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On April 12 2024 22:00 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
So by that definition Soulkey is a genius in your book ? he is the progamer that play the less. He spend weeks with rain grinding league of legends or just taking day off all the time ( he surely is a genius and his wins have nothing to do with balance right ? ). The thing is that what tells you in those stats that you show about pvz those zergs are not genuises ? How do you know how much a person plays or not ?
The amount of time soulkey takes off is greatly overestimated. But yes he is a natural talent on the level of understanding and multitasking. His micro is not much better and some of his mechanics are inferior to most pro zergs.
Foreign zergs need to have more access to korean zergs and their thinking.
also stats become more unreliable the smaller the sample size becomes because individual player variance affects outcmes
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On April 12 2024 16:44 sas.Sziky wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2024 15:52 G5 wrote:On April 12 2024 03:28 Comedy wrote:On April 12 2024 01:48 G5 wrote:On April 12 2024 01:25 FlaShFTW wrote:
I just like the fact that Zergs finally feel the pain. Huehuehue. I do agree with this. PvZ getting more balanced = Zergs freaking out? It's still Z favored but because it's harder to wreck P now, after 25 years of E Z P Z games, it is hilarious that Zerg complains at all. It's like Protoss' complaining that PvT is getting harder. It's like, get over yourselves roflmao. It's honestly a good thing. zvp against good protoss never really been easy. why you think dewalt and bonyth been dominating foreign scene so hard for 6 yrs? we had good zergs. sziky. eon. trutacz. they all got rekt by protoss. First off, nothing in SC is easy. Relatively speaking though, ZvP has been one of the easiest match ups in the game for the better part of 25 years. The reason Dewalt and Bonyth have done so well in the remastered era is because their better than other foreigners lol. They study and play more. They're simply better. I don't think people even grasp the gap of levels between players. I don't think people even recognize how truly bad top foreigners are in comparison to top Koreans. People see a foreigner take a game here and there and think it's close. It ain't. The level of a league like BSL is an absolute joke compared to leagues like ASL. Not one foreigner can even make it out of ASL qualifiers. If there wasn't foreign leagues and everyone just played in the same leagues, you likely wouldn't know whom most of the players you just named even are. You bring up top foreigner Zerg names and think because they struggle against people whom are clearly better than them that it's proof ZvP hasn't historically been one of the easiest match ups in the game for as long as the game has been out? It's like saying because Bisu has owned someone like 815 for the past decade that ZvP is really hard. They're literally on different levels of the game. It's a bad comparison. I simply wouldn't use foreigners as an example at all since their understanding and execution of the game is extremely poor in comparison to actual pros and some of the level gaps between top foreigners are massive. Side note just so y'all don't think I'm completely shitting on foreigners: I will give credit to Dewalt and some of the Chinese players. They are very good and are definitely starting to close the gap but they have a long way to go before being any real threat to the pros. I do sincerely hope it happens one day though. if you're so smart and know exactly these things and then please tell me how u know how they are better ? they have better mechanic?(not) they practice more? ( maybe ) they smartest ( maybe ) race different(maybe) 3:maybe 1:fact . please man don't make such statements because of your frustration in bw. i have a little bit more experience than you and i I can tell you that there is no z favorite at this level. in pro ? not my level i cant talk about this.
I made no statement because of my "frustration with bw" lol. It's all just my educated opinion. But what are you upset about exactly? Me saying Dewalt and Bonyth are better than you? They are. Results don't lie. It's okay, unless your name is FlaSh, there's basically always someone better than you and those two have been better than any other non-korean or non-Chinese player for years now. So, being worse than them isn't a crazy thing.
If you want my opinion as to the main reasons why that is, it's because they study their games and others more and understand the game and the current meta better than you and other foreigners. They train in a way (especially Dewalt) that is extremely smart in terms of player development. They also play big matches better and smarter. They can prep and put together series extremely well (especially Bonyth). It's a compliment to them, not a knock to you. Don't get offended about it. You're a good player. No one is saying you aren't.
