EPTIt's obvious that you run a risk when doing so, no matter what delay you set the game is still turn based. Your opponent can just wait for the stream to catch up before making a move (and even if he doesn't wait, seeing what cards were in hand on turn1 will still help you at turn 4). It's also really hard to catch people cheating in this way, since it's possible to watch streams anonymously. But when someone is stupid enough to actually send the evidence of them cheating to the admins, not acting on it is just absolutely mind boggling. Even for ESL admins this seems like a new low.
Diamondprox ghosted me in ESL-Cup - Page 4
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Vorenius
Denmark1979 Posts
It's obvious that you run a risk when doing so, no matter what delay you set the game is still turn based. Your opponent can just wait for the stream to catch up before making a move (and even if he doesn't wait, seeing what cards were in hand on turn1 will still help you at turn 4). It's also really hard to catch people cheating in this way, since it's possible to watch streams anonymously. But when someone is stupid enough to actually send the evidence of them cheating to the admins, not acting on it is just absolutely mind boggling. Even for ESL admins this seems like a new low. | ||
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Irave
United States9965 Posts
This isn't a witch hunt against Diamondprox either. More of a wave to ESL for not properly handling the situation. | ||
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SCC-Faust
United States3736 Posts
On December 04 2013 10:32 Irave wrote: It's saddening to see a fair amount of people not have an issue with stream cheating. Instead electing to place the blame on the victim. This should really be frowned upon, not LOL you invited him to cheat you! This is my thought too. This thread is filled with people acting like complete idiots. Just because someone presents you with a situation doesn't mean you have to do it if you know it is morally wrong. | ||
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Keniji
Netherlands2569 Posts
On December 04 2013 10:44 SCC-Faust wrote: This is my thought too. This thread is filled with people acting like complete idiots. Just because someone presents you with a situation doesn't mean you have to do it if you know it is morally wrong. yea, because so many people in this thread said it was morally right for diamondprox to "streamcheat". oh wait. Nobody did. People argue that it is legally right. Additionally, even though diamondprox is morally wrong, it is still martenJ fault for streaming without a sufficient delay. Technically, it isn't even proven that diamondprox did look at the stream while playing. | ||
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Specialist
United States803 Posts
On December 04 2013 07:16 TheExile19 wrote: how do you not get it, the point is spelled out in the thread title. unless you're a fucking idiot, the minor mistake of streaming with an unwise delay does not justify the fact that some guy who's sponsored and is held to a standard of professionalism stream-sniped him with almost incontrovertible proof. if he wanted to, I'm pretty sure the OP could really mess with this guy via his sponsors, and frankly he probably should. cue people saying it's revenge, but even though it's a different and more casual game (I highly suspect this is the thought process that led to him cheating), blatant and obvious fuckery shouldn't be tolerated. competition is still competition. I have seen Starcraft 2 scene and I know people will do anything to win even a small prize when there is an opportunity. Thus, what i was trying to say is, it's his fault that he let himself into that vulnerable situation and it was obviously fixable thing to do on his ends. for example, people who were required to stream in 2p tournament this past weekend obviously raised a possibility of cheating so it was required as a rule to put a 15 min delay on. Any sensible people would put a longer delay like this in tournaments. Do not be naive and think competitors are all moral and fair minded when there is a prize. Give me a break. I know people do cheat and that's why I take as many precaution as I can when entering competitions online. If you want to interact with viewers, do that another time, but not during tournaments. | ||
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SCC-Faust
United States3736 Posts
On December 04 2013 11:25 Keniji wrote: yea, because so many people in this thread said it was morally right for diamondprox to "streamcheat". oh wait. Nobody did. People argue that it is legally right. Additionally, even though diamondprox is morally wrong, it is still martenJ fault for streaming without a sufficient delay. Technically, it isn't even proven that diamondprox did look at the stream while playing. Uh what? It is martenJ's fault for enabling Diamondprox to do something he knew was wrong? I agree martenJ gave Diamondprox the opportunity to cheat. And not streaming is a good solution and would have prevented these problems from ever happening. But given the situation, you know what is another great solution? Punishing the person who cheated. You would have to be incredibly dense to think that this isn't proof enough of cheating. Like you think Diamondprox just has a stream of the person he is going against in the background and not watching it, right. | ||
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iEchoic
United States1776 Posts
I remember on a competitive shooter game many years back I experienced some glitch where my character shot on top of an inaccessible building. Confused out and worried that people would think I was cheating if they saw me, I quickly laid down and hid. Immediately after jumping onto the building, someone rounded a corner running FRAPs, saw me run and hide, and accused me of cheating with video and everything. What are the odds of that? It's the kind of experience that makes you think "I'm going to give people the benefit of the doubt from here on." That scenario was far less likely than this guy watching the stream beforehand and forgetting to close the tab (though I agree it is unlikely). Did he probably do it? Yes. Should the admins invent rules on the fly and jump to conclusions that haven't been proven? No. In the meantime, you probably shouldn't stream with a 90 second delay if you're going to get upset when the inevitable happens. Tourney admins don't deserve blame for this. | ||
