the community. That's fucking retarded.
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It was stupid on your part to stream a tournament game.
The blame does all fall on diamond here. He had a choice to watch your stream or not. he choose to cheat full stop period explanation mark
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In my opinion, stream cheating is cheating and he should get punished. Usually it's hard to prove, but if he's going to provide proof he cheated, then there isn't much room for doubt.
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Wow, there seems a lot of people in the TL hearthstone forum that condones stream cheating. If someone was found out to be stream cheating in an sc2 match, there would be a major outcry from the public. Seems like the TL hearthstone community doesn't care about cheating. Maybe it's because the hearthstone community is young?
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On December 04 2013 14:21 RockIronrod wrote:
Is this the part where we as a community welcome back Deezer with open arms because he didn't do anything wrong, it was the streamers fault for streaming in the first place? And then we say to everyone "go exploit loopholes in the rules, it's kosher", get on World Poker Tour and win by watching a live broadcast at the table, let teams look at the screens intended for the audiences at LANs and get into mysterious coughing fits on Who Wants to be a Millionaire?
Because it certainly looks that way.
Zero tolerance to any form of cheating, and don't punish community members for creating content for the community. That's fucking retarded.
Yeah, this is what I am seeing in this thread. People are blaming marten for streaming rather than condeming diamondplox for stream cheating. It's like blaming the girl for being raped because she wore short skirts. Just seems weird that people in the hearthstone community is blaming the victim. o.o
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I don't care if it was easy for him to cheat, or this guy made it easy to do so. Cheating is wrong, even if it's easy to do. Diamondprox has no reason to cheat other than being a complete asshole. His team just won over $18,000 a few weeks ago. For him to cheat to win is just unbelievably poor sportsmanship and incredibly petty on his part. Not punishing that is pretty terrible, but I guess rules are rules.
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Wow. Very unfortunate. Some real scumbaggery. But the lesson isn't "don't stream"... it's "cover up your hand if streaming in a tournament." A longer delay doesn't really help; a good HS player sees which cards you play and can often deduce a lot of your hand. If they're playing out their turn, even if you rush through yours, he can still see your hand 2 turns ago with a 3 minute delay.
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Well Diamond isnt known for his good manners in the LoL scene so it's not surprising.. It sucks for you man but I think you should put max delay when you're streaming tournament ! Not ideal for the interaction with your viewers but at least it will prevent people from ghosting you :-)
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On December 04 2013 11:42 SpecialistSc wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 07:16 TheExile19 wrote:On December 04 2013 07:02 SpecialistSc wrote:
it really is your fault for delaying with only 90 seconds... no one was forcing you to stream with a delay that only lasted 90 seconds
i don't get what you are trying to accomplish with this how do you not get it, the point is spelled out in the thread title. unless you're a fucking idiot, the minor mistake of streaming with an unwise delay does not justify the fact that some guy who's sponsored and is held to a standard of professionalism stream-sniped him with almost incontrovertible proof. if he wanted to, I'm pretty sure the OP could really mess with this guy via his sponsors, and frankly he probably should. cue people saying it's revenge, but even though it's a different and more casual game (I highly suspect this is the thought process that led to him cheating), blatant and obvious fuckery shouldn't be tolerated. competition is still competition. I have seen Starcraft 2 scene and I know people will do anything to win even a small prize when there is an opportunity. Thus, what i was trying to say is, it's his fault that he let himself into that vulnerable situation and it was obviously fixable thing to do on his ends. for example, people who were required to stream in 2p tournament this past weekend obviously raised a possibility of cheating so it was required as a rule to put a 15 min delay on. Any sensible people would put a longer delay like this in tournaments. Do not be naive and think competitors are all moral and fair minded when there is a prize. Give me a break. I know people do cheat and that's why I take as many precaution as I can when entering competitions online. If you want to interact with viewers, do that another time, but not during tournaments.
How come you are attacking marten who is the victim here? This feels very strange to me. It seems you are giving the cheater a free pass and ragging on the person who was cheated upon.
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On December 04 2013 15:47 ptbl wrote:
Wow, there seems a lot of people in the TL hearthstone forum that condones stream cheating. If someone was found out to be stream cheating in an sc2 match, there would be a major outcry from the public. Seems like the TL hearthstone community doesn't care about cheating. Maybe it's because the hearthstone community is young?
Exactly the way I felt about this, glad I m not the only one. I really hope we dont see the rather immature LoL community running over from one free to play game to another. Because that is exactly why I never liked free to play games. Its really sad to see people supporting a cheater and blaming the victim..
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This thread sickens me. Some people in here are out of control. Cheating is wrong, period. Cheaters should be punished (once proven guilty of course).
No, he shouldn't be disqualified without proof, but there should be no doubt that stream cheating is wrong. This looks like pretty good proof and the tourney admins should look into it.
If I leave my door unlocked, do I deserve to get robbed? If a woman wears sexy clothing and is walking home at night, does she deserve to get raped? If I left my bag at my table at a restaurant when I go to the bathroom and it gets stolen, is it my fault? Are these things inevitable? If caught, who should be blamed in these situations? The answer should be obvious...
YES you take precautions against the scumbags of the world, but NO it's not your fault. It's their fault.
It's pretty normal for tournament rules to not cover everything. When new situations arise, the admins need to make a decision on it. ESL made a poor decision here, and we should fight back or not watch.
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On December 04 2013 19:20 TheDna wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 15:47 ptbl wrote:
Wow, there seems a lot of people in the TL hearthstone forum that condones stream cheating. If someone was found out to be stream cheating in an sc2 match, there would be a major outcry from the public. Seems like the TL hearthstone community doesn't care about cheating. Maybe it's because the hearthstone community is young? Exactly the way I felt about this, glad I m not the only one. I really hope we dont see the rather immature LoL community running over from one free to play game to another. Because that is exactly why I never liked free to play games. Its really sad to see people supporting a cheater and blaming the victim..
I don't get the irrational hate of LoL. The age group doesn't really differ between the various games, no reason to think that they'd be more mature. Go visit the TL LoL section and compare it to Sc2, I think you'd be surprised.
That said, I would rather take this incident as a lesson. Hearthstone, unlike a lot of other games, you can get a huge advantage by stream cheating, even with a comparatively large delay. I don't see this as avoidable either(except by turning off stream or running VERY large delays). Proven cheaters should still be punished, but precautions should be taken.
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So let's get this straight. A guy who falsely accused people of stream-cheating before claims a famous pro player who earns well over a hundred thousand dollars annually stream-cheated against him in a tourney that basically has peanuts for a prizepool, with his only proof being a screenshot that was uploaded 'by accident' by the said pro player (nvm that #1: the SS doesn't actually prove anything, and #2: is very convenient of an accident, don't you think?), and suddenly the said pro player is a horrible cheater who should be shunned and hated by the entire community? Eh...
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On December 04 2013 19:27 soulglider009 wrote:
This thread sickens me. Some people in here are out of control. Cheating is wrong, period. Cheaters should be punished (once proven guilty of course).
No, he shouldn't be disqualified without proof, but there should be no doubt that stream cheating is wrong. This looks like pretty good proof and the tourney admins should look into it.
If I leave my door unlocked, do I deserve to get robbed? If a woman wears sexy clothing and is walking home at night, does she deserve to get raped? If I left my bag at my table at a restaurant when I go to the bathroom and it gets stolen, is it my fault? Are these things inevitable? If caught, who should be blamed in these situations? The answer should be obvious...
YES you take precautions against the scumbags of the world, but NO it's not your fault. It's their fault.
It's pretty normal for tournament rules to not cover everything. When new situations arise, the admins need to make a decision on it. ESL made a poor decision here, and we should fight back or not watch.
I'm pretty sure no one here said that cheating isn't wrong and that cheaters shouldn't be punished.
The screenshot just shows the stream open. It doesn't prove he was stream cheating.
If you leave your door unlocked, yes it is your fault that you got robbed. There's a fucking reason why locks exist.
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Anyway, one thing is simple, if someone streamcheat, he is gaining unfair advantage and desereves DQ. I dont care about someone says thats streamer´s fault. The moment someone turns on his opponent stream it is cheating.
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On December 04 2013 19:49 Salazarz wrote:
So let's get this straight. A guy who falsely accused people of stream-cheating before claims a famous pro player who earns well over a hundred thousand dollars annually stream-cheated against him in a tourney that basically has peanuts for a prizepool, with his only proof being a screenshot that was uploaded 'by accident' by the said pro player (nvm that #1: the SS doesn't actually prove anything, and #2: is very convenient of an accident, don't you think?), and suddenly the said pro player is a horrible cheater who should be shunned and hated by the entire community? Eh...
Yes, he just coincidentally waited the same length of the stream delay with the stream open.
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On December 04 2013 19:49 Salazarz wrote:
So let's get this straight. A guy who falsely accused people of stream-cheating before claims a famous pro player who earns well over a hundred thousand dollars annually stream-cheated against him in a tourney that basically has peanuts for a prizepool, with his only proof being a screenshot that was uploaded 'by accident' by the said pro player (nvm that #1: the SS doesn't actually prove anything, and #2: is very convenient of an accident, don't you think?), and suddenly the said pro player is a horrible cheater who should be shunned and hated by the entire community? Eh...
Most of the talk in this thread is that "it's your fault if someone stream cheated you", which we should not be supporting. Obviously the legitimacy of the claim should be looked into. The problem is that people are on the other side and automatically attacking the accuser.
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So all of this could have been avoided with Marten either putting on a longer delay, or not streaming at all. Really that's where the blame ends, Diamond may have possibly been unsportsmanlike, but he broke not a single rule in the tournament.
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On December 04 2013 20:05 Zdrastochye wrote:
So all of this could have been avoided with Marten either putting on a longer delay, or not streaming at all. Really that's where the blame ends, Diamond may have possibly been unsportsmanlike, but he broke not a single rule in the tournament.
Are you fucking serious?
Are you seriously absolving the perpetrator because the victim could've prevented it? There's responsibility on the person streaming yeah of course, but that doesn't make the person stream cheating somehow innocent. That's fucking stupid.
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Russian Federation262 Posts
The 1st game was the most obvious reason to close your stream.
Im gonna ask Genja about this.
