EPTAlso how is it unscoutable? You scout no gas -> scouted. You scout the CC not making an SCV -> scouted. He also can't afford to build a marine and an orbital at the same time as the first barracks finishes if he's going for this unless he delays his depot, so if you see that -> scouted / supply blocked for a while.
Unbeatable 2 Rax Push? - Page 4
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
Also how is it unscoutable? You scout no gas -> scouted. You scout the CC not making an SCV -> scouted. He also can't afford to build a marine and an orbital at the same time as the first barracks finishes if he's going for this unless he delays his depot, so if you see that -> scouted / supply blocked for a while. | ||
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STS17
United States1817 Posts
On November 19 2010 14:17 ch33psh33p wrote: Think about this for a second. You haven't scouted it. Why would you throw down a warren. You throw on down blind and pump 5 Roaches and a Crawler. Artosis mentions terrans always scan when doing this build. He see's you just wasted 7 larva that coudl've been mining drones, expands, pulls ahead, and what're you left with? Early warren and crwaler with no use? because the early warren doesn't stop other forms of harass and Roaches are completely useless except against this specific early marine push. Also, once you make those 7 larva worth of units that could be mining drones you nothing for the rest of the game and don't scout his expansion or anything else productive, instead you wait for the push to come for eternity. Also, spine crawlers have 0 use against anything else in the game, in fact they despawn after 15 seconds of idleness so you have to time their construction perfectly. If you scout anything at all which might indicate early pressure you would be placing spine crawlers down to help defend, would you not? | ||
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deth
Australia1757 Posts
a) artosis provides replays b) " writes up the bo extensively | ||
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MrCon
France29748 Posts
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STS17
United States1817 Posts
On November 19 2010 14:33 deth wrote: Everyone should stop assuming they know timings etc of the build until either a) artosis provides replays b) " writes up the bo extensively That's why I asked for his help explaining it - though it's hardly difficult to guess the timings if it's early enough to punish hatch-first significantly more then pool-first. | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On November 19 2010 14:33 deth wrote: Everyone should stop assuming they know timings etc of the build until either a) artosis provides replays b) " writes up the bo extensively "2 barracks, cuts one SCV, no gas" what more do you want? Do the supply numbers REALLY matter? | ||
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SubPointOA
United States183 Posts
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zhurai
United States5660 Posts
On November 19 2010 14:37 SubPointOA wrote: as stated in TL rules, dont call something unbeatable. psst, learn to read what artosis really said first off, i never said "Unbeatable". It is beatable, but it is extremely hard to scout correctly. marines catch drones very fast, and a handful of marines at the front make it very hard to see if this is infact what he is doing. | ||
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unkkz
Norway2196 Posts
 I dont know why but its always terrans that come up with these, how would blizzard have to tweak the race to prevent things like this? If more come you'd have to be psychic to play vs a terran since they can deny scouting so easily. Was it like this in BW? I didnt play it all that much so havent got a clue really.And the best way to get it "fixed" btw is to spread it, so that people abuse it and break the TvZ matchup, proning Blizzard to swift action. Hence Artosis is letting people know about it. | ||
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deth
Australia1757 Posts
On November 19 2010 14:37 Shikyo wrote: "2 barracks, cuts one SCV, no gas" what more do you want? Do the supply numbers REALLY matter? the time of an attack in varying circumstances, as well as transitions (lololo transitioning out of "unbeatable strategy") and numbers of supporting scv etc. make significant differences. The foxer style 12/14 all-in can be described by simply saying "2 barracks, cuts one SCV, no gas", but this is apparently very different. | ||
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MrCon
France29748 Posts
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windsupernova
Mexico5280 Posts
On November 19 2010 14:37 SubPointOA wrote: as stated in TL rules, dont call something unbeatable. It was the OP the one who said that. Thread title should be edited | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
Meh this kind of a timing makes no sense. If it's the second scan you add 100 more seconds to this, and then the earliest attack is going to include approximately 7 marines and 8-12 SCVs. Okay, sounds better. So we can conclude that the earliest actual attack timing is 200 seconds from when the first depot finishes. That'll be around 4:30+ minutes of gametime, and you'll have roaches out. | ||
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zhurai
United States5660 Posts
On November 19 2010 14:40 deth wrote: the time of an attack in varying circumstances, as well as transitions (lololo transitioning out of "unbeatable strategy") and numbers of supporting scv etc. make significant differences. The foxer style 12/14 all-in can be described by simply saying "2 barracks, cuts one SCV, no gas", but this is apparently very different. difference between this (from what I'm reading) and foxer's style is that foxer sends ~1-3 ish marines with lots of scv's. this one waits and builds a stockpile of marines, scans you to see what you're doing, and depending on what information, moves out and kills you, OR (if you have defenses out) just expands to gain an extremely large lead ahead of you on another note, I wonder if how this build'll fare in TvT or TvP anyways... | ||
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windsupernova
Mexico5280 Posts
On November 19 2010 14:40 unkkz wrote: Surprise yet another unscoutable all-in early game push for terrans I dont know why but its always terrans that come up with these, how would blizzard have to tweak the race to prevent things like this? If more come you'd have to be psychic to play vs a terran since they can deny scouting so easily. Was it like this in BW? I didnt play it all that much so havent got a clue really.And the best way to get it "fixed" btw is to spread it, so that people abuse it and break the TvZ matchup, proning Blizzard to swift action. Hence Artosis is letting people know about it. Come on! Are we going to reverse to the pre patch 1.1.2 mentality? Almost all the unscoutable openings were figured out eventually. Lets not call for a nerf when we don't even know the details. | ||
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CraftedSC
31 Posts
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zhurai
United States5660 Posts
ok let me get this straight. it's a build that does: - fast 2 rax (keep building marines) - skips one SCV - goes for an OC + scans the opponent - if the player sees you droning up, they'd attack at that point - if not (sees crawlers or zerglings/speedlings or banelings or roachs) they'll expand question though, when they attack, do they also send some scv's, do they also do bunker pressure, or is the amount or marines make it unnecessary to build bunkers/etc? | ||
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Komsa
United States99 Posts
http://www.mediafire.com/?onmo25qj6a5s3nx lol? | ||
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zhurai
United States5660 Posts
On November 19 2010 14:55 Komsa wrote: Works against 2000+ Diamond in TvT too! OMG http://www.mediafire.com/?onmo25qj6a5s3nx lol? somehow I'm guessing it's viable in TvP too unless P gets a sentry quickly (though I'm not sure the timings) o_o | ||
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Luvz
Norway356 Posts
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