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On November 19 2010 13:43 Artosis wrote:
ok time to teach some stuff to some folks:
"Make 3 spine crawlers" is a terrrrrrrrrrrrrrrible idea. if that's the answer, terran sees it, and then simply expands with a great economy, while yours is garbage with 3 useless spine crawlers (300 minerals + 150 minerals for drones, + 3 drones no longer mining, all of this after a pool-first (and normally speed-first as well...) build)
that = ridiculously far behind at the top levels.
Salvage for spine crawlers anyone?? XD (Dont take this srsly plz)
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On November 19 2010 13:48 windsupernova wrote:
I saw your twitter Artosis,so you say a blind Baneling nest may counter this?
Doesn't every Zerg get a baneling nest against Terran?
Banelings are really good against most bio comps that Terran throw at Zerg nowadays.
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On November 19 2010 13:51 ALivelySedative wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2010 13:43 Artosis wrote:
ok time to teach some stuff to some folks:
"Make 3 spine crawlers" is a terrrrrrrrrrrrrrrible idea. if that's the answer, terran sees it, and then simply expands with a great economy, while yours is garbage with 3 useless spine crawlers (300 minerals + 150 minerals for drones, + 3 drones no longer mining, all of this after a pool-first (and normally speed-first as well...) build)
that = ridiculously far behind at the top levels. Salvage for spine crawlers anyone?? XD (Dont take this srsly plz)
bad idea... spine crawlers instead should just be able to be placed near min, and then mine from them like mules....
thanks everyone, i just fixed sc2
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On November 19 2010 13:51 Velladin wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2010 13:48 windsupernova wrote:
I saw your twitter Artosis,so you say a blind Baneling nest may counter this? Doesn't every Zerg get a baneling nest against Terran? Banelings are really good against most bio comps that Terran throw at Zerg nowadays.
True true, but I guess he meant a super early Bling nest or something like that. If its 2 Barracks the attack must come pretty early.
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How are you behind after 2-3 spine crawlers? He's not exactly 1rax CCing and even that doesn't really get ahead of the Z. Pool-first doesn't really give you worse econ than hatch-first because of faster Queen. After the 2-3 or w/e spines you can tech really freely and make only drones for a long time, spine crawlers are extremely light on the larvae so you have many more for the drones than if you made speedlings. He also is going to spend a mule to scan you, so you really shouldn't be behind alot if at all.
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Artosis
United States2140 Posts
just to clear up a few things:
the rush comes wayyyyyyyy before you have any tech. terran gets 0 gas. just scv/marine pumping.
if you make too many drones, they will move out faster. if you make lots of lings, they will wait a bit longer.
right now i like baneling nest right after lair starts, with constant attempts at scouting. idra mentioned that he thinks you might need baneling nest before lair starts.
if i hit another terran ill post the rep, but this time of the day its only zergs on asia for whatever reason.
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blind baneling nest = autolose to T who hides various techs, especially banshee.
The build sounds interesting, would like to see a replay.
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On November 19 2010 13:54 Shikyo wrote:
How are you behind after 2-3 spine crawlers? He's not exactly 1rax CCing and even that doesn't really get ahead of the Z. Pool-first doesn't really give you worse econ than hatch-first because of faster Queen. After the 2-3 or w/e spines you can tech really freely and make only drones for a long time, spine crawlers are extremely light on the larvae so you have many more for the drones than if you made speedlings. He also is going to spend a mule to scan you, so you really shouldn't be behind alot if at all.
3 spine crawlers =
300min + 150m to remake drones + no mining time on drones while remaking (~75)
costs you over 500min in minerals and mineral potential, while the only thing is cost terran is MAYBE 280min + a look at your tech.
your spines, rather useless from now on... his marines, still useful
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I still dont fully understand what this build involves.
From what i understand its some sort of early marine timing attack?
nvm all is clear now
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On November 19 2010 13:55 Artosis wrote:
just to clear up a few things:
the rush comes wayyyyyyyy before you have any tech. terran gets 0 gas. just scv/marine pumping.
if you make too many drones, they will move out faster. if you make lots of lings, they will wait a bit longer.
right now i like baneling nest right after lair starts, with constant attempts at scouting. idra mentioned that he thinks you might need baneling nest before lair starts.
if i hit another terran ill post the rep, but this time of the day its only zergs on asia for whatever reason.
all hail king of the nerds!
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I found 2 reps with a Supply Depot -> Barracks -> Barracks build order, using sc2gears.
Z wins: http://sc2rep.com/replays/show/id/2883
T wins: http://sc2rep.com/replays/show/id/2949
both games the Z at least holds the initial rush.
EDIT: maybe not good examples.first game T attacks with 1 rine which he loses to 4 drones waiting for him. then loses next push with 3 rines vs. 8 lings and loses the game. 2nd game T proxies both raxes (very scoutable), pulls no scvs, but still wins 12 mins in. I think what Artosis may be talking about is when they turtle in base, then push out with 5 rines / 8 scvs or so.
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are they sending 8ish scvs with it?
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Won't you have a drone in their base wandering around noticing that he hasn't taken any gas? If I see no gas being taken while marines are being made I usually throw down a nest immediately.
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The "unscoutable" bit puzzles me too =/.
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On November 19 2010 14:11 onmach wrote:
Won't you have a drone in their base wandering around noticing that he hasn't taken any gas? If I see no gas being taken while marines are being made I usually throw down a nest immediately.