Kids are so annoying and bad mannered this days ;( meh
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On December 04 2013 20:07 RockIronrod wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 20:05 Zdrastochye wrote:
So all of this could have been avoided with Marten either putting on a longer delay, or not streaming at all. Really that's where the blame ends, Diamond may have possibly been unsportsmanlike, but he broke not a single rule in the tournament. Are you fucking serious? Are you seriously absolving the perpetrator because the victim could've prevented it? There's responsibility on the person streaming yeah of course, but that doesn't make the person stream cheating somehow innocent. That's fucking stupid.
If diamond was stream cheating, it was unsportsmanlike, but he didn't break a single rule in doing so. Everybody who streams hearthstone should know the ramifications of doing so, especially if there is something on the line. You'd need at minimum a 4 minute delay(assuming you take 30s a turn and he takes near 90) to really even begin to deter it.
The fact of the matter is that hearthstone, unlike action games, doesn't change rapidly. In SC2, if you have information on what your opponent did 3 minutes ago, it's helpful, but not gamebreaking for most people. Same goes for a lot of other games.
When you make yourself vulnerable, the onus isn't on the organization to ban everybody who might be streamcheating. Either put a 5+ minute delay while playing tournament matches or just turn the stream off. Not much else to say about it. The information you can get from knowing what your opponent had/has even 2 turns ago is absolutely massive against some decks.
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Ghosting is OBVIOUSLY cheating. The opponent went through the hassle of looking up your opponent's stream and then using it to gain an unfair advantage. Even if it's not against the rules, it is unethical and morally wrong.
1. As a previous poster said, the community benefits from streaming and is hurt by ghosting
2. Putting on more delay inhibits the viewer/streamer experience
3. Even if something isn't against the rules, it can still be wrong. Ghosting was always considered cheating in Starcraft lol
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On December 04 2013 19:49 Salazarz wrote:
So let's get this straight. A guy who falsely accused people of stream-cheating before claims a famous pro player who earns well over a hundred thousand dollars annually stream-cheated against him in a tourney that basically has peanuts for a prizepool, with his only proof being a screenshot that was uploaded 'by accident' by the said pro player (nvm that #1: the SS doesn't actually prove anything, and #2: is very convenient of an accident, don't you think?), and suddenly the said pro player is a horrible cheater who should be shunned and hated by the entire community? Eh...
First of all, where is the proof for him having falsely accused people before? Commenting like that without providing any other infos is pretty useless and just looks like you are personally attacking op.
As for this thread there is definitely proof for the pretty obvious streamcheating.. And how does it matter how much money the guy has or makes a year? That is a ridiculous argument. People have been cheating just to win for ages. Some of them rich some of them poor..
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On December 04 2013 19:59 RockIronrod wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 19:49 Salazarz wrote:
So let's get this straight. A guy who falsely accused people of stream-cheating before claims a famous pro player who earns well over a hundred thousand dollars annually stream-cheated against him in a tourney that basically has peanuts for a prizepool, with his only proof being a screenshot that was uploaded 'by accident' by the said pro player (nvm that #1: the SS doesn't actually prove anything, and #2: is very convenient of an accident, don't you think?), and suddenly the said pro player is a horrible cheater who should be shunned and hated by the entire community? Eh...
Yes, he just coincidentally waited the same length of the stream delay with the stream open.
And you know that how? Oh right, the guy who is obviously mad about losing (and falsely accused people in similar situation before...) told you so. Yes, that clearly proves everything, we better tell all the sponsors what a scumbag Diamondprox is.
Geez.
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On December 04 2013 07:04 martenJ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 06:14 TheDna wrote:
How do I explain this best?
Streaming is good, because it promotes these types of events and brings exposure to the game and organizations sposoring the events. Some events even REQUIRE you to stream 2P for example. So in some cases you wont be able to avoid it. There are even official streams.
Delay in Hearthstone does not really matter much. Unless you delay it to 30-60mins, but than interaction with audience isn't possible anymore. That makes streams less enjoyable obviously.
Why does even 15mins delay not matter much? Because there is no timelimit in custom games. This means people can delay each turn for a couple of minutes and still get a huge advantage by streamcheating/ghosting.
Promoting and not punishing ghosting/streamcheating is ridiculous. Because it would basically mean that everyone that wants to compete in these types of events pretty much has to do it. Its really silly to say that MartenJ was "pushing the information into Dimondprox face"..
And he wasnt even complaining until there was pretty much undeniable proof of the guy cheating him.. How could he even ignore that screenshot? Its pretty much your duty as an honest person to report a cheater to the admins.. good post. Basically its a trade-off. I wanna interact with my viewers as much as possible, and delay makes it much harder to do. I tried to avoid any QQ in OP (not sure if that worked out or not) and just state facts. I didn't even use the word cheat in the OP. As I said its unethical and unsportsmanlike imo, and there's no good definition of cheating anyway. Regarding the email the sponsors idea: I like it, I think I'll write an email to Riot games. Every LCS player gets a salary from Riot and I think they have pretty strict rules if they misbehave (get punished by the tribunal for example) I think Diamondprox has a rather poor reputation in the lol community anyway (i might be wrong about this, but he used to rage pretty hard iirc)
You have 0 proof that he actually stream cheated. He told you that he know you streamed and thats exactly what the picture shows. That he knows that you stream. I don't see him making a play based on your hand.
If you consider this behavior so OMG unethical and scumbagy (don't get me wrong, I think it is, but you have no proof), point can be made that user interaction on a stream is also "cheating". imagine someone on your stream chat is watching is stream and suggests plays based on that you actually take advice on a 50/50 situation and you go for the best play because the guy shifted the balance. Imagine you miss lethal and the users told you so, you missed a play and other factors external to the game at hand help you win. How can you call him cheater without proof and not even take a look in the mirror?
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yeah he sure had the stream open and did not look at it ...
there is no help anymore for people who believe that ...
Diamondprox is a scumbag and by telling something like how much money he makes playing LoL etc. makes him even more of a scumbag if he needs to cheat in such a tournament.
i wonder if the guy whom he did it to was someone else for example TLO, i guess the reactions would be totally different
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Also guys, let's just start sending out emails to sponsors because a 6 post user told us so.
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On December 04 2013 21:06 misirlou wrote:
Also guys, let's just start sending out emails to sponsors because a 6 post user told us so.
Someone else suggested that Op should send the email himself. And it wasn't op suggesting it to everyone else... It almost looks to me like Diamondprox mobilized his fanbase or something with these ridiculous arguments?
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In theory, he could innocently assume his opponent thinks of being so strong at Hearthstone that he wants to play with cards shown on purpose, for whatever personal training goals. Sure, that would be a completely retarded thing to even consider, but let's entertain the thought. However, he also lied about watching the stream, so no, he's not innocent at all.
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Yes yes, it's morally wrong and whatever but there is a reason not a single starcraft player streams online tournaments without delay. It's not like this is new... People should have had that figured out 3 years ago.
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Russian Federation262 Posts
Anyway, i think Diamond's sponsors must see this screenshot.
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One question to OP:
Why didnt you just close the stream or raise the delay threshold after the first game / while the first game was going?
It seems pants on head retarded to think someone to be streamcheating and taking exactly 0 measures to prevent it.
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I''m really shocked about the attitude in this thread, it is unbelievable that there are people who are defending the offender IN ANY WAY. Streamcheating is a disgusting act, beeing retarded enough to actually upload the proof by yourself is actually ridiculously funny.
Even though this probably will not have any official ramifications this person has lost my respect (Not that he gained it ever, i do not even know who he is)
EDIT: He was not even logged into his twitch account in order to hide his fraud .... no words
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On December 04 2013 22:52 gaymon wrote:
I''m really shocked about the attitude in this thread, it is unbelievable that there are people who are defending the offender IN ANY WAY. Streamcheating is a disgusting act, beeing retarded enough to actually upload the proof by yourself is actually ridiculously funny.
Even though this probably will not have any official ramifications this person has lost my respect (Not that he gained it ever, i do not even know who he is)
EDIT: He was not even logged into his twitch account in order to hide his fraud .... no words
Many people are burning OP for the mistakes he made. He could have easily prevented this. This is far from "supporting the offender".
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So basically just put 15 minute delay and all problems are solved.
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So I guess me saying that using chat to have them call plays you didn't see is also a form of cheating that the OP is using equals me supporting a stream cheater. Ok.
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On December 04 2013 20:05 Zdrastochye wrote:
So all of this could have been avoided with Marten either putting on a longer delay, or not streaming at all. Really that's where the blame ends, Diamond may have possibly been unsportsmanlike, but he broke not a single rule in the tournament.
Just because no rule exists because they don't think their rules through does not make it okay. If a tournament in StarCraft forgets to add "no maphack" to their rulebook does that suddenly make it ok to maphack? If the monopoly rulebook says nothing about stealing from the bank is it now acceptable to steal from the bank? Have some common fucking sense. The reaction from ESL is laughable and so are a lot of comments like yours in this thread.
Some of these reactions are similar to imbeciles telling a raped girl not to wear a skirt next time. It's so absurd. Yes it could have been avoided that should not be the point of focus here at all.
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On December 05 2013 00:30 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 20:05 Zdrastochye wrote:
So all of this could have been avoided with Marten either putting on a longer delay, or not streaming at all. Really that's where the blame ends, Diamond may have possibly been unsportsmanlike, but he broke not a single rule in the tournament. Just because no rule exists because they don't think their rules through does not make it okay. If a tournament in StarCraft forgets to add "no maphack" to their rulebook does that suddenly make it ok to maphack? If the monopoly rulebook says nothing about stealing from the bank is it now acceptable to steal from the bank? Have some common fucking sense. The reaction from ESL is laughable and so are a lot of comments like yours in this thread. Some of these reactions are similar to imbeciles telling a raped girl not to wear a skirt next time. It's so absurd. Yes it could have been avoided that should not be the point of focus here at all.
This, seriously I am blown away that people are like QQ you shouldn't have let him cheat... Diamond may have possibly been unsportsmanlike, but he broke not a single rule in the tournament.
