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On November 20 2010 11:10 fantomex wrote:
I can't be the only one that notices that Artosis does this every 2-3 weeks. "Amazing new build popping up on Asian servers!!! Can't be scouted!!!" Replays never surface.
Last time he said there was a 2 rax before depot build, and blizzard added the depot before rax requirement very soon after, suggesting what he was saying was legit.
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On November 20 2010 11:18 Shakes wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2010 11:10 fantomex wrote:
I can't be the only one that notices that Artosis does this every 2-3 weeks. "Amazing new build popping up on Asian servers!!! Can't be scouted!!!" Replays never surface. Last time he said there was a 2 rax before depot build, and blizzard added the depot before rax requirement very soon after, suggesting what he was saying was legit.
Actually, iirc that update was because early Reapers were so unbelievably successful without much counter from any race...
Blizzard doesn't change things because Artosis says so.
Christ, once someone gains popularity people think everything they say is true and good.
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On November 20 2010 09:21 Durp wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2010 08:41 Dente wrote:On November 20 2010 08:36 Losticus wrote:
I see Zergs are back to whining about Terran again. You guys have convinced Blizzard to nerf every other T unit, so why not the marine?
Because after all, any tactics that prevent a Zerg from nonstop droning should not be possible. He is actually right. What's next? The raven again (seeker misile was nerfed by zergwhine, now it's useless)? Or maybe this time the ghost? If I 14 CC then I die too mass speedlings. If you do 14 hatch you die to mass marines. What's the problem here? Yes, but you don't build BOTH drones and units from your command centres.
May I propose a solution?
Pool first, get an Queen, inject larva, enjoy 6 extra larva/minute.
And, that doesnt mean, you cant expo shortly afterwards...
If an Terran gets an Expo that early against Zerg he will have 6 pescy lings and a stream of them following at his ass...
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Actually, iirc that update was because early Reapers were so unbelievably successful without much counter from any race...
Blizzard doesn't change things because Artosis says so.
Christ, once someone gains popularity people think everything they say is true and good.
Read his post again... he didn't say that Blizzard changed just cus he said it or that he was "popular". He simply said that Artosis mentioned it, and that Blizzard patched shortly afterward. You're making the wrong connection here; you're simply supposed to infer that there was indeed a really strong build and that Blizzard also noticed it.
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Watch Foxer vs. Fruitdealer Games 2 and 3 from GSTAR SC2 All-Stars when VODs are up, I think was Foxer did was similar to what Artosis is talking about.
Edit; nvm ignore this completely lol
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On November 20 2010 12:23 karlmengsk wrote:
Watch Foxer vs. Fruitdealer Games 2 and 3 from GSTAR SC2 All-Stars when VODs are up, I think was Foxer did was similar to what Artosis is talking about.
not at all. Foxer went for a fairly early cc, and in fact the closest parallel I've seen to his play was jinro vs ret on blistering sands from mlg dallas.
I believe foxer opened up 2 rax no gas which is becoming fairly typical in the matchup nowadays.
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about the terran can denie scouting people. I can't throw down a 6 raks with a unit faster then the enemy workers  or have flying depots D: .
This build kinda gave scv their health debuff.
when 2 marines are out scouting is over, but he would save up to many mins if he delays the 2nd barracks that long (and could build a 3rd hehe), so if nothing is happening when your drone dies, he will either instantly take double gas, or well all the stuff you do once the scv is down.
Another option is taking the gas, to soften banshee play. Would give you vision if they take their workers, really early.
Anyway, you could throw down a hatch at your ramp to have creep there, to have some more larva, get a queen and a spine, but save up some energie for heal first, you can position the spine really evil for enemy marines (and i think a spine is more worth then 6 lings at the ramp ^^). Remember you can push drones through ramp blocks then press stop and bust it or surround from behind x3. speedlings are not really needed when you have creep, if you are feared of banshees, to get a faster overseer.
