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On December 04 2013 22:52 gaymon wrote:
I''m really shocked about the attitude in this thread, it is unbelievable that there are people who are defending the offender IN ANY WAY. Streamcheating is a disgusting act, beeing retarded enough to actually upload the proof by yourself is actually ridiculously funny.
Even though this probably will not have any official ramifications this person has lost my respect (Not that he gained it ever, i do not even know who he is)
EDIT: He was not even logged into his twitch account in order to hide his fraud .... no words
Many people are burning OP for the mistakes he made. He could have easily prevented this. This is far from "supporting the offender".
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So basically just put 15 minute delay and all problems are solved.
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So I guess me saying that using chat to have them call plays you didn't see is also a form of cheating that the OP is using equals me supporting a stream cheater. Ok.
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On December 04 2013 20:05 Zdrastochye wrote:
So all of this could have been avoided with Marten either putting on a longer delay, or not streaming at all. Really that's where the blame ends, Diamond may have possibly been unsportsmanlike, but he broke not a single rule in the tournament.
Just because no rule exists because they don't think their rules through does not make it okay. If a tournament in StarCraft forgets to add "no maphack" to their rulebook does that suddenly make it ok to maphack? If the monopoly rulebook says nothing about stealing from the bank is it now acceptable to steal from the bank? Have some common fucking sense. The reaction from ESL is laughable and so are a lot of comments like yours in this thread.
Some of these reactions are similar to imbeciles telling a raped girl not to wear a skirt next time. It's so absurd. Yes it could have been avoided that should not be the point of focus here at all.
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On December 05 2013 00:30 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 20:05 Zdrastochye wrote:
So all of this could have been avoided with Marten either putting on a longer delay, or not streaming at all. Really that's where the blame ends, Diamond may have possibly been unsportsmanlike, but he broke not a single rule in the tournament. Just because no rule exists because they don't think their rules through does not make it okay. If a tournament in StarCraft forgets to add "no maphack" to their rulebook does that suddenly make it ok to maphack? If the monopoly rulebook says nothing about stealing from the bank is it now acceptable to steal from the bank? Have some common fucking sense. The reaction from ESL is laughable and so are a lot of comments like yours in this thread. Some of these reactions are similar to imbeciles telling a raped girl not to wear a skirt next time. It's so absurd. Yes it could have been avoided that should not be the point of focus here at all.
This, seriously I am blown away that people are like QQ you shouldn't have let him cheat... Diamond may have possibly been unsportsmanlike, but he broke not a single rule in the tournament.
There is no may or possibly, he WAS unsportsmanlike and he WAS cheating. The same logic could have been used when the Patriots cheated and video taped other teams signals, you could say "well they should have been better about hiding their signals from the video cameras sorry"
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Did anyone dating "its not against the rules " even look at them?
http://www.nationalesl.com/us/hearthstone/1on1/beta_cup1/rules/2.3. Cheating
All forms of cheating in ESL matches are forbidden and will be penalized by the Electronic Sports League.
Either it was against the rules and they're not doing anything about it, or stream cheating is somehow not cheating.
In either case, what the fuck? At least look into it, Jesus Christ the guy sent a screenshot of himself with the fucking stream open.
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I cannot believe how many people are actually supporting the stream-cheater here. What the hell? This really makes me sad, that so many people in the esports community think like this these days.
Any company sponsoring Diamondprox should get away from him and stay away from him. Any respectable esports tournament/cup should ban players who have stream-cheated in the past. I would be really disappointed to see Diamondprox compete in any TLOpen in the future.
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ITT: people constructing strawmen and attacking them.
Nobody is supporting the cheater in this thread. Just pointing out that tournaments should apply rigor to a decision to DQ someone for cheating. While the OP's evidence is strong, it is not conclusive. I was an admin at Gamebattles.com back in the day and saw several situations with even more damning evidence where the person ended up being innocent. Given that stream cheating isn't going to be prevented by witch hunts, the only lesson we can really take away is that 90sec is not an adequate delay.
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On December 05 2013 00:30 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 20:05 Zdrastochye wrote:
So all of this could have been avoided with Marten either putting on a longer delay, or not streaming at all. Really that's where the blame ends, Diamond may have possibly been unsportsmanlike, but he broke not a single rule in the tournament. Just because no rule exists because they don't think their rules through does not make it okay. If a tournament in StarCraft forgets to add "no maphack" to their rulebook does that suddenly make it ok to maphack? If the monopoly rulebook says nothing about stealing from the bank is it now acceptable to steal from the bank? Have some common fucking sense. The reaction from ESL is laughable and so are a lot of comments like yours in this thread. Some of these reactions are similar to imbeciles telling a raped girl not to wear a skirt next time. It's so absurd. Yes it could have been avoided that should not be the point of focus here at all.
Difference is rape is illegal.
stream cheating was not in this case.