There is no may or possibly, he WAS unsportsmanlike and he WAS cheating. The same logic could have been used when the Patriots cheated and video taped other teams signals, you could say "well they should have been better about hiding their signals from the video cameras sorry"
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Did anyone dating "its not against the rules " even look at them?
http://www.nationalesl.com/us/hearthstone/1on1/beta_cup1/rules/2.3. Cheating
All forms of cheating in ESL matches are forbidden and will be penalized by the Electronic Sports League.
Either it was against the rules and they're not doing anything about it, or stream cheating is somehow not cheating.
In either case, what the fuck? At least look into it, Jesus Christ the guy sent a screenshot of himself with the fucking stream open.
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I cannot believe how many people are actually supporting the stream-cheater here. What the hell? This really makes me sad, that so many people in the esports community think like this these days.
Any company sponsoring Diamondprox should get away from him and stay away from him. Any respectable esports tournament/cup should ban players who have stream-cheated in the past. I would be really disappointed to see Diamondprox compete in any TLOpen in the future.
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ITT: people constructing strawmen and attacking them.
Nobody is supporting the cheater in this thread. Just pointing out that tournaments should apply rigor to a decision to DQ someone for cheating. While the OP's evidence is strong, it is not conclusive. I was an admin at Gamebattles.com back in the day and saw several situations with even more damning evidence where the person ended up being innocent. Given that stream cheating isn't going to be prevented by witch hunts, the only lesson we can really take away is that 90sec is not an adequate delay.
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On December 05 2013 00:30 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 20:05 Zdrastochye wrote:
So all of this could have been avoided with Marten either putting on a longer delay, or not streaming at all. Really that's where the blame ends, Diamond may have possibly been unsportsmanlike, but he broke not a single rule in the tournament. Just because no rule exists because they don't think their rules through does not make it okay. If a tournament in StarCraft forgets to add "no maphack" to their rulebook does that suddenly make it ok to maphack? If the monopoly rulebook says nothing about stealing from the bank is it now acceptable to steal from the bank? Have some common fucking sense. The reaction from ESL is laughable and so are a lot of comments like yours in this thread. Some of these reactions are similar to imbeciles telling a raped girl not to wear a skirt next time. It's so absurd. Yes it could have been avoided that should not be the point of focus here at all.
Difference is rape is illegal.
stream cheating was not in this case.
EDIT: to be clear, Dprox still massive dick move.
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We definitely need more rape analogies, because thats comparable to watching another player stream his tournament match.
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While I agree the OP only has himself to blame, I think that to accept stream cheating is to accept all other forms of cheating.
Slippery slope here, Hearthstone fans. See it for what you'd like, but I personally feel that Diamondprox is equally to blame here and should be held accountable for his actions. While this might not be the case for the OP, many streamers make their livings on their stream, and to start requiring them to find a way to not get screwed over while still being able to make a living is extremely unfair.
I can see pros and cons of both sides, and personally I don't care one way or another. I just figured someone needs to say the obvious, that at some point there would need to be a stopping point for what we will and will not allow.
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On December 05 2013 00:30 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 20:05 Zdrastochye wrote:
So all of this could have been avoided with Marten either putting on a longer delay, or not streaming at all. Really that's where the blame ends, Diamond may have possibly been unsportsmanlike, but he broke not a single rule in the tournament. Just because no rule exists because they don't think their rules through does not make it okay. If a tournament in StarCraft forgets to add "no maphack" to their rulebook does that suddenly make it ok to maphack? If the monopoly rulebook says nothing about stealing from the bank is it now acceptable to steal from the bank? Have some common fucking sense. The reaction from ESL is laughable and so are a lot of comments like yours in this thread. Some of these reactions are similar to imbeciles telling a raped girl not to wear a skirt next time. It's so absurd. Yes it could have been avoided that should not be the point of focus here at all.
Actually yeah, if a major league tournament organizer (does ESL qualify?) doesn't point out in its rules that attempting to observe the other player is grounds for disqualification, then sticking to the rules but using anything else to gain an advantage is fair play. If they change the rule after this match so that streamcheating is illegal, they should pursue this matter and see if they can stop it from happening again. If they do nothing then the onus is on the streamers, not on those watching his stream.
Taken from the ESL website:
2.3. Cheating
All forms of cheating in ESL matches are forbidden and will be penalized by the Electronic Sports League.
Players found cheating outside of the ESL may be barraged on the ESL depending on the evidence available. Note, we do not accept publicly submitted demo or screenshot evidence in these cases.
Should it become known to the ESL administrators that any form of cheating was used to the advantage of a player or a team during an ESL match, the ESL reserves the right to punish them to the full extent of the rules available. By breaking any rule a player risks being barred or completely excluded from a specific league or from all leagues. This also includes their team.
Source: http://www.esl.eu/eu/rules/
So according to their own rules, they have been informed of what occurred, and it's up to their admins to declare if Diamond cheated or not, and no matter how many great points people think they have brought up in this thread, nothing is going to change because of it. If they view him as a cheater then this could be the last ESL event he plays in, but it's not for any of us to say.
Edit for Nazgul: Rape apologist comparison for stream cheating, not quite sure if that's accurate.
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On December 05 2013 03:49 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2013 00:30 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:On December 04 2013 20:05 Zdrastochye wrote:
So all of this could have been avoided with Marten either putting on a longer delay, or not streaming at all. Really that's where the blame ends, Diamond may have possibly been unsportsmanlike, but he broke not a single rule in the tournament. Just because no rule exists because they don't think their rules through does not make it okay. If a tournament in StarCraft forgets to add "no maphack" to their rulebook does that suddenly make it ok to maphack? If the monopoly rulebook says nothing about stealing from the bank is it now acceptable to steal from the bank? Have some common fucking sense. The reaction from ESL is laughable and so are a lot of comments like yours in this thread. Some of these reactions are similar to imbeciles telling a raped girl not to wear a skirt next time. It's so absurd. Yes it could have been avoided that should not be the point of focus here at all. Difference is rape is illegal. stream cheating was not in this case. EDIT: to be clear, Dprox still massive dick move.
Nazgul wasn't talking about the legality of rape. He was comparing the people who blame marten for allowing the cheating to happen because he streamed to the people who blame the girl for being rape because she wore short skirts. People are blaming the victim for the cheating (people blaming the girl for the rape) instead of going after the cheater (the rapist).
So, if murder wasn't illegal would that still make it right? You are saying that because it was not illegal it was alright if he cheated. In some countries, there are no laws against taking child brides. Does that make it ok because there is no laws against it?
Just because it's not in the rules (laws) doesn't make it ok to cheat.
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On December 05 2013 04:01 Zdrastochye wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2013 00:30 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:On December 04 2013 20:05 Zdrastochye wrote:
So all of this could have been avoided with Marten either putting on a longer delay, or not streaming at all. Really that's where the blame ends, Diamond may have possibly been unsportsmanlike, but he broke not a single rule in the tournament. Just because no rule exists because they don't think their rules through does not make it okay. If a tournament in StarCraft forgets to add "no maphack" to their rulebook does that suddenly make it ok to maphack? If the monopoly rulebook says nothing about stealing from the bank is it now acceptable to steal from the bank? Have some common fucking sense. The reaction from ESL is laughable and so are a lot of comments like yours in this thread. Some of these reactions are similar to imbeciles telling a raped girl not to wear a skirt next time. It's so absurd. Yes it could have been avoided that should not be the point of focus here at all. Actually yeah, if a major league tournament organizer (does ESL qualify?) doesn't point out in its rules that attempting to observe the other player is grounds for disqualification, then sticking to the rules but using anything else to gain an advantage is fair play. If they change the rule after this match so that streamcheating is illegal, they should pursue this matter and see if they can stop it from happening again. If they do nothing then the onus is on the streamers, not on those watching his stream. Taken from the ESL website: Show nested quote +2.3. Cheating
All forms of cheating in ESL matches are forbidden and will be penalized by the Electronic Sports League.
Players found cheating outside of the ESL may be barraged on the ESL depending on the evidence available. Note, we do not accept publicly submitted demo or screenshot evidence in these cases.
Should it become known to the ESL administrators that any form of cheating was used to the advantage of a player or a team during an ESL match, the ESL reserves the right to punish them to the full extent of the rules available. By breaking any rule a player risks being barred or completely excluded from a specific league or from all leagues. This also includes their team. Source: http://www.esl.eu/eu/rules/So according to their own rules, they have been informed of what occurred, and it's up to their admins to declare if Diamond cheated or not, and no matter how many great points people think they have brought up in this thread, nothing is going to change because of it. If they view him as a cheater then this could be the last ESL event he plays in, but it's not for any of us to say. Edit for Nazgul: Rape apologist comparison for stream cheating, not quite sure if that's accurate.
It's not about comparing rape to cheating. It's about showing the ludicrousness of some of these people blaming the victim. I could any other analogy to show the ridiculousness of these people arguments.
It's like blaming the owner of a car that got stolen because he parked it a bad neighborhood. Blaming the victim instead of going after the perpetrator is very strange to me.
Cheating apologist's actions have the same concept in the actions of rape apologists. They blame the victim for the rape. People here are blaming the victim for the cheating.
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Nvm, not getting involved in this.
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FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
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Well rape is not illegal in some countries so his comparison would work in that case. The point being that even if it does not say that it is against the rules it is still shitty.
It is like saying your Poker tournament has no rules about just walking over to the opponents side and looking at his cards. It is idiotic to suggest such a rule even needs saying. It is like saying Soccer has no rule against killing your opponent.
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2.3. Cheating
All forms of cheating in ESL matches are forbidden and will be penalized by the Electronic Sports League.
Players found cheating outside of the ESL may be barraged on the ESL depending on the evidence available. Note, we do not accept publicly submitted demo or screenshot evidence in these cases.
Should it become known to the ESL administrators that any form of cheating was used to the advantage of a player or a team during an ESL match, the ESL reserves the right to punish them to the full extent of the rules available. By breaking any rule a player risks being barred or completely excluded from a specific league or from all leagues. This also includes their team.
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It would be so easy for the ESL to just include ghosting into "any form of cheating", it´s really not a big stretch and if they
can´t even do that every tournament they host is just laughable.
WHAT exactly they are willing to accept as a proof that someone was ghosting is totally up to them and i agree that a screenshot can be faked and might not work as a proof (even though in this case it is very very very unlikely that someone has faked that screenshot).
