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On November 19 2010 18:44 BurningSera wrote:remind me of my silver day which got the mass marines terran all the time=_= the solution is rather simple(the opponents are pretty average players obviously) - just always cautious they do this strat and run a ling to the ramp to see if there are >5marines and he is still making them, pumping lings nonstop(maybe bling if he is slow), hide them to unusual spot(avoid they scan), surround and kill ->bling bust depot speedling run by = gg. However, i ve always supposed that this strat will work pretty well if executed correctly at high level (eg bringing a tank with them or earlier timing attack). i hate foxer for a passion because of my own experience  edit: holy sh!T, i just watched this and i am speechless if every tvz will be like this in gsl3 lol http://www.sc2rep.com/replays/show/id/2963
Lol, this is nothing like the build Artosis described.
HT indeed goes for a 2 rax before orbital build without gas, but then builds 3 proxy raxes -_-'
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this will be cool until zergs rush spine crawler after pool and creep first queen.
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On November 19 2010 15:30 cHaNg-sTa wrote:
Incoming marine build time nerf.
"to adress the problem of terrans being able to dump minerals too quickly with the combination of barracks and reactors" 
Sorry for the troll, I'm actually a random!
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On November 19 2010 19:03 bokeevboke wrote:
MadFrog put one more hatch in his base after he saw double rax of BratOK, and won easily. The key is that terran sacs eco/tech for early pressure but once zerg has double hatch T can't do shit. Zerg's economy booms after they plant an exp.
Madfrog prob. just does that, because his macro is pretty bad.
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On November 19 2010 20:37 Holy.BR wrote:
this will be cool until zergs rush spine crawler after pool and creep first queen.
This build is extremely terrible for econ though which Z is already behind on in the beginning of the game.
Why not just stop at 14 drones and pump lings non-stop while you're at it?
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On November 19 2010 20:37 Holy.BR wrote:
this will be cool until zergs rush spine crawler after pool and creep first queen.
LOL
If that became standard due to this build then zerg would be terrible.
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why is a spine crawler bad for econ again? It saves larva,
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best way to look at it is 150 minerals wasted for offense.
Holy also mentions going pool first so that your queen can put down some creep instantly.
If you go pool first, you NEED to spend that first 25 energy on larva or you're SUPER behind on econ.
These two things combined are basically all-in for the Z player and he still has 0 offense.
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Seems to me that Roaches and Queen spam would easily stop any kind of marine shananigans. Using the first scan seems like a horrible idea from a Terran PoV, talk about raping your own economy.
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On November 19 2010 13:25 Artosis wrote:
stop please. completely not what im reffering to. i never go hatch first, its a gamble build.
So finaly we have it officialy: Zerg was "economicaly cheesing" us the past weeks! 
Artosis, thank you man, thank you for your coverage of the qualifiers and for bringing the trends from the land of the Gods to us. You 're my handsome nerd!
On November 19 2010 13:38 AndAgain wrote:
So we got that to look forward to in the GSL... This is cranking out to be a pretty lame GSL.
Just because games arent played the way one likes, it doesnt mean they are lame. As long as the Terran attack is not broken and can be faced with a somehow generic build (and timed scouting, maybe with SCV counting), this is just another step in the evolution.
Coming from chess I know it's history, and I can tell you: chess in the 15th century was all cheese, from a modern point of view! What I want to say is: SC2 is evolving!
On November 19 2010 14:40 unkkz wrote:Surprise yet another unscoutable all-in early game push for terrans I dont know why but its always terrans that come up with these, how would blizzard have to tweak the race to prevent things like this?
Yeah, Blizzard should do this, and while they are on it, they should "fix" also the ability of Zerg and Protoss (in a lesser degree) to produce everything out of one Building, so we can predict what the are planing to compose their army off... You like my idea?
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Compared to sc1 the game designers made zerglings weaker by altering the rate of fire for the units relative to each other. Nowadays, one zergling no longer beats one marine straight up. I always thought this was a good thing for tvz so i liked the new setup. I also thought pvz had more problems early game than tvz because protoss units have 1 armor and stalkers are way too fast. So i am curious about this new development as well.
If this indeed turns out to be an imbalanced build it would be very hard to fix it by nerfing terran/buffing zerg as terran is a bit weak in macro games already. And you must also consider the protoss side of things when balancing the game.
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On November 19 2010 23:41 50bani wrote:
Compared to sc1 the game designers made zerglings weaker by altering the rate of fire for the units relative to each other. Nowadays, one zergling no longer beats one marine straight up. I always thought this was a good thing for tvz so i liked the new setup. I also thought pvz had more problems early game than tvz because protoss units have 1 armor and stalkers are way too fast. So i am curious about this new development as well.
If this indeed turns out to be an imbalanced build it would be very hard to fix it by nerfing terran/buffing zerg as terran is a bit weak in macro games already. And you must also consider the protoss side of things when balancing the game.
Accurate assessment on where the issue stems from, but very wrong on the nerf logic.
Nerfing the marine would take care of the OP early game from terran (this is exactly what needs fixing in TvP as well). The problem with terran is finding a way to buff them lategame without making them unstoppable.
Terrans specifically have to be balanced on the razors edge due to their main feature being range. If units are too strong, there is no way to counter them. If they're too weak, they're unplayable.
In the case of the marine, something as simple as a 0.1 increase to their attack cooldown may sound reasonable on paper, but could cause the race as a whole to fall apart.
