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On April 10 2024 16:49 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
Is actually criminal what they did to sylphid. I remember it was one of the most fun maps and in my book it was a top 3 map ever. Then they made changes that allowed protoss to put zealots in imba gaps. Made gaz changes that destroyed zerg vs terran.
Dark origin is decent for zerg vs protoss but the gameplay is very stale. If protoss takes top right expo or bottom left you already know the result. Retro is very stale aswell. I wonder why Good night or Largo/Allegro was took out so fast from rotation. Imo it was a fun map to play compared to the ones of Escalade. RInging Bloom. Shakuras temple . Optimizer . I really hope next maps will not be as hard as the ones we are playing now that walling is really difficult.
Bro you just named the 3 most ZvP imba maps (among the standard ones) in the modern era in Goodnight (66%), Largo (63%) and Allegro (59%). No wonder why you think they are fun. Fun for Zerg for sure. Sylphid before the changes had a win rate close to 60% for Zerg as well, only after it became Neo Sylphid that ZvP is balanced, but ZvT is still shit though (this I do feel for you).
This feels like Artosis saying Vermeer is one of the best maps out there (59% TvZ and 56% TvP without Flash playing a game). Clearly shows Hero and Mini had no clues when they were working with Rush and the mapmaker to create that one lmao.
Fun fact: after the creation of Vermeer, Terran won 3 straight ASLs with 5 players in 3 finals. But Rush the contributor to the map himself took none of those titles.
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On April 10 2024 15:16 TMNT wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2024 10:28 Shinokuki wrote:On April 10 2024 09:53 TMNT wrote:On April 10 2024 07:54 Shinokuki wrote:
Many foreigners would be so dumbfounded by this as they've always been stating ZVP is imba, but they don't know how bad zvp has been on major proleagues, non asl tourneys, and sponmatches. This all started when Sylphid got nerf'd and map makers kept giving buffs to protoss because of how well zergs have been doing on ASL. Unfortunately, ASL has such a small sample size of what ZvP landscape is like nowadays and it is rather frustrating that ASL Map pools are still dictating online events which are the major source of income for all progamers. ASL is just for prestige at this point.
I heard something interesting yesterday from hero and he basically stated that zerg has to cheese and do a lot of killer timing attack to be able to hold a decent win rate vs P. If Z does not do that and wants to go standard vs P, Z will be behind nowadays. But how to do these killer timing moves when map makers give insane simcity wall for protoss and close to no chokepoints for zergs? Oh come on. I'm running the Proleague thread myself. It's only recently. And compounded by Soma going to the military. Yes Troy and Blitz are bad for ZvP but these maps will 100% not stay for next season. Meanwhile Retro and NDO which are slightly Zerg favored have been there for 3 seasons? This is like the first Protoss favored map pool since the Sparkle season (may explain the first time they have 4 players in Ro8 since) ? And Zerg, I mean Soulkey lol, has only been doing well since last season. How long had we used Eclipse, Sylphid, Polypoid and Vermeer? Like, forever. Largo and Allegro (aka Protoss graveyard) were used for 3 seasons. Arkanoid that Hero said it himself was a free win for Zerg. Heartbreak Ridge anyone? By the way what's the problem with Citadel in ZvP. The win rate is close to 50% and I don't see any features too bad for Zerg. In fact looks pretty nasty for a Lurker contain. Citadel is 47% win rate for zvp. Sylphid is not good for ZvP. Retro is good for ZvP yes but that's negated by abysmal 40% win rate for ZvT. NDO seems to be the only "balanced" map which is why it's there for many seasons now. It's a pretty 50% win rate for zvt and zvp. Vermeer is 41% zvt while having 52% zvp.. So those maps weren't even good for zergs overall. I give you largo and allegro but those were quickly taken out after one season. Also, I don't like to emphasize ASL that much. You know well that major proleagues, sponmatches, and other events are 95% of player's income and for months zergs have been underperforming compared to P/T. Largo was used once and they modified it into Allegro then used it for 2 more seasons. Allegro is the one of the most played map (9th, since eloboard was created) in the modern era. I have been crying for years that ZvT win rates are terrible on most of the maps, with some of the most played maps being close to 60% for Terran, but Zerg crying about ZvP too is weird. Historically Protoss has always had only the weird ass maps where they can enjoy a significant positive win rate against Zerg. Here's ZvP win rate on modern maps registered by eloboard, ordered by number of games decreasing: Polypoid 53% Vermeer 52.7% Retro 52.9% Eclipse 52.7% Fighting Spirit 53.8% Allegro 59.1% (66k games on these first 6 maps)Ascension 52.2% Nemesis 52.1% La Campanella 54.7% Dark Origin 59.8% Largo 63.4% Heartbreak Ridge 52.1% Goodnight 66.5% Odyssey 51.9% Metaverse 56.7% 76 58.3% Neo Arkanoid 57.9% Neo Sylphid 50% Apocalypse 49.9% Neo Dark Origin 50.9% (20k games on these 3 maps)Revolver 43.9% (the most played maps that can be considered Protoss favored in PvZ - 2700 games)Butter 48.8% Invader 48.9% Tempest 48.6% Radeon 48.3% Citadel 47.3% Blitz Y 36.3% Monopoly 47% Troy 41.2% (and honestly, this list of Protoss-favored maps is not that "favored" with most of them being close to 49% for Zerg) Protoss have played like 80k games on maps that can be considered Zerg-favored, while Zerg have played approx 10k games on Protoss-favored, and 20k games are played on somewhat balanced maps. Absurd that now we have two weird ass maps which will 100% not be used next season -they are just the equivalents of 76 or Arkanoid - and Zerg can cry about a change in state of ZvP.