But there at least has to be the POSSIBILITY of punishing someone who is streamcheating, if that doesn´t even exists, it´s just an invitation for ghosting.
Players at least have to fear that they COULD be punished for ghosting, if they know there is no way of getting a penatly for this it´s a huge difference and makes the whole tournament a complete joke.
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On December 05 2013 00:30 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 20:05 Zdrastochye wrote:
So all of this could have been avoided with Marten either putting on a longer delay, or not streaming at all. Really that's where the blame ends, Diamond may have possibly been unsportsmanlike, but he broke not a single rule in the tournament. Just because no rule exists because they don't think their rules through does not make it okay. If a tournament in StarCraft forgets to add "no maphack" to their rulebook does that suddenly make it ok to maphack? If the monopoly rulebook says nothing about stealing from the bank is it now acceptable to steal from the bank? Have some common fucking sense. The reaction from ESL is laughable and so are a lot of comments like yours in this thread. Some of these reactions are similar to imbeciles telling a raped girl not to wear a skirt next time. It's so absurd. Yes it could have been avoided that should not be the point of focus here at all.
The bolded part was my instant reaction as well... I don't know why people are saying it's the OP's fault. You want esports to spread but you're not allowed to broadcast it for fear of getting cheated out of a win.
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One could argue that in a slow paced / turn based game like Hearthstone the op is actually cheating too by reading his own stream chat. They discuss the game, bounce ideas etc giving him an advantage over somebody who is just playing on his own.
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On December 06 2013 01:13 Kenpark wrote:
One could argue that in a slow paced / turn based game like Hearthstone the op is actually cheating too by reading his own stream chat. They discuss the game, bounce ideas etc giving him an advantage over somebody who is just playing on his own.
You are the worst at logic.
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On December 06 2013 01:13 Kenpark wrote:
One could argue that in a slow paced / turn based game like Hearthstone the op is actually cheating too by reading his own stream chat. They discuss the game, bounce ideas etc giving him an advantage over somebody who is just playing on his own.
Sure, the stream chat helps a lot with a delay of 90s. The stream audience just needs to timewarp 90s ahead or guess the opponent play and the cards drawn correctly ...
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On December 05 2013 00:30 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 20:05 Zdrastochye wrote:
So all of this could have been avoided with Marten either putting on a longer delay, or not streaming at all. Really that's where the blame ends, Diamond may have possibly been unsportsmanlike, but he broke not a single rule in the tournament. Just because no rule exists because they don't think their rules through does not make it okay. If a tournament in StarCraft forgets to add "no maphack" to their rulebook does that suddenly make it ok to maphack? If the monopoly rulebook says nothing about stealing from the bank is it now acceptable to steal from the bank? Have some common fucking sense. The reaction from ESL is laughable and so are a lot of comments like yours in this thread. Some of these reactions are similar to imbeciles telling a raped girl not to wear a skirt next time. It's so absurd. Yes it could have been avoided that should not be the point of focus here at all.
Comparing something as trivial as stream ghosting to rape is insane and and incredibly disrespectful to real rape victims. I also assume people in this thread aren't saying its okay to "stream cheat" but rather that it could easily been prevented by martinJ. Its like when you run into the store to make a quick errand and skip locking your bike and someone steals it. While its not okay to steal it, the victim purposely put himself at risk and could easily have prevented it from happening. Nobody is defending diamond (well maybe a select few), just pointing out that streaming carries a certain risk and you can't be to surprised if someone takes advantage.
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On December 06 2013 04:21 Phisk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2013 00:30 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:On December 04 2013 20:05 Zdrastochye wrote:
So all of this could have been avoided with Marten either putting on a longer delay, or not streaming at all. Really that's where the blame ends, Diamond may have possibly been unsportsmanlike, but he broke not a single rule in the tournament. Just because no rule exists because they don't think their rules through does not make it okay. If a tournament in StarCraft forgets to add "no maphack" to their rulebook does that suddenly make it ok to maphack? If the monopoly rulebook says nothing about stealing from the bank is it now acceptable to steal from the bank? Have some common fucking sense. The reaction from ESL is laughable and so are a lot of comments like yours in this thread. Some of these reactions are similar to imbeciles telling a raped girl not to wear a skirt next time. It's so absurd. Yes it could have been avoided that should not be the point of focus here at all. Comparing something as trivial as stream ghosting to rape is insane and and incredibly disrespectful to real rape victims. I also assume people in this thread aren't saying its okay to "stream cheat" but rather that it could easily been prevented by martinJ. Its like when you run into the store to make a quick errand and skip locking your bike and someone steals it. While its not okay to steal it, the victim purposely put himself at risk and could easily have prevented it from happening. Nobody is defending diamond (well maybe a select few), just pointing out that streaming carries a certain risk and you can't be to surprised if someone takes advantage.
I dunno, the way I see it is, people know martinJ made a mistake. I don't think most people here disagree with each other, some people are just being vocal that they think the wrong person is being scrutinized. And I agree. So he fucked up by streaming, but what Diamond did was worse.
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Not reading any other posts but just saying it's your fault if you stream with insufficient delay playing a tournament. You can't really blame anyone else than yourself (not commenting on wether he was ghosting or not)!
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On December 06 2013 04:21 Phisk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2013 00:30 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:On December 04 2013 20:05 Zdrastochye wrote:
So all of this could have been avoided with Marten either putting on a longer delay, or not streaming at all. Really that's where the blame ends, Diamond may have possibly been unsportsmanlike, but he broke not a single rule in the tournament. Just because no rule exists because they don't think their rules through does not make it okay. If a tournament in StarCraft forgets to add "no maphack" to their rulebook does that suddenly make it ok to maphack? If the monopoly rulebook says nothing about stealing from the bank is it now acceptable to steal from the bank? Have some common fucking sense. The reaction from ESL is laughable and so are a lot of comments like yours in this thread. Some of these reactions are similar to imbeciles telling a raped girl not to wear a skirt next time. It's so absurd. Yes it could have been avoided that should not be the point of focus here at all. Comparing something as trivial as stream ghosting to rape is insane and and incredibly disrespectful to real rape victims. I also assume people in this thread aren't saying its okay to "stream cheat" but rather that it could easily been prevented by martinJ. Its like when you run into the store to make a quick errand and skip locking your bike and someone steals it. While its not okay to steal it, the victim purposely put himself at risk and could easily have prevented it from happening.
Magnitude doesn't actually change logic. Rape is obviously a more serious matter, but it's also a crime where it is very common, though deplorable, to blame the victim. Leaving your bike unlocked is actually a good example of this. It's still illegal, and you're still not in the wrong to have left it unlocked. Or not used a strong enough lock. Or gone to a store in that neighborhood. Or whatever. Sure, you did things that enabled the crime to happen, but it certainly isn't your fault. The victim is still the victim, the perpetrator is still the perpetrator, and the tournament organizers should punish him under the catch-all anti-cheat rule.
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On December 05 2013 00:30 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 20:05 Zdrastochye wrote:
So all of this could have been avoided with Marten either putting on a longer delay, or not streaming at all. Really that's where the blame ends, Diamond may have possibly been unsportsmanlike, but he broke not a single rule in the tournament. Just because no rule exists because they don't think their rules through does not make it okay. If a tournament in StarCraft forgets to add "no maphack" to their rulebook does that suddenly make it ok to maphack? If the monopoly rulebook says nothing about stealing from the bank is it now acceptable to steal from the bank? Have some common fucking sense. The reaction from ESL is laughable and so are a lot of comments like yours in this thread. Some of these reactions are similar to imbeciles telling a raped girl not to wear a skirt next time. It's so absurd. Yes it could have been avoided that should not be the point of focus here at all.
This is pretty much all that needs to be said here. So tired of reading these "Well there's no one to blame but yourself for having insufficient stream delay during a tournament" posts. Just because someone makes it possible to easily cheat does not make it okay to cheat, nor does it mean that the victim is the one at fault. It's shocking how many people aren't holding Diamondprox accountable just because his victim made it possible to easily cheat.
Robbing a house whose owners left its front door wide open is just as morally wrong as robbing a house with everything locked and a home-security system. Cheating on a test using answers that your teacher carelessly left on her desk is just as morally wrong as cheating on a test using answers that you painstakingly acquired through some complicated means. The analogies are endless.
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On December 06 2013 04:57 Yoav wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2013 04:21 Phisk wrote:On December 05 2013 00:30 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:On December 04 2013 20:05 Zdrastochye wrote:
So all of this could have been avoided with Marten either putting on a longer delay, or not streaming at all. Really that's where the blame ends, Diamond may have possibly been unsportsmanlike, but he broke not a single rule in the tournament. Just because no rule exists because they don't think their rules through does not make it okay. If a tournament in StarCraft forgets to add "no maphack" to their rulebook does that suddenly make it ok to maphack? If the monopoly rulebook says nothing about stealing from the bank is it now acceptable to steal from the bank? Have some common fucking sense. The reaction from ESL is laughable and so are a lot of comments like yours in this thread. Some of these reactions are similar to imbeciles telling a raped girl not to wear a skirt next time. It's so absurd. Yes it could have been avoided that should not be the point of focus here at all. Comparing something as trivial as stream ghosting to rape is insane and and incredibly disrespectful to real rape victims. I also assume people in this thread aren't saying its okay to "stream cheat" but rather that it could easily been prevented by martinJ. Its like when you run into the store to make a quick errand and skip locking your bike and someone steals it. While its not okay to steal it, the victim purposely put himself at risk and could easily have prevented it from happening. Magnitude doesn't actually change logic. Rape is obviously a more serious matter, but it's also a crime where it is very common, though deplorable, to blame the victim. Leaving your bike unlocked is actually a good example of this. It's still illegal, and you're still not in the wrong to have left it unlocked. Or not used a strong enough lock. Or gone to a store in that neighborhood. Or whatever. Sure, you did things that enabled the crime to happen, but it certainly isn't your fault. The victim is still the victim, the perpetrator is still the perpetrator, and the tournament organizers should punish him under the catch-all anti-cheat rule.