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On April 13 2024 00:13 G5 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2024 16:44 sas.Sziky wrote:On April 12 2024 15:52 G5 wrote:On April 12 2024 03:28 Comedy wrote:On April 12 2024 01:48 G5 wrote:On April 12 2024 01:25 FlaShFTW wrote:
I just like the fact that Zergs finally feel the pain. Huehuehue. I do agree with this. PvZ getting more balanced = Zergs freaking out? It's still Z favored but because it's harder to wreck P now, after 25 years of E Z P Z games, it is hilarious that Zerg complains at all. It's like Protoss' complaining that PvT is getting harder. It's like, get over yourselves roflmao. It's honestly a good thing. zvp against good protoss never really been easy. why you think dewalt and bonyth been dominating foreign scene so hard for 6 yrs? we had good zergs. sziky. eon. trutacz. they all got rekt by protoss. First off, nothing in SC is easy. Relatively speaking though, ZvP has been one of the easiest match ups in the game for the better part of 25 years. The reason Dewalt and Bonyth have done so well in the remastered era is because their better than other foreigners lol. They study and play more. They're simply better. I don't think people even grasp the gap of levels between players. I don't think people even recognize how truly bad top foreigners are in comparison to top Koreans. People see a foreigner take a game here and there and think it's close. It ain't. The level of a league like BSL is an absolute joke compared to leagues like ASL. Not one foreigner can even make it out of ASL qualifiers. If there wasn't foreign leagues and everyone just played in the same leagues, you likely wouldn't know whom most of the players you just named even are. You bring up top foreigner Zerg names and think because they struggle against people whom are clearly better than them that it's proof ZvP hasn't historically been one of the easiest match ups in the game for as long as the game has been out? It's like saying because Bisu has owned someone like 815 for the past decade that ZvP is really hard. They're literally on different levels of the game. It's a bad comparison. I simply wouldn't use foreigners as an example at all since their understanding and execution of the game is extremely poor in comparison to actual pros and some of the level gaps between top foreigners are massive. Side note just so y'all don't think I'm completely shitting on foreigners: I will give credit to Dewalt and some of the Chinese players. They are very good and are definitely starting to close the gap but they have a long way to go before being any real threat to the pros. I do sincerely hope it happens one day though. if you're so smart and know exactly these things and then please tell me how u know how they are better ? they have better mechanic?(not) they practice more? ( maybe ) they smartest ( maybe ) race different(maybe) 3:maybe 1:fact . please man don't make such statements because of your frustration in bw. i have a little bit more experience than you and i I can tell you that there is no z favorite at this level. in pro ? not my level i cant talk about this. I made no statement because of my "frustration with bw" lol. It's all just my education opinion. But what are you upset about exactly? Me saying Dewalt and Bonyth are better than you? They are. Results don't lie. It's okay, unless your name is FlaSh, there's basically always someone better than you and those two have been better than any other non-korean or Chinese player for years now. So, being worse than them isn't a crazy thing. If you want my opinion as to the main reasons why that is, it's because they study their games and others more and understand the game and the current meta better than you and other foreigners. They train in a way (especially Dewalt) that is extremely smart in terms of player development. They also play big matches better and smarter. They can prep and put together series extremely well (especially Bonyth). It's a compliment to them, not a knock to you. Don't get offended about it. You're a good player. No one is saying you aren't.
Protoss wins more at foreign level when players are equally skilled.
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Anyways. To get on point.
Protoss has always had an easier time vs Terran. The main reason for this is that Protoss historically has always had a stronger early game with map control, better vision, and a ton of different tech paths or expansion options to go down while the Terran was in the dark a lot of the time early on. Because of this game dynamic in the match up, Protoss not only gets to dictate the meta more, they also get to take advantage of the typical Terran response to the current meta. This is because it's harder for Terran to scout or do anything about what Protoss decides to do early.
All of the same game dynamics apply to ZvP. Protoss is in the dark more in the early game and Zerg has a ton of paths they can proceed with the game.
A simple example of meta advantage would be when Z started the 973 meta, Protoss got wrecked for a while and had to adapt to the meta being set by the Zerg. Zergs then started taking advantage of Protoss' response to the meta in a variety of ways, including just making 5-6 Hydra and forcing a bunch of cannons / killing the wall and droning behind in order to get ahead. Protoss then has to adapt. If one race is setting the meta more often than the other in a match up, they have an advantage. The only reason this is the case in ZvP and PvT is because of the early game dynamics of army strength, map control, vision, and the amount of viable build order options (as mentioned above).