Good question! I was wondering this too.
The Terran response of course could be to throw down a refinery then cancel it after the drone is dead, I don't imagine it'd throw the timing of the push off enough to be a problem. If the Refinery looks late to the scouting Zerg (would it? I don't even know, I haven't played this out yet), unless we're talking pro-level the Zerg player probably then just assumes he's playing a slow Terran or that the T player did a minor build order mistake / whatever.
Edit: Hell, thrown down both refineries! Let him see them, cancel them, he's now probably assuming banshee rush.
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Would a roach warren with some micro and 1 spine crawler be enough to stop this? I mean, if you do stop this, it is an all-in which means the Terran is kind of screwed...
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On November 19 2010 13:25 Artosis wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2010 13:14 XXXSmOke wrote:
Artosis is reffering to if the Z goes hatch first. If Z goes pool first, speedlings and one crawler will stop this with ease.
I have won the last 9 TvZ's that go 14 hatch with this build hes talking about. He says its unscoutable because you do 1 rax in base and 1 maka rax rally marines to the Z expo and pull 5-6 scvs with rine support. Have 1 scv build a bunker while your rines and other scvs make short work of any lings. Stutter step micro is so effective vs non-speed lings which are impossible to get this fast if you hatch first. If the Z somehow manages to survive this you just switch to tanks and do a quick tank push. stop please. completely not what im reffering to. i never go hatch first, its a gamble build. first off, i never said "Unbeatable". It is beatable, but it is extremely hard to scout correctly. marines catch drones very fast, and a handful of marines at the front make it very hard to see if this is infact what he is doing. there is a new build on the asian server which is basically a marine / scv timing rush. they often times use a scan to see exactly what you have 1 time and adjust the attack timing to fit it. its far better than the rushes foxer was doing to nestea. roaches probably would stop it, but if they use that scan i was talking about, they simply expand and your economy is quite bad with a handful of roaches. its quite a hard build to play vs right now on the asian server, and getting very popular.
Sorry for the assumption.
What about throwing one or two crawlers down when that scan goes off that early?
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On November 19 2010 14:16 Velladin wrote:
Would a roach warren with some micro and 1 spine crawler be enough to stop this? I mean, if you do stop this, it is an all-in which means the Terran is kind of screwed...
Think about this for a second. You haven't scouted it. Why would you throw down a warren. You throw on down blind and pump 5 Roaches and a Crawler. Artosis mentions terrans always scan when doing this build. He see's you just wasted 7 larva that coudl've been mining drones, expands, pulls ahead, and what're you left with? Early warren and crwaler with no use?
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On November 19 2010 13:58 danson wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2010 13:54 Shikyo wrote:
How are you behind after 2-3 spine crawlers? He's not exactly 1rax CCing and even that doesn't really get ahead of the Z. Pool-first doesn't really give you worse econ than hatch-first because of faster Queen. After the 2-3 or w/e spines you can tech really freely and make only drones for a long time, spine crawlers are extremely light on the larvae so you have many more for the drones than if you made speedlings. He also is going to spend a mule to scan you, so you really shouldn't be behind alot if at all. 3 spine crawlers = 300min + 150m to remake drones + no mining time on drones while remaking (~75) costs you over 500min in minerals and mineral potential, while the only thing is cost terran is MAYBE 280min + a look at your tech. your spines, rather useless from now on... his marines, still useful
You don't remake anything. Imagine you make 6 Zerglings, that's 3 larvae, okay? Now imagine those are 3 drones instead. They never mined, they never were going to mine. They were intended to be combat units from the beginning, you lose no mining time at all. You lose 3 larvae and 450 minerals.
You can't look at it so black-and-white, just the scan by the Terran costs over half of that cost and the fact you can safely drone for a while makes it more than worth it.
Seriously pisses me off when people consider spine crawlers to cost mining time.
What the spines do is let you drone up, which lets you go ahead in economy. Also they are useful, they can be moved to chokepoints, strategic locations(on the side of the gold base in metal for instance), to your third base, etc. It's not only about comparing units cost-by-cost. It's an extremely cheap price to pay if building 3 crawlers shuts their attack down.
I'm not sure if it does, though, and if it doesn't, then this is all irrelevant.
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On November 19 2010 13:55 Artosis wrote:
just to clear up a few things:
the rush comes wayyyyyyyy before you have any tech. terran gets 0 gas. just scv/marine pumping.
if you make too many drones, they will move out faster. if you make lots of lings, they will wait a bit longer.
right now i like baneling nest right after lair starts, with constant attempts at scouting. idra mentioned that he thinks you might need baneling nest before lair starts.
if i hit another terran ill post the rep, but this time of the day its only zergs on asia for whatever reason.
Help me out here Artosis, but the scan for this push comes earlier then a "typical" scan timing does it not? Shouldn't that be an indicator of the early aggression? Even so, overlords should scout the amassing marines and you should be able to notice the missing buildings in his main.
I do not mean the following to be insulting, it's just my opinion.
This whole "he delays the push or just expands" excuse is bullshit for the record, it just sounds like you're closing your mind. The same could be said from his perspective:
"if I attack right now he'll just make a couple spine crawlers / roaches / banelings and the push will fail and then I'm way behind"
You're better then that.
Now, I do acknowledge the potency of this push and the difficulty of scouting and defending it but all in all it's not "unscoutable" just "new"
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EPT
