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Artosis mentions there's a "unscoutable 2 rax push on Asia right now." on his Twitter. He says even if you make speedlings non-stop you can't even put a dent in it.
Now, can anyone hear enlighten us a little bit? I'm sure we have some that play on the KR server here.
I can't pretend to understand the severity of this issue, but could there be a be all-end all strategy that is actually not beatable? I know this game is young and it's a possibility. If so, Blizzard needs to be on their feet. And in the past (*cough* phoenix *cough*) they simply have not been. The days of 14 hatching are over once again. EDIT: It appears this build works well eve against Zergs not going 14 hatch.
Could this break GSL3, as almost half of it is TvZ?
Update: Artosis says "it looks like zerg might have to get a blind baneling nest if suspecting terran has 2 barracks. probably can get it after lair though."
Update 2:
"the build is basically 2 fast barracks (you cut 1 scv) and you pump marines nonstop. hit critical mass, and send marines+some scvs."
http://twitter.com/artosis
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Nope. You cant beat this push with speedlings but its easily beatable with roaches. I think Artosis is mentioning the 2 rax pressure that Foxer popularized in GSL2. Many Terrans in Asia pushes with 6-8 scvs and 8-10 rines very early. If Zerg FEs on any small maps like Steppes of War, its impossible to beat. I think that's what Artosis is trying to say. However, one base roach play would be able to beat this build pretty easily..
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i cant see any 2 rax push being literally unbeatable. maybe if u fast hatch or something... but other than that, i just dont see it.
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I just saw this too and I was curious what this meant. To me, it sounds like its just another FoxeR push. The 2nd rax is placed somewhere that isnt their natural expansion... which is what a terran reallly should do to prevent it from being scouted.
Needs more clarfication imo.
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Foxer's 2 Rax stuff is okay but didn't Nestea shut that down? Maybe it is a 8 Depot double fast Rax... would be pretty scary.
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Artosis does blow things out of proportion a lot.. SOOO MANNNYY BANELINGS!!! would like to know for easy wins though 
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Artosis should provide a replay. Or we can't help him. 
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i dont know my exact timings, but when i FE, right i send two preemptive spines towards the finishing hatch which fends off most of that, but im not sure at top of the line level play. seems to work for mid diamond.
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On November 19 2010 12:10 WniO wrote:
i dont know my exact timings, but when i FE, right i send two preemptive spines towards the finishing hatch which fends off most of that, but im not sure at top of the line level play. seems to work for mid diamond.
Well in BW Zerg had to build sunkens to defend the early marine medic push. Right?
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Was about to make a thread in the general SC2 forum regarding his tweet, glad I checked here first. No idea what he's talking about.
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On November 19 2010 12:07 Raiden X wrote:Artosis should provide a replay. Or we can't help him.
XD OMG! You sir are my hero
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rainbow just did this on sc2 all stars on jungle basin and lost pretty bad. roaches countered it effectively.
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I'd really like to see a replay of this, sounds interesting.
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"the build is basically 2 fast barracks (you cut 1 scv) and you pump marines nonstop. hit critical mass, and send marines+some scvs."
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Artosis is reffering to if the Z goes hatch first. If Z goes pool first, speedlings and one crawler will stop this with ease.
I have won the last 9 TvZ's that go 14 hatch with this build hes talking about. He says its unscoutable because you do 1 rax in base and 1 maka rax rally marines to the Z expo and pull 5-6 scvs with rine support. Have 1 scv build a bunker while your rines and other scvs make short work of any lings. Stutter step micro is so effective vs non-speed lings which are impossible to get this fast if you hatch first. If the Z somehow manages to survive this you just switch to tanks and do a quick tank push.
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Artosis
United States2140 Posts
On November 19 2010 13:14 XXXSmOke wrote:
Artosis is reffering to if the Z goes hatch first. If Z goes pool first, speedlings and one crawler will stop this with ease.
I have won the last 9 TvZ's that go 14 hatch with this build hes talking about. He says its unscoutable because you do 1 rax in base and 1 maka rax rally marines to the Z expo and pull 5-6 scvs with rine support. Have 1 scv build a bunker while your rines and other scvs make short work of any lings. Stutter step micro is so effective vs non-speed lings which are impossible to get this fast if you hatch first. If the Z somehow manages to survive this you just switch to tanks and do a quick tank push.
stop please. completely not what im reffering to. i never go hatch first, its a gamble build.
first off, i never said "Unbeatable". It is beatable, but it is extremely hard to scout correctly. marines catch drones very fast, and a handful of marines at the front make it very hard to see if this is infact what he is doing.
there is a new build on the asian server which is basically a marine / scv timing rush. they often times use a scan to see exactly what you have 1 time and adjust the attack timing to fit it. its far better than the rushes foxer was doing to nestea.
roaches probably would stop it, but if they use that scan i was talking about, they simply expand and your economy is quite bad with a handful of roaches. its quite a hard build to play vs right now on the asian server, and getting very popular.
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awesome thanks for the info artosis.
do you know kind of what the rough build order is? when do you stop worker production?
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I'm surprised there's only one unstoppable counter to 14 hatch. 350 minerals, a lack of mining time, and no army units that early in the game really should have hard-counters - it's as "all in" as a FE gets.
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On November 19 2010 13:29 Almania wrote:
I'm surprised there's only one unstoppable counter to 14 hatch. 350 minerals, a lack of mining time, and no army units that early in the game really should have a hard-counter.
Do you not read posts, artosis said he isn't going hatch first so cool your jets.
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On November 19 2010 13:25 Artosis wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2010 13:14 XXXSmOke wrote:
Artosis is reffering to if the Z goes hatch first. If Z goes pool first, speedlings and one crawler will stop this with ease.
I have won the last 9 TvZ's that go 14 hatch with this build hes talking about. He says its unscoutable because you do 1 rax in base and 1 maka rax rally marines to the Z expo and pull 5-6 scvs with rine support. Have 1 scv build a bunker while your rines and other scvs make short work of any lings. Stutter step micro is so effective vs non-speed lings which are impossible to get this fast if you hatch first. If the Z somehow manages to survive this you just switch to tanks and do a quick tank push. stop please. completely not what im reffering to. i never go hatch first, its a gamble build. first off, i never said "Unbeatable". It is beatable, but it is extremely hard to scout correctly. marines catch drones very fast, and a handful of marines at the front make it very hard to see if this is infact what he is doing. there is a new build on the asian server which is basically a marine / scv timing rush. they often times use a scan to see exactly what you have 1 time and adjust the attack timing to fit it. its far better than the rushes foxer was doing to nestea. roaches probably would stop it, but if they use that scan i was talking about, they simply expand and your economy is quite bad with a handful of roaches. its quite a hard build to play vs right now on the asian server, and getting very popular.
You think you could post up some replays, Artosis?
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On November 19 2010 13:28 Antisocialmunky wrote:
Do you have a BO?
From the way he is putting it, it isn't a strict build order. (maybe it is until like 15 supply or something) Once you scan, the Terran tweaks his build to exploit the Zerg's build.
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Do you not read posts, artosis said he isn't going hatch first so cool your jets.
Sorry, the OP says this: "The days of 14 hatching are over once again."
Perhaps it should be modified?
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any replays of this would be awesome to try and understand it better
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Is there a reason you don't want to post a replay Artosis?
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On November 19 2010 13:32 Corwin wrote:
Is there a reason you don't want to post a replay Artosis?
If you think a build is really busted, why would you post it so suddenly every Terran on every ladder is doing it?
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On November 19 2010 13:34 RuKu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2010 13:32 Corwin wrote:
Is there a reason you don't want to post a replay Artosis? If you think a build is really busted, why would you post it so suddenly every Terran on every ladder is doing it?
the more it's known and understood, the quicker a solution can be developed for Zerg to deal with it
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On November 19 2010 13:34 RuKu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2010 13:32 Corwin wrote:
Is there a reason you don't want to post a replay Artosis? If you think a build is really busted, why would you post it so suddenly every Terran on every ladder is doing it?
People are going to find it either way
IF it's busted, blizzard will fix it faster.
If it's not, then everyone might as well know it, and start learning to counter it.
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On November 19 2010 13:34 RuKu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2010 13:32 Corwin wrote:
Is there a reason you don't want to post a replay Artosis? If you think a build is really busted, why would you post it so suddenly every Terran on every ladder is doing it?
I would imagine that he would for mainly two reasons:
1) The more people know, the more people can work on countering it all the more quickly.
and
2) The more people know, the more Terrans employ the tactic, the greater the chance it affects things enough that Blizzard does something to tweak balance.
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So we got that to look forward to in the GSL... This is cranking out to be a pretty lame GSL.
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So its basically "very hard AI" terran build minus the micro. Throw up 2-3 spine crawlers + few lings and i dont see how u couldnt hold it off. Thats IF you scout it of course.
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@HalcyonMaus, I think #1 is more the answer. People have claimed blizzard neeed to patch certain units before, and a few weeks later without any patch, people adapt and are doing fine to X strat.
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On November 19 2010 13:38 lphoenixl wrote:
So its basically "very hard AI" terran build minus the micro. Throw up 2-3 spine crawlers + few lings and i dont see how u couldnt hold it off. Thats IF you scout it of course.
That much of a econ loss that early can lose you the game itself..
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If anyone has a replay of this I'd love to see it.
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Artosis
United States2140 Posts
ok time to teach some stuff to some folks:
"Make 3 spine crawlers" is a terrrrrrrrrrrrrrrible idea. if that's the answer, terran sees it, and then simply expands with a great economy, while yours is garbage with 3 useless spine crawlers (300 minerals + 150 minerals for drones, + 3 drones no longer mining, all of this after a pool-first (and normally speed-first as well...) build)
that = ridiculously far behind at the top levels.
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God, I know this build sounds scary but lets see how this can be beaten before we start talking about Blizzard doing some tweaking.
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On November 19 2010 13:43 Artosis wrote:
ok time to teach some stuff to some folks:
"Make 3 spine crawlers" is a terrrrrrrrrrrrrrrible idea. if that's the answer, terran sees it, and then simply expands with a great economy, while yours is garbage with 3 useless spine crawlers (300 minerals + 150 minerals for drones, + 3 drones no longer mining, all of this after a pool-first (and normally speed-first as well...) build)
that = ridiculously far behind at the top levels.
should we be scared for ret idra and haypro?, I thought at least two of them have said zvt is their best matchup.... oh noes!
also: you said the solution could be a baneling nest? but havent we seen that good micro doesnt make banelings good vs marines? does this push come before speed for banes could be done? before you have enough creep for them to be useful? do they get gas/stim? sounds like zerg vs mass reaper all over again... pray you can stay alive until lair tech can kick in.
gogo impromptu artosis replay commentary!
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On November 19 2010 13:34 RuKu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2010 13:32 Corwin wrote:
Is there a reason you don't want to post a replay Artosis? If you think a build is really busted, why would you post it so suddenly every Terran on every ladder is doing it?
But otherwise we can't help Artosis :d
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I saw your twitter Artosis,so you say a blind Baneling nest may counter this?
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I'd be interested in seeing a replay... The foxer games were interesting but it seemed to me that nestea handled -that- marine/scv rush fairly effectively even with a FE... I'm wondering how this is different. More scv's? A total all-in?
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On November 19 2010 13:43 Artosis wrote:
ok time to teach some stuff to some folks:
"Make 3 spine crawlers" is a terrrrrrrrrrrrrrrible idea. if that's the answer, terran sees it, and then simply expands with a great economy, while yours is garbage with 3 useless spine crawlers (300 minerals + 150 minerals for drones, + 3 drones no longer mining, all of this after a pool-first (and normally speed-first as well...) build)
that = ridiculously far behind at the top levels.
Salvage for spine crawlers anyone?? XD (Dont take this srsly plz)
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On November 19 2010 13:48 windsupernova wrote:
I saw your twitter Artosis,so you say a blind Baneling nest may counter this?
Doesn't every Zerg get a baneling nest against Terran?
Banelings are really good against most bio comps that Terran throw at Zerg nowadays.
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On November 19 2010 13:51 ALivelySedative wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2010 13:43 Artosis wrote:
ok time to teach some stuff to some folks:
"Make 3 spine crawlers" is a terrrrrrrrrrrrrrrible idea. if that's the answer, terran sees it, and then simply expands with a great economy, while yours is garbage with 3 useless spine crawlers (300 minerals + 150 minerals for drones, + 3 drones no longer mining, all of this after a pool-first (and normally speed-first as well...) build)
that = ridiculously far behind at the top levels. Salvage for spine crawlers anyone?? XD (Dont take this srsly plz)
bad idea... spine crawlers instead should just be able to be placed near min, and then mine from them like mules....
thanks everyone, i just fixed sc2
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On November 19 2010 13:51 Velladin wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2010 13:48 windsupernova wrote:
I saw your twitter Artosis,so you say a blind Baneling nest may counter this? Doesn't every Zerg get a baneling nest against Terran? Banelings are really good against most bio comps that Terran throw at Zerg nowadays.
True true, but I guess he meant a super early Bling nest or something like that. If its 2 Barracks the attack must come pretty early.
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How are you behind after 2-3 spine crawlers? He's not exactly 1rax CCing and even that doesn't really get ahead of the Z. Pool-first doesn't really give you worse econ than hatch-first because of faster Queen. After the 2-3 or w/e spines you can tech really freely and make only drones for a long time, spine crawlers are extremely light on the larvae so you have many more for the drones than if you made speedlings. He also is going to spend a mule to scan you, so you really shouldn't be behind alot if at all.