The main difference in PvZ as of late is that map makers have made 1 gate Zealot openings viable. They weren't before. You see how all these old maps get remade? One feature of all of them is the viability of 1 gate openings and easier walls in general for Protoss' at their naturals. This has allowed for easier early scouting for Protoss through Zealot pressure. It's allowed for Zergs to not get away with so much droning. It's allowed for safer and quicker Stargates and sair vision. It has made the match up a lot easier for Protoss because these dynamics have made it a lot harder for Zergs to dictate the meta and that's why PvZ isn't as hard as it used to be. I think it's great.
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G5 but in the new maps Citadel.Radeon and Blitz Y. While walling for protoss is keep the same cuz you build a pylon to get your buildings done. For zerg do you need to wait for creep to expand very far and is making walling for us extremely hard. Not only that but in mutltiple locations is not even possible to fully wall and is open everywhere.That is why in many cases now do you see a zerg building hatchery sunken then completing the wall. Or in other cases your making hydra den evolution in the main or your third expo cuz it cant be part of your main wall if you wanna build it on timing. Taking that in consideration most of these new maps dont really allow for a 4 expo layout. You cant really plan to lategame cuz there is no way to defend your base if you are in even terms. Best case is you did some early game damage and that let you properly setup your 4. But even so is still very hard to fight lategame cuz protoss is free to take 2 extra expansions most of the time.
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On April 13 2024 01:21 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
G5 but in the new maps Citadel.Radeon and Blitz Y. While walling for protoss is keep the same cuz you build a pylon to get your buildings done. For zerg do you need to wait for creep to expand very far and is making walling for us extremely hard. Not only that but in mutltiple locations is not even possible to fully wall and is open everywhere.That is why in many cases now do you see a zerg building hatchery sunken then completing the wall. Or in other cases your making hydra den evolution in the main or your third expo cuz it cant be part of your main wall if you wanna build it on timing. Taking that in consideration most of these new maps dont really allow for a 4 expo layout. You cant really plan to lategame cuz there is no way to defend your base if you are in even terms. Best case is you did some early game damage and that let you properly setup your 4. But even so is still very hard to fight lategame cuz protoss is free to take 2 extra expansions most of the time.
I'll be honest, I didn't think about Zerg walls but what you said makes sense. That would be another thing where some of the maps are affecting the difficulty of ZvP currently.
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On April 13 2024 00:57 G5 wrote:
Anyways. To get on point.
Protoss has always had an easier time vs Terran. The main reason for this is that Protoss historically has always had a stronger early game with map control, better vision, and a ton of different tech paths or expansion options to go down while the Terran was in the dark a lot of the time early on. Because of this game dynamic in the match up, Protoss not only gets to dictate the meta more, they also get to take advantage of the typical Terran response to the current meta. This is because it's harder for Terran to scout or do anything about what Protoss decides to do early.
All of the same game dynamics apply to ZvP. Protoss is in the dark more in the early game and Zerg has a ton of paths they can proceed with the game.
A simple example of meta advantage would be when Z started the 973 meta, Protoss got wrecked for a while and had to adapt to the meta being set by the Zerg. Zergs then started taking advantage of Protoss' response to the meta in a variety of ways, including just making 5-6 Hydra and forcing a bunch of cannons / killing the wall and droning behind in order to get ahead. Protoss then has to adapt. If one race is setting the meta more often than the other in a match up, they have an advantage. The only reason this is the case in ZvP and PvT is because of the early game dynamics of army strength, map control, vision, and the amount of viable build order options (as mentioned above).
The main difference in PvZ as of late is that map makers have made 1 gate Zealot openings viable. They weren't before. You see how all these old maps get remade? One feature of all of them is the viability of 1 gate openings and easier walls in general for Protoss' at their naturals. This has allowed for easier early scouting for Protoss through Zealot pressure. It's allowed for Zergs to not get away with so much droning. It's allowed for safer and quicker Stargates and sair vision. It has made the match up a lot easier for Protoss because these dynamics have made it a lot harder for Zergs to dictate the meta and that's why PvZ isn't as hard as it used to be. I think it's great.