At any rate, I hope Blizzard decides soon. I'm so tired of OP marine play. Its not fun even when I win against it.
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On November 19 2010 20:51 MilesTeg wrote:"to adress the problem of terrans being able to dump minerals too quickly with the combination of barracks and reactors" Sorry for the troll, I'm actually a random!
Well, I've just heard from a source that was a nerf coming
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I've actually been hit by this several times on the NA servers, and I can confirm that it is rough. I haven't beat it yet, but I'm not about to call it "unbeatable." I'd say that I just haven't quite figured out how to stop it yet without MAJOR economic sacrifices.
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I am fairly certain if you are playing on the NA server you have not run into it. If you think you have feel free to post a replay. But so far everything linked is not what artosis is talking about.
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On November 20 2010 03:01 kweer wrote:
I've actually been hit by this several times on the NA servers, and I can confirm that it is rough. I haven't beat it yet, but I'm not about to call it "unbeatable." I'd say that I just haven't quite figured out how to stop it yet without MAJOR economic sacrifices.
From the sound of it, the Terran is making MAJOR economic sacrifices. The problem is, the sacrifice is always paying off because the strategy is virtually undetectable until it's too late.
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On November 20 2010 01:39 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2010 23:41 50bani wrote:
Compared to sc1 the game designers made zerglings weaker by altering the rate of fire for the units relative to each other. Nowadays, one zergling no longer beats one marine straight up. I always thought this was a good thing for tvz so i liked the new setup. I also thought pvz had more problems early game than tvz because protoss units have 1 armor and stalkers are way too fast. So i am curious about this new development as well.
If this indeed turns out to be an imbalanced build it would be very hard to fix it by nerfing terran/buffing zerg as terran is a bit weak in macro games already. And you must also consider the protoss side of things when balancing the game. Accurate assessment on where the issue stems from, but very wrong on the nerf logic. Nerfing the marine would take care of the OP early game from terran (this is exactly what needs fixing in TvP as well). The problem with terran is finding a way to buff them lategame without making them unstoppable. Terrans specifically have to be balanced on the razors edge due to their main feature being range. If units are too strong, there is no way to counter them. If they're too weak, they're unplayable. In the case of the marine, something as simple as a 0.1 increase to their attack cooldown may sound reasonable on paper, but could cause the race as a whole to fall apart. At any rate, I hope Blizzard decides soon. I'm so tired of OP marine play. Its not fun even when I win against it.
Accurate assessment indeed. Yes I am just a lowly silver slug, not worth the time it takes to be scraped from the boots of the elite diamonds , but it seems that Terran has been forced into these early pushes vs zerg. If Terran cant get fast early pressure on Zerg, it soon becomes harder and harder to push out due to Muta harass.
I'm sure at higher levels of play, it becomes a bit easier, but the general consensus is the same. Pressure Zerg and you have a chance. Let Zerg Macro up...good luck
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I dont understand ;S i just hope we get a build order or something.
12 rax 14 rax? i dont even see how this is remotely effective against a prepared 15 hatch.
as in, if you are prepared for it and are 15 hatching you might deflect the initial push and then the terran is behind right?
you should still be able to 15 hatch on certain positioons right?
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I've been watching destiny's stream, and I've seen him get hit pretty hard by this build or a slight variation of it in the last few days.
Just yesterday he seemed to have gotten the timings down, and completely raped the terrans that tried it against him.....and he even went FE. What he seemed to do was not drone up his FE until the the push either happens or its obvious that the T isn't doing that build.
He did build an extra queen, or even two extra queens just to be sure against banshee rushes, but also to get the max larvae out of the FE and drop creep. He has an OL scout near his opponents base, and as soon as he sees the push, he drops a spine or two near his FE, and tries to set his lings up to flank and keep the marines from just stutter stepping him.
When the marines get there, he tanks up front with his queens and spines, lings prevent the retreat, and the rush ends in seconds. Then he already has a expansion, a baneling nest is either done or on the way.
From there you just drone up for a minute or so, then go hard ling/banes and bust the T who has no chance from there unless you majorly screw up. The hardest part seems to be the zergling/queen micro. If you screw up, you lose half your zerglings and queen and you're done.
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uh...what's all this of "14 hatch a gamble." You can easily defend this bs marine/scv stuff with 14 hatch and be ahead afterwards. T has no gas, just the scvs/marine mass attack -> defended -> you're ahead.
Even nestea said he defended it easily in practice, and he practiced vs it what, like 200 times he said b4 the finals? lol.
Even then, lowly zerg NA scrubs can defend it and equalize + come out ahead. Unless you're trying to tell us that korean marines and scvs build faster.
Also, scrap station a balanced map...right?
All these marine/scv attacks are semi-all ins, and they're prevalent because of the state of TvZ lategame - Terran can't win. So everyone, obviously most of the koreans, are doing the most aggressive builds possible that let them have a CHANCE of getting an advantage early game, because if TvZ goes past 10 minutes we all know who wins.
at least it's sorta funny to see the "ZErg is underpowered" propaganda machine is still in effect in a time where TvZ is unwinnable late game. Any comment? Or should we further distract unknowing forum goers to a gimmicky all-in FOTW TvZ build instead of discussing something more important like how late game zvt is a freewin? But THAT'S perfecly ok! right?
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EPT
