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Hi,
Sunday evening I was playing and streaming the ESL-cup.
I played mostly the Warlock aggro deck that everyone seems to be playing on ladder atm, but also had some other decks prepared.
I won my first two rounds, and then decided to restart the stream with 90 seconds delay on it.
I won four more rounds and then faced Diamondprox in the QFs. I was really, really excited to play a play a big e-sports celebrity (he's a Pro LoL player for team Gambit Gaming for those of you who don't know) in a big tournament like this.
Top 3 in this tournament get Razer gear, so this match is even more important.
I quickly double checked his ESL-profile and he has tons of tournaments wins with his LoL team on it, so it's the real Diamondprox!
I started game 1 with the Warlock deck again and he played Druid, a deck that did not expect. And then something weird happened, he played really slowly. Every single turn, I was like wtf? is he in a LoL game or what's going on?
Then I remembered that I had 90 seconds delay and the maximum time for a turn in Hearthstone is also 90 seconds. So if he's watching my stream, he has to play really slowly to gain maximum information.
I lost an extremely close game one, where I might have misplayed in this situation. I can just go for the kill here, but if he gets commander with the shield with Sylvanas I'm just dead.
So after the game I ask him if hes watching my stream, and he answers: "I know you're streaming but I'm not watching it"
Game two is also really close, and again he's playing really slowly. He even used his Coin on turn one and then took almost maximum time for turn two. Again, it doesn't make any sense to play this slowly if hes not watching my stream. If he's watching, it makes a lot of sense.
I won game two and decided to play Freshgaming's Mage Burn that he won TL Open #2 with in game three.
That was a pretty bad decision, i modified my deck on stream and challenged him, but he didn't accept the challenge right away.
After some time he did and he crushed me with Druid again. Game wasn't close at all and he played way quicker than before.
I raffled away a key and closed the stream. I tried to sleep, but couldn't because I had to think about the match vs Diamondprox and if he was ghosting me or not.
I restarted the PC checked emails and saw a twitch PM a viewer sent me. He had a look at the screenshots Diamond uploaded. For some reason for the SF match he uploaded the screenshot vs me by mistake.
http://imgur.com/O94ryqe
As you can see he's watching my stream in the background and he's been doing that for quite a while already, because there wasn't much chatting going on and the chat is full.
I was shocked!
He makes a lot of money playing League and has a sponsor so he can't even use the Razer gear. Why would he ghost me?
I had proof though.
I made a reddit post that quickly got deleted, because of the witch hunt rule. I removed all personal data and re-posted it, it got removed it again because (quote Mod) "now it's just a QQ post, without any information"
I had one more shot though! The ESL admins should care about cheating in their tournaments right? I wrote a match protest with all the relevant information. It got closed within an hour.
"Hello martenJ, hello Diamondprox,
There is nothing we can do about it. The streaming is up to anyone to do it. Maybe next time your best call is not stream it or give it a bigger delay."
thx admin :/
And, yes I learned my lesson. more delay next time
I wanna spread the word about this incident within the community. Any help appreciated.
TL;DR
- I stream ESL cup with 90 seconds delay
- in the QF i play Diamondprox
- He plays super slow in trivial spots
- I get suspicious
- I lose
- He uploads a screenshot vs me for his SF match
- The screenshots proofs that he was ghosting me
- reddit doesn't allow a discussion about it
- ESL admin says it's my fault
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There is a reason a witch hunt is prohibited on reddit.
While it was a bad move/unfair play from diamondprox, it wasn't illegal by the rules, and it IS your fault for streaming tournament games without sufficient delay.
As sad as it is for you, the ESL admins are right.
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It is unethical imo and I expect better sportsmanship, especially from a pro player like him
and regarding the witchhunt rules: yeah, i see why the have them. In this case i have proof though, it's not like its just random rumors
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In my mind, stream-cheating with proof should be dealt with as any instance of cheating. (Generally people aren't stupid enough to provide a screenshot of their proof.) The fact that ESL has not mentioned this in their streaming rules shows a major oversight. Now I know that ESL winners are probably just stream-cheaters, and pay no attention to them.
Secondly, this is especially pertinent in Hearthstone where the stream delay would need to be considerable. It's not just 1 turn, because you generally keep many cards for a long time, and it would be of crucial importance for your opponent to know if you're nurturing a pyroblast, or a consecrate, etc. This makes streaming games a great deal more difficult - you might not be able to cast any online games of hearthstone because both players can watch the cast and get invaluable information that wouldn't otherwise be available.
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If you play with your cards faced to the opponent while expecting to make money and to win is just retarded. Maybe its not good sportsmanship, but its definitely not cheating. Also a mod should close this topic imo.