At the same time, they're not giving anything to zerg for zvt. Good ASL results have corrupted our map pool and just wish it was a bit easier. It's good that protoss got theirs because zvp had like 55%+ win rate at some point but now it's more balanced but we gotta realllly drop maps like blitz and troy tho
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On April 13 2024 02:31 Shinokuki wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2024 00:57 G5 wrote:
Anyways. To get on point.
Protoss has always had an easier time vs Terran. The main reason for this is that Protoss historically has always had a stronger early game with map control, better vision, and a ton of different tech paths or expansion options to go down while the Terran was in the dark a lot of the time early on. Because of this game dynamic in the match up, Protoss not only gets to dictate the meta more, they also get to take advantage of the typical Terran response to the current meta. This is because it's harder for Terran to scout or do anything about what Protoss decides to do early.
All of the same game dynamics apply to ZvP. Protoss is in the dark more in the early game and Zerg has a ton of paths they can proceed with the game.
A simple example of meta advantage would be when Z started the 973 meta, Protoss got wrecked for a while and had to adapt to the meta being set by the Zerg. Zergs then started taking advantage of Protoss' response to the meta in a variety of ways, including just making 5-6 Hydra and forcing a bunch of cannons / killing the wall and droning behind in order to get ahead. Protoss then has to adapt. If one race is setting the meta more often than the other in a match up, they have an advantage. The only reason this is the case in ZvP and PvT is because of the early game dynamics of army strength, map control, vision, and the amount of viable build order options (as mentioned above).
The main difference in PvZ as of late is that map makers have made 1 gate Zealot openings viable. They weren't before. You see how all these old maps get remade? One feature of all of them is the viability of 1 gate openings and easier walls in general for Protoss' at their naturals. This has allowed for easier early scouting for Protoss through Zealot pressure. It's allowed for Zergs to not get away with so much droning. It's allowed for safer and quicker Stargates and sair vision. It has made the match up a lot easier for Protoss because these dynamics have made it a lot harder for Zergs to dictate the meta and that's why PvZ isn't as hard as it used to be. I think it's great. At the same time, they're not giving anything to zerg for zvt. Good ASL results have corrupted our map pool and just wish it was a bit easier. It's good that protoss got theirs because zvp had like 55%+ win rate at some point but now it's more balanced but we gotta realllly drop maps like blitz and troy tho
Yeah, I agree with that. A good ZvT map truly seems like one where a third can be another main with a ramp and where you can easily get a 4th secured once defilers are out. There's other things like a nat being easy for Mutas to attack etc. but an easily defendable third with one entrance and a close 4th seems the recipe for a good ZvT map (since getting to 4 gas seems the ultimate goal for Z in standard play). I look at some of these maps and truly just scratch my head as to where Zergs are supposed to take a third or fourth against Terran. Then again, I don't really play the match up, so 🤷
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On April 12 2024 18:45 Comedy wrote:
One thing is clear as day : Sziky has far better mechanics than dewalt and bonyth. But they play protoss, yet you have people like g5 claiming zerg has such an easy time vs protoss, because he himself has never been able to play the matchup.
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LOL WTF nobody is able to play the match up, even bisu dies to 2300 zergs doin hidra busts in ladder... dont cap on me
, yall know that zerg has dominated protoss since julyzerg at least that i remember...
any metric is zerg favored, ladder games, pro games, finals, semi finals, # of finals... for protoss to compete there has to be a very good map or two in the map pool.