The problem is the reason why terran ccs are the most expensiv ingame (Worker needs to build it !). though he can build it where you would have to waste an overlord to see what he is doing. So you would be in a hurry, (or you make an overseer at his base hope for your luck and run in an changeling while retreating the overseer to your base)
hatch allows you to still throw out drones like crap, and when you feel save you could go for the expansion pretty fast. (played that way when i was close posi to a terran and he wasn't taking both gas, when sc2 came out)
About the fast baneling nest i dislike them, but its doable, since spore crawlers are pretty cheap and save gas. (if you know that you want to get upgrades for ground ^^).
terran early mind games are funny as always, never had problems to play those with the other races as well. If you go save, you won't die to a push but will be behind etc.
Well with the hatch at the ramp, you can build "hidden tech" there since he want to see your drone count with the scan and your larva. (the tech building will be easy snipable though from below the cliff) Hiding some forces would also be an idea, but since most zergs want to only build drones ^^.
These hidden addition racks are stolen from toss though ^^.
Well can make it short, terran pushing zerg into this save play again, he had when mass reapers still worked, so he can get the eco advantage. Just like at the time everyone was scared about baneling rush, bolstering everything with hp at the ramp, so the zerg could scout the whole tech with an overlord. Or like toss is doing atm walling in with a cybercore (against runbylings), so the zerg can easily snipe it later on. from below the cliff.
(best thing that ever happened when you play random and get terran against a toss, core at the ramp = free win)
Zergs will get used to it again in ladder and pro gamers will concentrate more on the spendings of the enemy and either gamble or sacrifice a bit for scouting info, to not be behind in eco. (or they will build spines like every zerg in bw did build creep colonies and made them into sunkens once the terran pushed, well when mech play came back they build one sunken completly anyway, and spines can be moved later to save your tech from drops)
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On November 20 2010 11:23 Havefa1th wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2010 11:18 Shakes wrote:On November 20 2010 11:10 fantomex wrote:
I can't be the only one that notices that Artosis does this every 2-3 weeks. "Amazing new build popping up on Asian servers!!! Can't be scouted!!!" Replays never surface. Last time he said there was a 2 rax before depot build, and blizzard added the depot before rax requirement very soon after, suggesting what he was saying was legit. Actually, iirc that update was because early Reapers were so unbelievably successful without much counter from any race... Blizzard doesn't change things because Artosis says so. Christ, once someone gains popularity people think everything they say is true and good.
I wasn;t saying they changed it because Artosis said so, I'm saying that the last time he said there was a very strong build he wasn't just talking out of his ass like some people seem to be implying.
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On November 20 2010 10:59 CptJustin wrote:
There's a replay of ret vs a random on youtube, where he loses to this intense racks pressure. He opens roaches and does pretty well against it. I'm on my phome so I can't post a link, but it's on EonShiKeno's page. Might this be the build? It's on Korea...
If that's the build then it's nothing special. Ret misplayed that game by losing his Roaches at the Terran base.
I'd really like to see some replays of this phantom qq build. I mean, c'mon...
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On November 20 2010 11:23 Havefa1th wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2010 11:18 Shakes wrote:On November 20 2010 11:10 fantomex wrote:
I can't be the only one that notices that Artosis does this every 2-3 weeks. "Amazing new build popping up on Asian servers!!! Can't be scouted!!!" Replays never surface. Last time he said there was a 2 rax before depot build, and blizzard added the depot before rax requirement very soon after, suggesting what he was saying was legit. Actually, iirc that update was because early Reapers were so unbelievably successful without much counter from any race... Blizzard doesn't change things because Artosis says so. Christ, once someone gains popularity people think everything they say is true and good.
Yes, once people build a reputation from hard work and devotion and exhibiting high-level gameplay, they tend to...have a good reputation (shocking, I know). Artosis is obviously a proven player and has released replay packs showing his gameplay in the past. Obviously, one shouldn't take everything he says as fact, but what he says is worth at least considering, which is the point of this thread.
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On November 20 2010 13:52 out4blood wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2010 10:59 CptJustin wrote:
There's a replay of ret vs a random on youtube, where he loses to this intense racks pressure. He opens roaches and does pretty well against it. I'm on my phome so I can't post a link, but it's on EonShiKeno's page. Might this be the build? It's on Korea... If that's the build then it's nothing special. Ret misplayed that game by losing his Roaches at the Terran base. I'd really like to see some replays of this phantom qq build. I mean, c'mon...