Blowing things completely out of proportion doesn't further the discussion in any way. Logic or not, its disrespectful and absurd. I agree the bike is a good example, thats why I used it. Just like you said, while the fault lies with the perpetrator, it could've easily been avoided which is the point most people in here are trying to make. If a son loses his expensive bike in that manner his father will blame him because the bike was expensive and the son was careless, even though the fault lies solely with the thief.
There's a swedish expression that goes "Tillfället gör boven", which translates into "opportunity makes the villain", which basically means that giving somebody an opportunity to commit a crime or break a rule can cause people who normally wouldn't actively seek these opportunities to still take it. It doesn't make it right to break the rules but if you want to be safe then you can't give people the opportunity to take advantage.
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On December 06 2013 04:57 Yoav wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2013 04:21 Phisk wrote:On December 05 2013 00:30 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:On December 04 2013 20:05 Zdrastochye wrote:
So all of this could have been avoided with Marten either putting on a longer delay, or not streaming at all. Really that's where the blame ends, Diamond may have possibly been unsportsmanlike, but he broke not a single rule in the tournament. Just because no rule exists because they don't think their rules through does not make it okay. If a tournament in StarCraft forgets to add "no maphack" to their rulebook does that suddenly make it ok to maphack? If the monopoly rulebook says nothing about stealing from the bank is it now acceptable to steal from the bank? Have some common fucking sense. The reaction from ESL is laughable and so are a lot of comments like yours in this thread. Some of these reactions are similar to imbeciles telling a raped girl not to wear a skirt next time. It's so absurd. Yes it could have been avoided that should not be the point of focus here at all. Comparing something as trivial as stream ghosting to rape is insane and and incredibly disrespectful to real rape victims. I also assume people in this thread aren't saying its okay to "stream cheat" but rather that it could easily been prevented by martinJ. Its like when you run into the store to make a quick errand and skip locking your bike and someone steals it. While its not okay to steal it, the victim purposely put himself at risk and could easily have prevented it from happening. Magnitude doesn't actually change logic. Rape is obviously a more serious matter, but it's also a crime where it is very common, though deplorable, to blame the victim. Leaving your bike unlocked is actually a good example of this. It's still illegal, and you're still not in the wrong to have left it unlocked. Or not used a strong enough lock. Or gone to a store in that neighborhood. Or whatever. Sure, you did things that enabled the crime to happen, but it certainly isn't your fault. The victim is still the victim, the perpetrator is still the perpetrator, and the tournament organizers should punish him under the catch-all anti-cheat rule.
Then lets stay with the logic thingie: Girls cant shut down rape by dressing another way. Streamcheating can be shut down by not streaming or pressing the delay up to 15 minutes.
I do not say that Diamond was acting correctly and / or should not be punished. OP could have just easily prevent all that, or shut it down after the 1st game at least. This is not finger pointing or whatever, just a simple fact.
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On December 06 2013 01:13 Kenpark wrote:
One could argue that in a slow paced / turn based game like Hearthstone the op is actually cheating too by reading his own stream chat. They discuss the game, bounce ideas etc giving him an advantage over somebody who is just playing on his own.
This is standard in card games...
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all these real life analogy to a VIDEO GAME is kind of laughable...
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I think it is fair to disqualify DiamondProx. What other intent would he have for opening the stream other than cheating? We already established he had the stream open. The rules don't allow for cheating... Seems like a rather easy case.
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Just as a comparison, what do you think would of happened if diamondprox would of done this in a professional lol game with money on the line? I'd be willing to bet he'd be out of the team preeetty fast, and the team facing punishment as well.
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I don't think a tournament organization is ever going to be so quick to regulate something so far outside the realm of their control such as player streaming. Even if they did act, the cleanest and most reasonable thing for them to do would probably be to ban streaming of tournament games altogether and ban competitors that stream their own games. Which I can't imagine is something that anybody wants to see happen.
Streaming (as in a personal stream) is not the integral part of playing the game or competing in a tournament. It is something that players choose to do on the side, and as such something that is their own responsibility to manage and control the risks of. You are not entitled to a risk-free personal stream of your tournament games, and you are not entitled to the tournament organizer's protection of your personal stream.
Nobody in this thread is trying to ignore the fact that the guy who stream cheated is an absolute dick of a player. But people who blame the OP for what happened are correct imho. If anything, it was the stream that potentially endangered the integrity of the tournament in the first place - he hurt both himself and the competition, and this should be a lesson for him to learn from.
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On December 06 2013 06:46 Kisstafer wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2013 01:13 Kenpark wrote:
One could argue that in a slow paced / turn based game like Hearthstone the op is actually cheating too by reading his own stream chat. They discuss the game, bounce ideas etc giving him an advantage over somebody who is just playing on his own. This is standard in card games...
Not really ... Except in team tournament in magic, I don't see any tournament where it's standard to have all your good friends behind you discussing every moves.
The other "bad" thing in HS tournament right now is that there is no time limit, so people can think for ages, thus decreasing the value of the "think fast" skill, which is important in tcg.
That being said, you can't really afford to ban players because they're streaming or they're on skype, and I don't know if there will be a lot of offline tournament in hearthstone, so we have to do with what we have 
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We're talking about a LoL pro player cheating in an amateur tournament and people focus on Mr Nobody being to blame for his mistake. That's like Bill Gates stealing someone's wallet and the newspapers writing 7 pages about the guy who left the car window open. That's how unreal and stupid this whole discussion is.
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i thought LoL players in teams arent allowed to stream hearthstone?
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On December 06 2013 10:02 Denzil wrote:
i thought LoL players in teams arent allowed to stream hearthstone?
LMAO. Diamondprox wasn't the one streaming. But as far as I know, you can stream Hearthstone as long as it is what is advertised on your stream (ie. You can't have your stream titled "League of Legends" or be affiliated with League of Legends, and then play another game while doing so). I'm not 100% sure about that though.
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On December 06 2013 04:21 Phisk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2013 00:30 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:On December 04 2013 20:05 Zdrastochye wrote:
So all of this could have been avoided with Marten either putting on a longer delay, or not streaming at all. Really that's where the blame ends, Diamond may have possibly been unsportsmanlike, but he broke not a single rule in the tournament. Just because no rule exists because they don't think their rules through does not make it okay. If a tournament in StarCraft forgets to add "no maphack" to their rulebook does that suddenly make it ok to maphack? If the monopoly rulebook says nothing about stealing from the bank is it now acceptable to steal from the bank? Have some common fucking sense. The reaction from ESL is laughable and so are a lot of comments like yours in this thread. Some of these reactions are similar to imbeciles telling a raped girl not to wear a skirt next time. It's so absurd. Yes it could have been avoided that should not be the point of focus here at all. Comparing something as trivial as stream ghosting to rape is insane and and incredibly disrespectful to real rape victims. I also assume people in this thread aren't saying its okay to "stream cheat" but rather that it could easily been prevented by martinJ. Its like when you run into the store to make a quick errand and skip locking your bike and someone steals it. While its not okay to steal it, the victim purposely put himself at risk and could easily have prevented it from happening. Nobody is defending diamond (well maybe a select few), just pointing out that streaming carries a certain risk and you can't be to surprised if someone takes advantage.
As someone who had stuff stolen from me what you say is totally true. When it happens though it still hurts or at least bothers you a lot even if it's partially your fault for not taking the simple precaution. I'm not surprised the OP wanted to talk about it.
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On December 06 2013 09:29 Megingjard wrote:
We're talking about a LoL pro player cheating in an amateur tournament and people focus on Mr Nobody being to blame for his mistake. That's like Bill Gates stealing someone's wallet and the newspapers writing 7 pages about the guy who left the car window open.
That analogy is just as bad as the rape one.
If the focus of the thread was to discuss the behavior of a pro League player, then the thread should have been posted in the appropriate subforum, where people who have a reason to care about his background could discuss the issue from that perspective.
In the context of this thread and forum, this is a discussion on streaming tournament games and stream cheating in general. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people posting in the thread never heard of the guy before, and merely glanced over the fact that he's a professional in a different game as it isn't something that's relevant to the discussion going on here.
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As long as streaming is not outruled by the tournament organisators, you should refrain from calling it stream "cheating". When it is allowed by the admins, it's more like "clever use of stream mechanics".
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I think you got some responsibility for this but he definitly should be punished as well.
ESL admin should think about what does the tournament stands for, the idea behind it and what kind of tournament reputation they want to established
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On December 06 2013 19:49 UglyBastard wrote:
As long as streaming is not outruled by the tournament organisators, you should refrain from calling it stream "cheating". When it is allowed by the admins, it's more like "clever use of stream mechanics".
You must be joking.
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On December 06 2013 19:50 ETisME wrote:
I think you got some responsibility for this but he definitly should be punished as well.
ESL admin should think about what does the tournament stands for, the idea behind it and what kind of tournament reputation they want to established
ESL admins needs to think about tournament rules, and no tournament rules have been broken here. Admins acting on their own subjective impulses is not a road any serious organization will take - especially not over streaming-related issues that they have no real way to control and police effectively.
If you punish one guy for stream cheating, you're going to get swarmed with a dozen new accusations next time you run a tournament, with evidence that will almost never be conclusive. You're going to have to make case by case decisions, and you're always going to look inconsistent and unfair in the judgement calls you make, and every now and then you're going to make a wrong choice and punish someone who didn't do anything wrong. And all that because some players decided to show tournament games on their personal stream?
There are only two real solutions here on the organizer's end - either ban players from streaming tournament games, or let them be responsible for protecting themselves from any disadvantages or risks associated with streaming (ie leave it as it is right now).
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On December 06 2013 22:28 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2013 19:50 ETisME wrote:
I think you got some responsibility for this but he definitly should be punished as well.
ESL admin should think about what does the tournament stands for, the idea behind it and what kind of tournament reputation they want to established ESL admins needs to think about tournament rules, and no tournament rules have been broken here. Admins acting on their own subjective impulses is not a road any serious organization will take - especially not over streaming-related issues that they have no real way to control and police effectively. If you punish one guy for stream cheating, you're going to get swarmed with a dozen new accusations next time you run a tournament, with evidence that will almost never be conclusive. You're going to have to make case by case decisions, and you're always going to look inconsistent and unfair in the judgement calls you make, and every now and then you're going to make a wrong choice and punish someone who didn't do anything wrong. And all that because some players decided to show tournament games on their personal stream? There are only two real solutions here on the organizer's end - either ban players from streaming tournament games, or let them be responsible for protecting themselves from any disadvantages or risks associated with streaming (ie leave it as it is right now).