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Artosis
United States2140 Posts
just to clear up a few things:
the rush comes wayyyyyyyy before you have any tech. terran gets 0 gas. just scv/marine pumping.
if you make too many drones, they will move out faster. if you make lots of lings, they will wait a bit longer.
right now i like baneling nest right after lair starts, with constant attempts at scouting. idra mentioned that he thinks you might need baneling nest before lair starts.
if i hit another terran ill post the rep, but this time of the day its only zergs on asia for whatever reason.
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blind baneling nest = autolose to T who hides various techs, especially banshee.
The build sounds interesting, would like to see a replay.
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On November 19 2010 13:54 Shikyo wrote:
How are you behind after 2-3 spine crawlers? He's not exactly 1rax CCing and even that doesn't really get ahead of the Z. Pool-first doesn't really give you worse econ than hatch-first because of faster Queen. After the 2-3 or w/e spines you can tech really freely and make only drones for a long time, spine crawlers are extremely light on the larvae so you have many more for the drones than if you made speedlings. He also is going to spend a mule to scan you, so you really shouldn't be behind alot if at all.
3 spine crawlers =
300min + 150m to remake drones + no mining time on drones while remaking (~75)
costs you over 500min in minerals and mineral potential, while the only thing is cost terran is MAYBE 280min + a look at your tech.
your spines, rather useless from now on... his marines, still useful
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I still dont fully understand what this build involves.
From what i understand its some sort of early marine timing attack?
nvm all is clear now
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On November 19 2010 13:55 Artosis wrote:
just to clear up a few things:
the rush comes wayyyyyyyy before you have any tech. terran gets 0 gas. just scv/marine pumping.
if you make too many drones, they will move out faster. if you make lots of lings, they will wait a bit longer.
right now i like baneling nest right after lair starts, with constant attempts at scouting. idra mentioned that he thinks you might need baneling nest before lair starts.
if i hit another terran ill post the rep, but this time of the day its only zergs on asia for whatever reason.
all hail king of the nerds!
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I found 2 reps with a Supply Depot -> Barracks -> Barracks build order, using sc2gears.
Z wins: http://sc2rep.com/replays/show/id/2883
T wins: http://sc2rep.com/replays/show/id/2949
both games the Z at least holds the initial rush.
EDIT: maybe not good examples.first game T attacks with 1 rine which he loses to 4 drones waiting for him. then loses next push with 3 rines vs. 8 lings and loses the game. 2nd game T proxies both raxes (very scoutable), pulls no scvs, but still wins 12 mins in. I think what Artosis may be talking about is when they turtle in base, then push out with 5 rines / 8 scvs or so.
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are they sending 8ish scvs with it?
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Won't you have a drone in their base wandering around noticing that he hasn't taken any gas? If I see no gas being taken while marines are being made I usually throw down a nest immediately.
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The "unscoutable" bit puzzles me too =/.
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On November 19 2010 14:11 onmach wrote:
Won't you have a drone in their base wandering around noticing that he hasn't taken any gas? If I see no gas being taken while marines are being made I usually throw down a nest immediately.
Good question! I was wondering this too.
The Terran response of course could be to throw down a refinery then cancel it after the drone is dead, I don't imagine it'd throw the timing of the push off enough to be a problem. If the Refinery looks late to the scouting Zerg (would it? I don't even know, I haven't played this out yet), unless we're talking pro-level the Zerg player probably then just assumes he's playing a slow Terran or that the T player did a minor build order mistake / whatever.
Edit: Hell, thrown down both refineries! Let him see them, cancel them, he's now probably assuming banshee rush.
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Would a roach warren with some micro and 1 spine crawler be enough to stop this? I mean, if you do stop this, it is an all-in which means the Terran is kind of screwed...
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On November 19 2010 13:25 Artosis wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2010 13:14 XXXSmOke wrote:
Artosis is reffering to if the Z goes hatch first. If Z goes pool first, speedlings and one crawler will stop this with ease.
I have won the last 9 TvZ's that go 14 hatch with this build hes talking about. He says its unscoutable because you do 1 rax in base and 1 maka rax rally marines to the Z expo and pull 5-6 scvs with rine support. Have 1 scv build a bunker while your rines and other scvs make short work of any lings. Stutter step micro is so effective vs non-speed lings which are impossible to get this fast if you hatch first. If the Z somehow manages to survive this you just switch to tanks and do a quick tank push. stop please. completely not what im reffering to. i never go hatch first, its a gamble build. first off, i never said "Unbeatable". It is beatable, but it is extremely hard to scout correctly. marines catch drones very fast, and a handful of marines at the front make it very hard to see if this is infact what he is doing. there is a new build on the asian server which is basically a marine / scv timing rush. they often times use a scan to see exactly what you have 1 time and adjust the attack timing to fit it. its far better than the rushes foxer was doing to nestea. roaches probably would stop it, but if they use that scan i was talking about, they simply expand and your economy is quite bad with a handful of roaches. its quite a hard build to play vs right now on the asian server, and getting very popular.
Sorry for the assumption.
What about throwing one or two crawlers down when that scan goes off that early?
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On November 19 2010 14:16 Velladin wrote:
Would a roach warren with some micro and 1 spine crawler be enough to stop this? I mean, if you do stop this, it is an all-in which means the Terran is kind of screwed...
Think about this for a second. You haven't scouted it. Why would you throw down a warren. You throw on down blind and pump 5 Roaches and a Crawler. Artosis mentions terrans always scan when doing this build. He see's you just wasted 7 larva that coudl've been mining drones, expands, pulls ahead, and what're you left with? Early warren and crwaler with no use?
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On November 19 2010 13:58 danson wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2010 13:54 Shikyo wrote:
How are you behind after 2-3 spine crawlers? He's not exactly 1rax CCing and even that doesn't really get ahead of the Z. Pool-first doesn't really give you worse econ than hatch-first because of faster Queen. After the 2-3 or w/e spines you can tech really freely and make only drones for a long time, spine crawlers are extremely light on the larvae so you have many more for the drones than if you made speedlings. He also is going to spend a mule to scan you, so you really shouldn't be behind alot if at all. 3 spine crawlers = 300min + 150m to remake drones + no mining time on drones while remaking (~75) costs you over 500min in minerals and mineral potential, while the only thing is cost terran is MAYBE 280min + a look at your tech. your spines, rather useless from now on... his marines, still useful
You don't remake anything. Imagine you make 6 Zerglings, that's 3 larvae, okay? Now imagine those are 3 drones instead. They never mined, they never were going to mine. They were intended to be combat units from the beginning, you lose no mining time at all. You lose 3 larvae and 450 minerals.
You can't look at it so black-and-white, just the scan by the Terran costs over half of that cost and the fact you can safely drone for a while makes it more than worth it.
Seriously pisses me off when people consider spine crawlers to cost mining time.
What the spines do is let you drone up, which lets you go ahead in economy. Also they are useful, they can be moved to chokepoints, strategic locations(on the side of the gold base in metal for instance), to your third base, etc. It's not only about comparing units cost-by-cost. It's an extremely cheap price to pay if building 3 crawlers shuts their attack down.
I'm not sure if it does, though, and if it doesn't, then this is all irrelevant.
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On November 19 2010 13:55 Artosis wrote:
just to clear up a few things:
the rush comes wayyyyyyyy before you have any tech. terran gets 0 gas. just scv/marine pumping.
if you make too many drones, they will move out faster. if you make lots of lings, they will wait a bit longer.
right now i like baneling nest right after lair starts, with constant attempts at scouting. idra mentioned that he thinks you might need baneling nest before lair starts.
if i hit another terran ill post the rep, but this time of the day its only zergs on asia for whatever reason.
Help me out here Artosis, but the scan for this push comes earlier then a "typical" scan timing does it not? Shouldn't that be an indicator of the early aggression? Even so, overlords should scout the amassing marines and you should be able to notice the missing buildings in his main.
I do not mean the following to be insulting, it's just my opinion.
This whole "he delays the push or just expands" excuse is bullshit for the record, it just sounds like you're closing your mind. The same could be said from his perspective:
"if I attack right now he'll just make a couple spine crawlers / roaches / banelings and the push will fail and then I'm way behind"
You're better then that.
Now, I do acknowledge the potency of this push and the difficulty of scouting and defending it but all in all it's not "unscoutable" just "new"
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Oh right, if he scans when you say he does, it's his first scan. That gets him WAY behind in economy by itself, and he can't properly expand without the mule's income. Remember he still won't have a gas either, so you don't need to worry about any gimmicks and have complete knowledge.
Also how is it unscoutable? You scout no gas -> scouted. You scout the CC not making an SCV -> scouted. He also can't afford to build a marine and an orbital at the same time as the first barracks finishes if he's going for this unless he delays his depot, so if you see that -> scouted / supply blocked for a while.
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On November 19 2010 14:17 ch33psh33p wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2010 14:16 Velladin wrote:
Would a roach warren with some micro and 1 spine crawler be enough to stop this? I mean, if you do stop this, it is an all-in which means the Terran is kind of screwed... Think about this for a second. You haven't scouted it. Why would you throw down a warren. You throw on down blind and pump 5 Roaches and a Crawler. Artosis mentions terrans always scan when doing this build. He see's you just wasted 7 larva that coudl've been mining drones, expands, pulls ahead, and what're you left with? Early warren and crwaler with no use?
because the early warren doesn't stop other forms of harass and Roaches are completely useless except against this specific early marine push. Also, once you make those 7 larva worth of units that could be mining drones you nothing for the rest of the game and don't scout his expansion or anything else productive, instead you wait for the push to come for eternity.
Also, spine crawlers have 0 use against anything else in the game, in fact they despawn after 15 seconds of idleness so you have to time their construction perfectly.
If you scout anything at all which might indicate early pressure you would be placing spine crawlers down to help defend, would you not?
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Everyone should stop assuming they know timings etc of the build until either
a) artosis provides replays
b) " writes up the bo extensively
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edit : didn't read very well
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On November 19 2010 14:33 deth wrote:
Everyone should stop assuming they know timings etc of the build until either
a) artosis provides replays
b) " writes up the bo extensively
That's why I asked for his help explaining it - though it's hardly difficult to guess the timings if it's early enough to punish hatch-first significantly more then pool-first.
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On November 19 2010 14:33 deth wrote:
Everyone should stop assuming they know timings etc of the build until either
a) artosis provides replays
b) " writes up the bo extensively
"2 barracks, cuts one SCV, no gas" what more do you want? Do the supply numbers REALLY matter?
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as stated in TL rules, dont call something unbeatable.
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On November 19 2010 14:37 SubPointOA wrote:
as stated in TL rules, dont call something unbeatable.
psst, learn to read what artosis really said
first off, i never said "Unbeatable". It is beatable, but it is extremely hard to scout correctly. marines catch drones very fast, and a handful of marines at the front make it very hard to see if this is infact what he is doing.
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Surprise yet another unscoutable all-in early game push for terrans I dont know why but its always terrans that come up with these, how would blizzard have to tweak the race to prevent things like this? If more come you'd have to be psychic to play vs a terran since they can deny scouting so easily. Was it like this in BW? I didnt play it all that much so havent got a clue really.
And the best way to get it "fixed" btw is to spread it, so that people abuse it and break the TvZ matchup, proning Blizzard to swift action. Hence Artosis is letting people know about it.
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On November 19 2010 14:37 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2010 14:33 deth wrote:
Everyone should stop assuming they know timings etc of the build until either
a) artosis provides replays
b) " writes up the bo extensively "2 barracks, cuts one SCV, no gas" what more do you want? Do the supply numbers REALLY matter?
the time of an attack in varying circumstances, as well as transitions (lololo transitioning out of "unbeatable strategy") and numbers of supporting scv etc. make significant differences. The foxer style 12/14 all-in can be described by simply saying "2 barracks, cuts one SCV, no gas", but this is apparently very different.
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It's a foxer allin but refined it seems ?
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On November 19 2010 14:37 SubPointOA wrote:
as stated in TL rules, dont call something unbeatable.
It was the OP the one who said that. Thread title should be edited
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Also the timing of the attack, Artosis said it's after scanning and it has to be the first scan to be in time, so assuming 10depot, the earliest scan possible will be 100 seconds after the first depot finishes, after which is the attack timing. Ta-da, I just got you the earliest attack timing assuming he'll scan.
Meh this kind of a timing makes no sense. If it's the second scan you add 100 more seconds to this, and then the earliest attack is going to include approximately 7 marines and 8-12 SCVs. Okay, sounds better.
So we can conclude that the earliest actual attack timing is 200 seconds from when the first depot finishes. That'll be around 4:30+ minutes of gametime, and you'll have roaches out.
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On November 19 2010 14:40 deth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2010 14:37 Shikyo wrote:On November 19 2010 14:33 deth wrote:
Everyone should stop assuming they know timings etc of the build until either
a) artosis provides replays
b) " writes up the bo extensively "2 barracks, cuts one SCV, no gas" what more do you want? Do the supply numbers REALLY matter? the time of an attack in varying circumstances, as well as transitions (lololo transitioning out of "unbeatable strategy") and numbers of supporting scv etc. make significant differences. The foxer style 12/14 all-in can be described by simply saying "2 barracks, cuts one SCV, no gas", but this is apparently very different.
difference between this (from what I'm reading) and foxer's style is that foxer sends ~1-3 ish marines with lots of scv's.
this one waits and builds a stockpile of marines, scans you to see what you're doing, and depending on what information, moves out and kills you, OR (if you have defenses out) just expands to gain an extremely large lead ahead of you
on another note, I wonder if how this build'll fare in TvT or TvP anyways...
