EPTJD on current state of ZvP - Page 3
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riotjune
United States3394 Posts
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Smorrie
Netherlands2925 Posts
On April 11 2024 06:20 TMNT wrote: Dude, it's not the same data set. One is the map win rate of all time and one is the players elo ranking of at a specific time. This is the 3rd time I have to repeat this. Can you read please? And yes, I called you ignorant in this thread first, but only after you quoted me with clear malintention. Although I have to say at this point I've proved with evidences that you are indeed ignorant. Last but not least, you clearly had a problem with me before and acted condescendingly and sarcastically first in this thread not long ago while I was simply making a normal conversation, then again here along with the 10-post-troll, which I still suspect is your clone. In both cases (in the general thread and this one) I was making just purely informative posts but got a hostile response out of nowhere. Another thing is, I would at least have some respect for you if you can logically, reasonably argue on the topic of BW (like explain why this stats or that stats are good or bad) , but you seem to just spend paragraphs making comments about me without evidences to back up. Like, when I say you're ignorant I have to demonstrate your lack of understanding about the eloboard data (obviously you have no clue about it and probably have never even visited the site nor knowing any Korean) . But you, I have to say your way of arguing is absolute dog shit. Your overuse of the words ignorant & ignorance make them lose their meaning. Try having some self-reflection. Just to remind you; 1. You’ve been very condescending since your first response, almost troll-like. 2. You accuse me of mental illness while dragging me into your petty feuds and obsessive struggles. 3. You complain about my post’s length but write twice as much yourself. You mentioned hypocrisy? Regarding the data set - if the data's flawed, the conclusions are built upon that same flawed data, no matter what statistic you derive from it. This is also what I’m criticizing; you selectively pick up some data, find some correlations with your opinions & then continue to present those as facts. Not providing a different data set apparently is enough for you to dismiss others as ignorant, even though you just seem upset with the criticism of your flawed methodology. I do have to admit that you definitely possess the talent to sour the mood of any room. Please keep me out of your own personal crusades and spare me your baseless insults. Out of respect for Jinjin's efforts I'll leave this thread. Appreciate the vid, always enjoying the translations :D Edit: Since I don't want to litter this thread any further I will add a final note here - Typing 'no' 4 times doesn't make it less true. Adding insults won't help either & repeatedly referring back to the same statements doesn't give them more credibility. Clinging on to straw man arguments and conspiracy theories are providing sufficient proof of your genuine lack of reading comprehension. Unfortunately this also leads to you endlessly trying to disprove this. I stated I was fine with the use of these statistics but called you out for your proven inconsistency and cherry picking of data & limited understanding of statistical methods. There is no resolve here & engaging with you is a tiresome chore. True weaponized autism. However I can leave this discussion seeing you can't progress any further from misinterpretation of my arguments & some bizarre fabrications of truths and conspiracies through different threads. This all lives in your head only, 'bro'. | ||
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TMNT
3116 Posts
On April 11 2024 09:40 Smorrie wrote: Your overuse of the words ignorant & ignorance make them lose their meaning. Try having some self-reflection. Just to remind you; 1. You’ve been very condescending since your first response, almost troll-like. 2. You accuse me of mental illness while dragging me into your petty feuds and obsessive struggles. 3. You complain about my post’s length but write twice as much yourself. You mentioned hypocrisy? I do have to admit that you definitely possess the talent to sour the mood of any room. Please keep me out of your own personal crusades and spare me your baseless insults. Out of respect for Jinjin's efforts I'll leave this thread. Appreciate the vid, always enjoying the translations :D No no no no, I went at length to talk about BW related matters, like in post #38. And anything not related to BW, which is much shorter btw, is to expose your rat face and explain why I'm having this sort of response. I didn't spend 4 paragraphs to talk about forum morality. The hypocrisy is that you spent that lengthy post just to talk about morality and how I was behaving like this and like that (all baseless, by the way), yet you came into this thread in the first place with a personal agenda to pick on me and without discussing anything related to the topic. Don't try to play victim. You started off with a dick move and now are all acting like you have moral highground. You know full well what you were trying to accomplish there and you deserve everything I threw at you after that. + Show Spoiler + Regarding the data set - if the data's flawed, the conclusions are built upon that same flawed data, no matter what statistic you derive from it. This is also what I’m criticizing; you selectively pick up some data, find some correlations with your opinions & then continue to present those as facts. Not providing a different data set apparently is enough for you to dismiss others as ignorant, even though you just seem upset with the criticism of your flawed methodology. For this bit, no the