EPTJD on current state of ZvP
| Forum Index > BW General |
|
jinjin5000
United States1467 Posts
| ||
|
Shinokuki
United States923 Posts
I heard something interesting yesterday from hero and he basically stated that zerg has to cheese and do a lot of killer timing attack to be able to hold a decent win rate vs P. If Z does not do that and wants to go standard vs P, Z will be behind nowadays. But how to do these killer timing moves when map makers give insane simcity wall for protoss and close to no chokepoints for zergs? | ||
|
[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6793 Posts
| ||
|
End1ess
Canada74 Posts
| ||
|
TMNT
3102 Posts
On April 10 2024 07:54 Shinokuki wrote: Many foreigners would be so dumbfounded by this as they've always been stating ZVP is imba, but they don't know how bad zvp has been on major proleagues, non asl tourneys, and sponmatches. This all started when Sylphid got nerf'd and map makers kept giving buffs to protoss because of how well zergs have been doing on ASL. Unfortunately, ASL has such a small sample size of what ZvP landscape is like nowadays and it is rather frustrating that ASL Map pools are still dictating online events which are the major source of income for all progamers. ASL is just for prestige at this point. I heard something interesting yesterday from hero and he basically stated that zerg has to cheese and do a lot of killer timing attack to be able to hold a decent win rate vs P. If Z does not do that and wants to go standard vs P, Z will be behind nowadays. But how to do these killer timing moves when map makers give insane simcity wall for protoss and close to no chokepoints for zergs? Oh come on. I'm running the Proleague thread myself. It's only recently. And compounded by Soma going to the military. Yes Troy and Blitz are bad for ZvP but these maps will 100% not stay for next season. Meanwhile Retro and NDO which are slightly Zerg favored have been there for 3 seasons? This is like the first Protoss favored map pool since the Sparkle season (may explain the first time they have 4 players in Ro8 since) ? And Zerg, I mean Soulkey lol, has only been doing well since last season. How long had we used Eclipse, Sylphid, Polypoid and Vermeer? Like, forever. Largo and Allegro (aka Protoss graveyard) were used for 3 seasons. Arkanoid that Hero said it himself was a free win for Zerg. Heartbreak Ridge anyone? By the way what's the problem with Citadel in ZvP. The win rate is close to 50% and I don't see any features too bad for Zerg. In fact looks pretty nasty for a Lurker contain. | ||
|
Shinokuki
United States923 Posts
On April 10 2024 09:53 TMNT wrote: Oh come on. I'm running the Proleague thread myself. It's only recently. And compounded by Soma going to the military. Yes Troy and Blitz are bad for ZvP but these maps will 100% not stay for next season. Meanwhile Retro and NDO which are slightly Zerg favored have been there for 3 seasons? This is like the first Protoss favored map pool since the Sparkle season (may explain the first time they have 4 players in Ro8 since) ? And Zerg, I mean Soulkey lol, has only been doing well since last season. How long had we used Eclipse, Sylphid, Polypoid and Vermeer? Like, forever. Largo and Allegro (aka Protoss graveyard) were used for 3 seasons. Arkanoid that Hero said it himself was a free win for Zerg. Heartbreak Ridge anyone? By the way what's the problem with Citadel in ZvP. The win rate is close to 50% and I don't see any features too bad for Zerg. In fact looks pretty nasty for a Lurker contain. Citadel is 47% win rate for zvp. Sylphid is not good for ZvP. Retro is good for ZvP yes but that's negated by abysmal 40% win rate for ZvT. NDO seems to be the only "balanced" map which is why it's there for many seasons now. It's a pretty 50% win rate for zvt and zvp. Vermeer is 41% zvt while having 52% zvp.. So those maps weren't even good for zergs overall. I give you largo and allegro but those were quickly taken out after one season. Also, I don't like to emphasize ASL that much. You know well that major proleagues, sponmatches, and other events are 95% of player's income and for months zergs have been underperforming compared to P/T. | ||