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On November 19 2010 14:40 unkkz wrote:Surprise yet another unscoutable all-in early game push for terrans I dont know why but its always terrans that come up with these, how would blizzard have to tweak the race to prevent things like this? If more come you'd have to be psychic to play vs a terran since they can deny scouting so easily. Was it like this in BW? I didnt play it all that much so havent got a clue really. And the best way to get it "fixed" btw is to spread it, so that people abuse it and break the TvZ matchup, proning Blizzard to swift action. Hence Artosis is letting people know about it.
Come on! Are we going to reverse to the pre patch 1.1.2 mentality? Almost all the unscoutable openings were figured out eventually. Lets not call for a nerf when we don't even know the details.
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The strat is very map dependent, but I've found that if you get an overlord that sees the second rax, just plop down the banelings nest and you can survive fine. even plop down a spine or two to be safe if you, say, 14 hatch.
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@Artosis
ok let me get this straight. it's a build that does:
- fast 2 rax (keep building marines)
- skips one SCV
- goes for an OC + scans the opponent
- if the player sees you droning up, they'd attack at that point
- if not (sees crawlers or zerglings/speedlings or banelings or roachs) they'll expand
question though, when they attack, do they also send some scv's, do they also do bunker pressure, or is the amount or marines make it unnecessary to build bunkers/etc?
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somehow I'm guessing it's viable in TvP too unless P gets a sentry quickly (though I'm not sure the timings) o_o
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This thread is going to make my day today. prob going to get alot of lols out of it.
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That was a poor example in my opinion. If green engaged the marines as they were coming up his ramp, repaired the tank with three SCVs, and sent 3 or 4 SCVs as meatshields, he would have held that off.
This rush actually seems less effective than the very hard ai.
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Kanye West actually just told Tweetosis he thinks this build has been around for a while.
![[image loading]](http://www.gosutrolling.com/kanye2.png)
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On November 19 2010 15:07 tikalal wrote:That was a poor example in my opinion. If green engaged the marines as they were coming up his ramp, repaired the tank with three SCVs, and sent 3 or 4 SCVs as meatshields, he would have held that off. This rush actually seems less effective than the very hard ai.
really though it's kinda hard to say exactly if it is the build or not, until artosis fights against it again and posts the replay ~.~'
also, I wonder (though kinda hard to find out) if this is affecting the lower leagues in Korea too...
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This really doesn't sound that new. Maybe people who don't play team games at all wouldn't recognize it, but it's a pretty standard build:
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2_Rax_Orbital
It's simply been adapted for 1v1. I do it all the time in 3v3s to defend or support an early rush. You can easily expo off it or get double gas to tech. I think somebody else brought it up a week or so ago as the way to pressure zerg FE and we all agreed it was the 2 rax orbital build.
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On November 19 2010 15:08 evoli wrote:Kanye West actually just told Tweetosis he thinks this build has been around for a while.
I knew he was behind the most unbeatable rush of ALL TIME!
LOL. I don't know if I should stay here because people have been making humorous comments but I sense a lot of wrath in the future
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Could people stop assuming it's one of a multitude of different 2 rax builds until Artosis actually provides a solid example.
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On November 19 2010 15:07 tikalal wrote:That was a poor example in my opinion. If green engaged the marines as they were coming up his ramp, repaired the tank with three SCVs, and sent 3 or 4 SCVs as meatshields, he would have held that off. This rush actually seems less effective than the very hard ai.
TELL THAT TO THE 2000+ Diamonds rolf
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I appreciate Artosis' comments in this thread and they are very informative (thank you for shutting down 3 spine crawlers as a valid strat...). But if this thread were about anyone else it would be locked. There's no point in discussing this strategy without a replay of video. For example, I'm not convinced a build like this is unscoutable since no gas is taken. It would take some sort of early game adaptation to block the ramp in time. But the point is, we don't know without a replay. All this thread is doing right now is fuel complaining and uninformed commentary on TvZ.
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On November 19 2010 15:08 evoli wrote:Kanye West actually just told Tweetosis he thinks this build has been around for a while.
huh this is a joke right, just have to be sure, because I actually checked his twitter when I read this and saw nothing of that sort O.O
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On November 19 2010 15:21 EtherealDeath wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2010 15:08 evoli wrote:Kanye West actually just told Tweetosis he thinks this build has been around for a while. huh this is a joke right, just have to be sure, because I actually checked his twitter when I read this and saw nothing of that sort O.O
....yes this is a joke..(you can't delete tweets)
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Incoming marine build time nerf.
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On November 19 2010 14:25 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2010 13:58 danson wrote:On November 19 2010 13:54 Shikyo wrote:
How are you behind after 2-3 spine crawlers? He's not exactly 1rax CCing and even that doesn't really get ahead of the Z. Pool-first doesn't really give you worse econ than hatch-first because of faster Queen. After the 2-3 or w/e spines you can tech really freely and make only drones for a long time, spine crawlers are extremely light on the larvae so you have many more for the drones than if you made speedlings. He also is going to spend a mule to scan you, so you really shouldn't be behind alot if at all. 3 spine crawlers = 300min + 150m to remake drones + no mining time on drones while remaking (~75) costs you over 500min in minerals and mineral potential, while the only thing is cost terran is MAYBE 280min + a look at your tech. your spines, rather useless from now on... his marines, still useful You don't remake anything. Imagine you make 6 Zerglings, that's 3 larvae, okay? Now imagine those are 3 drones instead. They never mined, they never were going to mine. They were intended to be combat units from the beginning, you lose no mining time at all. You lose 3 larvae and 450 minerals. You can't look at it so black-and-white, just the scan by the Terran costs over half of that cost and the fact you can safely drone for a while makes it more than worth it. Just stop posting seriously, you're terrible. I could of used those 450 minerals on 2 queens and 3 drones! Do you see the Econ lose? If you don't you save three drones plus get three more drones and two queens Seriously pisses me off when people consider spine crawlers to cost mining time. What the spines do is let you drone up, which lets you go ahead in economy. Also they are useful, they can be moved to chokepoints, strategic locations(on the side of the gold base in metal for instance), to your third base, etc. It's not only about comparing units cost-by-cost. It's an extremely cheap price to pay if building 3 crawlers shuts their attack down. I'm not sure if it does, though, and if it doesn't, then this is all irrelevant.
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artosis, you mention you never hatch first. What do you do instead? In all of my matchups besides ZvZ I pretty much rely on hatching first. (when someone messes with that I want to end it all though, heh)
I just feel like the production is necessary, but if top zergs consider it too risky then I should probably stick to pooling first.
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I wonder if one of my regular builds would hold it off?
From the timings of the example posted earlier, I'd have 1 zealot and 2 stalkers when the 5 marines come up the ramp (5:30), At 5:45 I'd have another stalker, and at 6:07 I'd add 1 stalker and 1 zealot. This build cuts no probes so I'd have 30 probes to their 19 at 6:07.
Even if I needed to pull probes off, think I could survive, maybe even stay ahead?.
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ah, he didn't say unbeatable he said unscoutable...
btw artosis also said during gls2 finals that hatch first is instant gg for zerg (paraphrasing here)... and guess what ? + Show Spoiler +we saw 6 hatch first iirc.
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This push reminds me a lot of the 4 marine SCV all in that was nerfed in beta.
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lol, my favorite reply is the kid who says you will have roaches by 4:30.
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On November 19 2010 16:01 tikalal wrote:
I wonder if one of my regular builds would hold it off?
From the timings of the example posted earlier, I'd have 1 zealot and 2 stalkers when the 5 marines come up the ramp (5:30), At 5:45 I'd have another stalker, and at 6:07 I'd add 1 stalker and 1 zealot. This build cuts no probes so I'd have 30 probes to their 19 at 6:07.
Even if I needed to pull probes off, think I could survive, maybe even stay ahead?.
I just messed with it some but your scv count is way off I think. At 5:00 you have 10 marines at your own ramp, 2 rax's, an orbital and 19 scvs. You also have enough energy for a scan at this point, and enough minerals in the bank (605) to expand if you don't like what you see with the scan. This is primarily an opener vs zerg because lings without speed get poop'd on by marines. I don't know enough about this build as to when it actually hits the front door of the enemy though. You could skip the first mule and use the first energy to scan too, but that will delay your expansion.
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alright just tried it against a 2200 Zerg on Lost Temple. You can scout it by keeping an overlord on the little ledge by their mineral chain. Keep a good eye on it and notice when some scv's move out. If you see that throw down a spine or two.
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On November 19 2010 16:16 Komsa wrote:
alright just tried it against a 2200 Zerg on Lost Temple. You can scout it by keeping an overlord on the little ledge by their mineral chain. Keep a good eye on it and notice when some scv's move out. If you see that throw down a spine or two.
so what if they are cross positions or like on Xel'Naga Caverns, how're you going to get your overlord to their base in time/without it dying on the way/etc? >_>...geh.
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Australia8532 Posts
On November 19 2010 14:33 deth wrote:
Everyone should stop assuming they know timings etc of the build until either
a) artosis provides replays
b) " writes up the bo extensively
Agreed. Artosis says "X is happening on the KN servers!" and a lot of people go nah not true; I just looked out my window and saw a blue car.. Tell me I'm lying?? Lol
P.s. Deth did I just watch a replay of u vs CatZ on HD channel?
If so, epic
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Yup! I'm very interested in this replay.
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On November 19 2010 16:13 BWILLdur wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2010 16:01 tikalal wrote:
I wonder if one of my regular builds would hold it off?
From the timings of the example posted earlier, I'd have 1 zealot and 2 stalkers when the 5 marines come up the ramp (5:30), At 5:45 I'd have another stalker, and at 6:07 I'd add 1 stalker and 1 zealot. This build cuts no probes so I'd have 30 probes to their 19 at 6:07.
Even if I needed to pull probes off, think I could survive, maybe even stay ahead?. I just messed with it some but your scv count is way off I think. At 5:00 you have 10 marines at your own ramp, 2 rax's, an orbital and 19 scvs. You also have enough energy for a scan at this point, and enough minerals in the bank (605) to expand if you don't like what you see with the scan. This is primarily an opener vs zerg because lings without speed get poop'd on by marines. I don't know enough about this build as to when it actually hits the front door of the enemy though. You could skip the first mule and use the first energy to scan too, but that will delay your expansion.
Just from the replay that guy posted earlier, he had 5 marines at the opponent's ramp at 5:30 with 5 SCVs coming at 5:45. They had 19 SCVs total at 6:07, which is when I have 30 probes.
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On November 19 2010 12:07 Raiden X wrote:Artosis should provide a replay. Or we can't help him.
haha lol ugh strat forum jokes shouldn't actually make me laugh out loud
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This looks very much like it:
STRainbow v ogsTheWind
http://www.sc2rep.com/replays/show/id/2963
Goes for 2 rax in base, then 3 proxy. No gas at all, hits right before speed upgrade and before any bannelings can be built.
edit: He doesn't scan, as he seems to have enough info from his scouting scv, but I would suspect timings are very similar...
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^Though I doubt it is, I hope that somehow is it. I wish they had never changed the mining from BW. Everyone has a ton of money for no reason because of it.
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I dunno, he went a very late gas, so a very late speedling and a very late baneling nest. I usually build my baneling nest after i started lair, but this could be easily done before lair
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er this "build" has been around since early beta, it's about as basic as it gets, although it's slightly different than it was in beta because now you gotta build a depot first, but otherwise it's the same ez concept. maybe it died down temporarily with the silly depot req change so it seems "new". and crawlers ARE a valid counter
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I speculate that 90% of this is exaggeration from Artosis, I love you artosis and all you do, but you are known for "everyone is so much stronger than us, uhhh, why do my limbs hurt all the time" (Thanks iNcontrol)
Please prove me wrong so i can watch some OP build that Blizz has to start working on asap to fix xD
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1 gate robo gets crushed by this so hard. Many terrans are doing this on NA ladder, i'd say 25% do this build, 25% go 4 rax, and 50% go for marine/banshee/raven at least in games I've had in the past few days.
To stop it you have to at least 2 gate and be very diligent about scouting.
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something does not add up here, T wastes first scan to see whats up and loses mule but putting 3 spines is a waste puting Z way behind?
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so if you build a roach warren but still make drones and not any roaches, could you keep an eye on things and spawn some roaches only if/when he moves out? Possibly arranging your build so that you always have a bit of spare larva for emergencies? Surely just throwing down the warren for safety won't hurt your econ that badly.
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Perhaps saving larvae could do something for this. Build Roach Warren, keep low drone production going, when you scout him moving out morph some Roaches and turn them all into Drones if he expands.
Also, if Roaches deal with this effectively, wouldn't Roach pressure be a good counter to this build (build Roaches to defend and attack with them if they don't pressure you)? The Roach attack would probably buy you time to drone+expand or deal heavy economic damage. Perhaps Roach travel time would be too long, though, making this kind of toothless, or maybe the wall-in would be strong enough to allow the Marines to win the fight easily.
