JD on current state of ZvP

On April 10 2024 07:54 Shinokuki wrote:
Many foreigners would be so dumbfounded by this as they've always been stating ZVP is imba, but they don't know how bad zvp has been on major proleagues, non asl tourneys, and sponmatches. This all started when Sylphid got nerf'd and map makers kept giving buffs to protoss because of how well zergs have been doing on ASL. Unfortunately, ASL has such a small sample size of what ZvP landscape is like nowadays and it is rather frustrating that ASL Map pools are still dictating online events which are the major source of income for all progamers. ASL is just for prestige at this point.

I heard something interesting yesterday from hero and he basically stated that zerg has to cheese and do a lot of killer timing attack to be able to hold a decent win rate vs P. If Z does not do that and wants to go standard vs P, Z will be behind nowadays. But how to do these killer timing moves when map makers give insane simcity wall for protoss and close to no chokepoints for zergs?

On April 10 2024 09:53 TMNT wrote:

Oh come on. I'm running the Proleague thread myself. It's only recently. And compounded by Soma going to the military.

Yes Troy and Blitz are bad for ZvP but these maps will 100% not stay for next season. Meanwhile Retro and NDO which are slightly Zerg favored have been there for 3 seasons? This is like the first Protoss favored map pool since the Sparkle season (may explain the first time they have 4 players in Ro8 since) ? And Zerg, I mean Soulkey lol, has only been doing well since last season. How long had we used Eclipse, Sylphid, Polypoid and Vermeer? Like, forever. Largo and Allegro (aka Protoss graveyard) were used for 3 seasons. Arkanoid that Hero said it himself was a free win for Zerg. Heartbreak Ridge anyone?

By the way what's the problem with Citadel in ZvP. The win rate is close to 50% and I don't see any features too bad for Zerg. In fact looks pretty nasty for a Lurker contain.

On April 10 2024 11:11 XenOsky wrote:
i really wish JD tells the truth in this one...


edit: he didint lie, but you did, ur title says "pvz state" when in fact he is talking bout maps....

but im happy they are feeling years of PvZ karma





LOLOLOLOLOLOL

WASNT THIS THE STATE OF PVZ FOR LIKE 17+ YEARS?

BUT NOOOOOOOOOOOOW THAT WAY OF PLAYING BW ISNT SO FUN , HUH?... lil too late

On April 10 2024 11:11 XenOsky wrote:
i really wish JD tells the truth in this one...


edit: he didint lie, but you did, ur title says "pvz state" when in fact he is talking bout maps....

but im happy they are feeling years of PvZ karma





LOLOLOLOLOLOL

WASNT THIS THE STATE OF PVZ FOR LIKE 17+ YEARS?

BUT NOOOOOOOOOOOOW THAT WAY OF PLAYING BW ISNT SO FUN , HUH?... lil too late

On April 10 2024 12:34 XenOsky wrote:


#1



cause ive been hurt by this for years, now i can laugh

CRY ZERG PROGAMERS CRY ALL OVER THE INTERNEEEEEEEEEEEEEETZZZZZZZ

On April 10 2024 12:15 [AS]Rattus wrote:
i go to stork if i want to know about the state of any matchup

On April 10 2024 10:28 Shinokuki wrote:


Citadel is 47% win rate for zvp. Sylphid is not good for ZvP. Retro is good for ZvP yes but that's negated by abysmal 40% win rate for ZvT. NDO seems to be the only "balanced" map which is why it's there for many seasons now. It's a pretty 50% win rate for zvt and zvp. Vermeer is 41% zvt while having 52% zvp.. So those maps weren't even good for zergs overall. I give you largo and allegro but those were quickly taken out after one season. Also, I don't like to emphasize ASL that much. You know well that major proleagues, sponmatches, and other events are 95% of player's income and for months zergs have been underperforming compared to P/T.

On April 10 2024 07:54 Shinokuki wrote:
Many foreigners would be so dumbfounded by this as they've always been stating ZVP is imba, but they don't know how bad zvp has been on major proleagues, non asl tourneys, and sponmatches. This all started when Sylphid got nerf'd and map makers kept giving buffs to protoss because of how well zergs have been doing on ASL. Unfortunately, ASL has such a small sample size of what ZvP landscape is like nowadays and it is rather frustrating that ASL Map pools are still dictating online events which are the major source of income for all progamers. ASL is just for prestige at this point.