This is what it comes down to. Please no more rape analogies (or analogies of any other kind).
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On December 06 2013 22:28 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2013 19:50 ETisME wrote:
I think you got some responsibility for this but he definitly should be punished as well.
ESL admin should think about what does the tournament stands for, the idea behind it and what kind of tournament reputation they want to established ESL admins needs to think about tournament rules, and no tournament rules have been broken here. Admins acting on their own subjective impulses is not a road any serious organization will take - especially not over streaming-related issues that they have no real way to control and police effectively. If you punish one guy for stream cheating, you're going to get swarmed with a dozen new accusations next time you run a tournament, with evidence that will almost never be conclusive. You're going to have to make case by case decisions, and you're always going to look inconsistent and unfair in the judgement calls you make, and every now and then you're going to make a wrong choice and punish someone who didn't do anything wrong. And all that because some players decided to show tournament games on their personal stream? There are only two real solutions here on the organizer's end - either ban players from streaming tournament games, or let them be responsible for protecting themselves from any disadvantages or risks associated with streaming (ie leave it as it is right now).
I understand what you're saying, but this game is not so different from Starcraft 2 in this sense. And I'm 99% sure streamcheating is banned there. I'm not saying they can properly enforce the rule, but it should be a rule regardless. If only to discourage it, and maybe to punish the very rare occasions where there is hard evidence.
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Diamondprox has always been a dick but honestly it's your fault. You wouldn't show your hands using a mirror to your opponent when playing poker, so why do it here?
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Most SC2 tournaments have rules against that and the ESL should definitely implement them in Hearthstone. Still not a single starcraft player would ever stream without delay in a tournament that involves money and no coverage is gonna stream an online tournament without delay. It even got to the point where big tournaments rather cast from replays. People learned that 3 years ago. There is always gonna be some guy trying to get an advantage especially when money is involved.
Don't know why we have start over from 0 in hearthstone. It's like everyone shut their eyes for the last 5 years. Learn from previous experience please instead of being surprised and unprepared for this. Both leagues and streamers.
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On December 06 2013 19:45 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2013 09:29 Megingjard wrote:
We're talking about a LoL pro player cheating in an amateur tournament and people focus on Mr Nobody being to blame for his mistake. That's like Bill Gates stealing someone's wallet and the newspapers writing 7 pages about the guy who left the car window open. That analogy is just as bad as the rape one. If the focus of the thread was to discuss the behavior of a pro League player, then the thread should have been posted in the appropriate subforum, where people who have a reason to care about his background could discuss the issue from that perspective. In the context of this thread and forum, this is a discussion on streaming tournament games and stream cheating in general. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people posting in the thread never heard of the guy before, and merely glanced over the fact that he's a professional in a different game as it isn't something that's relevant to the discussion going on here.
No it's not. Keep saying OP made a mistake by streaming with no delay though, I'm not sure we got it yet.
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Reading this thread really makes me think, if you play a ladder game of starcraft 2 and the opponent maphacks, are you to blame because you played the game and knew someone would be able to do it? 
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On December 07 2013 01:06 Cephiro wrote:Reading this thread really makes me think, if you play a ladder game of starcraft 2 and the opponent maphacks, are you to blame because you played the game and knew someone would be able to do it?
its more like opening maphack for opponent and asking him not to use it, ye, its your fault
On December 05 2013 00:30 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 20:05 Zdrastochye wrote:
So all of this could have been avoided with Marten either putting on a longer delay, or not streaming at all. Really that's where the blame ends, Diamond may have possibly been unsportsmanlike, but he broke not a single rule in the tournament. Just because no rule exists because they don't think their rules through does not make it okay. If a tournament in StarCraft forgets to add "no maphack" to their rulebook does that suddenly make it ok to maphack? If the monopoly rulebook says nothing about stealing from the bank is it now acceptable to steal from the bank? Have some common fucking sense. The reaction from ESL is laughable and so are a lot of comments like yours in this thread. Some of these reactions are similar to imbeciles telling a raped girl not to wear a skirt next time. It's so absurd. Yes it could have been avoided that should not be the point of focus here at all.
Maphacking is forbidden by blizzard eula, monopoly book states bank rules and rape is a crime defined by law, this is hilarious
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On December 07 2013 01:26 Artok wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2013 01:06 Cephiro wrote:Reading this thread really makes me think, if you play a ladder game of starcraft 2 and the opponent maphacks, are you to blame because you played the game and knew someone would be able to do it? its more like opening maphack for opponent and asking him not to use it, ye, its your fault Show nested quote +On December 05 2013 00:30 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:On December 04 2013 20:05 Zdrastochye wrote:
So all of this could have been avoided with Marten either putting on a longer delay, or not streaming at all. Really that's where the blame ends, Diamond may have possibly been unsportsmanlike, but he broke not a single rule in the tournament. Just because no rule exists because they don't think their rules through does not make it okay. If a tournament in StarCraft forgets to add "no maphack" to their rulebook does that suddenly make it ok to maphack? If the monopoly rulebook says nothing about stealing from the bank is it now acceptable to steal from the bank? Have some common fucking sense. The reaction from ESL is laughable and so are a lot of comments like yours in this thread. Some of these reactions are similar to imbeciles telling a raped girl not to wear a skirt next time. It's so absurd. Yes it could have been avoided that should not be the point of focus here at all. Maphacking is forbidden by blizzard eula, monopoly book states bank rules and rape is a crime defined by law, this is hilarious
Tournament organizers are not responsible for enforcing Blizzard's EULA. If organizers left out map hacking in the rules, the same argument could be made, "it is not against the rules, so they are not at fault". I guess in this case, if we were to go by ESL's rules, map hacking would fall under general "no cheating" rules, kind of like being able to see your opponent's hand and draws and hear their thought processes each turn. But according to ESL, this was not cheating.
Also, there is nothing in the monopoly rule book concerning stealing from the bank. So go ahead and steal! It's not against the rules after all.
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Would be funny to see a similar thread where the ofender was a nobody and not some LoL Hero with thousands of fanboys.
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On December 06 2013 19:49 UglyBastard wrote:
As long as streaming is not outruled by the tournament organisators, you should refrain from calling it stream "cheating". When it is allowed by the admins, it's more like "clever use of stream mechanics".
I think you are just bait trolling. But thats probably what a lot of cheaters think. They are being "clever" or something. I really never understood why people cheat, but it must be the same logic right?
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On December 06 2013 04:21 Phisk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2013 00:30 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:On December 04 2013 20:05 Zdrastochye wrote:
So all of this could have been avoided with Marten either putting on a longer delay, or not streaming at all. Really that's where the blame ends, Diamond may have possibly been unsportsmanlike, but he broke not a single rule in the tournament. Just because no rule exists because they don't think their rules through does not make it okay. If a tournament in StarCraft forgets to add "no maphack" to their rulebook does that suddenly make it ok to maphack? If the monopoly rulebook says nothing about stealing from the bank is it now acceptable to steal from the bank? Have some common fucking sense. The reaction from ESL is laughable and so are a lot of comments like yours in this thread. Some of these reactions are similar to imbeciles telling a raped girl not to wear a skirt next time. It's so absurd. Yes it could have been avoided that should not be the point of focus here at all. Comparing something as trivial as stream ghosting to rape is insane and and incredibly disrespectful to real rape victims. I also assume people in this thread aren't saying its okay to "stream cheat" but rather that it could easily been prevented by martinJ. Its like when you run into the store to make a quick errand and skip locking your bike and someone steals it. While its not okay to steal it, the victim purposely put himself at risk and could easily have prevented it from happening. Nobody is defending diamond (well maybe a select few), just pointing out that streaming carries a certain risk and you can't be to surprised if someone takes advantage.
I don't think you understand the nature of the comparison. The comparison is the reactions of people blaming a victim, not the acts themselves. Should be pretty obvious unless you're actively looking for drama.
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new twist in the story:
"Quarterfinals? please.)
We were sitting in skype with friends and one of us knew german, so he was translating all the shit he was talking about me and the things that were in his chat. And we were trolling and laughing so fucking loud that i dont really know, how our media director Michael was sleeping near to me xD"
http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/1sh3r0/gg_benq_diamond_ama/cdxig68
LOL.
not sure what to say about that. He uploaded the screenshot himself, and now hes like "we were trolling" seriously, that's your excuse?
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"i watched your stream, but just for fun"
Where was this stated. You posted a wrong link.
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On December 07 2013 21:11 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2013 04:21 Phisk wrote:On December 05 2013 00:30 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:On December 04 2013 20:05 Zdrastochye wrote:
So all of this could have been avoided with Marten either putting on a longer delay, or not streaming at all. Really that's where the blame ends, Diamond may have possibly been unsportsmanlike, but he broke not a single rule in the tournament. Just because no rule exists because they don't think their rules through does not make it okay. If a tournament in StarCraft forgets to add "no maphack" to their rulebook does that suddenly make it ok to maphack? If the monopoly rulebook says nothing about stealing from the bank is it now acceptable to steal from the bank? Have some common fucking sense. The reaction from ESL is laughable and so are a lot of comments like yours in this thread. Some of these reactions are similar to imbeciles telling a raped girl not to wear a skirt next time. It's so absurd. Yes it could have been avoided that should not be the point of focus here at all. Comparing something as trivial as stream ghosting to rape is insane and and incredibly disrespectful to real rape victims. I also assume people in this thread aren't saying its okay to "stream cheat" but rather that it could easily been prevented by martinJ. Its like when you run into the store to make a quick errand and skip locking your bike and someone steals it. While its not okay to steal it, the victim purposely put himself at risk and could easily have prevented it from happening. Nobody is defending diamond (well maybe a select few), just pointing out that streaming carries a certain risk and you can't be to surprised if someone takes advantage. I don't think you understand the nature of the comparison. The comparison is the reactions of people blaming a victim, not the acts themselves. Should be pretty obvious unless you're actively looking for drama.