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There's obviously a huge emphasis on saving larva to be used on as many drones as possible. If this is the case, why not build a bunch of queens? They can soak up decent damage and spread a ton of creep early on. Your larva remain untouched, the hatch provides another unit producing cycle. The drawback is you're behind on tech. Perhaps after the first hundred gas for ling speed, pull drones off gas as you pump queens. Queens + speed lings might be able to stop this push on creep.
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remind me of my silver day which got the mass marines terran all the time=_= the solution is rather simple(the opponents are pretty average players obviously) - just always cautious they do this strat and run a ling to the ramp to see if there are >5marines and he is still making them, pumping lings nonstop(maybe bling if he is slow), hide them to unusual spot(avoid they scan), surround and kill ->bling bust depot speedling run by = gg.
However, i ve always supposed that this strat will work pretty well if executed correctly at high level (eg bringing a tank with them or earlier timing attack). i hate foxer for a passion because of my own experience 
edit: holy sh!T, i just watched this and i am speechless if every tvz will be like this in gsl3 lol http://www.sc2rep.com/replays/show/id/2963
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Hmm Yesterday I've lost a game against a 2 rax that seemed to look like what Artosis describes. Note that I played badly and I won't provide the replay (one of those nights) because my own timings being off that wouldn't help the thread at all. However here is what I think happens with this build:
From the terran part : build a fast 2 rax (second rax was started while the first wasn't finished, I managed to delay it a bit by drone killing the scv building it but that was like 3s delay). Build marines and do a delayed push with a variable amount of marines (scan went down before the attack as Artosis said).
He attacked with around 15 marines in a tight ball when my lair was starting.
From my point of view:
Close position on Metal so I went 14 gas/pool then expand at 15. Scouted the two rax as I said (I believe they went down at around 12/13 scvs not so sure). . So I thought it was a foxer wannabee and made a batch of lings (around 10/15 to surround the first rines). They were too early maybe because he didn't attack with like 5 marines.I sent a ling at the front seen a few marines (not that much). Start a lair. My food is around 35 at that time. Then a ball of 15 marines inc.
I can't attack with the speedlings I have cause they would die instantly while not killing rines (more marines than speedlings is bad news). So I station them behind to prepare a surround. Unfortunately he rushes between the expo hatch and the mineral lines with his marine ball and it prevents any surround (close position, the new batch of lings wasn't ready before he was at my base. Also : bad reaction time on my part, I played bad the whole night)). Anyway the idea is that I send my hatched lings in my main, lose the expo drones cause I played bad and think I started a baneling nest but I didn't at that time. The expo goes down and with the broodlings I surround, clean the rines.
10s later the same push arrives, it appears I didn't start my baneling nest at all (playing mind tricks on myself ) So gg. (The push was followed a bit later by some helions anyway).
Thoughts:
Lings won't cut it if you don't make a lot of them. The marines walking in a ball will destroy your lings easy in my opinion. Early Baneling nest should be a response (like the old 1 base baneling bust timing maybe). However timing wise if you're on two bases I don't see it happen fast enough for the first push. For the second push I should have had some banes ready though.
If you can scout it early, maybe a baneling all in on one base can win you outright the game too but that should be tested.
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MadFrog put one more hatch in his base after he saw double rax of BratOK, and won easily. The key is that terran sacs eco/tech for early pressure but once zerg has double hatch T can't do shit. Zerg's economy booms after they plant an exp.
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On November 19 2010 19:03 bokeevboke wrote:
MadFrog put one more hatch in his base after he saw double rax of BratOK, and won easily. The key is that terran sacs eco/tech for early pressure but once zerg has double hatch T can't do shit. Zerg's economy booms after they plant an exp.
the problem is before the economy kicks in the rush will be at your door, economy starts once you start saturating your expo, not once you plant it.
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
Blizzard should've given out less random buffs for Terran. 45 HP marines klol? What exactly warranted those 5 HP?
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Cool build!
Just tried this vs. Hard AI and won at around the same timings as the linked replays.
Based on the replays, I realized the lynchpins for this build's success is to keep falling back to the last rally point every time the marine ball drops significantly (imho, less than 11 marines) and continual pressure.
This results in an ever-increasing sized bio ball o'doom.
By 16th minute I had 32+ marines and a thor which never saw battle. I had upgraded to 2/1 without ever using stim once.
Stutter-step-in to maximize damage (every marine firing), and
using stutter step to withdraw and regroup.
Marine rushy
It was awesome! Completely crushed AI's Roach + Hydralisk build.
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On November 19 2010 18:44 BurningSera wrote:remind me of my silver day which got the mass marines terran all the time=_= the solution is rather simple(the opponents are pretty average players obviously) - just always cautious they do this strat and run a ling to the ramp to see if there are >5marines and he is still making them, pumping lings nonstop(maybe bling if he is slow), hide them to unusual spot(avoid they scan), surround and kill ->bling bust depot speedling run by = gg. However, i ve always supposed that this strat will work pretty well if executed correctly at high level (eg bringing a tank with them or earlier timing attack). i hate foxer for a passion because of my own experience edit: holy sh!T, i just watched this and i am speechless if every tvz will be like this in gsl3 lol http://www.sc2rep.com/replays/show/id/2963
Lol, this is nothing like the build Artosis described.
HT indeed goes for a 2 rax before orbital build without gas, but then builds 3 proxy raxes -_-'
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this will be cool until zergs rush spine crawler after pool and creep first queen.
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On November 19 2010 15:30 cHaNg-sTa wrote:
Incoming marine build time nerf.
"to adress the problem of terrans being able to dump minerals too quickly with the combination of barracks and reactors"
Sorry for the troll, I'm actually a random!
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On November 19 2010 19:03 bokeevboke wrote:
MadFrog put one more hatch in his base after he saw double rax of BratOK, and won easily. The key is that terran sacs eco/tech for early pressure but once zerg has double hatch T can't do shit. Zerg's economy booms after they plant an exp.
Madfrog prob. just does that, because his macro is pretty bad.
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On November 19 2010 20:37 Holy.BR wrote:
this will be cool until zergs rush spine crawler after pool and creep first queen.
This build is extremely terrible for econ though which Z is already behind on in the beginning of the game.
Why not just stop at 14 drones and pump lings non-stop while you're at it?
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On November 19 2010 20:37 Holy.BR wrote:
this will be cool until zergs rush spine crawler after pool and creep first queen.
LOL
If that became standard due to this build then zerg would be terrible.
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why is a spine crawler bad for econ again? It saves larva,
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best way to look at it is 150 minerals wasted for offense.
Holy also mentions going pool first so that your queen can put down some creep instantly.
If you go pool first, you NEED to spend that first 25 energy on larva or you're SUPER behind on econ.
These two things combined are basically all-in for the Z player and he still has 0 offense.
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Seems to me that Roaches and Queen spam would easily stop any kind of marine shananigans. Using the first scan seems like a horrible idea from a Terran PoV, talk about raping your own economy.
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Germany139 Posts
On November 19 2010 13:25 Artosis wrote:
stop please. completely not what im reffering to. i never go hatch first, its a gamble build.
So finaly we have it officialy: Zerg was "economicaly cheesing" us the past weeks!
Artosis, thank you man, thank you for your coverage of the qualifiers and for bringing the trends from the land of the Gods to us. You 're my handsome nerd!
On November 19 2010 13:38 AndAgain wrote:
So we got that to look forward to in the GSL... This is cranking out to be a pretty lame GSL.
Just because games arent played the way one likes, it doesnt mean they are lame. As long as the Terran attack is not broken and can be faced with a somehow generic build (and timed scouting, maybe with SCV counting), this is just another step in the evolution.
Coming from chess I know it's history, and I can tell you: chess in the 15th century was all cheese, from a modern point of view! What I want to say is: SC2 is evolving!
On November 19 2010 14:40 unkkz wrote:Surprise yet another unscoutable all-in early game push for terrans I dont know why but its always terrans that come up with these, how would blizzard have to tweak the race to prevent things like this?
Yeah, Blizzard should do this, and while they are on it, they should "fix" also the ability of Zerg and Protoss (in a lesser degree) to produce everything out of one Building, so we can predict what the are planing to compose their army off... You like my idea?
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Compared to sc1 the game designers made zerglings weaker by altering the rate of fire for the units relative to each other. Nowadays, one zergling no longer beats one marine straight up. I always thought this was a good thing for tvz so i liked the new setup. I also thought pvz had more problems early game than tvz because protoss units have 1 armor and stalkers are way too fast. So i am curious about this new development as well.
If this indeed turns out to be an imbalanced build it would be very hard to fix it by nerfing terran/buffing zerg as terran is a bit weak in macro games already. And you must also consider the protoss side of things when balancing the game.
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On November 19 2010 23:41 50bani wrote:
Compared to sc1 the game designers made zerglings weaker by altering the rate of fire for the units relative to each other. Nowadays, one zergling no longer beats one marine straight up. I always thought this was a good thing for tvz so i liked the new setup. I also thought pvz had more problems early game than tvz because protoss units have 1 armor and stalkers are way too fast. So i am curious about this new development as well.
If this indeed turns out to be an imbalanced build it would be very hard to fix it by nerfing terran/buffing zerg as terran is a bit weak in macro games already. And you must also consider the protoss side of things when balancing the game.
Accurate assessment on where the issue stems from, but very wrong on the nerf logic.
Nerfing the marine would take care of the OP early game from terran (this is exactly what needs fixing in TvP as well). The problem with terran is finding a way to buff them lategame without making them unstoppable.
Terrans specifically have to be balanced on the razors edge due to their main feature being range. If units are too strong, there is no way to counter them. If they're too weak, they're unplayable.
In the case of the marine, something as simple as a 0.1 increase to their attack cooldown may sound reasonable on paper, but could cause the race as a whole to fall apart.
At any rate, I hope Blizzard decides soon. I'm so tired of OP marine play. Its not fun even when I win against it.
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On November 19 2010 20:51 MilesTeg wrote:"to adress the problem of terrans being able to dump minerals too quickly with the combination of barracks and reactors" Sorry for the troll, I'm actually a random!
Well, I've just heard from a source that was a nerf coming
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I've actually been hit by this several times on the NA servers, and I can confirm that it is rough. I haven't beat it yet, but I'm not about to call it "unbeatable." I'd say that I just haven't quite figured out how to stop it yet without MAJOR economic sacrifices.
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I am fairly certain if you are playing on the NA server you have not run into it. If you think you have feel free to post a replay. But so far everything linked is not what artosis is talking about.
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On November 20 2010 03:01 kweer wrote:
I've actually been hit by this several times on the NA servers, and I can confirm that it is rough. I haven't beat it yet, but I'm not about to call it "unbeatable." I'd say that I just haven't quite figured out how to stop it yet without MAJOR economic sacrifices.
From the sound of it, the Terran is making MAJOR economic sacrifices. The problem is, the sacrifice is always paying off because the strategy is virtually undetectable until it's too late.
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On November 20 2010 01:39 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2010 23:41 50bani wrote:
Compared to sc1 the game designers made zerglings weaker by altering the rate of fire for the units relative to each other. Nowadays, one zergling no longer beats one marine straight up. I always thought this was a good thing for tvz so i liked the new setup. I also thought pvz had more problems early game than tvz because protoss units have 1 armor and stalkers are way too fast. So i am curious about this new development as well.
If this indeed turns out to be an imbalanced build it would be very hard to fix it by nerfing terran/buffing zerg as terran is a bit weak in macro games already. And you must also consider the protoss side of things when balancing the game. Accurate assessment on where the issue stems from, but very wrong on the nerf logic. Nerfing the marine would take care of the OP early game from terran (this is exactly what needs fixing in TvP as well). The problem with terran is finding a way to buff them lategame without making them unstoppable. Terrans specifically have to be balanced on the razors edge due to their main feature being range. If units are too strong, there is no way to counter them. If they're too weak, they're unplayable. In the case of the marine, something as simple as a 0.1 increase to their attack cooldown may sound reasonable on paper, but could cause the race as a whole to fall apart. At any rate, I hope Blizzard decides soon. I'm so tired of OP marine play. Its not fun even when I win against it.
Accurate assessment indeed. Yes I am just a lowly silver slug, not worth the time it takes to be scraped from the boots of the elite diamonds , but it seems that Terran has been forced into these early pushes vs zerg. If Terran cant get fast early pressure on Zerg, it soon becomes harder and harder to push out due to Muta harass.
I'm sure at higher levels of play, it becomes a bit easier, but the general consensus is the same. Pressure Zerg and you have a chance. Let Zerg Macro up...good luck
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I dont understand ;S i just hope we get a build order or something.
12 rax 14 rax? i dont even see how this is remotely effective against a prepared 15 hatch.
as in, if you are prepared for it and are 15 hatching you might deflect the initial push and then the terran is behind right?
you should still be able to 15 hatch on certain positioons right?
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I've been watching destiny's stream, and I've seen him get hit pretty hard by this build or a slight variation of it in the last few days.
Just yesterday he seemed to have gotten the timings down, and completely raped the terrans that tried it against him.....and he even went FE. What he seemed to do was not drone up his FE until the the push either happens or its obvious that the T isn't doing that build.
He did build an extra queen, or even two extra queens just to be sure against banshee rushes, but also to get the max larvae out of the FE and drop creep. He has an OL scout near his opponents base, and as soon as he sees the push, he drops a spine or two near his FE, and tries to set his lings up to flank and keep the marines from just stutter stepping him.
When the marines get there, he tanks up front with his queens and spines, lings prevent the retreat, and the rush ends in seconds. Then he already has a expansion, a baneling nest is either done or on the way.