I heard something interesting yesterday from hero and he basically stated that zerg has to cheese and do a lot of killer timing attack to be able to hold a decent win rate vs P. If Z does not do that and wants to go standard vs P, Z will be behind nowadays. But how to do these killer timing moves when map makers give insane simcity wall for protoss and close to no chokepoints for zergs?

On April 10 2024 16:49 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
Is actually criminal what they did to sylphid. I remember it was one of the most fun maps and in my book it was a top 3 map ever. Then they made changes that allowed protoss to put zealots in imba gaps. Made gaz changes that destroyed zerg vs terran.

Dark origin is decent for zerg vs protoss but the gameplay is very stale. If protoss takes top right expo or bottom left you already know the result. Retro is very stale aswell. I wonder why Good night or Largo/Allegro was took out so fast from rotation. Imo it was a fun map to play compared to the ones of Escalade. RInging Bloom. Shakuras temple . Optimizer . I really hope next maps will not be as hard as the ones we are playing now that walling is really difficult.

On April 10 2024 15:16 TMNT wrote:

Largo was used once and they modified it into Allegro then used it for 2 more seasons. Allegro is the one of the most played map (9th, since eloboard was created) in the modern era.

I have been crying for years that ZvT win rates are terrible on most of the maps, with some of the most played maps being close to 60% for Terran, but Zerg crying about ZvP too is weird. Historically Protoss has always had only the weird ass maps where they can enjoy a significant positive win rate against Zerg.

Here's ZvP win rate on modern maps registered by eloboard, ordered by number of games decreasing:

Polypoid 53%
Vermeer 52.7%
Retro 52.9%
Eclipse 52.7%
Fighting Spirit 53.8%
Allegro 59.1%
(66k games on these first 6 maps)
Ascension 52.2%
Nemesis 52.1%
La Campanella 54.7%
Dark Origin 59.8%
Largo 63.4%
Heartbreak Ridge 52.1%
Goodnight 66.5%
Odyssey 51.9%
Metaverse 56.7%
76 58.3%
Neo Arkanoid 57.9%

Neo Sylphid 50%
Apocalypse 49.9%
Neo Dark Origin 50.9%
(20k games on these 3 maps)

Revolver 43.9% (the most played maps that can be considered Protoss favored in PvZ - 2700 games)
Butter 48.8%
Invader 48.9%
Tempest 48.6%
Radeon 48.3%
Citadel 47.3%
Blitz Y 36.3%
Monopoly 47%
Troy 41.2%
(and honestly, this list of Protoss-favored maps is not that "favored" with most of them being close to 49% for Zerg)

Protoss have played like 80k games on maps that can be considered Zerg-favored, while Zerg have played approx 10k games on Protoss-favored, and 20k games are played on somewhat balanced maps. Absurd that now we have two weird ass maps which will 100% not be used next season -they are just the equivalents of 76 or Arkanoid - and Zerg can cry about a change in state of ZvP.

On April 10 2024 15:16 TMNT wrote:

Largo was used once and they modified it into Allegro then used it for 2 more seasons. Allegro is the one of the most played map (9th, since eloboard was created) in the modern era.

I have been crying for years that ZvT win rates are terrible on most of the maps, with some of the most played maps being close to 60% for Terran, but Zerg crying about ZvP too is weird. Historically Protoss has always had only the weird ass maps where they can enjoy a significant positive win rate against Zerg.

Here's ZvP win rate on modern maps registered by eloboard, ordered by number of games decreasing:

Polypoid 53%
Vermeer 52.7%
Retro 52.9%
Eclipse 52.7%
Fighting Spirit 53.8%
Allegro 59.1%
(66k games on these first 6 maps)
Ascension 52.2%
Nemesis 52.1%
La Campanella 54.7%
Dark Origin 59.8%
Largo 63.4%
Heartbreak Ridge 52.1%
Goodnight 66.5%
Odyssey 51.9%
Metaverse 56.7%
76 58.3%
Neo Arkanoid 57.9%

Neo Sylphid 50%
Apocalypse 49.9%
Neo Dark Origin 50.9%
(20k games on these 3 maps)

Revolver 43.9% (the most played maps that can be considered Protoss favored in PvZ - 2700 games)
Butter 48.8%
Invader 48.9%
Tempest 48.6%
Radeon 48.3%
Citadel 47.3%
Blitz Y 36.3%
Monopoly 47%
Troy 41.2%
(and honestly, this list of Protoss-favored maps is not that "favored" with most of them being close to 49% for Zerg)

Protoss have played like 80k games on maps that can be considered Zerg-favored, while Zerg have played approx 10k games on Protoss-favored, and 20k games are played on somewhat balanced maps. Absurd that now we have two weird ass maps which will 100% not be used next season -they are just the equivalents of 76 or Arkanoid - and Zerg can cry about a change in state of ZvP.

