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On December 04 2013 04:07 Schwopzi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 03:55 SOB_Maj_Brian wrote:
The guy may not be a "cheater", but he certainly is a liar (he lied about looking at the stream), and it certainly was unsportsmanlike. That's an assumption. He never denied he had the stream on. He just said he wasn't watching it. Also there's no evidence he cheated. The rules didn't say he couldn't have the stream of an opponent open, and that's all the screenshot proves. That he has the stream open. So marten lost fair and square, diamond didnt break any rules. If the rules aren't what you feel they -should- be you either don't play the tourney or man the fuck up.
I agree with you about cheating and about the rule breaking. But how can you have the stream up ant not "watch" (i.e. to look at or observe)? It's right there in the screenshot! He had to open it and its playing right there!
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Lol, stream cheating isn't a DQ, good to see ESL admins' terrible decision making haven't changed since SC2. I'd agree with no action if the proof was not this concrete, but that's obvious cheating. If you're not going to DQ for cheating, what are you even going to DQ for... Actually, knowing ESL, they'll DQ for msging admins too many times or speaking to admins in an aggressive manner.
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On December 04 2013 04:38 Gr33d wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 03:54 TheDna wrote:On December 04 2013 03:42 teddyoojo wrote:On December 04 2013 03:30 ReketSomething wrote:
Fault of all 4 parties. MartenJ for streaming, DiamondProx for streamcheating, reddit for always closing threads without paying attention/reading it and ESL for not giving a fuck that someone cheated. its not like he used maphack tho, why would ESL have to react when he can just not stream next time pretty terrible from superior moba gamer tho Its exactly like using maphack. There is no difference, just in the risk of getting caught.. Cheating is cheating, there is no difference. Cheating should be always punished the exactly same way specially if there is evidence like this. I think the suggestion to email his sponsor is very good. That will hopefully have some consequences for this scumbag. No its not "exactly like using maphack". With maphack you get an unfair benefit because you use / alter the gamecode in an unintended (and forbidden!) way while the opponent plays normal.
You seriously think it has to alter game-code to be a cheat? It is "exactly like using a maphack" when I look at my buddy's screen in the same room when we play SC2 or HS vs. each other. You are gaining information you should not have when playing the match.
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On December 04 2013 04:38 Gr33d wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 03:54 TheDna wrote:On December 04 2013 03:42 teddyoojo wrote:On December 04 2013 03:30 ReketSomething wrote:
Fault of all 4 parties. MartenJ for streaming, DiamondProx for streamcheating, reddit for always closing threads without paying attention/reading it and ESL for not giving a fuck that someone cheated. its not like he used maphack tho, why would ESL have to react when he can just not stream next time pretty terrible from superior moba gamer tho Its exactly like using maphack. There is no difference, just in the risk of getting caught.. Cheating is cheating, there is no difference. Cheating should be always punished the exactly same way specially if there is evidence like this. I think the suggestion to email his sponsor is very good. That will hopefully have some consequences for this scumbag. No its not "exactly like using maphack". With maphack you get an unfair benefit because you use / alter the gamecode in an unintended (and forbidden!) way while the opponent plays normal. What happened is more like martenJ put his buildorder prematch on Stream, while not even forced to stream, and then raged like a kid because his cannonrush get countered. NOBODY is forced to stream any of the matches and nobody forced him to use such a low delay. Complaining after such a thing happens is just stupid, especially if there are other points like "Oooh he changed his nickname! So shady!" and "They don't want my drama on reddit, lets post it here!" Is it good sportsmanship to use the stream of an opponent? No. But whoever is so stupid to give away vital match information does not deserve it better. But who knows, maybe thats even good for martenJ, seems like he wants the attention to get a few more viewers on his stream.
Man you are FOS.. You interact with your streamviewers, thats why you dont put in a bigger delay else streaming is pretty much obsolete.
The punishment should still be exactly the same as maphacking as it has exactly the same effect. And if you are even stupid enough to screenshot it, you definitely deserve to get burned.
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He pretty much pushed the information in his face. And when you play with your buddy in the same room and you have to look at his screen its probably because switching monitors/PCs would not be practical. Turning off the stream or giving ita much larger delay however is reasonable. Its not some super secret tech, he did stream it to hundreds of viewers, how stupid is it to not assume that your opponent MIGHT just tune in, especially when it pops in on the frontpage of the twitch hearthstone channel? Thats like complaining you got "hacked" when you post your login info on stream for all the world to see.
Instead of writing some crap mails to diamondprox sponsors people should write a mail to Blizzard so that a proper spectator mode gets added.
On December 04 2013 05:25 TheDna wrote:
Man you are FOS.. You interact with your streamviewers, thats why you dont put in a bigger delay else streaming is pretty much obsolete.