Is there any way to see FS/RETRO/POLY stats for "recent" 1000 games? I feel zvp got harder since 2023. Also, my argument wasn't that it was always P favored but more like it started to tilt towards P recently while zvt being still way too hard for z pros. My concern is also more about the fact that there are two zergs in semi finals and that this may continue the trend of giving P good maps which will hurt Z.
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On April 10 2024 15:16 TMNT wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2024 10:28 Shinokuki wrote:On April 10 2024 09:53 TMNT wrote:On April 10 2024 07:54 Shinokuki wrote:
Many foreigners would be so dumbfounded by this as they've always been stating ZVP is imba, but they don't know how bad zvp has been on major proleagues, non asl tourneys, and sponmatches. This all started when Sylphid got nerf'd and map makers kept giving buffs to protoss because of how well zergs have been doing on ASL. Unfortunately, ASL has such a small sample size of what ZvP landscape is like nowadays and it is rather frustrating that ASL Map pools are still dictating online events which are the major source of income for all progamers. ASL is just for prestige at this point.
I heard something interesting yesterday from hero and he basically stated that zerg has to cheese and do a lot of killer timing attack to be able to hold a decent win rate vs P. If Z does not do that and wants to go standard vs P, Z will be behind nowadays. But how to do these killer timing moves when map makers give insane simcity wall for protoss and close to no chokepoints for zergs? Oh come on. I'm running the Proleague thread myself. It's only recently. And compounded by Soma going to the military. Yes Troy and Blitz are bad for ZvP but these maps will 100% not stay for next season. Meanwhile Retro and NDO which are slightly Zerg favored have been there for 3 seasons? This is like the first Protoss favored map pool since the Sparkle season (may explain the first time they have 4 players in Ro8 since) ? And Zerg, I mean Soulkey lol, has only been doing well since last season. How long had we used Eclipse, Sylphid, Polypoid and Vermeer? Like, forever. Largo and Allegro (aka Protoss graveyard) were used for 3 seasons. Arkanoid that Hero said it himself was a free win for Zerg. Heartbreak Ridge anyone? By the way what's the problem with Citadel in ZvP. The win rate is close to 50% and I don't see any features too bad for Zerg. In fact looks pretty nasty for a Lurker contain. Citadel is 47% win rate for zvp. Sylphid is not good for ZvP. Retro is good for ZvP yes but that's negated by abysmal 40% win rate for ZvT. NDO seems to be the only "balanced" map which is why it's there for many seasons now. It's a pretty 50% win rate for zvt and zvp. Vermeer is 41% zvt while having 52% zvp.. So those maps weren't even good for zergs overall. I give you largo and allegro but those were quickly taken out after one season. Also, I don't like to emphasize ASL that much. You know well that major proleagues, sponmatches, and other events are 95% of player's income and for months zergs have been underperforming compared to P/T. Largo was used once and they modified it into Allegro then used it for 2 more seasons. Allegro is the one of the most played map (9th, since eloboard was created) in the modern era. I have been crying for years that ZvT win rates are terrible on most of the maps, with some of the most played maps being close to 60% for Terran, but Zerg crying about ZvP too is weird. Historically Protoss has always had only the weird ass maps where they can enjoy a significant positive win rate against Zerg. Here's ZvP win rate on modern maps registered by eloboard, ordered by number of games decreasing: Polypoid 53% Vermeer 52.7% Retro 52.9% Eclipse 52.7% Fighting Spirit 53.8% Allegro 59.1% (66k games on these first 6 maps)Ascension 52.2% Nemesis 52.1% La Campanella 54.7% Dark Origin 59.8% Largo 63.4% Heartbreak Ridge 52.1% Goodnight 66.5% Odyssey 51.9% Metaverse 56.7% 76 58.3% Neo Arkanoid 57.9% Neo Sylphid 50% Apocalypse 49.9% Neo Dark Origin 50.9% (20k games on these 3 maps)Revolver 43.9% (the most played maps that can be considered Protoss favored in PvZ - 2700 games)Butter 48.8% Invader 48.9% Tempest 48.6% Radeon 48.3% Citadel 47.3% Blitz Y 36.3% Monopoly 47% Troy 41.2% (and honestly, this list of Protoss-favored maps is not that "favored" with most of them being close to 49% for Zerg) Protoss have played like 80k games on maps that can be considered Zerg-favored, while Zerg have played approx 10k games on Protoss-favored, and 20k games are played on somewhat balanced maps. Absurd that now we have two weird ass maps which will 100% not be used next season -they are just the equivalents of 76 or Arkanoid - and Zerg can cry about a change in state of ZvP.