On April 10 2024 23:20 Smorrie wrote:


I don't want to be nitpicking, esp. since you think I'm out on some sort of specific crusade, but not too long ago you were discrediting another poster for using elo to support his point, saying they were unreliable statistics. But now you're out here using elo statistics at your own convenience to support your own argument. Just thought that was only fair to point out.

(I think they're fine to use btw. Just because the benchmarking method is different from ASL or proleague statistics doesn't make them false.)

On April 10 2024 23:07 Shinokuki wrote:


Is there any way to see FS/RETRO/POLY stats for "recent" 1000 games? I feel zvp got harder since 2023. Also, my argument wasn't that it was always P favored but more like it started to tilt towards P recently while zvt being still way too hard for z pros. My concern is also more about the fact that there are two zergs in semi finals and that this may continue the trend of giving P good maps which will hurt Z.

On April 11 2024 01:00 TMNT wrote:

They are not the same thing. This is map win rates accross all games played, ever (registered). The other thing is the elo points of some specific players in a specific month. Honestly I'm a bit annoyed with your ignorance yet arrogance af.

On April 11 2024 02:28 Smorrie wrote:


You are selectively using statistics to support your claims, it's tiring. Why are these statistics suddenly valid now, while you considered the data set that these stats have been gathered from unreliable otherwise? What changed? People farming elo vs lower rated players are suddenly not obfuscating the data anymore? Does the fact that these are played through different eras not matter in a discussion about current day balance? You pretend to uphold some sort of statistical integrity, yet you cherry pick data to back your claims all the time. This was just recently pointed out to you as well, and you went off the rails as well. Ignorance you say?

The more you've been posting, the more you've been facing pushback from various other posters that have become annoyed by your arrogance and your condescending act. If you were always right and insightful this would be less of a problem, but your inconsistency and your personal quest to constantly try to 'outdo' others posters on TL.net, scavenging for any stat that might make your point seem valid, makes it a recurring sigh of frustration every time you're out there trying to score internet points.

It is evident that you have a lot of knowledge about events and games played, while simultaneously also having a limited conceptual understanding as your ideas commonly align with below B level expectations. Everyone's free to post their opinions but you don't have to push your misguided opinion onto everyone else. Whenever this is pointed out you lose the plot again. Talking about annoyance.

It's nice that you take the time and effort to post these results and schedules - it's definitely convenient when tuning into proleague and trying to get a hold of what's going on. Consider focusing on the groundwork while letting others draw their own conclusions - plays to everyone's strengths better.

As long as you are posting with this attitude you should be ready to get challenged as well, especially when you are being inconsistent or just plainly wrong. You're not special, you're just another poster, just like everyone else.

On April 11 2024 04:33 TMNT wrote:

You are sick in your head, spending that many words just to talk about another poster.

Let me point out your hypocrisy, or should I say, dick move, first: while everyone in this thread was just talking about maps and balance, you made a post just to point out what you think is my double standard, citing something I said 2 weeks ago to another poster (not even to you lol). A normal poster, who is on topic, would just agree or disagree with those map stats and elaborate on why he thinks so (see Sziky post above for example). But the main purpose of your post is solely to pick on me. You joined the thread not to discuss the topic, but to discuss about me. There's clearly a degree of obssession towards me. No wonder why I think that cheeseguy with 5/10 of his posts just to flame me is your clone.

More on your posts later.

On April 11 2024 04:39 Smorrie wrote:


You added more material to a post which originally was just an unhinged outburst by itself. All I did was providing a mirror. Truth can hurt sometimes. Who knows, who cares.

I'm not out here to waste my time on trash talking. This has nothing to do with some sort of non-existing grudge, as you've suggested before. When I'm reading too much BS I will call it out. That happened before, it happened this time & it will happen in the future again.