The freedoms people have to give up to avoid getting raped are nowhere near as trivial and obvious as not streaming tournament games with insufficient delay, and rape is explicitly a crime while watching your opponent's stream isn't mentioned anywhere in the rules, as far as I have seen. And when your analogy doesn't match either the scale or nature of the situation, the analogy is of very little worth. That someone doesn't deserve blame, if victim of an actual and heinous crime because she made no other mistake than wanting to move about in public space unmolested, sheds very little light on this situation.
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On December 10 2013 18:14 martenJ wrote:new twist in the story: "Quarterfinals? please.) We were sitting in skype with friends and one of us knew german, so he was translating all the shit he was talking about me and the things that were in his chat. And we were trolling and laughing so fucking loud that i dont really know, how our media director Michael was sleeping near to me xD" http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/1sh3r0/gg_benq_diamond_ama/cdxig68LOL. not sure what to say about that. He uploaded the screenshot himself, and now hes like "we were trolling" seriously, that's your excuse?
Is it possible you are so blinded by your rage that you dont see what he is saying there? He is implying that he uploaded a screenshot that made it look like he was ghosting on purpose, to take the piss out of you. And you took the bait hook, line and sinker.
Before when he was taking super long turns it was probably done to make it look super obvious and rile you up. Then they were translating everything you said and laughed their asses off. With this thread you have given them even more comedy material.
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So there we have it.
He just pretended to watch your stream to make you mad. And looks like he succeeded. I guess that wraps up the whole deal, he wasn't ghosting you but just making a joke. It would be time for martenJ to apologize now, but somehow I think that won't happen.
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On December 10 2013 20:27 UglyBastard wrote:
So there we have it.
He just pretended to watch your stream to make you mad. And looks like he succeeded. I guess that wraps up the whole deal, he wasn't ghosting you but just making a joke. It would be time for martenJ to apologize now, but somehow I think that won't happen.
Dont think you should apologize for being the victim of a prank lol.
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No he should apologize for public name calling and suggesting that diamondprox would "cheat". That is really bad sportsmanship by martenJ, and now that his opponent revealed the truth about the incident (he was not actually watching the stream, just had it open and pretended to do it to make a joke) it would be the right time to show some humility.
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Still no one addressed the fact that streaming without delay "for chat interaction" is a freakin form of cheating if viewers are telling you plays you missed in the chat and ure making their plays instead
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On December 10 2013 20:35 UglyBastard wrote:
No he should apologize for public name calling and suggesting that diamondprox would "cheat". That is really bad sportsmanship by martenJ, and now that his opponent revealed the truth about the incident (he was not actually watching the stream, just had it open and pretended to do it to make a joke) it would be the right time to show some humility.
and who tells us that Mr. Scumbag Diamondprox does not make that story up because he just was to stupid to upload that screenshot?
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So... the drama isn't over yet?
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On December 10 2013 20:43 1nfamous wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2013 20:35 UglyBastard wrote:
No he should apologize for public name calling and suggesting that diamondprox would "cheat". That is really bad sportsmanship by martenJ, and now that his opponent revealed the truth about the incident (he was not actually watching the stream, just had it open and pretended to do it to make a joke) it would be the right time to show some humility. and who tells us that Mr. Scumbag Diamondprox does not make that story up because he just was to stupid to upload that screenshot?
We dont know one way or the other. But with how he OP describes it with the obvious super long turns and loading up this super obvious screen shot after he had already been accused of watching the stream makes doing it on purpose the much more likely explanation.
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On December 10 2013 19:49 Redox wrote:
Is it possible you are so blinded by your rage that you dont see what he is saying there? He is implying that he uploaded a screenshot that made it look like he was ghosting on purpose, to take the piss out of you. And you took the bait hook, line and sinker.
Before when he was taking super long turns it was probably done to make it look super obvious and rile you up. Then they were translating everything you said and laughed their asses off. With this thread you have given them even more comedy material.
yes,
I understand what he's trying to say. Obv there's a non-zero chance that that is what happened, but I'm quite sure he was just cheating:
- I'm just a random dude he doesn't know. Why would you do that to a person you don't know? If I wanna make fun of a guy I'd chose a celebrity or a friend.
- Before the match started I mentioned multiple times that I feel honored playing him, I gave him no reason at all to troll me.
- He played really, really slowly literally from turn one game one onwards. Afterwards I said on stream that he might be watching my stream. Not the other way around.
- I gave him the chance to explain himself when I asked him if hes watching my stream after game two
- He changed his name on ESL after I officially protested.
- We played in the QF, but he uploaded the screenshot vs me in for the SF match. Chances are pretty high that I would not see it, in fact I wouldn't have looked at it if no one had sent me the link.
- Seems really risky to do that in an official tournament. He has a lot to lose (his e-sports career) and nothing to gain.
- He has a pretty poor reputation in the LoL community.
- If someone on skype was translating what I am saying why would he open my stream? The chat was in German as well FWIW. He wasn't just taking a quick screenshot to troll me, he had my stream open for quite some time.
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On December 10 2013 21:00 martenJ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2013 19:49 Redox wrote:
Is it possible you are so blinded by your rage that you dont see what he is saying there? He is implying that he uploaded a screenshot that made it look like he was ghosting on purpose, to take the piss out of you. And you took the bait hook, line and sinker.
Before when he was taking super long turns it was probably done to make it look super obvious and rile you up. Then they were translating everything you said and laughed their asses off. With this thread you have given them even more comedy material. yes, I understand what he's trying to say. Obv there's a non-zero chance that that is what happened, but I'm quite sure he was just cheating: - I'm just a random dude he doesn't know. Why would you do that to a person you don't know? If I wanna make fun of a guy I'd chose a celebrity or a friend. - Before the match started I mentioned multiple times that I feel honored playing him, I gave him no reason at all to troll me.
For some this might be a pretty good reason to troll you.
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On December 10 2013 19:49 Redox wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2013 18:14 martenJ wrote:new twist in the story: "Quarterfinals? please.) We were sitting in skype with friends and one of us knew german, so he was translating all the shit he was talking about me and the things that were in his chat. And we were trolling and laughing so fucking loud that i dont really know, how our media director Michael was sleeping near to me xD" http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/1sh3r0/gg_benq_diamond_ama/cdxig68LOL. not sure what to say about that. He uploaded the screenshot himself, and now hes like "we were trolling" seriously, that's your excuse? Is it possible you are so blinded by your rage that you dont see what he is saying there? He is implying that he uploaded a screenshot that made it look like he was ghosting on purpose, to take the piss out of you. And you took the bait hook, line and sinker. Before when he was taking super long turns it was probably done to make it look super obvious and rile you up. Then they were translating everything you said and laughed their asses off. With this thread you have given them even more comedy material.
Your interpretation is a leap at best. Nowhere in those lines or in between them is there an implication that he was ghosting on purpose, let alone not actually doing it. If he was watching the stream together with people translating, he was getting an advantage from it. Something that he should not have done, as gaining an advantage through stream-cheating is, tadaa, cheating. Equally despicable.
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On December 10 2013 20:35 UglyBastard wrote:
No he should apologize for public name calling and suggesting that diamondprox would "cheat". That is really bad sportsmanship by martenJ, and now that his opponent revealed the truth about the incident (he was not actually watching the stream, just had it open and pretended to do it to make a joke) it would be the right time to show some humility.
On December 10 2013 20:27 UglyBastard wrote:
So there we have it.
He just pretended to watch your stream to make you mad. And looks like he succeeded. I guess that wraps up the whole deal, he wasn't ghosting you but just making a joke. It would be time for martenJ to apologize now, but somehow I think that won't happen.
Are you guys fucking high? I read the thread twice, trying to find anything that martenJ could vaguely apologize for, but I am still at lost. There are two possible scenarios, but if either of them is valid, there is only one possible - and very simple - conclusion: Diamondprox is a massive asshole. Noone should ever apologize to a person behaving like him and he should be kicked off by the community. He either cheated or bullied an oponent in a tournament. Neither of these actions has any place in a competitive enviroment. If he wants to act like that, he should just screw around with friends in public games.
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kind of reminds me of the south park episode where scott tennerman sells eric his pubes and keeps screwing him
i'd just let it go, in the end hes just "some random guy" on the internet (famous in lol,-lol) theres jerks everywhere and you are just wasting your time. even if you mysteriously managed to get him to eat his own parents in a chili con carneval αs revenge, another 5 eighteen year oldjerks are there to take his place and wathc your stream
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Wait people actually believe he didn't really stream cheat and he was just pretending to cheat to troll someone?
If so there's this Nigerian prince I'd like to introduce you to, he has a lucrative business opportunity you might be interested in.
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On December 10 2013 21:42 opisska wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2013 20:35 UglyBastard wrote:
No he should apologize for public name calling and suggesting that diamondprox would "cheat". That is really bad sportsmanship by martenJ, and now that his opponent revealed the truth about the incident (he was not actually watching the stream, just had it open and pretended to do it to make a joke) it would be the right time to show some humility. Show nested quote +On December 10 2013 20:27 UglyBastard wrote:
So there we have it.
He just pretended to watch your stream to make you mad. And looks like he succeeded. I guess that wraps up the whole deal, he wasn't ghosting you but just making a joke. It would be time for martenJ to apologize now, but somehow I think that won't happen. Are you guys fucking high? I read the thread twice, trying to find anything that martenJ could vaguely apologize for, but I am still at lost. There are two possible scenarios, but if either of them is valid, there is only one possible - and very simple - conclusion: Diamondprox is a massive asshole. Noone should ever apologize to a person behaving like him and he should be kicked off by the community. He either cheated or bullied an oponent in a tournament. Neither of these actions has any place in a competitive enviroment. If he wants to act like that, he should just screw around with friends in public games.
^ After reading everything up to this point seriously this. He either got trolled or DP cheated and that's it. Don't see how it's MJ's fault that his opponent was a douche.
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On December 10 2013 22:44 RockIronrod wrote:
Wait people actually believe he didn't really stream cheat and he was just pretending to cheat to troll someone?
If so there's this Nigerian prince I'd like to introduce you to, he has a lucrative business opportunity you might be interested in.
100% this. "I swear honey, I was just giving the prostitute a ride to her car!"