On April 13 2024 00:36 Comedy wrote:
Protoss wins more at foreign level when players are equally skilled.
dafuq has this to do with the fact that zerg is overpowered vs protoss... is like saying african 2100 elo chess players meta makes it so that they win more with black... that shit is irrelevant.
in fact when i read your example i think that they were not equally skilled, if protoss won vs zerg final, protoss was higher skilled player...so good for them winning pvz, im with you brothers~~~~
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On April 12 2024 23:19 RJBTV wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2024 22:00 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
So by that definition Soulkey is a genius in your book ? he is the progamer that play the less. He spend weeks with rain grinding league of legends or just taking day off all the time ( he surely is a genius and his wins have nothing to do with balance right ? ). The thing is that what tells you in those stats that you show about pvz those zergs are not genuises ? How do you know how much a person plays or not ? The amount of time soulkey takes off is greatly overestimated. But yes he is a natural talent on the level of understanding and multitasking. His micro is not much better and some of his mechanics are inferior to most pro zergs. Foreign zergs need to have more access to korean zergs and their thinking. also stats become more unreliable the smaller the sample size becomes because individual player variance affects outcmes
Now I gotta ask: with awfull translates that I have been gathering from his streams the problems of zvp are more of protoss coming upp with multiple new angles (optimized gateway first, +1 armor timing, fast third nexus) over time and gaining advance over zerg (and with Soma gone too). As a spectator the most punishing plays like 3 hatch hydra, 973 and Somas strange fast spire timings seem to be almost nonexisting nowdays. I just wonder how come that after wining one ASL we are getting some maps that are truly bad for zvp when the best online player for whole year is protoss who has quite good record against zergs.
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For a while now, I felt that sim city at 3rds was way too easy for zergs. This changed recently.
Maybe they went too far with the latest more open maps, and there is some middle ground...maybe spots to hide zealots are too much.
But high ground small ramp 3rds, or tiny choke 3rds have to go.
That being said, ZvP getting more even shouldn't be a problem. ZvT being ass, should be.
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On April 13 2024 04:12 whaski wrote:
I just wonder how come that after wining one ASL we are getting some maps that are truly bad for zvp when the best online player for whole year is protoss who has quite good record against zergs.
Because offline != online, but for some reason online mappools are based on offline mappools. See some posts on the first page of in this thread.
From Snow's perspective it would be rational to intentionally underperform in ASL in order to skew mappools towards protoss and then (continue to) dominate in proleague/streams which is where the money is
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On April 13 2024 18:09 sophisticated wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2024 04:12 whaski wrote:
I just wonder how come that after wining one ASL we are getting some maps that are truly bad for zvp when the best online player for whole year is protoss who has quite good record against zergs.
Because offline != online, but for some reason online mappools are based on offline mappools. See some posts on the first page of in this thread. From Snow's perspective it would be rational to intentionally underperform in ASL in order to skew mappools towards protoss and then (continue to) dominate in proleague/streams which is where the money is
winning an ASL will improve Snows popularity, which will increase his donation revenue and ad revenue. if he gets more viewers he will generate larger contributions to PL prizepools. But he will also get more sponsor matches and more random donations. ASL is a way to grow viewership.
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Man i love Jaedong's reaction as the zealot swipes at the poor defenceless drones in the mneral line. True pain for the Overmind.
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I don't know which is worse... Current state of ZvP or current state of JD in ASL. Almost makes me wish he had a scandal earlier and disappeared at a better stage rather than petering out. Or just stuck with sc2 and never came back. sad ;(
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This graph very well explains the bitching on both sides about match up imbalance. The reason zergs go all in is because zergs are glass cannon - even minor early game disruption (losing a drone, getting hath blocked etc.) feels like instant lose in mid game, therefore zergs go all in. This is also reflected in Jaedong point - you would love to play a normal game as zerg but it just not worth going into an even/slightly behind mid game vs P. To make a point different, if you take away early game Z bullshit (mass lings, hydra busts, muta all ins), zerg win ratio vs P would be probably below 40% on most of the maps. This is the mindset that zergs have to work very often - don't think about how to make an iterative advantage but how to close the game. Similar with mid/late game TvZ, where T gets vessels//drops and can attack in 2-3 places at the same times, many zergs prefer to all in prior to that stage as it is very difficult to hold, even with overall advantage. All in all, 3 different races with different play/strategic concepts. People should realize that and respect each other more. 
Edit: This post is not to undermine the power of zerg or to say that protoss has it easy. Races have their own struggles and try to overcome them in most efficient way. P users complain about zerg all ins, while zerg users complain about protoss snowballing and inability to catch up even after small mistakes, as then mid game advantage for P hits.