On April 10 2024 15:16 TMNT wrote:

Largo was used once and they modified it into Allegro then used it for 2 more seasons. Allegro is the one of the most played map (9th, since eloboard was created) in the modern era.

I have been crying for years that ZvT win rates are terrible on most of the maps, with some of the most played maps being close to 60% for Terran, but Zerg crying about ZvP too is weird. Historically Protoss has always had only the weird ass maps where they can enjoy a significant positive win rate against Zerg.

Here's ZvP win rate on modern maps registered by eloboard, ordered by number of games decreasing:

Polypoid 53%
Vermeer 52.7%
Retro 52.9%
Eclipse 52.7%
Fighting Spirit 53.8%
Allegro 59.1%
(66k games on these first 6 maps)
Ascension 52.2%
Nemesis 52.1%
La Campanella 54.7%
Dark Origin 59.8%
Largo 63.4%
Heartbreak Ridge 52.1%
Goodnight 66.5%
Odyssey 51.9%
Metaverse 56.7%
76 58.3%
Neo Arkanoid 57.9%

Neo Sylphid 50%
Apocalypse 49.9%
Neo Dark Origin 50.9%
(20k games on these 3 maps)

Revolver 43.9% (the most played maps that can be considered Protoss favored in PvZ - 2700 games)
Butter 48.8%
Invader 48.9%
Tempest 48.6%
Radeon 48.3%
Citadel 47.3%
Blitz Y 36.3%
Monopoly 47%
Troy 41.2%
(and honestly, this list of Protoss-favored maps is not that "favored" with most of them being close to 49% for Zerg)

Protoss have played like 80k games on maps that can be considered Zerg-favored, while Zerg have played approx 10k games on Protoss-favored, and 20k games are played on somewhat balanced maps. Absurd that now we have two weird ass maps which will 100% not be used next season -they are just the equivalents of 76 or Arkanoid - and Zerg can cry about a change in state of ZvP.

On April 11 2024 04:55 TMNT wrote:

Can you stop using jargon and digressing from the main point? You are the master of using a lot of words without actually, directly addressing the problem at hand.

My post is insightful, contains a lot of information, it stays on the topic, yes?
Your post adds nothing to the topic but an attempt of personal flaming, no?

Admit it like a man.

By the way, I will respond in details to many things you said. You said a lot of wrong ignorant shits that it really takes time.

Why are these statistics suddenly valid now, while you considered the data set that these stats have been gathered from unreliable otherwise?

On April 11 2024 05:40 Smorrie wrote:

Your post refers to a dataset which just recently you turned down when someone else used it. You don't have to admit anything, it's all documented. Posting a bunch of data does not suddenly make you a credible source. That is the point I am making.

On April 11 2024 06:20 TMNT wrote:

Dude, it's not the same data set. One is the map win rate of all time and one is the players elo ranking of at a specific time. This is the 3rd time I have to repeat this. Can you read please?

And yes, I called you ignorant in this thread first, but only after you quoted me with clear malintention. Although I have to say at this point I've proved with evidences that you are indeed ignorant.

Last but not least, you clearly had a problem with me before and acted condescendingly and sarcastically first in this thread not long ago while I was simply making a normal conversation, then again here along with the 10-post-troll, which I still suspect is your clone. In both cases (in the general thread and this one) I was making just purely informative posts but got a hostile response out of nowhere. Another thing is, I would at least have some respect for you if you can logically, reasonably argue on the topic of BW (like explain why this stats or that stats are good or bad) , but you seem to just spend paragraphs making comments about me without evidences to back up. Like, when I say you're ignorant I have to demonstrate your lack of understanding about the eloboard data (obviously you have no clue about it and probably have never even visited the site nor knowing any Korean) . But you, I have to say your way of arguing is absolute dog shit.

On April 11 2024 09:40 Smorrie wrote:


Your overuse of the words ignorant & ignorance make them lose their meaning. Try having some self-reflection.
Just to remind you; 1. You’ve been very condescending since your first response, almost troll-like. 2. You accuse me of mental illness while dragging me into your petty feuds and obsessive struggles. 3. You complain about my post’s length but write twice as much yourself. You mentioned hypocrisy?

I do have to admit that you definitely possess the talent to sour the mood of any room. Please keep me out of your own personal crusades and spare me your baseless insults.