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On December 10 2013 22:44 RockIronrod wrote:
Wait people actually believe he didn't really stream cheat and he was just pretending to cheat to troll someone?
If so there's this Nigerian prince I'd like to introduce you to, he has a lucrative business opportunity you might be interested in.
I don't believe even the fan boys he has posting here truly believe he didn't cheat. And to the fanbois saying the op is cheating because he can read other plays from his own stream chat; while I do agree that can be a form of cheating on a live stream, was the op waiting to play 90s ANY turn? much less every turn.
Saying it was "just a troll" is an idiot's defense, seriously that is the first, dumbest thing a person could think of; myself and I'm sure many others predicted he would come to this thread and say it was "just a troll."
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On December 10 2013 21:42 opisska wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2013 20:35 UglyBastard wrote:
No he should apologize for public name calling and suggesting that diamondprox would "cheat". That is really bad sportsmanship by martenJ, and now that his opponent revealed the truth about the incident (he was not actually watching the stream, just had it open and pretended to do it to make a joke) it would be the right time to show some humility. Show nested quote +On December 10 2013 20:27 UglyBastard wrote:
So there we have it.
He just pretended to watch your stream to make you mad. And looks like he succeeded. I guess that wraps up the whole deal, he wasn't ghosting you but just making a joke. It would be time for martenJ to apologize now, but somehow I think that won't happen. Are you guys fucking high? I read the thread twice, trying to find anything that martenJ could vaguely apologize for, but I am still at lost. There are two possible scenarios, but if either of them is valid, there is only one possible - and very simple - conclusion: Diamondprox is a massive asshole. Noone should ever apologize to a person behaving like him and he should be kicked off by the community. He either cheated or bullied an oponent in a tournament. Neither of these actions has any place in a competitive enviroment. If he wants to act like that, he should just screw around with friends in public games.
Agreed.
Whilst I'm inclined (based on all of the above) to believe that Diamondprox is, in fact, a stream cheater the alternative is that he decided to bully someone who was both slightly awed at his reputation as a player and a worthy opponent in the quarterfinals of a tournament. I don't see how either of those paints Diamond in a good light. He's either a cheater or an immature arse, neither of which is a good thing.
On December 10 2013 23:41 Crownlol wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2013 22:44 RockIronrod wrote:
Wait people actually believe he didn't really stream cheat and he was just pretending to cheat to troll someone?
If so there's this Nigerian prince I'd like to introduce you to, he has a lucrative business opportunity you might be interested in. 100% this. "I swear honey, I was just giving the prostitute a ride to her car!"
On the upside I think I could make a killing selling bridges to people around here.
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Sigh why can't you just let it go? You can't prove whether he did ghost or not. Just turn your stream off next time if you seriously can't accept a loss due to ghosting. It's the risk you take for streaming in a tournament. We can argue whether he is guilty or not all day long, in the end it can't be proven. It's your statement against his
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On December 10 2013 20:27 UglyBastard wrote:
So there we have it.
He just pretended to watch your stream to make you mad. And looks like he succeeded. I guess that wraps up the whole deal, he wasn't ghosting you but just making a joke. It would be time for martenJ to apologize now, but somehow I think that won't happen.
Either way, that guy is a dick and MartinJ has absolutely nothing to apologize for.
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It's not really that complicated, is it? Diamonprox cheated by ghosting and makes up a funny story how he was not cheating afterwards. You risk ghosting if you stream with no/too low delay, so don't do it. Still the cheater is to blame, not the victim. What is there to discuss?
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You forgot the part about Diamond getting his cock sucked dry by hundreds of fanboys on Reddit when he brushed the evidence away by saying "I was just trolling lololo xD^^"
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On December 11 2013 00:55 The_Unseen wrote:
You forgot the part about Diamond getting his cock sucked dry by hundreds of fanboys on Reddit when he brushed the evidence away by saying "I was just trolling lololo xD^^"
Just because I wanted to keep it g-rated.
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A fitting quote for everyone saying 'It's your fault for streaming"
"You're not wrong, you're (diamond) just an asshole"
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On December 10 2013 20:27 UglyBastard wrote:
So there we have it.
He just pretended to watch your stream to make you mad. And looks like he succeeded. I guess that wraps up the whole deal, he wasn't ghosting you but just making a joke. It would be time for martenJ to apologize now, but somehow I think that won't happen.
Holy shit! That was very conclusive proof.
Dude is still a piece of shit and there is still no proof that he didn't cheat. GG.
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Is this thread real life?
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On December 11 2013 03:38 willoc wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2013 20:27 UglyBastard wrote:
So there we have it.
He just pretended to watch your stream to make you mad. And looks like he succeeded. I guess that wraps up the whole deal, he wasn't ghosting you but just making a joke. It would be time for martenJ to apologize now, but somehow I think that won't happen. Holy shit! That was very conclusive proof. Dude is still a piece of shit and there is still no proof that he didn't cheat. GG.
Without trying to defend Diamond (dick move at the very least, and his "response" shows he is an ass) shouldn't that burden be on Martens instead?
In doubt for the defendant etc.?
Frankly I don't know nearly enough about hearthstone to say if someone is cheating or not (or even if cheating makes sense in this game, my total exposure has been about 30 minutes watching some people play during queues) but Martens post didn't include much evidence beyond a screenshot. He didn't list suspicious plays "he played XY card which was completely dumb unless he knew that I didn't have YZ ready to counter it".
Anyway, seems the entire mess can be summed up with "Diamond behaved like an ass at the very least".
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On December 10 2013 20:35 UglyBastard wrote:
No he should apologize for public name calling and suggesting that diamondprox would "cheat". That is really bad sportsmanship by martenJ, and now that his opponent revealed the truth about the incident (he was not actually watching the stream, just had it open and pretended to do it to make a joke) it would be the right time to show some humility.
Thats so funny to read. So, I did some bad shit, some friends took a picture of it. And when it gets leakd i just say "hahah u idiots, it was just setup to prank you[into believing it is true, which it is but i will just say it isnt which is the prank!..], ha! got you!" ??
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On December 11 2013 00:42 grs wrote:
It's not really that complicated, is it? Diamonprox cheated by ghosting and makes up a funny story how he was not cheating afterwards. You risk ghosting if you stream with no/too low delay, so don't do it. Still the cheater is to blame, not the victim. What is there to discuss?
This thread is (or perhaps never wasn't) about more than just the act of cheating. Regarding what actually happened, things are fairly straightforwards. Barring specific very low probability edge cases for scenarios like this, we can state with decent certainty that either A) there was stream-cheating, or in a substantially less likely but still plausible event, B) there was an attempt to appear to be stream-cheating. What does that mean for us? Well, we should be more suspicious of Diamondprox in the future. When we evaluate his actions going forward we should take into account the fact that he either stream-cheated or went to great effort to appear to be doing so. We update our prior assumptions based on this new evidence.
Where the crux of the issue lies, here and in other threads, is that this isn't about how we update our beliefs or how we should interpret new evidence going forward. It has to do with sides, and politics. Are you a MartinJ supporter or a Diamondprox supporter? Whose side are you on? After all, politics is war and arguments are soldiers. Accepting the possibility that the other side is right, or trying to evaluate things evenhandedly, is like stabbing your soldiers in the back-- providing aid and comfort to the enemy. People come to identify with a side in an argument, and this clouds their judgement. Although many people are not super invested and just come here to read this thread, there are plenty of people who are not here to be convinced.
I don't really know either of these guys, and it seems that neither do you-- but imagine for example that Diamondprox was your friend, or perhaps you're just a fan of his. You identify with him, you think of his actions in a positive light. When someone's a dick to you, they're a dick, but when you're a dick to someone else, you're having fun. By the same token, when Diamondprox does something bad, it's a lot easier to say "he didn't do anything bad" or to say "instead of weighing the high possibility he's lying, or even the non-zero possibility he's lying, I'm going to assume he's completely truthful". Updating your view of someone based on new evidence is difficult; rejecting new evidence is easy.
As you said, the moral of the story is that Diamondprox is almost certainly a dick, and streaming without delay is a profoundly bad risk to take.
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Witch hunts are dumb, but this guy was dumb enough to submit a screenshot of him cheating. If possible ofc he should be penalized. And next time just use a longer stream delay I guess.
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On December 11 2013 10:18 Tula wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2013 03:38 willoc wrote:On December 10 2013 20:27 UglyBastard wrote:
So there we have it.
He just pretended to watch your stream to make you mad. And looks like he succeeded. I guess that wraps up the whole deal, he wasn't ghosting you but just making a joke. It would be time for martenJ to apologize now, but somehow I think that won't happen. Holy shit! That was very conclusive proof. Dude is still a piece of shit and there is still no proof that he didn't cheat. GG. Without trying to defend Diamond (dick move at the very least, and his "response" shows he is an ass) shouldn't that burden be on Martens instead? In doubt for the defendant etc.? Frankly I don't know nearly enough about hearthstone to say if someone is cheating or not (or even if cheating makes sense in this game, my total exposure has been about 30 minutes watching some people play during queues) but Martens post didn't include much evidence beyond a screenshot. He didn't list suspicious plays "he played XY card which was completely dumb unless he knew that I didn't have YZ ready to counter it". Anyway, seems the entire mess can be summed up with "Diamond behaved like an ass at the very least".
I agree with you here, but I also think that enough proof was provided by the OP to show that Diamond did something that was a dick move. It's important to recognize what you're shooting for here. In this case, nothing can be done about the tournament, that's all there is to it. OP is trying to inform us of a high profile player doing something that isn't cool. He has evidence that while might not show conclusively what happened, shows enough that we can make a pretty informed opinion on Diamond's character. Diamond was even given the opportunity to respond and did it in a way that showed he clearly didn't have any respect for the allegations brought up anyway. That shows a disrespect for competition, and that is what I personally have the biggest problem with.
Take what you will from it. Personally I'm more insulted by the defenders of his actions trying to bully the OP further than anything else, but wont be supporting Diamond in any way from this point forward. If I have the opportunity, I'll likely be buying from the competitors of his team's sponsors.
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Great story. Compelling, and rich.
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not like he really needs money from this or anything
l0l
suck it the fuck up yo.
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EPT