data is not flawed. Which one is flawed and which one that I "selectively" picked, can you point out precisely? In general when you want to discuss BW please write with evidences, examples, point by point, and in details, instead of this overgeneralisation and vague way of addressing the problem like what you've been doing all along. Like, if Polypoid has a ZvP win rate of 53% for Zerg over 10k games, and you think that stats is not correct or should be the other way around, you should present your argument and concrete evidences to back it up. That, instead of saying general stuff like "oh this data is flawed, your method is flawed, therefore you're wrong" lol. I mean look at my post there. Everything presented there is factual numbers. It's not like I have an opinion first then I post some numbers which are not directly related to that opinion to support it. Wtf are you talking about? You realize you're seemingly trying to refute map win rate which is everything and the only thing we have concerning map balance and what progamers and ASL organizers are using to adjust the game? And notice how you up to this point has dodged my response over your first stupid accusation (where you counted map win rate and individual elo ranking as the same thing lol). Come on, man up and admit you made a stupid comment. | ||
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TMNT
3116 Posts
On April 10 2024 23:07 Shinokuki wrote: Is there any way to see FS/RETRO/POLY stats for "recent" 1000 games? I feel zvp got harder since 2023. Also, my argument wasn't that it was always P favored but more like it started to tilt towards P recently while zvt being still way too hard for z pros. My concern is also more about the fact that there are two zergs in semi finals and that this may continue the trend of giving P good maps which will hurt Z. Hey. So to get back to this point, I pulled all the games ever played on Retro registered on eloboard. The map was created in Dec 2022 so there is no data pre 2023 obviously. Overall it's like this: PvT 890-847 (51.2%) TvZ 1099-813 (57.5%) ZvP 871-776 (52.9%) If you break it down over time by quarters (Q1 Q2 Q3 Q4 2023, then Q1 2024), it goes like this: PvT (%): 53.1 - 51.6 - 51.8 - 47.1 - 53.3 TvZ (%): 47.1- 62.0 - 57.2 - 57.8 - 61.1 ZvP (%): 55.9 - 52.9 - 47.9 - 53.5 - 56.6 So PvT looks just stable. TvZ it looks like Terran struggles at first and then they figure out the map and just roll? (this is a common conception about Terran and their adaptability to maps). Not sure the dip mid 2023 in ZvP is about though, but ZvP doesn't see a downward trend in win rates (all games - maybe it'll be different if we filter Proleague games only). | ||
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jinjin5000
United States1476 Posts
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands1115 Posts
On April 11 2024 17:18 TMNT wrote: Hey. So to get back to this point, I pulled all the games ever played on Retro registered on eloboard. The map was created in Dec 2022 so there is no data pre 2023 obviously. Overall it's like this: PvT 890-847 (51.2%) TvZ 1099-813 (57.5%) ZvP 871-776 (52.9%) If you break it down over time by quarters (Q1 Q2 Q3 Q4 2023, then Q1 2024), it goes like this: PvT (%): 53.1 - 51.6 - 51.8 - 47.1 - 53.3 TvZ (%): 47.1- 62.0 - 57.2 - 57.8 - 61.1 ZvP (%): 55.9 - 52.9 - 47.9 - 53.5 - 56.6 So PvT looks just stable. TvZ it looks like Terran struggles at first and then they figure out the map and just roll? (this is a common conception about Terran and their adaptability to maps). Not sure the dip mid 2023 in ZvP is about though, but ZvP doesn't see a downward trend in win rates (all games - maybe it'll be different if we filter Proleague games only). Is there a way to take only the top 6 players from each race, or the top 5, and use only those in the data? for example: soma, soulkey, hero, queen, jaedong. Light, Sharp, mind, RoyaL, JyJ Snow, Mini, Best, Bisu, Rain What are the stats with only these factored in? For example Rush on Retro: vsZ vsP vsT Total score ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/ZIu71FQ.png) Or Bisu: + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/GjHi6yc.png) ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/d7bgAXU.png) | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia13299 Posts
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands1115 Posts
+ Show Spoiler [Snow] + ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/nqzjlgq.png) ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/dirSJOS.png) ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/JuEYd9z.png) ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/KFc6Oqo.png) + Show Spoiler [Jaedong] + ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/1C0k3mz.png) ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/ii74b2a.png) + Show Spoiler [Soulkey] + ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/1gYtqBe.png) ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/I6u5r6f.png) ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/GsdRt39.png) + Show Spoiler [Soma] + ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/OgUCQde.png) ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/cN4WKLb.png) ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/5Kzflfb.png) | ||
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TMNT
3116 Posts
On April 11 2024 19:36 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote: Is there a way to take only the top 6 players from each race, or the top 5, and use only those in the data? for example: soma, soulkey, hero, queen, jaedong. Light, Sharp, mind, RoyaL, JyJ Snow, Mini, Best, Bisu, Rain What are the stats with only these factored in? For example Rush on Retro: vsZ vsP vsT Total score Or Bisu: + Show Spoiler + There's an advanced search function in eloboard that lets you filter almost anything you want. Maps, players, head to head, time period, Proleague or not. Once you make a search and pull the list of games down, you can do anything. It just takes time. I wish the guys who run eloboard put these functions into the site. | ||