EDIT: to be clear, Dprox still massive dick move.
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We definitely need more rape analogies, because thats comparable to watching another player stream his tournament match.
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While I agree the OP only has himself to blame, I think that to accept stream cheating is to accept all other forms of cheating.
Slippery slope here, Hearthstone fans. See it for what you'd like, but I personally feel that Diamondprox is equally to blame here and should be held accountable for his actions. While this might not be the case for the OP, many streamers make their livings on their stream, and to start requiring them to find a way to not get screwed over while still being able to make a living is extremely unfair.
I can see pros and cons of both sides, and personally I don't care one way or another. I just figured someone needs to say the obvious, that at some point there would need to be a stopping point for what we will and will not allow.
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On December 05 2013 00:30 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 20:05 Zdrastochye wrote:
So all of this could have been avoided with Marten either putting on a longer delay, or not streaming at all. Really that's where the blame ends, Diamond may have possibly been unsportsmanlike, but he broke not a single rule in the tournament. Just because no rule exists because they don't think their rules through does not make it okay. If a tournament in StarCraft forgets to add "no maphack" to their rulebook does that suddenly make it ok to maphack? If the monopoly rulebook says nothing about stealing from the bank is it now acceptable to steal from the bank? Have some common fucking sense. The reaction from ESL is laughable and so are a lot of comments like yours in this thread. Some of these reactions are similar to imbeciles telling a raped girl not to wear a skirt next time. It's so absurd. Yes it could have been avoided that should not be the point of focus here at all.
Actually yeah, if a major league tournament organizer (does ESL qualify?) doesn't point out in its rules that attempting to observe the other player is grounds for disqualification, then sticking to the rules but using anything else to gain an advantage is fair play. If they change the rule after this match so that streamcheating is illegal, they should pursue this matter and see if they can stop it from happening again. If they do nothing then the onus is on the streamers, not on those watching his stream.
Taken from the ESL website:
2.3. Cheating
All forms of cheating in ESL matches are forbidden and will be penalized by the Electronic Sports League.
Players found cheating outside of the ESL may be barraged on the ESL depending on the evidence available. Note, we do not accept publicly submitted demo or screenshot evidence in these cases.
Should it become known to the ESL administrators that any form of cheating was used to the advantage of a player or a team during an ESL match, the ESL reserves the right to punish them to the full extent of the rules available. By breaking any rule a player risks being barred or completely excluded from a specific league or from all leagues. This also includes their team.
Source: http://www.esl.eu/eu/rules/
So according to their own rules, they have been informed of what occurred, and it's up to their admins to declare if Diamond cheated or not, and no matter how many great points people think they have brought up in this thread, nothing is going to change because of it. If they view him as a cheater then this could be the last ESL event he plays in, but it's not for any of us to say.
Edit for Nazgul: Rape apologist comparison for stream cheating, not quite sure if that's accurate.
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On December 05 2013 03:49 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2013 00:30 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:On December 04 2013 20:05 Zdrastochye wrote:
So all of this could have been avoided with Marten either putting on a longer delay, or not streaming at all. Really that's where the blame ends, Diamond may have possibly been unsportsmanlike, but he broke not a single rule in the tournament. Just because no rule exists because they don't think their rules through does not make it okay. If a tournament in StarCraft forgets to add "no maphack" to their rulebook does that suddenly make it ok to maphack? If the monopoly rulebook says nothing about stealing from the bank is it now acceptable to steal from the bank? Have some common fucking sense. The reaction from ESL is laughable and so are a lot of comments like yours in this thread. Some of these reactions are similar to imbeciles telling a raped girl not to wear a skirt next time. It's so absurd. Yes it could have been avoided that should not be the point of focus here at all. Difference is rape is illegal. stream cheating was not in this case. EDIT: to be clear, Dprox still massive dick move.
Nazgul wasn't talking about the legality of rape. He was comparing the people who blame marten for allowing the cheating to happen because he streamed to the people who blame the girl for being rape because she wore short skirts. People are blaming the victim for the cheating (people blaming the girl for the rape) instead of going after the cheater (the rapist).
So, if murder wasn't illegal would that still make it right? You are saying that because it was not illegal it was alright if he cheated. In some countries, there are no laws against taking child brides. Does that make it ok because there is no laws against it?
Just because it's not in the rules (laws) doesn't make it ok to cheat.