From there you just drone up for a minute or so, then go hard ling/banes and bust the T who has no chance from there unless you majorly screw up. The hardest part seems to be the zergling/queen micro. If you screw up, you lose half your zerglings and queen and you're done.
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uh...what's all this of "14 hatch a gamble." You can easily defend this bs marine/scv stuff with 14 hatch and be ahead afterwards. T has no gas, just the scvs/marine mass attack -> defended -> you're ahead.
Even nestea said he defended it easily in practice, and he practiced vs it what, like 200 times he said b4 the finals? lol.
Even then, lowly zerg NA scrubs can defend it and equalize + come out ahead. Unless you're trying to tell us that korean marines and scvs build faster.
Also, scrap station a balanced map...right?
All these marine/scv attacks are semi-all ins, and they're prevalent because of the state of TvZ lategame - Terran can't win. So everyone, obviously most of the koreans, are doing the most aggressive builds possible that let them have a CHANCE of getting an advantage early game, because if TvZ goes past 10 minutes we all know who wins.
at least it's sorta funny to see the "ZErg is underpowered" propaganda machine is still in effect in a time where TvZ is unwinnable late game. Any comment? Or should we further distract unknowing forum goers to a gimmicky all-in FOTW TvZ build instead of discussing something more important like how late game zvt is a freewin? But THAT'S perfecly ok! right?
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Sm3agol, try hitting enter every few sentences. Easier on the eyes. You made a good post and more people will read it if it's not a block of text.
I really wish there was a build order posted. I have no idea why there hasn't been yet, it's crazy that this thread got to seven pages and I still have very little idea as to what this build actually is (probably for the best since I play Terran XD).
So you build workers, get 2 racks (no addons, no gas) and pump out two marines at a time? And then when you get your orbital you scan their base? Oh, and somewhere in there, you cut an SCV? Then when you attack you bring 8 scvs with you?
Why 8? Aren't you basically all-in anyway? Why not just bring them all? Wouldn't just getting a quick refinery and banking 100 gas increase your production? Obviously it would kick in a little bit later, but still, if the game lasts more than four minutes the reactors will easily allow you to outproduce 2 racks.
Of course I'm a total noob (Plat) so take everything with a grain of salt. Still, it funny the thread got this long with no build order XD. Only Artosis.
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On November 20 2010 04:33 Kinney wrote:
Sm3agol, try hitting enter every few sentences. Easier on the eyes. You made a good post and more people will read it if it's not a block of text.
I really wish there was a build order posted. I have no idea why there hasn't been yet, it's crazy that this thread got to seven pages and I still have very little idea as to what this build actually is (probably for the best since I play Terran XD).
So you build workers, get 2 racks (no addons, no gas) and pump out two marines at a time? And then when you get your orbital you scan their base? Oh, and somewhere in there, you cut an SCV? Then when you attack you bring 8 scvs with you?
Why 8? Aren't you basically all-in anyway? Why not just bring them all? Wouldn't just getting a quick refinery and banking 100 gas increase your production? Obviously it would kick in a little bit later, but still, if the game lasts more than four minutes the reactors will easily allow you to outproduce 2 racks.
Of course I'm a total noob (Plat) so take everything with a grain of salt. Still, it funny the thread got this long with no build order XD. Only Artosis.
Fixed, lol.
And I think the reason you keep some of your scvs mining is so you can sustain the marine push if you, say, kill all his zerglings, but only have a few marines left. That way you can have some on the way to reinforce your push and keep the pressure on.
But it's still basically a cheese all-in, the only difference being that it comes so early that the damage you have to do to stay ahead is pretty low. It's not like a cloak banshee all in or something like that where if you scout it and get queens and detection out in time, you'll be able to just roll him over with no trouble whatsoever because you'll already have tech up, and probably a lot more units.
This build actually has a some durability as a T, because it WILL do some damage, and if you save the SCVs, you can put them back on mining, call down a few mules, bunker up, and maybe get back into the game.
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What if they made it so that reactors build units at half the speed? That way mass marine and medivac is nerfed. It also reduces the impact of reactionary Vikings, improving the viability of carriers, void rays and brood lords. Those units require a long term investment to start production and the Terran already has enough production capability of Vikings to hold them off.
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On November 20 2010 04:44 Kraz.Del wrote:
What if they made it so that reactors build units at half the speed? That way mass marine and medivac is nerfed. It also reduces the impact of reactionary Vikings, improving the viability of carriers, void rays and brood lords. Those units require a long term investment to start production and the Terran already has enough production capability of Vikings to hold them off.
If you have a reactor, you can build 2 units in one unit's build time. If a reactor built units at 50% speed, you would essentially have 2 units every 40 seconds instead of 1 every 20. The first of the two provides equal army to no add-on, so there would be essentially worthless.
It wouldn't affect this at all, though, as this appears to use no gas.
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On November 20 2010 04:52 Aequos wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2010 04:44 Kraz.Del wrote:
What if they made it so that reactors build units at half the speed? That way mass marine and medivac is nerfed. It also reduces the impact of reactionary Vikings, improving the viability of carriers, void rays and brood lords. Those units require a long term investment to start production and the Terran already has enough production capability of Vikings to hold them off. If you have a reactor, you can build 2 units in one unit's build time. If a reactor built units at 50% speed, you would essentially have 2 units every 40 seconds instead of 1 every 20. The first of the two provides equal army to no add-on, so there would be essentially worthless. It wouldn't affect this at all, though, as this appears to use no gas.
That's not right at all... If 1 unit builds in 20 seconds the other would build in 40. So you'd have 3 in 40
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On November 20 2010 04:55 SMoneyMonkey wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2010 04:52 Aequos wrote:On November 20 2010 04:44 Kraz.Del wrote:
What if they made it so that reactors build units at half the speed? That way mass marine and medivac is nerfed. It also reduces the impact of reactionary Vikings, improving the viability of carriers, void rays and brood lords. Those units require a long term investment to start production and the Terran already has enough production capability of Vikings to hold them off. If you have a reactor, you can build 2 units in one unit's build time. If a reactor built units at 50% speed, you would essentially have 2 units every 40 seconds instead of 1 every 20. The first of the two provides equal army to no add-on, so there would be essentially worthless. It wouldn't affect this at all, though, as this appears to use no gas. That's not right at all... If 1 unit builds in 20 seconds the other would build in 40. So you'd have 3 in 40
I misunderstood, I assumed he meant all units built out of a reactor barracks built at 50%, as opposed to just the additional one. Apologies to the first person I quoted.
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watch out zerg the marine are incoming i"ll try that $hit tonight
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On November 19 2010 11:54 sjschmidt93 wrote:
Could this break GSL3, as almost half of it is TvZ?
So there is no problem that almsot half of it is TvZ, give toss some love man.
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i really want to see a replay about this
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The title of the thread is really mis-informative though...
Its unscoutable, not unbeatable.
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On November 20 2010 05:19 Jermstuddog wrote:
The title of the thread is really mis-informative though...
Its unscoutable, not unbeatable.
And even thats not true. No gas for terran is alarm bells ringing for zerg. This is a ridiculous thread discussing a strategy that we dont even know the build order / details of. This should be locked.
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It's funny how on almost every single high level TvZ this is whats happening. Look at the finals with nestea and foxer. It's kinda like how every TvZ used to be 5 rax reaper =/
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On November 20 2010 05:28 timbo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2010 05:19 Jermstuddog wrote:
The title of the thread is really mis-informative though...
Its unscoutable, not unbeatable. And even thats not true. No gas for terran is alarm bells ringing for zerg. This is a ridiculous thread discussing a strategy that we dont even know the build order / details of. This should be locked.
So your solution to getting the details of the build and then assessing its stopability is to....lock the thread that is discussing it? Stop posting please.
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Every now and than artosis says something without thinking and probably untrue (I'm not saying this is the case)
ie - gsl2 ro16 race distribution is a lot better than gls1 (in gls 1 ro16 we had 2 zergs, in gls 2 we had 3 protosses, I wouldn't call that a lot better distribution)
- when talking to incontrol he said scraps station is one of most balanced maps. incontrol gives him THE LOOK. so artosis goes to elaborate that's it's balanced because it's more of a terran map (?) wtf
- in gsl2 (I believe it was tvt matchup with boxer or something like that) he kept explaining how you can see mule falling from the sky in fog of war so you can see terran's timings and scout for main. (while in fact you can only see mule in the sky if you have vision of that specific "sky". you can't see mule falling in fog of war)
- there was some cockup about xelnaga towers in gls 1
- he claimed hatch first was instant win for terran in close position.
+ Show Spoiler +later on nestea won gsl2 with hatch first almost every game
... etc etc
Even though I LOVE his commentaries so much I sometimes feel he's such a whiner : ) (I find that cute)
this is how I'd imagine story behind 2 rax build happened.
artosis lost game.
omg he only made marines and I could only scout that with overlord or with first drone.
(calls idra)
A - Greg I've lost a game : (
I - was it against terran?
A - yes
I - op noobs!!!
A - (nods)
I - did you atleast made him apologize for using mules?
A - no : ( actually he used scan instead.
I - (*pause*).... scans are imba!
A - yes : ( he used build I could only countered with OL sac, spine crawlers, roaches or banes : ( but not with speedlings : (
I - skill-less bastard! marine A move. ttt. doesn't he know that any aggression against Z before he have mutas is considered cheese! did you atleast tweet about it and explained to community how weak zergs really are?
A (Tweets about it without providing any replays or serious analysis)
warning... this post may contain sarcasm!
Just to clarify I'm not trying to say there is no new 2rax build. I'm just trying to explain that artosis is just human and there is no point in discussion sometime we've never seen. It's literally like talking about aliens and discussing how to fight them off.
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Every now and than artosis says something without thinking and probably untrue (I'm not saying this is the case)
ie - gsl2 ro16 race distribution is a lot better than gls1 (in gls 1 ro16 we had 2 zergs, in gls 2 we had 3 protosses, I wouldn't call that a lot better distribution)
- when talking to incontrol he said scraps station is one of most balanced maps. incontrol gives him THE LOOK. so artosis goes to elaborate that's it's balanced because it's more of a terran map (?) wtf
- in gsl2 (I believe it was tvt matchup with boxer or something like that) he kept explaining how you can see mule falling from the sky in fog of war so you can see terran's timings and scout for main. (while in fact you can only see mule in the sky if you have vision of that specific "sky". you can't see mule falling in fog of war)
- there was some cockup about xelnaga towers in gls 1
- he claimed hatch first was instant win for terran in close position.
+ Show Spoiler +
... etc etc
Even though I LOVE his commentaries so much I sometimes feel he's such a whiner : ) (I find that cute)
this is how I'd imagine story behind 2 rax build happened.
artosis lost game.
omg he only made marines and I could only scout that with overlord or with first drone.
(calls idra)
A - Greg I've lost a game : (
I - was it against terran?
A - yes
I - op noobs!!!
A - (nods)
I - did you atleast made him apologize for using mules?
A - no : ( actually he used scan instead.
I - (*pause*).... scans are imba!
A - yes : ( he used build I could only countered with OL sac, spine crawlers, roaches or banes : ( but not with speedlings : (
I - skill-less bastard! marine A move. ttt. doesn't he know that any aggression against Z before he have mutas is considered cheese! did you atleast tweet about it and explained to community how weak zergs really are?
A (Tweets about it without providing any replays or serious analysis)
warning... this post may contain sarcasm!
Just to clarify I'm not trying to say there is no new 2rax build. I'm just trying to explain that artosis is just human and there is no point in discussion sometime we've never seen. It's literally like talking about aliens and discussing how to fight them off.
I believe there is some truth to this statement. I support the claim that many claim something is unbeatable and is obviously overpowered if they haven't yet found a way to beat it. I believe Idra and Artosis are no exception to this. I imagine it is true that this strategy is difficult to deal with, but that we need more time to determine whether or not it is as scary as some believe it is.
For the record, we should fight aliens with zerglings.
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On November 20 2010 06:41 GosuSheep wrote:
I believe there is some truth to this statement. I support the claim that many claim something is unbeatable and is obviously overpowered if they haven't yet found a way to beat it. I believe Idra and Artosis are no exception to this. I imagine it is true that this strategy is difficult to deal with, but that we need more time to determine whether or not it is as scary as some believe it is.
For the record, we should fight aliens with zerglings.
psssst he said UNSCOUTABLE.
NOT "unbeatable"
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On November 20 2010 06:55 zhurai wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2010 06:41 GosuSheep wrote:
I believe there is some truth to this statement. I support the claim that many claim something is unbeatable and is obviously overpowered if they haven't yet found a way to beat it. I believe Idra and Artosis are no exception to this. I imagine it is true that this strategy is difficult to deal with, but that we need more time to determine whether or not it is as scary as some believe it is.
For the record, we should fight aliens with zerglings. psssst he said UNSCOUTABLE. NOT "unbeatable"
If the only way to beat a strategy is to scout it, but it is impossible to scout, then it is also unbeatable. It's simple logic, you see these all the time on IQ tests:
1) Strategy A is unscoutable;
2) Strategy A is unstoppable if it is not scouted;
3) Given 1 and 2, strategy A is unstoppable.