Out of respect for Jinjin's efforts I'll leave this thread. Appreciate the vid, always enjoying the translations :D

On April 10 2024 23:07 Shinokuki wrote:
Is there any way to see FS/RETRO/POLY stats for "recent" 1000 games? I feel zvp got harder since 2023. Also, my argument wasn't that it was always P favored but more like it started to tilt towards P recently while zvt being still way too hard for z pros. My concern is also more about the fact that there are two zergs in semi finals and that this may continue the trend of giving P good maps which will hurt Z.

On April 11 2024 17:18 TMNT wrote:

Hey. So to get back to this point, I pulled all the games ever played on Retro registered on eloboard. The map was created in Dec 2022 so there is no data pre 2023 obviously.

Overall it's like this:
PvT 890-847 (51.2%)
TvZ 1099-813 (57.5%)
ZvP 871-776 (52.9%)

If you break it down over time by quarters (Q1 Q2 Q3 Q4 2023, then Q1 2024), it goes like this:
PvT (%): 53.1 - 51.6 - 51.8 - 47.1 - 53.3
TvZ (%): 47.1- 62.0 - 57.2 - 57.8 - 61.1
ZvP (%): 55.9 - 52.9 - 47.9 - 53.5 - 56.6

So PvT looks just stable. TvZ it looks like Terran struggles at first and then they figure out the map and just roll? (this is a common conception about Terran and their adaptability to maps). Not sure the dip mid 2023 in ZvP is about though, but ZvP doesn't see a downward trend in win rates (all games - maybe it'll be different if we filter Proleague games only).

On April 11 2024 19:36 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote:


Is there a way to take only the top 6 players from each race, or the top 5, and use only those in the data?
for example:
soma, soulkey, hero, queen, jaedong.
Light, Sharp, mind, RoyaL, JyJ
Snow, Mini, Best, Bisu, Rain

What are the stats with only these factored in?

For example Rush on Retro:
vsZ vsP vsT Total score


Or Bisu:
+ Show Spoiler +

On April 11 2024 20:18 TMNT wrote:

There's an advanced search function in eloboard that lets you filter almost anything you want. Maps, players, head to head, time period, Proleague or not.

Once you make a search and pull the list of games down, you can do anything. It just takes time. I wish the guys who run eloboard put these functions into the site.

On April 11 2024 20:19 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote:

link pls

On April 11 2024 20:37 TMNT wrote:

I thought you knew this. It's been there forever, right next to the proleague tab:
http://eloboard.com/men/bbs/board.php?bo_table=search_list

Mind that you often have to refresh the page every time you start a new search. Otherwise even after you delete the content in one field, the search result will still take the content you just deleted into account.

On April 12 2024 01:25 FlaShFTW wrote:
I just like the fact that Zergs finally feel the pain. Huehuehue.

On April 12 2024 01:48 G5 wrote:


I do agree with this. PvZ getting more balanced = Zergs freaking out? It's still Z favored but because it's harder to wreck P now, after 25 years of E Z P Z games, it is hilarious that Zerg complains at all. It's like Protoss' complaining that PvT is getting harder. It's like, get over yourselves roflmao. It's honestly a good thing.

On April 12 2024 01:48 G5 wrote:


I do agree with this. PvZ getting more balanced = Zergs freaking out? It's still Z favored but because it's harder to wreck P now, after 25 years of E Z P Z games, it is hilarious that Zerg complains at all. It's like Protoss' complaining that PvT is getting harder. It's like, get over yourselves roflmao. It's honestly a good thing.

On April 12 2024 03:28 Comedy wrote:


zvp against good protoss never really been easy. why you think dewalt and bonyth been dominating foreign scene so hard for 6 yrs?

we had good zergs. sziky. eon. trutacz. they all got rekt by protoss.

On April 12 2024 15:01 XenOsky wrote:


watching your heroes die to 973 and hidra gambles for years hurts, also getting stomped in ladder vs 400 mmr lower idiots doing gambles also hurts, getting eliminated in online and offline tournaments vs lower level zergs doing all in or semi all in gables also hurts, quitting the game several times over the years cause its impossible to beat zergs consistently over 2200 hurts... playing in the way of a fucking eddy DID HURT and fucking circuit breakers and sylphid did also hurt...


fk zergs man, their mirror is 3 minutes long, vs p they have 3 billion builds and vs terran they just have to control mutas and get to hive... freelo fking race

dont try to tell me what hurts me and what does not, ok?