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On December 05 2013 04:01 Zdrastochye wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2013 00:30 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:On December 04 2013 20:05 Zdrastochye wrote:
So all of this could have been avoided with Marten either putting on a longer delay, or not streaming at all. Really that's where the blame ends, Diamond may have possibly been unsportsmanlike, but he broke not a single rule in the tournament. Just because no rule exists because they don't think their rules through does not make it okay. If a tournament in StarCraft forgets to add "no maphack" to their rulebook does that suddenly make it ok to maphack? If the monopoly rulebook says nothing about stealing from the bank is it now acceptable to steal from the bank? Have some common fucking sense. The reaction from ESL is laughable and so are a lot of comments like yours in this thread. Some of these reactions are similar to imbeciles telling a raped girl not to wear a skirt next time. It's so absurd. Yes it could have been avoided that should not be the point of focus here at all. Actually yeah, if a major league tournament organizer (does ESL qualify?) doesn't point out in its rules that attempting to observe the other player is grounds for disqualification, then sticking to the rules but using anything else to gain an advantage is fair play. If they change the rule after this match so that streamcheating is illegal, they should pursue this matter and see if they can stop it from happening again. If they do nothing then the onus is on the streamers, not on those watching his stream. Taken from the ESL website: Show nested quote +2.3. Cheating
All forms of cheating in ESL matches are forbidden and will be penalized by the Electronic Sports League.
Players found cheating outside of the ESL may be barraged on the ESL depending on the evidence available. Note, we do not accept publicly submitted demo or screenshot evidence in these cases.
Should it become known to the ESL administrators that any form of cheating was used to the advantage of a player or a team during an ESL match, the ESL reserves the right to punish them to the full extent of the rules available. By breaking any rule a player risks being barred or completely excluded from a specific league or from all leagues. This also includes their team. Source: http://www.esl.eu/eu/rules/So according to their own rules, they have been informed of what occurred, and it's up to their admins to declare if Diamond cheated or not, and no matter how many great points people think they have brought up in this thread, nothing is going to change because of it. If they view him as a cheater then this could be the last ESL event he plays in, but it's not for any of us to say. Edit for Nazgul: Rape apologist comparison for stream cheating, not quite sure if that's accurate.
It's not about comparing rape to cheating. It's about showing the ludicrousness of some of these people blaming the victim. I could any other analogy to show the ridiculousness of these people arguments.
It's like blaming the owner of a car that got stolen because he parked it a bad neighborhood. Blaming the victim instead of going after the perpetrator is very strange to me.
Cheating apologist's actions have the same concept in the actions of rape apologists. They blame the victim for the rape. People here are blaming the victim for the cheating.
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Nvm, not getting involved in this.
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FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
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Well rape is not illegal in some countries so his comparison would work in that case. The point being that even if it does not say that it is against the rules it is still shitty.
It is like saying your Poker tournament has no rules about just walking over to the opponents side and looking at his cards. It is idiotic to suggest such a rule even needs saying. It is like saying Soccer has no rule against killing your opponent.
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2.3. Cheating
All forms of cheating in ESL matches are forbidden and will be penalized by the Electronic Sports League.
Players found cheating outside of the ESL may be barraged on the ESL depending on the evidence available. Note, we do not accept publicly submitted demo or screenshot evidence in these cases.
Should it become known to the ESL administrators that any form of cheating was used to the advantage of a player or a team during an ESL match, the ESL reserves the right to punish them to the full extent of the rules available. By breaking any rule a player risks being barred or completely excluded from a specific league or from all leagues. This also includes their team.
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It would be so easy for the ESL to just include ghosting into "any form of cheating", it´s really not a big stretch and if they
can´t even do that every tournament they host is just laughable.
WHAT exactly they are willing to accept as a proof that someone was ghosting is totally up to them and i agree that a screenshot can be faked and might not work as a proof (even though in this case it is very very very unlikely that someone has faked that screenshot).
But there at least has to be the POSSIBILITY of punishing someone who is streamcheating, if that doesn´t even exists, it´s just an invitation for ghosting.
Players at least have to fear that they COULD be punished for ghosting, if they know there is no way of getting a penatly for this it´s a huge difference and makes the whole tournament a complete joke.
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On December 05 2013 00:30 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 20:05 Zdrastochye wrote:
So all of this could have been avoided with Marten either putting on a longer delay, or not streaming at all. Really that's where the blame ends, Diamond may have possibly been unsportsmanlike, but he broke not a single rule in the tournament. Just because no rule exists because they don't think their rules through does not make it okay. If a tournament in StarCraft forgets to add "no maphack" to their rulebook does that suddenly make it ok to maphack? If the monopoly rulebook says nothing about stealing from the bank is it now acceptable to steal from the bank? Have some common fucking sense. The reaction from ESL is laughable and so are a lot of comments like yours in this thread. Some of these reactions are similar to imbeciles telling a raped girl not to wear a skirt next time. It's so absurd. Yes it could have been avoided that should not be the point of focus here at all.
The bolded part was my instant reaction as well... I don't know why people are saying it's the OP's fault. You want esports to spread but you're not allowed to broadcast it for fear of getting cheated out of a win.
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One could argue that in a slow paced / turn based game like Hearthstone the op is actually cheating too by reading his own stream chat. They discuss the game, bounce ideas etc giving him an advantage over somebody who is just playing on his own.
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EPT