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i did it a few times today in remembrance of last gsl, won some lost some :/ 1900diamond so not really a proof of any kind - i will say though the push strength has nothing to do with timings on how many scv/marines, or largely none to me.
its a "Mule" imo rush cause u build 2 rax and make a crippling push that has to get the zerg below 10ish drones... wich is crippling enough that an orbital and 4-5 scv (imo max 1 scv per patch) will outproduce... to me the magic number of raxx is 3, with 2 (hidden) i don't see how the 2 rax is ever better unless u are getting gas or expanding.
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I think what many of you posting in this thread need to remember is that Artosis is one of the top Zergs in StarCraft 2 right now; sure, he hasn't qualified for GSL since season one, but he practises a ton, way more than all of you, and on a harder server. Sometimes he exaggerates a little bit, but he has a really good understanding of what's going on and what trends will become popular.
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On November 20 2010 07:22 natewOw wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2010 06:55 zhurai wrote:On November 20 2010 06:41 GosuSheep wrote:
I believe there is some truth to this statement. I support the claim that many claim something is unbeatable and is obviously overpowered if they haven't yet found a way to beat it. I believe Idra and Artosis are no exception to this. I imagine it is true that this strategy is difficult to deal with, but that we need more time to determine whether or not it is as scary as some believe it is.
For the record, we should fight aliens with zerglings. psssst he said UNSCOUTABLE. NOT "unbeatable" If the only way to beat a strategy is to scout it, but it is impossible to scout, then it is also unbeatable. It's simple logic, you see these all the time on IQ tests: 1) Strategy A is unscoutable; 2) Strategy A is unstoppable if it is not scouted; 3) Given 1 and 2, strategy A is unstoppable.
This is more less untrue. In sandbox logic like that maybe, but this game isnt that simple. One example being, It may be possible to setup your opening to be safe(or safe-ish) vs this push blindly if you think there is a good possibility it will come.
The question then becomes to determine how bad you have to gimp your economy to be able to hold off the attack, in relation to the economy of Terran when doing a opening where this is possible.
All in all im sure this will get dissected and a stable build for zerg vs this will come about soon. If this was anything but a Zerg problem I would be worried by Artosis post. But knowing him, he gets...."passionate" about his race...
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On November 20 2010 07:48 my0s wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2010 07:22 natewOw wrote:On November 20 2010 06:55 zhurai wrote:On November 20 2010 06:41 GosuSheep wrote:
I believe there is some truth to this statement. I support the claim that many claim something is unbeatable and is obviously overpowered if they haven't yet found a way to beat it. I believe Idra and Artosis are no exception to this. I imagine it is true that this strategy is difficult to deal with, but that we need more time to determine whether or not it is as scary as some believe it is.
For the record, we should fight aliens with zerglings. psssst he said UNSCOUTABLE. NOT "unbeatable" If the only way to beat a strategy is to scout it, but it is impossible to scout, then it is also unbeatable. It's simple logic, you see these all the time on IQ tests: 1) Strategy A is unscoutable; 2) Strategy A is unstoppable if it is not scouted; 3) Given 1 and 2, strategy A is unstoppable. This is more less untrue. In sandbox logic like that maybe, but this game isnt that simple. One example being, It may be possible to setup your opening to be safe(or safe-ish) vs this push blindly if you think there is a good possibility it will come. The question then becomes to determine how bad you have to gimp your economy to be able to hold off the attack, in relation to the economy of Terran when doing a opening where this is possible. All in all im sure this will get dissected and a stable build for zerg vs this will come about soon. If this was anything but a Zerg problem I would be worried by Artosis post. But knowing him, he gets...."passionate" about his race...
technically it COULD work against terran and protoss too, but obviously we can't say if it does or not until artosis or someone from korea plays against it and such...
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I'm guessing we already saw a preview of this from MarineKing/Rainbow and their 5-rax marine only builds in the G-Star tournament. (supply, rax, rax, OC, rax, rax, rax - pull SCVs for attacks, mine with MULEs)
GSL3 starts in a few days and I bet Artosis will bring it up in one of the numerous TvZs we'll see. He already mentioned something about how fast expanding is dangerous (again) compared to before the patch because Ts now have a stronger economy when they do their pushes
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I see Zergs are back to whining about Terran again. You guys have convinced Blizzard to nerf every other T unit, so why not the marine?
Because after all, any tactics that prevent a Zerg from nonstop droning should not be possible.
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On November 20 2010 08:36 Losticus wrote:
I see Zergs are back to whining about Terran again. You guys have convinced Blizzard to nerf every other T unit, so why not the marine?
Because after all, any tactics that prevent a Zerg from nonstop droning should not be possible.
He is actually right. What's next? The raven again (seeker misile was nerfed by zergwhine, now it's useless)? Or maybe this time the ghost?
If I 14 CC then I die too mass speedlings. If you do 14 hatch you die to mass marines. What's the problem here?
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On November 20 2010 08:41 Dente wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2010 08:36 Losticus wrote:
I see Zergs are back to whining about Terran again. You guys have convinced Blizzard to nerf every other T unit, so why not the marine?
Because after all, any tactics that prevent a Zerg from nonstop droning should not be possible. He is actually right. What's next? The raven again (seeker misile was nerfed by zergwhine, now it's useless)? Or maybe this time the ghost? If I 14 CC then I die too mass speedlings. If you do 14 hatch you die to mass marines. What's the problem here?
(psst... it's confirmed that even if you don't FE at 14 hatch you'll still die to it.)
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On November 20 2010 08:47 zhurai wrote:
(psst... it's confirmed that even if you don't FE at 14 hatch you'll still die to it.)
Did you know that a 5RR is impossible to stop without a bunker or without 3 raxes?
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I think what many of you posting in this thread need to remember is that Artosis is one of the top Zergs in StarCraft 2 right now; sure, he hasn't qualified for GSL since season one, but he practises a ton, way more than all of you, and on a harder server.
He is also notoriously biased, and like most Zergs, whine imba if they can't thwart an attack after 20 minutes of droning.
The audacity of Zergs to make any sort of critical comment on balance, given the state of the game today, is astonishing. You guys ever wonder WHY a build like this would be so common/necessary for Terrans?
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On November 20 2010 08:49 Dente wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2010 08:47 zhurai wrote:
(psst... it's confirmed that even if you don't FE at 14 hatch you'll still die to it.) Nestea vs foxer. Slayersboxer vs nestea. Please watch those games. You die to it if you DRONE in stead of making units.
he's not talking about that build.
please read what he SAYS before you comment on it, or don't comment on it at all? o_O
and if you say "but it is!", but you don't know the build order of it either (since artosis/another guy in korea) hasn't confirmed it. (as well as just because nobody confirmed it yet in korea, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.)
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Funny that this build is "so popular" on the asian server. Still no replays.
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he made the twitter post at like 1 am korea time, it's just now morning there. We won't hear anything about this until the wee hours of the morning no matter what.
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On November 19 2010 14:38 zhurai wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2010 14:37 SubPointOA wrote:
as stated in TL rules, dont call something unbeatable. psst, learn to read what artosis really said Show nested quote +first off, i never said "Unbeatable". It is beatable, but it is extremely hard to scout correctly. marines catch drones very fast, and a handful of marines at the front make it very hard to see if this is infact what he is doing.
zzzz Artosis = TL?
Also keep in mind:
- Nothing is imba. If you found something imba [unbeatable implies imba], it's most likely not. Find a counter.
- This is no place for balance discussion.
- B.net league placements aren't that relevant. Your Platinum spot doesn't mean anything.
I want an apology
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On November 20 2010 05:54 natewOw wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2010 05:28 timbo wrote:On November 20 2010 05:19 Jermstuddog wrote:
The title of the thread is really mis-informative though...
Its unscoutable, not unbeatable. And even thats not true. No gas for terran is alarm bells ringing for zerg. This is a ridiculous thread discussing a strategy that we dont even know the build order / details of. This should be locked. So your solution to getting the details of the build and then assessing its stopability is to....lock the thread that is discussing it? Stop posting please.
You are the one who should stop posting if you don't see the futility of discussing a vague strategy comprised of sweeping statements and no details. Until Artosis posts replays of the build order this thread is pointless.
But anyway not suprising this stupidity comes from someone who thinks stopability is a word.
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On November 20 2010 08:41 Dente wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2010 08:36 Losticus wrote:
I see Zergs are back to whining about Terran again. You guys have convinced Blizzard to nerf every other T unit, so why not the marine?
Because after all, any tactics that prevent a Zerg from nonstop droning should not be possible. He is actually right. What's next? The raven again (seeker misile was nerfed by zergwhine, now it's useless)? Or maybe this time the ghost? If I 14 CC then I die too mass speedlings. If you do 14 hatch you die to mass marines. What's the problem here?
Yes, but you don't build BOTH drones and units from your command centres.
This thread is depressing. The OP misunderstands Artosis who then takes the time to explain what he was actually saying- AND says he would post a replay if he came across it again on ladder- yet the thread is full of anti-Artosis/zerg flame? Get over yourselves. Whether or not Artosis has some bias in his commentaries/analysis- his understanding of the game is far greater than any of you flaming him for being biased, and while you shouldn't take everything that leaves his mouth as gospel, to brush off the OPs misinterpretation as "Oh it's Artosis q.q'ing about imba" is ridiculous.
If anything, the zergs out there should be thanking him they're hearing about it here before losing 4-5 ladder games in a row to it- and the Terrans should be happy that they'll probably get a few free wins before this pops up in the GSL and everyone knows how to play/counter it.
As a Protoss player... fuck. Why can't someone come up a with a decent anti-zerg strat for us soon?
ARTOSIS- thank you for your help, any updates on this build are appreciated.
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there are some crazy people in this topic.
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Has anyone considered that if it wasn't Artosis saying this, no one would care? Just because he casts SC2 games and plays in Korea doesn't mean he gets to do things different. His description of this super build is extraordinarily vague and he provides no replays. If anyone else did this, he'd be ridiculed off the forum and the thread would be closed, regardless about his so called "superior understanding of the game."
Therefore, no one should be crying for a nerf to anything. I kinda agree that this thread should be closed... it's misleading and after searching 9 pages I haven't seen one relevant high level replay yet to support any freaking out about the mechanics of the game. This thread has just been turned into a clusterfuck because some internet celebrity tweeted about it, and that's sad.
Get a replay, get a build order and get a thread title that doesn't cause an outrage amongst every Zerg player that can read.
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I can't believe this could beat a Roach build.
If you ONLY make barracks, supply depots and marines, you can have at most 8 marines out by 5 minutes, and if you're factoring in travel time to ATTACK, you're looking at about 5 marines by 4 minutes.
The current 7RR build v protoss would easily rip this apart, as 2 lings + queen will take out the 4 marines with minimal help, and the roaches that pop will likely win outright if there isn't a bunker put down immediately.
Further, not seeing replays or specific build orders, I'm tempted to call BS.
Artosis might think there's a perfect counter to the absolutely standard (NOW) opener for zerg, and he's probably right. All that's going to happen is that the absolutely standard zerg opener will change slightly to account for this timing window.
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On November 20 2010 08:50 Losticus wrote:Show nested quote +I think what many of you posting in this thread need to remember is that Artosis is one of the top Zergs in StarCraft 2 right now; sure, he hasn't qualified for GSL since season one, but he practises a ton, way more than all of you, and on a harder server. The audacity of Zergs to make any sort of critical comment on balance, given the state of the game today, is astonishing.
lol
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=164129
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There's a replay of ret vs a random on youtube, where he loses to this intense racks pressure. He opens roaches and does pretty well against it. I'm on my phome so I can't post a link, but it's on EonShiKeno's page. Might this be the build? It's on Korea...
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I can't be the only one that notices that Artosis does this every 2-3 weeks. "Amazing new build popping up on Asian servers!!! Can't be scouted!!!" Replays never surface.
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On November 20 2010 11:10 fantomex wrote:
I can't be the only one that notices that Artosis does this every 2-3 weeks. "Amazing new build popping up on Asian servers!!! Can't be scouted!!!" Replays never surface.
Last time he said there was a 2 rax before depot build, and blizzard added the depot before rax requirement very soon after, suggesting what he was saying was legit.
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On November 20 2010 11:18 Shakes wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2010 11:10 fantomex wrote:
I can't be the only one that notices that Artosis does this every 2-3 weeks. "Amazing new build popping up on Asian servers!!! Can't be scouted!!!" Replays never surface. Last time he said there was a 2 rax before depot build, and blizzard added the depot before rax requirement very soon after, suggesting what he was saying was legit.
Actually, iirc that update was because early Reapers were so unbelievably successful without much counter from any race...
Blizzard doesn't change things because Artosis says so.
Christ, once someone gains popularity people think everything they say is true and good.
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Germany139 Posts
On November 20 2010 09:21 Durp wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2010 08:41 Dente wrote:On November 20 2010 08:36 Losticus wrote:
I see Zergs are back to whining about Terran again. You guys have convinced Blizzard to nerf every other T unit, so why not the marine?
Because after all, any tactics that prevent a Zerg from nonstop droning should not be possible. He is actually right. What's next? The raven again (seeker misile was nerfed by zergwhine, now it's useless)? Or maybe this time the ghost? If I 14 CC then I die too mass speedlings. If you do 14 hatch you die to mass marines. What's the problem here? Yes, but you don't build BOTH drones and units from your command centres.
May I propose a solution?
Pool first, get an Queen, inject larva, enjoy 6 extra larva/minute.
And, that doesnt mean, you cant expo shortly afterwards...
If an Terran gets an Expo that early against Zerg he will have 6 pescy lings and a stream of them following at his ass...