On April 12 2024 03:28 Comedy wrote:


zvp against good protoss never really been easy. why you think dewalt and bonyth been dominating foreign scene so hard for 6 yrs?

we had good zergs. sziky. eon. trutacz. they all got rekt by protoss.

On April 12 2024 15:52 G5 wrote:


First off, nothing in SC is easy. Relatively speaking though, ZvP has been one of the easiest match ups in the game for the better part of 25 years.

The reason Dewalt and Bonyth have done so well in the remastered era is because their better than other foreigners lol. They study and play more. They're simply better. I don't think people even grasp the gap of levels between players. I don't think people even recognize how truly bad top foreigners are in comparison to top Koreans. People see a foreigner take a game here and there and think it's close. It ain't. The level of a league like BSL is an absolute joke compared to leagues like ASL. Not one foreigner can even make it out of ASL qualifiers. If there wasn't foreign leagues and everyone just played in the same leagues, you likely wouldn't know whom most of the players you just named even are.

You bring up top foreigner Zerg names and think because they struggle against people whom are clearly better than them that it's proof ZvP hasn't historically been one of the easiest match ups in the game for as long as the game has been out? It's like saying because Bisu has owned someone like 815 for the past decade that ZvP is really hard. They're literally on different levels of the game. It's a bad comparison.

I simply wouldn't use foreigners as an example at all since their understanding and execution of the game is extremely poor in comparison to actual pros and some of the level gaps between top foreigners are massive.

Side note just so y'all don't think I'm completely shitting on foreigners: I will give credit to Dewalt and some of the Chinese players. They are very good and are definitely starting to close the gap but they have a long way to go before being any real threat to the pros. I do sincerely hope it happens one day though.

On April 12 2024 18:18 sas.Sziky wrote:
''Dewalt, Mihu, zhanhun and xhiaoshuai are better because they play vs low and mid tier korean pros a lot outside of the ladder.(in adddition to maybe having more talent.)'' yes and except Dewalt, Mihu( sometimes yes), they are losing in BSL and some sm aganst us. more talent.. omg you are incredible. I don't come here anymore

On April 12 2024 18:45 Comedy wrote:
You are missing the point. It's not about who is the best foreigner, it's about the ease of playing protoss vs zerg.

One thing is clear as day : Sziky has far better mechanics than dewalt and bonyth. But they play protoss, yet you have people like g5 claiming zerg has such an easy time vs protoss, because he himself has never been able to play the matchup.

All sziky was saying is that on his level (top foreigner, amateur level), zerg has no advantadge vs protoss. Something I think is not difficult to agree with.

On April 12 2024 18:45 Comedy wrote:
You are missing the point. It's not about who is the best foreigner, it's about the ease of playing protoss vs zerg.

One thing is clear as day : Sziky has far better mechanics than dewalt and bonyth. But they play protoss, yet you have people like g5 claiming zerg has such an easy time vs protoss, because he himself has never been able to play the matchup.

All sziky was saying is that on his level (top foreigner, amateur level), zerg has no advantadge vs protoss. Something I think is not difficult to agree with.

On April 12 2024 20:43 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
So when protoss win they are genuises. But when zerg win is a different story. Make it make sense LMAO.

On April 12 2024 21:35 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:

Im the first to admit those guys are incredible.I even said this on BSL interviews before or my streams. Im out of the race since 2019. But is really strange that we picking stats to proof something but in other cases it comes to geniuses no ? LOL. Idk who are the best zerg players right now apart from Sziky i dont keep up. But that was an interesting way of explaining why protoss dominates the foreigner scene.

On April 12 2024 22:00 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
So by that definition Soulkey is a genius in your book ? he is the progamer that play the less. He spend weeks with rain grinding league of legends or just taking day off all the time ( he surely is a genius and his wins have nothing to do with balance right ? ). The thing is that what tells you in those stats that you show about pvz those zergs are not genuises ? How do you know how much a person plays or not ?