Are you guys talking about the Steppes of War game where he went 8pool and didn't really do much damage to the Terran then gets rolled shortly after taking his nat?
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the thing you guys missreaded is... he never said "unbeteable" he said UNSCOUTABLE... thats why it is good... since you cant see it coming you cant just go "oh hes going for the 2 rax push i better go for my fast banelings" and stuff like that... since if you do that blindly you will pretty much get owned hardcore by anyone who doesnt just go for bio.
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On November 19 2010 14:25 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2010 13:58 danson wrote:On November 19 2010 13:54 Shikyo wrote:
How are you behind after 2-3 spine crawlers? He's not exactly 1rax CCing and even that doesn't really get ahead of the Z. Pool-first doesn't really give you worse econ than hatch-first because of faster Queen. After the 2-3 or w/e spines you can tech really freely and make only drones for a long time, spine crawlers are extremely light on the larvae so you have many more for the drones than if you made speedlings. He also is going to spend a mule to scan you, so you really shouldn't be behind alot if at all. 3 spine crawlers = 300min + 150m to remake drones + no mining time on drones while remaking (~75) costs you over 500min in minerals and mineral potential, while the only thing is cost terran is MAYBE 280min + a look at your tech. your spines, rather useless from now on... his marines, still useful You don't remake anything. Imagine you make 6 Zerglings, that's 3 larvae, okay? Now imagine those are 3 drones instead. They never mined, they never were going to mine. They were intended to be combat units from the beginning, you lose no mining time at all. You lose 3 larvae and 450 minerals. You can't look at it so black-and-white, just the scan by the Terran costs over half of that cost and the fact you can safely drone for a while makes it more than worth it. Seriously pisses me off when people consider spine crawlers to cost mining time. What the spines do is let you drone up, which lets you go ahead in economy. Also they are useful, they can be moved to chokepoints, strategic locations(on the side of the gold base in metal for instance), to your third base, etc. It's not only about comparing units cost-by-cost. It's an extremely cheap price to pay if building 3 crawlers shuts their attack down. I'm not sure if it does, though, and if it doesn't, then this is all irrelevant.
Curious about this as well. Wouldn't spending 450 minerals allow you to drone up safely and hold off the attack when it comes? If the Terran does scan and see that you have 3 crawlers, let's assume he retreats. He's already fairly behind on tech, no gas, no expo and you've been droning all this time. What's wrong with spinecrawlers again?
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On November 20 2010 14:36 SnowFantasy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2010 13:52 out4blood wrote:On November 20 2010 10:59 CptJustin wrote:
There's a replay of ret vs a random on youtube, where he loses to this intense racks pressure. He opens roaches and does pretty well against it. I'm on my phome so I can't post a link, but it's on EonShiKeno's page. Might this be the build? It's on Korea... If that's the build then it's nothing special. Ret misplayed that game by losing his Roaches at the Terran base. I'd really like to see some replays of this phantom qq build. I mean, c'mon... Are you guys talking about the Steppes of War game where he went 8pool and didn't really do much damage to the Terran then gets rolled shortly after taking his nat?
That's the one. I definitely think ret misplayed, but so did the terran by getting the refinery. Anyways, not sure this is even really what Artosis was talking about, just thought it loosely matched the description.
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I don't see what the problem is, we can't proxy 2 racks anymore without first building a supply depot so this timing push comes way later than any other early pressure. This is just what happens when all the Zergs get cocky and greedy thinking their safe and Terrans finally have a way to punish this Zerg style. Nothing is "broken" and nothing should be "fixed" so please stop acting like this is some OP issue because if it is then 4 gate is OP and 5 RR is OP and 14 hatch is OP and Baneling busts are OP and 3 racks timing is OP. Get it?
On November 20 2010 08:47 zhurai wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2010 08:41 Dente wrote:On November 20 2010 08:36 Losticus wrote:
I see Zergs are back to whining about Terran again. You guys have convinced Blizzard to nerf every other T unit, so why not the marine?
