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On November 20 2010 07:48 my0s wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2010 07:22 natewOw wrote:On November 20 2010 06:55 zhurai wrote:On November 20 2010 06:41 GosuSheep wrote:
I believe there is some truth to this statement. I support the claim that many claim something is unbeatable and is obviously overpowered if they haven't yet found a way to beat it. I believe Idra and Artosis are no exception to this. I imagine it is true that this strategy is difficult to deal with, but that we need more time to determine whether or not it is as scary as some believe it is.
For the record, we should fight aliens with zerglings. psssst he said UNSCOUTABLE. NOT "unbeatable" If the only way to beat a strategy is to scout it, but it is impossible to scout, then it is also unbeatable. It's simple logic, you see these all the time on IQ tests: 1) Strategy A is unscoutable; 2) Strategy A is unstoppable if it is not scouted; 3) Given 1 and 2, strategy A is unstoppable. This is more less untrue. In sandbox logic like that maybe, but this game isnt that simple. One example being, It may be possible to setup your opening to be safe(or safe-ish) vs this push blindly if you think there is a good possibility it will come. The question then becomes to determine how bad you have to gimp your economy to be able to hold off the attack, in relation to the economy of Terran when doing a opening where this is possible. All in all im sure this will get dissected and a stable build for zerg vs this will come about soon. If this was anything but a Zerg problem I would be worried by Artosis post. But knowing him, he gets...."passionate" about his race...
technically it COULD work against terran and protoss too, but obviously we can't say if it does or not until artosis or someone from korea plays against it and such...
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I'm guessing we already saw a preview of this from MarineKing/Rainbow and their 5-rax marine only builds in the G-Star tournament. (supply, rax, rax, OC, rax, rax, rax - pull SCVs for attacks, mine with MULEs)
GSL3 starts in a few days and I bet Artosis will bring it up in one of the numerous TvZs we'll see. He already mentioned something about how fast expanding is dangerous (again) compared to before the patch because Ts now have a stronger economy when they do their pushes
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I see Zergs are back to whining about Terran again. You guys have convinced Blizzard to nerf every other T unit, so why not the marine?
Because after all, any tactics that prevent a Zerg from nonstop droning should not be possible.
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On November 20 2010 08:36 Losticus wrote:
I see Zergs are back to whining about Terran again. You guys have convinced Blizzard to nerf every other T unit, so why not the marine?
Because after all, any tactics that prevent a Zerg from nonstop droning should not be possible.
He is actually right. What's next? The raven again (seeker misile was nerfed by zergwhine, now it's useless)? Or maybe this time the ghost?
If I 14 CC then I die too mass speedlings. If you do 14 hatch you die to mass marines. What's the problem here?
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On November 20 2010 08:41 Dente wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2010 08:36 Losticus wrote:
I see Zergs are back to whining about Terran again. You guys have convinced Blizzard to nerf every other T unit, so why not the marine?
Because after all, any tactics that prevent a Zerg from nonstop droning should not be possible. He is actually right. What's next? The raven again (seeker misile was nerfed by zergwhine, now it's useless)? Or maybe this time the ghost? If I 14 CC then I die too mass speedlings. If you do 14 hatch you die to mass marines. What's the problem here?
(psst... it's confirmed that even if you don't FE at 14 hatch you'll still die to it.)
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On November 20 2010 08:47 zhurai wrote:
(psst... it's confirmed that even if you don't FE at 14 hatch you'll still die to it.)
Did you know that a 5RR is impossible to stop without a bunker or without 3 raxes?
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I think what many of you posting in this thread need to remember is that Artosis is one of the top Zergs in StarCraft 2 right now; sure, he hasn't qualified for GSL since season one, but he practises a ton, way more than all of you, and on a harder server.
He is also notoriously biased, and like most Zergs, whine imba if they can't thwart an attack after 20 minutes of droning.
The audacity of Zergs to make any sort of critical comment on balance, given the state of the game today, is astonishing. You guys ever wonder WHY a build like this would be so common/necessary for Terrans?
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On November 20 2010 08:49 Dente wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2010 08:47 zhurai wrote:
(psst... it's confirmed that even if you don't FE at 14 hatch you'll still die to it.) Nestea vs foxer. Slayersboxer vs nestea. Please watch those games. You die to it if you DRONE in stead of making units.
he's not talking about that build.
please read what he SAYS before you comment on it, or don't comment on it at all? o_O
and if you say "but it is!", but you don't know the build order of it either (since artosis/another guy in korea) hasn't confirmed it. (as well as just because nobody confirmed it yet in korea, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.)
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Funny that this build is "so popular" on the asian server. Still no replays.
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he made the twitter post at like 1 am korea time, it's just now morning there. We won't hear anything about this until the wee hours of the morning no matter what.