|
XenOsky
Chile2298 Posts
edit: he didint lie, but you did, ur title says "pvz state" when in fact he is talking bout maps.... but im happy they are feeling years of PvZ karma On April 10 2024 07:54 Shinokuki wrote: I heard something interesting yesterday from hero and he basically stated that zerg has to cheese and do a lot of killer timing attack to be able to hold a decent win rate LOLOLOLOLOLOL WASNT THIS THE STATE OF PVZ FOR LIKE 17+ YEARS? BUT NOOOOOOOOOOOOW THAT WAY OF PLAYING BW ISNT SO FUN , HUH?... lil too late | ||
|
jinjin5000
United States1467 Posts
On April 10 2024 11:11 XenOsky wrote: i really wish JD tells the truth in this one... edit: he didint lie, but you did, ur title says "pvz state" when in fact he is talking bout maps.... but im happy they are feeling years of PvZ karma LOLOLOLOLOLOL WASNT THIS THE STATE OF PVZ FOR LIKE 17+ YEARS? BUT NOOOOOOOOOOOOW THAT WAY OF PLAYING BW ISNT SO FUN , HUH?... lil too late Maps leading to zerg having current performance in its state in pvz is a lie? Dang I must be master of clickbait. | ||
|
Shinokuki
United States923 Posts
On April 10 2024 11:11 XenOsky wrote: i really wish JD tells the truth in this one... edit: he didint lie, but you did, ur title says "pvz state" when in fact he is talking bout maps.... but im happy they are feeling years of PvZ karma LOLOLOLOLOLOL WASNT THIS THE STATE OF PVZ FOR LIKE 17+ YEARS? BUT NOOOOOOOOOOOOW THAT WAY OF PLAYING BW ISNT SO FUN , HUH?... lil too late Current meta and stats is what is most important for current progamers. Why do we have to talk about the past? Past does not exist anymore. He's just venting because ZvT is ALSO hard. | ||
|
[AS]Rattus
427 Posts
| ||
|
XenOsky
Chile2298 Posts
On April 10 2024 11:23 jinjin5000 wrote: Dang I must be master of clickbait. #1 On April 10 2024 11:51 Shinokuki wrote: Current meta and stats is what is most important for current progamers. Why do we have to talk about the past? Past does not exist anymore. He's just venting because ZvT is ALSO hard. cause ive been hurt by this for years, now i can laugh CRY ZERG PROGAMERS CRY ALL OVER THE INTERNEEEEEEEEEEEEEETZZZZZZZ | ||
|
Shinokuki
United States923 Posts
On April 10 2024 12:34 XenOsky wrote: #1 cause ive been hurt by this for years, now i can laugh CRY ZERG PROGAMERS CRY ALL OVER THE INTERNEEEEEEEEEEEEEETZZZZZZZ You haven't even been remotely hurt. For years protoss amaterus dominated on FS. If anything, you benefited from being a protoss. Protoss at top level suffered against larva/soma/queen but not you lmao | ||
|
TuEIite
Canada18 Posts
| ||
|
Bonyth
Poland593 Posts
On April 10 2024 12:15 [AS]Rattus wrote: i go to stork if i want to know about the state of any matchup ^ | ||
|
TMNT
3102 Posts
On April 10 2024 10:28 Shinokuki wrote: Citadel is 47% win rate for zvp. Sylphid is not good for ZvP. Retro is good for ZvP yes but that's negated by abysmal 40% win rate for ZvT. NDO seems to be the only "balanced" map which is why it's there for many seasons now. It's a pretty 50% win rate for zvt and zvp. Vermeer is 41% zvt while having 52% zvp.. So those maps weren't even good for zergs overall. I give you largo and allegro but those were quickly taken out after one season. Also, I don't like to emphasize ASL that much. You know well that major proleagues, sponmatches, and other events are 95% of player's income and for months zergs have been underperforming compared to P/T. Largo was used once and they modified it into Allegro then used it for 2 more seasons. Allegro is the one of the most played map (9th, since eloboard was created) in the modern era. I have been crying for years that ZvT win rates are terrible on most of the maps, with some of the most played maps being close to 60% for Terran, but Zerg crying about ZvP too is weird. Historically Protoss has always had only the weird ass maps where they can enjoy a significant positive win rate against Zerg. Here's ZvP win rate on