![[image loading]](https://i.ibb.co/Qb40CXm/racial-win-rate-vs-time-pvz-selectioncomparison-MMR-Groups.png)
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On April 13 2024 20:26 kogeT wrote:This graph very well explains the bitching on both sides about match up imbalance. The reason zergs go all in is because zergs are glass cannon - even minor early game disruption (losing a drone, getting hath blocked etc.) feels like instant lose in mid game, therefore zergs go all in. This is also reflected in Jaedong point - you would love to play a normal game as zerg but it just not worth going into an even/slightly behind game mid game vs P. To make a point different, if you take away early game Z bullshit (mass lings, hydra busts, muta all ins), zerg win ratio vs P would be probably below 40% on most of the maps. This is the mindset that zergs have to work very often - don't think about how to make an iterative advantage but how to close the game. Somehow with mid/late game TvZ, where T gets vessels/tanks and can attack in 2-3 places at the same times, many zergs prefer to all in prior to that stage as it is very difficult to hold, even with overall advantage. All in all, 3 different races with different play/strategic concepts. People should realize that and respect each other more.
Big respect for this post because this hits it exactly in the right spot. All about them power spikes. For example The entire League of Legends pro meta strategy is built around power spikes. In the chart you can read all the power spikes for both zerg and protoss and how important these spikes for each race are. That toss winrate spike at 10:30 to 14:30 says everything you need to know about WHY zerg plays the way it does.
edit: yellow on white is such a pain to see
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Good post KogeT. I'm pretty sure that data set also includes 973's heyday which amplifies this even more.
SK vs Bisu in ASL is also a great representation of this - Bisu got ahead too far, but SK cancelled his macro hatch and put down a dual den which gave him just barely enough time to find an effective window and take that W. Using his muta pressure he prevented scouting to obfuscate his off-beat bust. He knew it wasn't worth trying to stretch a game which's outcome was pretty much set already.
Taking that Protoss generally is getting increasingly better at applying different ways of pressure and getting better reads, at least at higher levels of play, is pretty much why higher level zergs in this thread are saying there is no advantage.
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On April 12 2024 22:00 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
So by that definition Soulkey is a genius in your book ? he is the progamer that play the less. He spend weeks with rain grinding league of legends or just taking day off all the time ( he surely is a genius and his wins have nothing to do with balance right ? ). The thing is that what tells you in those stats that you show about pvz those zergs are not genuises ? How do you know how much a person plays or not ?
You seem to be too concerned about my comment about Bonyth being a genius? I think he streams one or two times a week, at most? And most of the times he has to wait forever to get a game because at his mmr he can't find foreign opponents and has to wait to be matched with a Korean who will instantly leave or accept to play at a terrible TR. That's all the practice at "high level" he can get as far as I know, unless he practices offstream like a mad man (but with whom?). You notice I didn't say Dewalt is a genius? It's just my opinion about one player in particular.
So I don't really know how to answer your question about those Zergs not being geniuses because that's not what I implied. Some of them probably are. Soulkey probably is, given he and Rain are champions in both SC1 and SC2. But keep in mind that despite what they're doing now as streamers, they all sat their asses off in teamhouses 15 years ago playing Starcraft at least 12 hours a day, with coaches and high level practice partners.
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On April 13 2024 23:28 Smorrie wrote:
Good post KogeT. I'm pretty sure that data set also includes 973's heyday which amplifies this even more.
SK vs Bisu in ASL is also a great representation of this - Bisu got ahead too far, but SK cancelled his macro hatch and put down a dual den which gave him just barely enough time to find an effective window and take that W. Using his muta pressure he prevented scouting to obfuscate his off-beat bust. He knew it wasn't worth trying to stretch a game which's outcome was pretty much set already.
Taking that Protoss generally is getting increasingly better at applying different ways of pressure and getting better reads, at least at higher levels of play, is pretty much why higher level zergs in this thread are saying there is no advantage.
Yea that was such a genius play from SK but to newer fan might just look like a standard hydra bust. I love how freaking deep the pros have taken the meta in BW.
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EPT