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Guess you have anger management issues. Its is NOT required to stream, so why should the ESL or the other player be at fault, its martenJs own decision. He wants the exposure / money from twitch, he has to live with the risk because there are a more than enough ways to prevent what happened (And as stated, its not the first time he accused someone of "streamcheating", the last time just because someone had a vaguely similar nickname in chat than his opponent). Now continue to cry foul, maybe even sub his channel so he can deal better with this devastating loss.
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Pretty annoying, but remember don't tempt the weak willed to cheat. So while it is really bad that diamondprox person cheated, it wouldn't have happened if the OP didn't stream. Thats probably the only difference to a maphack.
So I can understand if tournament organizers take less action against these things and rather tell people not to stream. If everyone would stream with no delay, the admins would surely have a ton of banhammer swinging more to do each tournament.
Just like the police would be pretty busy if everyone would leave their windows wide open and tell them: "my door was locked !" after being robbed. (luckily no one does it since insurances will pay nothing if they find out you did "tempt" someone to rob your house)
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How do I explain this best?
Streaming is good, because it promotes these types of events and brings exposure to the game and organizations sposoring the events. Some events even REQUIRE you to stream 2P for example. So in some cases you wont be able to avoid it. There are even official streams.
Delay in Hearthstone does not really matter much. Unless you delay it to 30-60mins, but than interaction with audience isn't possible anymore. That makes streams less enjoyable obviously.
Why does even 15mins delay not matter much? Because there is no timelimit in custom games. This means people can delay each turn for a couple of minutes and still get a huge advantage by streamcheating/ghosting.
Promoting and not punishing ghosting/streamcheating is ridiculous. Because it would basically mean that everyone that wants to compete in these types of events pretty much has to do it. Its really silly to say that MartenJ was "pushing the information into Dimondprox face"..
And he wasnt even complaining until there was pretty much undeniable proof of the guy cheating him.. How could he even ignore that screenshot? Its pretty much your duty as an honest person to report a cheater to the admins..
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So basically:
Marten: Fucked up (next time don't stream for tournaments - ie. a big 'fuck you' to the community).
ESL: Fucked up (next time... who am i kidding)
DiamondProx: Pathetic fucktard.
Sum it up?
I hope we can all agree. This thread still does serve an important purpose: exposing DiamondProx.
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it really is your fault for delaying with only 90 seconds... no one was forcing you to stream with a delay that only lasted 90 seconds
i don't get what you are trying to accomplish with this
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On December 04 2013 06:14 TheDna wrote:
How do I explain this best?
Streaming is good, because it promotes these types of events and brings exposure to the game and organizations sposoring the events. Some events even REQUIRE you to stream 2P for example. So in some cases you wont be able to avoid it. There are even official streams.
Delay in Hearthstone does not really matter much. Unless you delay it to 30-60mins, but than interaction with audience isn't possible anymore. That makes streams less enjoyable obviously.
Why does even 15mins delay not matter much? Because there is no timelimit in custom games. This means people can delay each turn for a couple of minutes and still get a huge advantage by streamcheating/ghosting.
Promoting and not punishing ghosting/streamcheating is ridiculous. Because it would basically mean that everyone that wants to compete in these types of events pretty much has to do it. Its really silly to say that MartenJ was "pushing the information into Dimondprox face"..
And he wasnt even complaining until there was pretty much undeniable proof of the guy cheating him.. How could he even ignore that screenshot? Its pretty much your duty as an honest person to report a cheater to the admins..
good post.
Basically its a trade-off. I wanna interact with my viewers as much as possible, and delay makes it much harder to do.
I tried to avoid any QQ in OP (not sure if that worked out or not) and just state facts. I didn't even use the word cheat in the OP.
As I said its unethical and unsportsmanlike imo, and there's no good definition of cheating anyway.
Regarding the email the sponsors idea: I like it, I think I'll write an email to Riot games. Every LCS player gets a salary from Riot and I think they have pretty strict rules if they misbehave (get punished by the tribunal for example)
I think Diamondprox has a rather poor reputation in the lol community anyway (i might be wrong about this, but he used to rage pretty hard iirc)
Regarding ESL: I have almost no experience with the ESL and how strictly they enforce their rules, but I know ppl dont like them in this community. I didn't even check the rules first when i protested, but I thought it would be at least possible that he gets DQed from the tournament (or gets a temp ban). The screenshot gets as close as it gets to a proof imo.
I'm not sure if the fact the Diamond is a E-sports celebrity had anything to do with the fact that the protest got closed really fast, but tbh I doubt it.