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RockIronrod
Australia1369 Posts
Because it certainly looks that way. Zero tolerance to any form of cheating, and don't punish community members for creating content for the community. That's fucking retarded. | ||
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TyrantPotato
Australia1541 Posts
The blame does all fall on diamond here. He had a choice to watch your stream or not. he choose to cheat full stop period explanation mark | ||
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curi
United States313 Posts
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ptbl
United States6074 Posts
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ptbl
United States6074 Posts
On December 04 2013 14:21 RockIronrod wrote: Is this the part where we as a community welcome back Deezer with open arms because he didn't do anything wrong, it was the streamers fault for streaming in the first place? And then we say to everyone "go exploit loopholes in the rules, it's kosher", get on World Poker Tour and win by watching a live broadcast at the table, let teams look at the screens intended for the audiences at LANs and get into mysterious coughing fits on Who Wants to be a Millionaire? Because it certainly looks that way. Zero tolerance to any form of cheating, and don't punish community members for creating content for the community. That's fucking retarded. Yeah, this is what I am seeing in this thread. People are blaming marten for streaming rather than condeming diamondplox for stream cheating. It's like blaming the girl for being raped because she wore short skirts. Just seems weird that people in the hearthstone community is blaming the victim. o.o | ||
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Swords
6038 Posts
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Yoav
United States1874 Posts
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Lylat
France8575 Posts
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ptbl
United States6074 Posts
On December 04 2013 11:42 SpecialistSc wrote: I have seen Starcraft 2 scene and I know people will do anything to win even a small prize when there is an opportunity. Thus, what i was trying to say is, it's his fault that he let himself into that vulnerable situation and it was obviously fixable thing to do on his ends. for example, people who were required to stream in 2p tournament this past weekend obviously raised a possibility of cheating so it was required as a rule to put a 15 min delay on. Any sensible people would put a longer delay like this in tournaments. Do not be naive and think competitors are all moral and fair minded when there is a prize. Give me a break. I know people do cheat and that's why I take as many precaution as I can when entering competitions online. If you want to interact with viewers, do that another time, but not during tournaments. How come you are attacking marten who is the victim here? This feels very strange to me. It seems you are giving the cheater a free pass and ragging on the person who was cheated upon. | ||
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TheDna
Germany577 Posts
On December 04 2013 15:47 ptbl wrote: Wow, there seems a lot of people in the TL hearthstone forum that condones stream cheating. If someone was found out to be stream cheating in an sc2 match, there would be a major outcry from the public. Seems like the TL hearthstone community doesn't care about cheating. Maybe it's because the hearthstone community is young? Exactly the way I felt about this, glad I m not the only one. I really hope we dont see the rather immature LoL community running over from one free to play game to another. Because that is exactly why I never liked free to play games. Its really sad to see people supporting a cheater and blaming the victim.. | ||
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soulglider009
United States40 Posts
No, he shouldn't be disqualified without proof, but there should be no doubt that stream cheating is wrong. This looks like pretty good proof and the tourney admins should look into it. If I leave my door unlocked, do I deserve to get robbed? If a woman wears sexy clothing and is walking home at night, does she deserve to get raped? If I left my bag at my table at a restaurant when I go to the bathroom and it gets stolen, is it my fault? Are these things inevitable? If caught, who should be blamed in these situations? The answer should be obvious... YES you take precautions against the scumbags of the world, but NO it's not your fault. It's their fault. It's pretty normal for tournament rules to not cover everything. When new situations arise, the admins need to make a decision on it. ESL made a poor decision here, and we should fight back or not watch. | ||
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Amui
Canada10567 Posts
On December 04 2013 19:20 TheDna wrote: Exactly the way I felt about this, glad I m not the only one. I really hope we dont see the rather immature LoL community running over from one free to play game to another. Because that is exactly why I never liked free to play games. Its really sad to see people supporting a cheater and blaming the victim.. I don't get the irrational hate of LoL. The age group doesn't really differ between the various games, no reason to think that they'd be more mature. Go visit the TL LoL section and compare it to Sc2, I think you'd be surprised. That said, I would rather take this incident as a lesson. Hearthstone, unlike a lot of other games, you can get a huge advantage by stream cheating, even with a comparatively large delay. I don't see this as avoidable either(except by turning off stream or running VERY large delays). Proven cheaters should still be punished, but precautions should be taken. | ||
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Salazarz
Korea (South)2591 Posts
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