On April 12 2024 16:44 sas.Sziky wrote:

if you're so smart and know exactly these things and then please tell me how u know how they are better ? they have better mechanic?(not) they practice more? ( maybe ) they smartest ( maybe ) race different(maybe) 3:maybe 1:fact . please man don't make such statements because of your frustration in bw. i have a little bit more experience than you and i I can tell you that there is no z favorite at this level. in pro ? not my level i cant talk about this.

On April 13 2024 00:13 G5 wrote:


I made no statement because of my "frustration with bw" lol. It's all just my education opinion. But what are you upset about exactly? Me saying Dewalt and Bonyth are better than you? They are. Results don't lie. It's okay, unless your name is FlaSh, there's basically always someone better than you and those two have been better than any other non-korean or Chinese player for years now. So, being worse than them isn't a crazy thing.

If you want my opinion as to the main reasons why that is, it's because they study their games and others more and understand the game and the current meta better than you and other foreigners. They train in a way (especially Dewalt) that is extremely smart in terms of player development. They also play big matches better and smarter. They can prep and put together series extremely well (especially Bonyth). It's a compliment to them, not a knock to you. Don't get offended about it. You're a good player. No one is saying you aren't.

On April 13 2024 01:21 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
G5 but in the new maps Citadel.Radeon and Blitz Y. While walling for protoss is keep the same cuz you build a pylon to get your buildings done. For zerg do you need to wait for creep to expand very far and is making walling for us extremely hard. Not only that but in mutltiple locations is not even possible to fully wall and is open everywhere.That is why in many cases now do you see a zerg building hatchery sunken then completing the wall. Or in other cases your making hydra den evolution in the main or your third expo cuz it cant be part of your main wall if you wanna build it on timing. Taking that in consideration most of these new maps dont really allow for a 4 expo layout. You cant really plan to lategame cuz there is no way to defend your base if you are in even terms. Best case is you did some early game damage and that let you properly setup your 4. But even so is still very hard to fight lategame cuz protoss is free to take 2 extra expansions most of the time.

On April 13 2024 00:57 G5 wrote:
Anyways. To get on point.

Protoss has always had an easier time vs Terran. The main reason for this is that Protoss historically has always had a stronger early game with map control, better vision, and a ton of different tech paths or expansion options to go down while the Terran was in the dark a lot of the time early on. Because of this game dynamic in the match up, Protoss not only gets to dictate the meta more, they also get to take advantage of the typical Terran response to the current meta. This is because it's harder for Terran to scout or do anything about what Protoss decides to do early.

All of the same game dynamics apply to ZvP. Protoss is in the dark more in the early game and Zerg has a ton of paths they can proceed with the game.

A simple example of meta advantage would be when Z started the 973 meta, Protoss got wrecked for a while and had to adapt to the meta being set by the Zerg. Zergs then started taking advantage of Protoss' response to the meta in a variety of ways, including just making 5-6 Hydra and forcing a bunch of cannons / killing the wall and droning behind in order to get ahead. Protoss then has to adapt. If one race is setting the meta more often than the other in a match up, they have an advantage. The only reason this is the case in ZvP and PvT is because of the early game dynamics of army strength, map control, vision, and the amount of viable build order options (as mentioned above).

The main difference in PvZ as of late is that map makers have made 1 gate Zealot openings viable. They weren't before. You see how all these old maps get remade? One feature of all of them is the viability of 1 gate openings and easier walls in general for Protoss' at their naturals. This has allowed for easier early scouting for Protoss through Zealot pressure. It's allowed for Zergs to not get away with so much droning. It's allowed for safer and quicker Stargates and sair vision. It has made the match up a lot easier for Protoss because these dynamics have made it a lot harder for Zergs to dictate the meta and that's why PvZ isn't as hard as it used to be. I think it's great.

On April 13 2024 02:31 Shinokuki wrote:


At the same time, they're not giving anything to zerg for zvt. Good ASL results have corrupted our map pool and just wish it was a bit easier. It's good that protoss got theirs because zvp had like 55%+ win rate at some point but now it's more balanced but we gotta realllly drop maps like blitz and troy tho

On April 12 2024 23:19 RJBTV wrote:

The amount of time soulkey takes off is greatly overestimated. But yes he is a natural talent on the level of understanding and multitasking. His micro is not much better and some of his mechanics are inferior to most pro zergs.