Because after all, any tactics that prevent a Zerg from nonstop droning should not be possible. He is actually right. What's next? The raven again (seeker misile was nerfed by zergwhine, now it's useless)? Or maybe this time the ghost? If I 14 CC then I die too mass speedlings. If you do 14 hatch you die to mass marines. What's the problem here? (psst... it's confirmed that even if you don't FE at 14 hatch you'll still die to it.)
(psssst.... it's confirmed that even if you 1 rax FE you die to roach pressure or mass ling.)
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Artosis' replies if you missed it. Please read before you type anything. (Can this go in the first post?) Would stop some people posting the wrong things.
+ Show Spoiler +stop please. completely not what im reffering to. i never go hatch first, its a gamble build.
first off, i never said "Unbeatable". It is beatable, but it is extremely hard to scout correctly. marines catch drones very fast, and a handful of marines at the front make it very hard to see if this is infact what he is doing.
there is a new build on the asian server which is basically a marine / scv timing rush. they often times use a scan to see exactly what you have 1 time and adjust the attack timing to fit it. its far better than the rushes foxer was doing to nestea.
roaches probably would stop it, but if they use that scan i was talking about, they simply expand and your economy is quite bad with a handful of roaches. its quite a hard build to play vs right now on the asian server, and getting very popular.
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ok time to teach some stuff to some folks:
"Make 3 spine crawlers" is a terrrrrrrrrrrrrrrible idea. if that's the answer, terran sees it, and then simply expands with a great economy, while yours is garbage with 3 useless spine crawlers (300 minerals + 150 minerals for drones, + 3 drones no longer mining, all of this after a pool-first (and normally speed-first as well...) build)
that = ridiculously far behind at the top levels.
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just to clear up a few things:
the rush comes wayyyyyyyy before you have any tech. terran gets 0 gas. just scv/marine pumping.
if you make too many drones, they will move out faster. if you make lots of lings, they will wait a bit longer.
right now i like baneling nest right after lair starts, with constant attempts at scouting. idra mentioned that he thinks you might need baneling nest before lair starts.
if i hit another terran ill post the rep, but this time of the day its only zergs on asia for whatever reason.
Can't comment until we get more information.
@ckw, he's saying it's unbeatable unless you scout it (but it's unscoutable atm), or if you go blind into tech. Different from what you're talking about.
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This sounds pretty scary. I have had a lot of trouble dealing with marines, there just seems to be no answer to them unless you can go infestor - and you're behind for a long time until that infestor comes out. If the T is more than vigilant with his scouting, he'll attack when the infestors hatch and are still useless and all the money you spent on them is effectively wasted. Then banelings don't work, speedlings don't work, roaches usually aren't enough, and hydra/muta gets annihilated.
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So they come up with a build designed to put on pressure(pretty much a prerequisite for any good build versus zerg). Then they scout you and if you're blind countering it they adjust to something more effective based on your defense? What exactly is the problem here? Isn't that pretty much competitive Starcraft in a nutshell?
Does not compute.
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On November 19 2010 13:25 Artosis wrote:
roaches probably would stop it, but if they use that scan i was talking about, they simply expand and your economy is quite bad with a handful of roaches. its quite a hard build to play vs right now on the asian server, and getting very popular.
If they scan you with early roaches and are deciding to expand after seeing that, then maybe just going all-in into a ling roach all-in reinforcing with speedlings might be the best way to combat that. Fight aggresion with more aggresion kyrix-style! Of course, they might not actually expand so it is definitely a gamble (what all-in isn't?), but at the same time they are also wasting a mule on a scan, so in theory it might work? There's probably something I'm overlooking here.
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Did folks only just now realize that 2 Rax openings aren't all-in?
But I don't understand why this is 'unscoutable'. Unless your drone is walled-out, you know the Terran isn't taking gas, and if he's cutting for faster barracks, there should be a detectable reduced SCV count (particularly with one SCV proxying a barracks) that would not be the case for an FE build. (An FE build would want to maximize its worker count.) No gas + reduced worker count --> early, low-tech aggression 100% of the time.
Though I confess I've never bothered hiding a 2 rax build since nobody would ever suspect 1 rax CC in 2v2.
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EPT