modern maps registered by eloboard, ordered by number of games decreasing: Polypoid 53% Vermeer 52.7% Retro 52.9% Eclipse 52.7% Fighting Spirit 53.8% Allegro 59.1% (66k games on these first 6 maps) Ascension 52.2% Nemesis 52.1% La Campanella 54.7% Dark Origin 59.8% Largo 63.4% Heartbreak Ridge 52.1% Goodnight 66.5% Odyssey 51.9% Metaverse 56.7% 76 58.3% Neo Arkanoid 57.9% Neo Sylphid 50% Apocalypse 49.9% Neo Dark Origin 50.9% (20k games on these 3 maps) Revolver 43.9% (the most played maps that can be considered Protoss favored in PvZ - 2700 games) Butter 48.8% Invader 48.9% Tempest 48.6% Radeon 48.3% Citadel 47.3% Blitz Y 36.3% Monopoly 47% Troy 41.2% (and honestly, this list of Protoss-favored maps is not that "favored" with most of them being close to 49% for Zerg) Protoss have played like 80k games on maps that can be considered Zerg-favored, while Zerg have played approx 10k games on Protoss-favored, and 20k games are played on somewhat balanced maps. Absurd that now we have two weird ass maps which will 100% not be used next season -they are just the equivalents of 76 or Arkanoid - and Zerg can cry about a change in state of ZvP. Edit: some corrections: the numbers of games are all doubled. Eloboard counts x PvZ games and then add x ZvP games again lol. Everything should be divided by 2 | ||
|
True_Spike
Poland3426 Posts
As much as I love JD, every bro bitches a lot about his own race; That's just how it is. These 2 maps are going to be gone next season and ZvP will be back to normal (e.g. Z favoured). Besides, it's very likely we will be getting a ZvZ final this season anyways  | ||
|
[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6793 Posts
Dark origin is decent for zerg vs protoss but the gameplay is very stale. If protoss takes top right expo or bottom left you already know the result. Retro is very stale aswell. I wonder why Good night or Largo/Allegro was took out so fast from rotation. Imo it was a fun map to play compared to the ones of Escalade. RInging Bloom. Shakuras temple . Optimizer . I really hope next maps will not be as hard as the ones we are playing now that walling is really difficult. On April 10 2024 12:15 [AS]Rattus wrote: i go to stork if i want to know about the state of any matchup Guess what. Is common for Stork to Beat Soulkey or Jaedong lol. And this is just progamer level. Us mortals truly have no chance. Protoss on ladder dont play like Mini with your natural wide open so you can finish them with mass lings. | ||
|
iopq
United States1015 Posts
I really liked Tempest, but NONE of the Protoss players I spoke to liked it because they'd rather do a 2 base push vs. a Zerg than take two bases and play 4 base vs. 4 base. I think that's weird, look at any pro replay when Zerg goes far away 3rd, it's always a cool game that goes late | ||
|
Highways
Australia6105 Posts
They both rarely lose ZvP.... | ||
|
M3t4PhYzX
Poland4228 Posts
On April 10 2024 07:54 Shinokuki wrote: Many foreigners would be so dumbfounded by this as they've always been stating ZVP is imba, but they don't know how bad zvp has been on major proleagues, non asl tourneys, and sponmatches. This all started when Sylphid got nerf'd and map makers kept giving buffs to protoss because of how well zergs have been doing on ASL. Unfortunately, ASL has such a small sample size of what ZvP landscape is like nowadays and it is rather frustrating that ASL Map pools are still dictating online events which are the major source of income for all progamers. ASL is just for prestige at this point. I heard something interesting yesterday from hero and he basically stated that zerg has to cheese and do a lot of killer timing attack to be able to hold a decent win rate vs P. If Z does not do that and wants to go standard vs P, Z will be behind nowadays. But how to do these killer timing moves when map makers give insane simcity wall for protoss and close to no chokepoints for zergs? oh no! my heart aches for the poor, poor bugs.. j/k, lmao. hopefully this lasts a little bit longer, if even true. get wrecked!  | ||
| ||