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Actually, iirc that update was because early Reapers were so unbelievably successful without much counter from any race...
Blizzard doesn't change things because Artosis says so.
Christ, once someone gains popularity people think everything they say is true and good.
Read his post again... he didn't say that Blizzard changed just cus he said it or that he was "popular". He simply said that Artosis mentioned it, and that Blizzard patched shortly afterward. You're making the wrong connection here; you're simply supposed to infer that there was indeed a really strong build and that Blizzard also noticed it.
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Watch Foxer vs. Fruitdealer Games 2 and 3 from GSTAR SC2 All-Stars when VODs are up, I think was Foxer did was similar to what Artosis is talking about.
Edit; nvm ignore this completely lol
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On November 20 2010 12:23 karlmengsk wrote:
Watch Foxer vs. Fruitdealer Games 2 and 3 from GSTAR SC2 All-Stars when VODs are up, I think was Foxer did was similar to what Artosis is talking about.
not at all. Foxer went for a fairly early cc, and in fact the closest parallel I've seen to his play was jinro vs ret on blistering sands from mlg dallas.
I believe foxer opened up 2 rax no gas which is becoming fairly typical in the matchup nowadays.
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about the terran can denie scouting people. I can't throw down a 6 raks with a unit faster then the enemy workers or have flying depots D: .
This build kinda gave scv their health debuff.
when 2 marines are out scouting is over, but he would save up to many mins if he delays the 2nd barracks that long (and could build a 3rd hehe), so if nothing is happening when your drone dies, he will either instantly take double gas, or well all the stuff you do once the scv is down.
Another option is taking the gas, to soften banshee play. Would give you vision if they take their workers, really early.
Anyway, you could throw down a hatch at your ramp to have creep there, to have some more larva, get a queen and a spine, but save up some energie for heal first, you can position the spine really evil for enemy marines (and i think a spine is more worth then 6 lings at the ramp ^^). Remember you can push drones through ramp blocks then press stop and bust it or surround from behind x3. speedlings are not really needed when you have creep, if you are feared of banshees, to get a faster overseer.
The problem is the reason why terran ccs are the most expensiv ingame (Worker needs to build it !). though he can build it where you would have to waste an overlord to see what he is doing. So you would be in a hurry, (or you make an overseer at his base hope for your luck and run in an changeling while retreating the overseer to your base)
hatch allows you to still throw out drones like crap, and when you feel save you could go for the expansion pretty fast. (played that way when i was close posi to a terran and he wasn't taking both gas, when sc2 came out)
About the fast baneling nest i dislike them, but its doable, since spore crawlers are pretty cheap and save gas. (if you know that you want to get upgrades for ground ^^).
terran early mind games are funny as always, never had problems to play those with the other races as well. If you go save, you won't die to a push but will be behind etc.
Well with the hatch at the ramp, you can build "hidden tech" there since he want to see your drone count with the scan and your larva. (the tech building will be easy snipable though from below the cliff) Hiding some forces would also be an idea, but since most zergs want to only build drones ^^.
These hidden addition racks are stolen from toss though ^^.
Well can make it short, terran pushing zerg into this save play again, he had when mass reapers still worked, so he can get the eco advantage. Just like at the time everyone was scared about baneling rush, bolstering everything with hp at the ramp, so the zerg could scout the whole tech with an overlord. Or like toss is doing atm walling in with a cybercore (against runbylings), so the zerg can easily snipe it later on. from below the cliff.
(best thing that ever happened when you play random and get terran against a toss, core at the ramp = free win)
Zergs will get used to it again in ladder and pro gamers will concentrate more on the spendings of the enemy and either gamble or sacrifice a bit for scouting info, to not be behind in eco. (or they will build spines like every zerg in bw did build creep colonies and made them into sunkens once the terran pushed, well when mech play came back they build one sunken completly anyway, and spines can be moved later to save your tech from drops)
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On November 20 2010 11:23 Havefa1th wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2010 11:18 Shakes wrote:On November 20 2010 11:10 fantomex wrote:
I can't be the only one that notices that Artosis does this every 2-3 weeks. "Amazing new build popping up on Asian servers!!! Can't be scouted!!!" Replays never surface. Last time he said there was a 2 rax before depot build, and blizzard added the depot before rax requirement very soon after, suggesting what he was saying was legit. Actually, iirc that update was because early Reapers were so unbelievably successful without much counter from any race... Blizzard doesn't change things because Artosis says so. Christ, once someone gains popularity people think everything they say is true and good.
I wasn;t saying they changed it because Artosis said so, I'm saying that the last time he said there was a very strong build he wasn't just talking out of his ass like some people seem to be implying.
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On November 20 2010 10:59 CptJustin wrote:
There's a replay of ret vs a random on youtube, where he loses to this intense racks pressure. He opens roaches and does pretty well against it. I'm on my phome so I can't post a link, but it's on EonShiKeno's page. Might this be the build? It's on Korea...
If that's the build then it's nothing special. Ret misplayed that game by losing his Roaches at the Terran base.
I'd really like to see some replays of this phantom qq build. I mean, c'mon...
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On November 20 2010 11:23 Havefa1th wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2010 11:18 Shakes wrote:On November 20 2010 11:10 fantomex wrote:
I can't be the only one that notices that Artosis does this every 2-3 weeks. "Amazing new build popping up on Asian servers!!! Can't be scouted!!!" Replays never surface. Last time he said there was a 2 rax before depot build, and blizzard added the depot before rax requirement very soon after, suggesting what he was saying was legit. Actually, iirc that update was because early Reapers were so unbelievably successful without much counter from any race... Blizzard doesn't change things because Artosis says so. Christ, once someone gains popularity people think everything they say is true and good.
Yes, once people build a reputation from hard work and devotion and exhibiting high-level gameplay, they tend to...have a good reputation (shocking, I know). Artosis is obviously a proven player and has released replay packs showing his gameplay in the past. Obviously, one shouldn't take everything he says as fact, but what he says is worth at least considering, which is the point of this thread.
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On November 20 2010 13:52 out4blood wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2010 10:59 CptJustin wrote:
There's a replay of ret vs a random on youtube, where he loses to this intense racks pressure. He opens roaches and does pretty well against it. I'm on my phome so I can't post a link, but it's on EonShiKeno's page. Might this be the build? It's on Korea... If that's the build then it's nothing special. Ret misplayed that game by losing his Roaches at the Terran base. I'd really like to see some replays of this phantom qq build. I mean, c'mon...
Are you guys talking about the Steppes of War game where he went 8pool and didn't really do much damage to the Terran then gets rolled shortly after taking his nat?
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the thing you guys missreaded is... he never said "unbeteable" he said UNSCOUTABLE... thats why it is good... since you cant see it coming you cant just go "oh hes going for the 2 rax push i better go for my fast banelings" and stuff like that... since if you do that blindly you will pretty much get owned hardcore by anyone who doesnt just go for bio.
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On November 19 2010 14:25 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2010 13:58 danson wrote:On November 19 2010 13:54 Shikyo wrote:
How are you behind after 2-3 spine crawlers? He's not exactly 1rax CCing and even that doesn't really get ahead of the Z. Pool-first doesn't really give you worse econ than hatch-first because of faster Queen. After the 2-3 or w/e spines you can tech really freely and make only drones for a long time, spine crawlers are extremely light on the larvae so you have many more for the drones than if you made speedlings. He also is going to spend a mule to scan you, so you really shouldn't be behind alot if at all. 3 spine crawlers = 300min + 150m to remake drones + no mining time on drones while remaking (~75) costs you over 500min in minerals and mineral potential, while the only thing is cost terran is MAYBE 280min + a look at your tech. your spines, rather useless from now on... his marines, still useful You don't remake anything. Imagine you make 6 Zerglings, that's 3 larvae, okay? Now imagine those are 3 drones instead. They never mined, they never were going to mine. They were intended to be combat units from the beginning, you lose no mining time at all. You lose 3 larvae and 450 minerals. You can't look at it so black-and-white, just the scan by the Terran costs over half of that cost and the fact you can safely drone for a while makes it more than worth it. Seriously pisses me off when people consider spine crawlers to cost mining time. What the spines do is let you drone up, which lets you go ahead in economy. Also they are useful, they can be moved to chokepoints, strategic locations(on the side of the gold base in metal for instance), to your third base, etc. It's not only about comparing units cost-by-cost. It's an extremely cheap price to pay if building 3 crawlers shuts their attack down. I'm not sure if it does, though, and if it doesn't, then this is all irrelevant.
Curious about this as well. Wouldn't spending 450 minerals allow you to drone up safely and hold off the attack when it comes? If the Terran does scan and see that you have 3 crawlers, let's assume he retreats. He's already fairly behind on tech, no gas, no expo and you've been droning all this time. What's wrong with spinecrawlers again?
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On November 20 2010 14:36 SnowFantasy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2010 13:52 out4blood wrote:On November 20 2010 10:59 CptJustin wrote:
There's a replay of ret vs a random on youtube, where he loses to this intense racks pressure. He opens roaches and does pretty well against it. I'm on my phome so I can't post a link, but it's on EonShiKeno's page. Might this be the build? It's on Korea... If that's the build then it's nothing special. Ret misplayed that game by losing his Roaches at the Terran base. I'd really like to see some replays of this phantom qq build. I mean, c'mon... Are you guys talking about the Steppes of War game where he went 8pool and didn't really do much damage to the Terran then gets rolled shortly after taking his nat?
That's the one. I definitely think ret misplayed, but so did the terran by getting the refinery. Anyways, not sure this is even really what Artosis was talking about, just thought it loosely matched the description.
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I don't see what the problem is, we can't proxy 2 racks anymore without first building a supply depot so this timing push comes way later than any other early pressure. This is just what happens when all the Zergs get cocky and greedy thinking their safe and Terrans finally have a way to punish this Zerg style. Nothing is "broken" and nothing should be "fixed" so please stop acting like this is some OP issue because if it is then 4 gate is OP and 5 RR is OP and 14 hatch is OP and Baneling busts are OP and 3 racks timing is OP. Get it?
On November 20 2010 08:47 zhurai wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2010 08:41 Dente wrote:On November 20 2010 08:36 Losticus wrote:
I see Zergs are back to whining about Terran again. You guys have convinced Blizzard to nerf every other T unit, so why not the marine?
Because after all, any tactics that prevent a Zerg from nonstop droning should not be possible. He is actually right. What's next? The raven again (seeker misile was nerfed by zergwhine, now it's useless)? Or maybe this time the ghost? If I 14 CC then I die too mass speedlings. If you do 14 hatch you die to mass marines. What's the problem here? (psst... it's confirmed that even if you don't FE at 14 hatch you'll still die to it.)
(psssst.... it's confirmed that even if you 1 rax FE you die to roach pressure or mass ling.)
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Artosis' replies if you missed it. Please read before you type anything. (Can this go in the first post?) Would stop some people posting the wrong things.
+ Show Spoiler +stop please. completely not what im reffering to. i never go hatch first, its a gamble build.
first off, i never said "Unbeatable". It is beatable, but it is extremely hard to scout correctly. marines catch drones very fast, and a handful of marines at the front make it very hard to see if this is infact what he is doing.
there is a new build on the asian server which is basically a marine / scv timing rush. they often times use a scan to see exactly what you have 1 time and adjust the attack timing to fit it. its far better than the rushes foxer was doing to nestea.
roaches probably would stop it, but if they use that scan i was talking about, they simply expand and your economy is quite bad with a handful of roaches. its quite a hard build to play vs right now on the asian server, and getting very popular.
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ok time to teach some stuff to some folks:
"Make 3 spine crawlers" is a terrrrrrrrrrrrrrrible idea. if that's the answer, terran sees it, and then simply expands with a great economy, while yours is garbage with 3 useless spine crawlers (300 minerals + 150 minerals for drones, + 3 drones no longer mining, all of this after a pool-first (and normally speed-first as well...) build)
that = ridiculously far behind at the top levels.
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just to clear up a few things:
the rush comes wayyyyyyyy before you have any tech. terran gets 0 gas. just scv/marine pumping.
if you make too many drones, they will move out faster. if you make lots of lings, they will wait a bit longer.
right now i like baneling nest right after lair starts, with constant attempts at scouting. idra mentioned that he thinks you might need baneling nest before lair starts.
if i hit another terran ill post the rep, but this time of the day its only zergs on asia for whatever reason.
Can't comment until we get more information.
@ckw, he's saying it's unbeatable unless you scout it (but it's unscoutable atm), or if you go blind into tech. Different from what you're talking about.
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This sounds pretty scary. I have had a lot of trouble dealing with marines, there just seems to be no answer to them unless you can go infestor - and you're behind for a long time until that infestor comes out. If the T is more than vigilant with his scouting, he'll attack when the infestors hatch and are still useless and all the money you spent on them is effectively wasted. Then banelings don't work, speedlings don't work, roaches usually aren't enough, and hydra/muta gets annihilated.
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So they come up with a build designed to put on pressure(pretty much a prerequisite for any good build versus zerg). Then they scout you and if you're blind countering it they adjust to something more effective based on your defense? What exactly is the problem here? Isn't that pretty much competitive Starcraft in a nutshell?
Does not compute.
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On November 19 2010 13:25 Artosis wrote:
roaches probably would stop it, but if they use that scan i was talking about, they simply expand and your economy is quite bad with a handful of roaches. its quite a hard build to play vs right now on the asian server, and getting very popular.