The accusations that I use this thread just to promote my stream are pretty lol, I haven't even linked to my stream once. It's in German anyway so there's no point in doing so.
and yeah, the purpose of the thread is just to call out this scumbag.
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On December 04 2013 07:02 SpecialistSc wrote:
it really is your fault for delaying with only 90 seconds... no one was forcing you to stream with a delay that only lasted 90 seconds
i don't get what you are trying to accomplish with this
how do you not get it, the point is spelled out in the thread title. unless you're a fucking idiot, the minor mistake of streaming with an unwise delay does not justify the fact that some guy who's sponsored and is held to a standard of professionalism stream-sniped him with almost incontrovertible proof.
if he wanted to, I'm pretty sure the OP could really mess with this guy via his sponsors, and frankly he probably should. cue people saying it's revenge, but even though it's a different and more casual game (I highly suspect this is the thought process that led to him cheating), blatant and obvious fuckery shouldn't be tolerated. competition is still competition.
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On December 04 2013 07:02 SpecialistSc wrote:
it really is your fault for delaying with only 90 seconds... no one was forcing you to stream with a delay that only lasted 90 seconds
i don't get what you are trying to accomplish with this
guess we know how you won a tlopen
User was warned for this post
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Well, the ESL admin stated that watching your opponent's stream is by no means forbidden by the tournament, so Diamondprox did nothing wrong. I don't get what this witch hunt is trying to accomplish, he apparently didn't violate any rules set up by ESL and he doesn't deserve this. I guess martenJ is mad because he got outsmarted by his opponent, who also happens to be a successful LoL player, which may encourage further jealousy.
As long as the tournament admins state that his behaviour is just fine, it's totally your own fault if you want to show him your cards. He did nothing wrong, the only wrong thing is calling him out here (and on reddit).
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How ethical would streaming and interacting with viewers in a competitive game with reputation and money on the line be in the first place? Though, broadcasting on its own does not imply the availability of outside help.
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On December 04 2013 07:26 the`postman wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 07:02 SpecialistSc wrote:
it really is your fault for delaying with only 90 seconds... no one was forcing you to stream with a delay that only lasted 90 seconds
i don't get what you are trying to accomplish with this guess we know how you won a tlopen
?
User was warned for this post
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I understand that people agree with ESL because it did not violate any rules. What I don't understand that why it is not a rule. This community needs people to stream this game, and needs people to stream tournaments. Of course MartenJ could have done more to protect himself from this happening. That does not mean we should condone that it did happen.
Also can people please refrain from (personal attacks?) calling MartenJ mad/dumb/jealous/whatever. If you believe you have been wronged and can in fact prove it and no one seems to want to help you, you would probably be doing the exact same thing attemtping to involve the community. I think he made a fairly respectable post considering what he believes to be the circumstances.
Though I believe we need to shift the focus to ESL changing their rules, rather than witch hunting Diamondprox. In my opinion, what he allegedly did was very unsportsmanlike, but it was not against ESL regulations at the time (although some posts seem to indicate he was likely not aware of that, but nevermind that). Rules are there to combat unsportsmanlike behavior. It is exactly what they are there for.
Currently hearthstone is not (yet?) built for streamcheating/ghosting whatever it is called. In customs there is no time limit to your turn, meaning you can actually wait a full 15 minutes for someones delay to sync with your turn and then go from there. At the very least you could wait and get to see his hand which is information enough to win you a game in some cases. Are you guys ACTUALLY suggesting that is perfectly fine and we shouldn't act up? And don't start saying that's blizzard's fault now too for not implementing a proper feature to combat it.
Hearthstone tournaments should have rules against streamcheating. Even if it is only there to discourage it (because it is very difficult to actually proof it in many many cases).
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It's not a rule because there's no way to enforce it and you shouldn't be showing your opponent your entire hand in the first place if you care about tournament winnings.
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On December 04 2013 09:23 skyR wrote:
It's not a rule because there's no way to enforce it and you shouldn't be showing your opponent your entire hand in the first place if you care about tournament winnings.
That does not mean that when it can absolutely be enforced, it shouldn't be enforced. Although that does not necessarily have to be the case here.
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Holy crap what a loser thing to do.
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On December 04 2013 09:23 skyR wrote:
It's not a rule because there's no way to enforce it and you shouldn't be showing your opponent your entire hand in the first place if you care about tournament winnings.
Pretty much this. A lot of points here are moot.
You shouldn't be interacting with your fans when your in a tournament setting in the first place.
Secondly when you choose to stream, you essentially advertising for views from everyone.
I think of it like a camwhore who's stream gets watched by her father. Sure her father is a total fucking perv, but she pretty much putting it out there for everyone to see.
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EPT