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On November 19 2010 14:38 zhurai wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2010 14:37 SubPointOA wrote:
as stated in TL rules, dont call something unbeatable. psst, learn to read what artosis really said Show nested quote +first off, i never said "Unbeatable". It is beatable, but it is extremely hard to scout correctly. marines catch drones very fast, and a handful of marines at the front make it very hard to see if this is infact what he is doing.
zzzz Artosis = TL?
Also keep in mind:
- Nothing is imba. If you found something imba [unbeatable implies imba], it's most likely not. Find a counter.
- This is no place for balance discussion.
- B.net league placements aren't that relevant. Your Platinum spot doesn't mean anything.
I want an apology
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On November 20 2010 05:54 natewOw wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2010 05:28 timbo wrote:On November 20 2010 05:19 Jermstuddog wrote:
The title of the thread is really mis-informative though...
Its unscoutable, not unbeatable. And even thats not true. No gas for terran is alarm bells ringing for zerg. This is a ridiculous thread discussing a strategy that we dont even know the build order / details of. This should be locked. So your solution to getting the details of the build and then assessing its stopability is to....lock the thread that is discussing it? Stop posting please.
You are the one who should stop posting if you don't see the futility of discussing a vague strategy comprised of sweeping statements and no details. Until Artosis posts replays of the build order this thread is pointless.
But anyway not suprising this stupidity comes from someone who thinks stopability is a word.
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On November 20 2010 08:41 Dente wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2010 08:36 Losticus wrote:
I see Zergs are back to whining about Terran again. You guys have convinced Blizzard to nerf every other T unit, so why not the marine?
Because after all, any tactics that prevent a Zerg from nonstop droning should not be possible. He is actually right. What's next? The raven again (seeker misile was nerfed by zergwhine, now it's useless)? Or maybe this time the ghost? If I 14 CC then I die too mass speedlings. If you do 14 hatch you die to mass marines. What's the problem here?
Yes, but you don't build BOTH drones and units from your command centres.
This thread is depressing. The OP misunderstands Artosis who then takes the time to explain what he was actually saying- AND says he would post a replay if he came across it again on ladder- yet the thread is full of anti-Artosis/zerg flame? Get over yourselves. Whether or not Artosis has some bias in his commentaries/analysis- his understanding of the game is far greater than any of you flaming him for being biased, and while you shouldn't take everything that leaves his mouth as gospel, to brush off the OPs misinterpretation as "Oh it's Artosis q.q'ing about imba" is ridiculous.
If anything, the zergs out there should be thanking him they're hearing about it here before losing 4-5 ladder games in a row to it- and the Terrans should be happy that they'll probably get a few free wins before this pops up in the GSL and everyone knows how to play/counter it.
As a Protoss player... fuck. Why can't someone come up a with a decent anti-zerg strat for us soon?
ARTOSIS- thank you for your help, any updates on this build are appreciated.
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there are some crazy people in this topic.
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Has anyone considered that if it wasn't Artosis saying this, no one would care? Just because he casts SC2 games and plays in Korea doesn't mean he gets to do things different. His description of this super build is extraordinarily vague and he provides no replays. If anyone else did this, he'd be ridiculed off the forum and the thread would be closed, regardless about his so called "superior understanding of the game."
Therefore, no one should be crying for a nerf to anything. I kinda agree that this thread should be closed... it's misleading and after searching 9 pages I haven't seen one relevant high level replay yet to support any freaking out about the mechanics of the game. This thread has just been turned into a clusterfuck because some internet celebrity tweeted about it, and that's sad.
Get a replay, get a build order and get a thread title that doesn't cause an outrage amongst every Zerg player that can read.
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I can't believe this could beat a Roach build.
If you ONLY make barracks, supply depots and marines, you can have at most 8 marines out by 5 minutes, and if you're factoring in travel time to ATTACK, you're looking at about 5 marines by 4 minutes.
The current 7RR build v protoss would easily rip this apart, as 2 lings + queen will take out the 4 marines with minimal help, and the roaches that pop will likely win outright if there isn't a bunker put down immediately.
Further, not seeing replays or specific build orders, I'm tempted to call BS.
Artosis might think there's a perfect counter to the absolutely standard (NOW) opener for zerg, and he's probably right. All that's going to happen is that the absolutely standard zerg opener will change slightly to account for this timing window.
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On November 20 2010 08:50 Losticus wrote:Show nested quote +I think what many of you posting in this thread need to remember is that Artosis is one of the top Zergs in StarCraft 2 right now; sure, he hasn't qualified for GSL since season one, but he practises a ton, way more than all of you, and on a harder server. The audacity of Zergs to make any sort of critical comment on balance, given the state of the game today, is astonishing.
lol
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=164129
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There's a replay of ret vs a random on youtube, where he loses to this intense racks pressure. He opens roaches and does pretty well against it. I'm on my phome so I can't post a link, but it's on EonShiKeno's page. Might this be the build? It's on Korea...
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I can't be the only one that notices that Artosis does this every 2-3 weeks. "Amazing new build popping up on Asian servers!!! Can't be scouted!!!" Replays never surface.
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EPT