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands1115 Posts
On April 11 2024 20:18 TMNT wrote: There's an advanced search function in eloboard that lets you filter almost anything you want. Maps, players, head to head, time period, Proleague or not. Once you make a search and pull the list of games down, you can do anything. It just takes time. I wish the guys who run eloboard put these functions into the site. link pls | ||
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TMNT
3116 Posts
I thought you knew this. It's been there forever, right next to the proleague tab: http://eloboard.com/men/bbs/board.php?bo_table=search_list Mind that you often have to refresh the page every time you start a new search. Otherwise even after you delete the content in one field, the search result will still take the content you just deleted into account. | ||
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TMNT
3116 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/HyEfnEP.png) Notable maps head to head: - Apocalypse: 7-16 - Neo Sylphid: 16-24 - Retro: 17-28 - Vermeer: 30-17 - Eclipse: 15-17 - Polypoid: 32-25 - NDO: 3-10 - 76: 0-7 (lol) To be honest, looking at this I kinda understand why the likes of Polypoid and Vermeer have to be the most popular maps. Without them to balance it out, Terran will be absolutely murdered on the other maps especially the 2p 3p ones. Maybe the idea is to have a few Terran favored maps which get played more, and more Protoss favored map which get played less, and they will even out. But that's from the PvT point of view. Could be absolutely wrong if we take the other 2 matchups into account though. One of the reasons why making a perfectly balanced maps for all 3 matchups are almost impossible. And begs the question why don't we have matchup specific maps? Really. No one will have to moan anymore. And we wont have to despise ZvZ. | ||
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RJBTV
194 Posts
On April 11 2024 20:37 TMNT wrote: I thought you knew this. It's been there forever, right next to the proleague tab: http://eloboard.com/men/bbs/board.php?bo_table=search_list Mind that you often have to refresh the page every time you start a new search. Otherwise even after you delete the content in one field, the search result will still take the content you just deleted into account. this page never gives me proper resulrs and always bugs out  might be browser related. might work on other browsers. ill try later. | ||
tofucake
Hyrule19193 Posts
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FlaShFTW
United States10310 Posts
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G5
United States2921 Posts
On April 12 2024 01:25 FlaShFTW wrote: I just like the fact that Zergs finally feel the pain. Huehuehue. I do agree with this. PvZ getting more balanced = Zergs freaking out? It's still Z favored but because it's harder to wreck P now, after 25 years of E Z P Z games, it is hilarious that Zerg complains at all. It's like Protoss' complaining that PvT is getting harder. It's like, get over yourselves roflmao. It's honestly a good thing. | ||
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LG)Sabbath
Argentina3024 Posts
I don't think it's so much about the maps, it's more or less what sziky was saying, there are small groups of players and the balance moves one way or the other for them depending on which individual players are doing well recently | ||
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Comedy
469 Posts
On April 12 2024 01:48 G5 wrote: I do agree with this. PvZ getting more balanced = Zergs freaking out? It's still Z favored but because it's harder to wreck P now, after 25 years of E Z P Z games, it is hilarious that Zerg complains at all. It's like Protoss' complaining that PvT is getting harder. It's like, get over yourselves roflmao. It's honestly a good thing. zvp against good protoss never really been easy. why you think dewalt and bonyth been dominating foreign scene so hard for 6 yrs? we had good zergs. sziky. eon. trutacz. they all got rekt by protoss. | ||
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Shinokuki
United States923 Posts
On April 12 2024 01:48 G5 wrote: I do agree with this. PvZ getting more balanced = Zergs freaking out? It's still Z favored but because it's harder to wreck P now, after 25 years of E Z P Z games, it is hilarious that Zerg complains at all. It's like Protoss' complaining that PvT is getting harder. It's like, get over yourselves roflmao. It's honestly a good thing. It's a good thing but you're missing the other side of the picture which is ZvT. Imagine your race is not even favored vs P now but still getting destroyed by terrans, leading to abysmal win rate. ZvP used to make up for ZvT but not so anymore. I also don't get why protoss at your level are so concerned with zvp balance before. Protoss was IMBA for many years. There's a reason why korean clans only recruited z/t due to how few z/t there were in comparison to P. That ZvP imbalance only existed at top level. You saw bonyth dewalt destroying for many years in modern era. | ||
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sas.Sziky
Hungary332 Posts
On April 12 2024 03:28 Comedy wrote: zvp against good protoss never really been easy. why you think dewalt and bonyth been dominating foreign scene so hard for 6 yrs? we had good zergs. sziky. eon. trutacz. they all got rekt by protoss. they doesn't really know what they talking about, just skip it :D | ||
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