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On December 03 2013 20:43 gingerfluffmuff wrote:
If you play with your cards faced to the opponent while expecting to make money and to win is just retarded. Maybe its not good sportsmanship, but its definitely not cheating. Also a mod should close this topic imo.
This. Its like you play a poker tournament with your pocket cards face up and then complain sb looked at them.
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so if you ever do anything to put yourself in a position to be victimised, the blame is 100% on you when it actually happens?
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On December 03 2013 20:50 martenJ wrote:
so if you ever do anything to put yourself in a position to be victimised, the blame is 100% on you when it actually happens?
I am really sorry for you if this is your main argument/answer. I guess just do sports or other related competitive stuff, maybe one day you will see.
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On December 03 2013 20:07 Keniji wrote:
There is a reason a witch hunt is prohibited on reddit.
While it was a bad move/unfair play from diamondprox, it wasn't illegal by the rules, and it IS your fault for streaming tournament games without sufficient delay.
As sad as it is for you, the ESL admins are right.
you are sort of confusing the definiton of witchhunting.witchhunting by definition means you are falsely accusing somebody of something without any evidence and try to turn people against him.when evidence is presented it is no longer a witch hunt.it is justice.the op has evidence of the dude stream cheating.albeit it is his fault for playing card games with stream on but still a guy such as diamond prox should know better.
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It would be great if you stopped your stupid whining martenJ, especially since its not the first time that you act that way. The last tournament I watched it was also you, who accused someone of "streamcheating" and got mad like some 12yr old (which was live on stream too, realy funny). If you decide to start a stream while you play a tournament, its YOUR fault and yours alone if someone watches this stream and gathers information from it. Don't want this? Stop streaming or cover your hand with an overlay.
Maybe next time when you play the ESL tournament for the thousand dollar prize pool (read: 3 months of ESL "Premium Membership") you will not have to deal with this then.
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MartenJ has only himself to blame in this case, however it's a shame that someone has to sink to such a low level as to streamcheat, especially a professional player.
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It's really silly, how blatant and ultimately foolish diamondprox behaved in this case.
Whether or not his behaviour is against the rules is really besides the point here; if he has any sportsmanship in him he should have his prizes awarded to the 4th place finisher and martenj.
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I think the ESL should take steps against this, Obviously its in their interest that people can watch the tournament, but that is only possible if players streams themselves. Even with 5 minutes delay you can still get an advantage from knowing some of your opponents cards.
In this case marten should have put a longer delay. But its really bad sportsmanship to abuse it and certainly someone who is a professional player should know better than that.
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To be honest, as someone as said, even with a bigger delay, it'd still be a problem, since even checking cards from a turn or two ago can be a great advantage.
However, if you're playing and you think your opponent is ghosting...why not temporaly turn down the stream? I know it can be a problem for viewers, but at least you avoid setting yourself up for these situations.
Edit: format (damn phone)
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Uh, I disagree with what seems to be the majority here. It is pretty clearly unethical to take advantage of someone streaming to get information about their hand.
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This is an interesting thought of discussion for whenever the game does get spectator mode and games mandatory streamed.
I do think its pretty disturbing how they didn't do anything about it. Since its frowned upon by everyone. Having that type of evidence should have been quite damning to him. Perhaps its just because he is who he is.
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90 seconds delay
lol
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So after the game I ask him if hes watching my stream, and he answers: "I know you're streaming but I'm not watching it"
For some reason for the SF match he uploaded the screenshot vs me by mistake. http://imgur.com/O94ryqeAs you can see he's watching my stream in the background and he's been doing that for quite a while already, because there wasn't much chatting going on and the chat is full.
Based on this, Diamondprox lied straight to you. Apart from that, we could argue he used whatever means were not forbidden by the rules in the situation (which is ESL's and yours fault). But he also outright lied about it. Well, lying isn't forbidden either, but that's what I found to be his lowest point in this case. ESL better change rules, perhaps require some fixed substantial delay by all players to allow for better viewing/casting as well.
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Before people start witchhunting too much we should remember that it is possible that he only had the chat open. I remember at least it being the case a few years back in sc2 where a player was watching his opponents stream before being matched up against him. Once he realized he was playing the streamer he was watching he paused the stream, which leaves the chat open. The other viewers soon spotted him in the list of viewers watching the stream and accused him of streamcheating, while he had just forgotten to close the chat. Twitch admins then later came in and confirmed that he was only in the chat and was not watching any stream.
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
Like you said it's more of a lol this LOL player who makes good money from LoL cheated to beat me in Hearthstone, haha. That is what you should be feeling, and you also BEAT him whilst he was cheating too another, lol i beat a cheater xD. If he wants to win so badly he cheats so be it, it is quite funny.
You learnt your lesson, whilst TL Hearthstone section has figured out Diamondprox does anything he can to win, even at Hearthstone.
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EPT