If they scan you with early roaches and are deciding to expand after seeing that, then maybe just going all-in into a ling roach all-in reinforcing with speedlings might be the best way to combat that. Fight aggresion with more aggresion kyrix-style! Of course, they might not actually expand so it is definitely a gamble (what all-in isn't?), but at the same time they are also wasting a mule on a scan, so in theory it might work? There's probably something I'm overlooking here.
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Did folks only just now realize that 2 Rax openings aren't all-in?
But I don't understand why this is 'unscoutable'. Unless your drone is walled-out, you know the Terran isn't taking gas, and if he's cutting for faster barracks, there should be a detectable reduced SCV count (particularly with one SCV proxying a barracks) that would not be the case for an FE build. (An FE build would want to maximize its worker count.) No gas + reduced worker count --> early, low-tech aggression 100% of the time.
Though I confess I've never bothered hiding a 2 rax build since nobody would ever suspect 1 rax CC in 2v2.
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I lol at Artosis inspired zerg freakouts pre gsl... hype much?
Sorry I had to be THAT guy once
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It doesn't sound that hard to stop at all. Build one spine crawler and some lings. Meh.
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Wow, I've never seen so many complaining zergs... 2 rax marine pressure isn't unstoppable at all. You don't even need more than a single spine crawler. I have to OUTRIGHT kill 10+ zerglings, a queen, a hatch, something big for this pressure to be successful. Because the counter to outright marine pressure? 2 hatch in base sling bling nonstop counter pressure.
I love them guy saying reactors need to be nerfed, when this 'build' doesn't even use gas early. Reactors are the only thing that evens the play field against WARP IN ANYWHERE ON THE MAP, or PRODUCE 6-12 UNITS AT A TIME..
The reason this is unstoppable/unscoutable is the SCVs in tow to help bolster the marine numbers.
Isn't it funny though? Every terran opening gets nerfed and zergs say to us 'Hows it feel? Learn to play'. No more 5 rax reaper. No more 3 rax reaper expo. No more reactor hellions. So we're left with the lowley marine, and studder step micro to beat zergs. Now they want marines nerfed, or something else changed, so they can 14 hat safely. Ask any zerg on ladder after they expo, they all agree (as I do too) that you HAVE to expo to have a chance to win most maps vs terran. Just do. The problem is after that expo is up, and our pressure is done and we expand, we're still behind even with double mules. We have to make 2-4 more barracks, 2 factories, 2 ports, whatever that takes time and money -- then put ADD ons on. Then, start researching upgrades and making the unit.
You? Build building. Check. Hit hotkey for hatcheries, press Z or R 12 times, spread creep, inject again.
Slings counter about every single barracks unit. When more mid - high level zergs start abusing slings more, it makes marine pressure a lot harder, as you have to wait a bit longer and push smarter with walls to your back etc. And, as a mineral only counter to a mineral only unit, it just works hand in hand.
Edit - I mean using sling flanks more until you get bling speed ---
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I think that this could possibly be defended with a spine crawler and a ten pool, I play zerg but I don't know if it works, also I find that drones are really good at killing marines when they surround them, so try and get a ling drone surround in range of the spine crawler.
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On November 20 2010 23:38 zalien wrote:
I think that this could possibly be defended with a spine crawler and a ten pool, I play zerg but I don't know if it works, also I find that drones are really good at killing marines when they surround them, so try and get a ling drone surround in range of the spine crawler.
not really no =/
10 pool is going to set you back way too much if he do anything other than this.
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Some people need to be quiet and stop complaining about imbalance, or stop complaining about others complaining about imbalance. You have no authority on the matter since you either don't play on the asian servers, you don't play zerg or terran on the asian servers, you don't play at a high enough level and you haven't played against this play on the asian servers before. I don't see how you can make an argument, or try to prove a point, when you have no idea what it is and no authority on the matter. Wait for more information instead of trying to prove that terran isn't imbalanced.
I'll just say zerg had a lot of options reduced early on in beta, so don't think you're alone terrans. Calm down and wait for when you can actually see it, because I don't think many of you can even comment on the issue without throwing general arguments out.
I'm not worried about it until it transfer over to the us servers, since I'm still having trouble dealing with mass marine. One step at a time.
If they think it's a legitimate threat, we shouldn't be so quick to doubt them. But we shouldn't blindly follow.
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i'm like 20-3 in my last TvZs. I do 2 rax and then when my CC is 25 energy after 1st mule i drop 3 more rax. add gas accordingly and get shield then take scvs off gas for 5 rax rine. after you rape them up some swtich to either marauder thor hellion or MNMM domination.
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Can someone please show us some replays? I'm still yet to see one. thanks
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On November 19 2010 13:55 Artosis wrote:
terran gets 0 gas
Sounds scoutable.
Note:
EGMachine beat HuK in the Giant Bomb showmatch. He threw down 3+ spine crawlers at his nat.
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I agree that he's talking about probably Foxer builds against Nestea which was the game he won on Shak. In set 5 on Steppes, Nestea did a technical 1 base roach and banes play against it, held it off but Foxer transitioned to seige to win.
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A build order will help, and this is a more diamond level play, as myself as platinum am having trouble multi-tasking. you need critical marine split also, since stim pack won't be finished by this early push but maybe in your 3rd push
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Artosis isn`t exactly one of the top zergs on korea server at all..so if some replays or build order could be provided it would help us figure out if this is infact true.
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would like to see some replays :o
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Well seems like the 3 Rax pressure, where Protoss has to go blind Robo else every other tech gets a coinflip.
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On November 21 2010 01:41 Redunzl wrote:
i'm like 20-3 in my last TvZs. I do 2 rax and then when my CC is 25 energy after 1st mule i drop 3 more rax. add gas accordingly and get shield then take scvs off gas for 5 rax rine. after you rape them up some swtich to either marauder thor hellion or MNMM domination.
can you post a replay of this? i want to see...
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On November 21 2010 04:35 freetgy wrote:
Well seems like the 3 Rax pressure, where Protoss has to go blind Robo else every other tech gets a coinflip.
no
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On November 19 2010 11:54 sjschmidt93 wrote:
Update: Artosis says "it looks like zerg might have to get a blind baneling nest if suspecting terran has 2 barracks. probably can get it after lair though."
lol what? This basically was a must-have on EU servers already. Watch Darkforce etc. It's easy to hold any little later bio-pushes with some banelings, comes down to micro imo.
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On November 20 2010 08:36 Losticus wrote:
I see Zergs are back to whining about Terran again. You guys have convinced Blizzard to nerf every other T unit, so why not the marine?
Because after all, any tactics that prevent a Zerg from nonstop droning should not be possible.
+1...
When a Terran win a single game people want Blizzard to nerf them (look at streams on TL...).
Most zerg lose to this build because they react badly and go for 14 hatch, whatever is happening...
Give zerg 2 hatch at the beginning of the game will prevent them for whining about Terran.
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terran criers are cute your race is easy, deal with it
User was warned for this post
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Spines also work really well.
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On November 21 2010 02:25 Techno wrote:Sounds scoutable. Note: EGMachine beat HuK in the Giant Bomb showmatch. He threw down 3+ spine crawlers at his nat.
didnt know huk was a terran XD
also gl scouting up ramp vs wall in and marines ;PppP
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This guys reaction to the build and claims of you hacking were pretty hilarious, but that's not the build. I think we're talking about earlier pressure than this, as in 12 rax 14 rax 6 scv 4 marines, right?
Also you're spose to hide the 2nd rax so it's not scouted.
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wow looks like i'm switching to terran hahaha
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On November 21 2010 04:29 mango_destroyer wrote:
Artosis isn`t exactly one of the top zergs on korea server at all..so if some replays or build order could be provided it would help us figure out if this is infact true.
I'm confused by this. Why would he lie for?
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Russian Federation798 Posts
On November 21 2010 06:32 toadstool wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2010 04:29 mango_destroyer wrote:
Artosis isn`t exactly one of the top zergs on korea server at all..so if some replays or build order could be provided it would help us figure out if this is infact true. I'm confused by this. Why would he lie for?
Whether it is inf act "unbeatable" or "unscoutable" because it sure sounds scoutable to me. Anyway what is the point of discussing a strategy for so many pages without actually not quite knowing what it is.
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You guys are funny, you think you know how to stop everything and play perfectly. Obviously Artosis can be wrong sometimes, but to claim that this build is easy to stop without even knowing the build is a joke. Half of you act like you can stop marines with one spine crawler and a queen, which may be true but you are not playing top tier players that can micro. Look how good FoxeR did with similar builds and now this that this build is being more refined it's going to be very very strong.
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On November 21 2010 06:24 DDKz wrote:This guys reaction to the build and claims of you hacking were pretty hilarious, but that's not the build. I think we're talking about earlier pressure than this, as in 12 rax 14 rax 6 scv 4 marines, right? Also you're spose to hide the 2nd rax so it's not scouted.
Yeah that's why I guess it works on low level platinum.. a lot of people scout just because they're supposed to scout but don't really gain any valuable intel or know how to react (I do that a lot, sadly)
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He is talking about the similar build Foxer was using against Nestea... I REALLY don't see how you can't scout it unless you are sending your scout super suuuuuuper late.
You slightly delay a single SCV to get your 2nd rax up slightly faster to wall off before the drone can make it in your base (This should be a hint to zerg, fast 2 rax = no gas which means either fast expo or super early aggresion, this is the scouting info right here!!), and you have to cut one SCV to build one extra marine faster so you can get a CC at the proper time. I'm decent (2200 T) and I play this build vs every zerg on close positions (unless he is obviously going baneling bust or whatever, then you have to adjust). It's beatable by either building 2 spine crawlers which allows you to mass drone (No gas puts terran way behind on tech to break the spines, forced a fast expo which gives Zerg more than enough time to drone up into mid game). You can also build a single crawler on maps where you can more easier block marines from getting up your ramp or the rare play of a zerg one basing a single spine holds it off easily. You can also win in a straight up Micro Fight (Ala Foxer vs Nestea) by getting a surround on the marines in which case you win the game instantly, if you're going for fast zergling speed it's much easier to get a surround.
As zerg you should ALWAYS have lings outside his base or at a Zel Naga Tower as well. The second you see SCVs heading towards your base it should be an auto spine crawler right away.
Really I don't see how he could be talking about any other build as there really is no way to adjust the timing for faster marines.
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ugh i wish we could all read artosis' responses before responding
artosis, think you could upload a replay of this build, maybe from one of your ladder games? i want to actually see and try to understand it more before i start flaming you/complaining about terran. although if you and idra haven't figured out the best way to handle it i know for a fact none of us won't, i'm still curious to see more closely how it varies from foxer's build.
EDIT: and do you think that it would be easier to stop if it were just easier to scout? if that's the case then it might not be a case of marines being too strong but of zerg's scouting being too weak.
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Is this the build? I faced a 2 rax oc build today in craftcup where he pushed out with 8 marines & 10 scvs (I went 14 hatch) and I was able to hold it (2 waves) without any drone loss where he eventually gg'd
Here's the replay: http://screplays.com/replays/wubbles/13500
I'm 1832 Diamond & the Terran I faced is 1969 Diamond
**EDIT**
Map was Metalopolis & we were cross position, not sure how I would have done if we were close positions since the travel distance gave me time to plop down spine crawlers and get my zerglings out to hold.
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time to get some quick easy ladder points when the terran players copy and execute poorly
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On November 21 2010 06:38 Beardedclam wrote:
You guys are funny, you think you know how to stop everything and play perfectly. Obviously Artosis can be wrong sometimes, but to claim that this build is easy to stop without even knowing the build is a joke. Half of you act like you can stop marines with one spine crawler and a queen, which may be true but you are not playing top tier players that can micro. Look how good FoxeR did with similar builds and now this that this build is being more refined it's going to be very very strong.
Yeah, this section is sometimes silly like that. People always assume perfect Micro, Macro, scouting and that something is not viable accounting that. Just look at the 15 Nexus and 1 gate FE threads.
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On November 21 2010 07:05 universalwill wrote:
ugh i wish we could all read artosis' responses before responding
artosis, think you could upload a replay of this build, maybe from one of your ladder games? i want to actually see and try to understand it more before i start flaming you/complaining about terran. although if you and idra haven't figured out the best way to handle it i know for a fact none of us won't, i'm still curious to see more closely how it varies from foxer's build.
EDIT: and do you think that it would be easier to stop if it were just easier to scout? if that's the case then it might not be a case of marines being too strong but of zerg's scouting being too weak.
I read the responses, there are just severe limits to options early game when you have no gas. It's either build more Rax and more marines and vary your push timing or expand. It's really not too hard to figure out all the 2 rax openings that require to cut a single SCV. There are a total of 2 options for it and only one of them stops that Drone from getting in (early 2nd rax). Unless you're suggesting the Terran like 7 depots or something which is a joke and cuts more than 1 SCV to begin with. It's ridiculously scoutable and it's definitely not even close to impossible to hold off without investing in a Blind Baneling nest.
Unless there are some replays or at least a build order it's just Zerg QQ... I don't know what else you can even say about it and while Artosis is better than most of us he isn't close to the top of Korean Zergs.
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United States17042 Posts
Sigh. Okay. Closed, because even though artosis responds there is no replay. We would all love to see replays, and without it, there's really nothing to discuss.
It would be great if a new thread could be started with a replay.
It's hard to say why we even allowed an OP with a twitter post, but at least artosis responded, although not with a replay
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EPT