Foreign zergs need to have more access to korean zergs and their thinking.

also stats become more unreliable the smaller the sample size becomes because individual player variance affects outcmes

On April 13 2024 04:12 whaski wrote:
I just wonder how come that after wining one ASL we are getting some maps that are truly bad for zvp when the best online player for whole year is protoss who has quite good record against zergs.

On April 13 2024 18:09 sophisticated wrote:

Because offline != online, but for some reason online mappools are based on offline mappools. See some posts on the first page of in this thread.
From Snow's perspective it would be rational to intentionally underperform in ASL in order to skew mappools towards protoss and then (continue to) dominate in proleague/streams which is where the money is

On April 13 2024 20:26 kogeT wrote:
This graph very well explains the bitching on both sides about match up imbalance. The reason zergs go all in is because zergs are glass cannon - even minor early game disruption (losing a drone, getting hath blocked etc.) feels like instant lose in mid game, therefore zergs go all in. This is also reflected in Jaedong point - you would love to play a normal game as zerg but it just not worth going into an even/slightly behind game mid game vs P. To make a point different, if you take away early game Z bullshit (mass lings, hydra busts, muta all ins), zerg win ratio vs P would be probably below 40% on most of the maps. This is the mindset that zergs have to work very often - don't think about how to make an iterative advantage but how to close the game. Somehow with mid/late game TvZ, where T gets vessels/tanks and can attack in 2-3 places at the same times, many zergs prefer to all in prior to that stage as it is very difficult to hold, even with overall advantage. All in all, 3 different races with different play/strategic concepts. People should realize that and respect each other more.

On April 12 2024 22:00 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
So by that definition Soulkey is a genius in your book ? he is the progamer that play the less. He spend weeks with rain grinding league of legends or just taking day off all the time ( he surely is a genius and his wins have nothing to do with balance right ? ). The thing is that what tells you in those stats that you show about pvz those zergs are not genuises ? How do you know how much a person plays or not ?

On April 13 2024 23:28 Smorrie wrote:
Good post KogeT. I'm pretty sure that data set also includes 973's heyday which amplifies this even more.

SK vs Bisu in ASL is also a great representation of this - Bisu got ahead too far, but SK cancelled his macro hatch and put down a dual den which gave him just barely enough time to find an effective window and take that W. Using his muta pressure he prevented scouting to obfuscate his off-beat bust. He knew it wasn't worth trying to stretch a game which's outcome was pretty much set already.

Taking that Protoss generally is getting increasingly better at applying different ways of pressure and getting better reads, at least at higher levels of play, is pretty much why higher level zergs in this thread are saying there is no advantage.

On April 14 2024 02:29 Ideas wrote:


Yea that was such a genius play from SK but to newer fan might just look like a standard hydra bust. I love how freaking deep the pros have taken the meta in BW.

On April 14 2024 00:39 TMNT wrote:

You seem to be too concerned about my comment about Bonyth being a genius? I think he streams one or two times a week, at most? And most of the times he has to wait forever to get a game because at his mmr he can't find foreign opponents and has to wait to be matched with a Korean who will instantly leave or accept to play at a terrible TR. That's all the practice at "high level" he can get as far as I know, unless he practices offstream like a mad man (but with whom?). You notice I didn't say Dewalt is a genius? It's just my opinion about one player in particular.

So I don't really know how to answer your question about those Zergs not being geniuses because that's not what I implied. Some of them probably are. Soulkey probably is, given he and Rain are champions in both SC1 and SC2. But keep in mind that despite what they're doing now as streamers, they all sat their asses off in teamhouses 15 years ago playing Starcraft at least 12 hours a day, with coaches and high level practice partners.

On April 14 2024 21:06 BulgarianToss wrote:


Bonyth is using korean VPN to be matched with koreans and play at better TR with them. It's not perfect and the VPN is not always stable, but he is able to get practice with koreans. I think eon is right that you never know how much anyone is playing unless you are living with them. I'm sure offline practice for the top players is a must to stay sharp/improve on small details of the game.

On April 14 2024 21:56 TMNT wrote:

I know, I watched his streams. But one thing for sure: he plays much less than Dewalt, the top Chinese players, and the Korean amateurs. But he's at their level, if not better (bar the Koreans). You can't say that for anyone else in the foreign scene. That's what make him a genius among the foreigners. Either that, or Protoss is too easy lol.

On April 15 2024 02:44 cRoSsyy wrote:
jinjin messed this up. he gotta come out public and apologize