I don't want to be nitpicking, esp. since you think I'm out on some sort of specific crusade, but not too long ago you were discrediting another poster for using elo to support his point, saying they were unreliable statistics. But now you're out here using elo statistics at your own convenience to support your own argument. Just thought that was only fair to point out.
(I think they're fine to use btw. Just because the benchmarking method is different from ASL or proleague statistics doesn't make them false.)
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Terran tears are super effective against map makers. Sylphid 1.0 was 50% in zvt. Completely balanced. But, Terran players cried and cried and cried about the natural turret positioning until Sylphid was updated to remove this advantage for Z.
Sylphid 1.0 was fair. Terran got a rush distance that allowed stim timing to force 2 sunkens + lings. In return, Zerg got an abuseable natural. The map was balanced, and yet was updated to be imbalanced.
Blitz X same story. Blitz X was a historically slightly Zerg favored map that was added to this map pool, I assume, to help Zerg a little. The original iteration of Blitz Y was fine for Zerg.
Then the Terran crying started. Terrans cried and cried that they couldn't death push through mid like they do on any other map. You see, Blitz X and the original Blitz Y had a single unit choke in mid. This single unit choke was the focal point of the map. The deal was that Blitz as a map gave Zerg an amazing single unit choke in mid, but in return, the rest of the map was horrible for Zerg to defend.
Of course, Blitz Y was updated to stop the Terran crying. Now the mid choke is huge, Terran can death push down mid, and now Zerg never takes the mid-base.
Protoss is benefitting from map updates that are intended to stop Terran players from crying (they never do stop crying). When Blitz Y mid choke was expanded, this was a huge nerf for Z in both ZvT and ZvP. When Sylphid natural was redesigned to stop Terran players from crying, map makers also added more 1 gap spots in that mineral line for Protoss zealots.
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well i dont think so good idea use it these statistics nowadays. we have remaining x progamers idk how much exactly but just example 15z 15t 15p. well how do we know how the 15z players not better than 15p players? or how do we know how the 15p players not better than 15z ? i mean more talanted and etc. or another example how we know when Rain come back from his inactiviti and beat some best zergs whose playing a lot during Rain inactiviti how he is not just a better player than them or race different? or how we know whats happend with Jaedong? or Mini, Snow why good nowadays and why not when Jaedong was? or how we know what are these players familiar status(married,Kid and etc), has company or not has, or he has love or spend times more his friend or etc. well anyone who want to knows what is the balance in sc just play all three races with normal games and can figured out itself :D
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On April 10 2024 23:20 Smorrie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2024 15:16 TMNT wrote:On April 10 2024 10:28 Shinokuki wrote:On April 10 2024 09:53 TMNT wrote:On April 10 2024 07:54 Shinokuki wrote:
Many foreigners would be so dumbfounded by this as they've always been stating ZVP is imba, but they don't know how bad zvp has been on major proleagues, non asl tourneys, and sponmatches. This all started when Sylphid got nerf'd and map makers kept giving buffs to protoss because of how well zergs have been doing on ASL. Unfortunately, ASL has such a small sample size of what ZvP landscape is like nowadays and it is rather frustrating that ASL Map pools are still dictating online events which are the major source of income for all progamers. ASL is just for prestige at this point.
I heard something interesting yesterday from hero and he basically stated that zerg has to cheese and do a lot of killer timing attack to be able to hold a decent win rate vs P. If Z does not do that and wants to go standard vs P, Z will be behind nowadays. But how to do these killer timing moves when map makers give insane simcity wall for protoss and close to no chokepoints for zergs? Oh come on. I'm running the Proleague thread myself. It's only recently. And compounded by Soma going to the military. Yes Troy and Blitz are bad for ZvP but these maps will 100% not stay for next season. Meanwhile Retro and NDO which are slightly Zerg favored have been there for 3 seasons? This is like the first Protoss favored map pool since the Sparkle season (may explain the first time they have 4 players in Ro8 since) ? And Zerg, I mean Soulkey lol, has only been doing well since last season. How long had we used Eclipse, Sylphid, Polypoid and Vermeer? Like, forever. Largo and Allegro (aka Protoss graveyard) were used for 3 seasons. Arkanoid that Hero said it himself was a free win for Zerg. Heartbreak Ridge anyone? By the way what's the problem with Citadel in ZvP. The win rate is close to 50% and I don't see any features too bad for Zerg. In fact looks pretty nasty for a Lurker contain. Citadel is 47% win rate for zvp. Sylphid is not good for ZvP. Retro is good for ZvP yes but that's negated by abysmal 40% win rate for ZvT. NDO seems to be the only "balanced" map which is why it's there for many seasons now. It's a pretty 50% win rate for zvt and zvp. Vermeer is 41% zvt while having 52% zvp.. So those maps weren't even good for zergs overall. I give you largo and allegro but those were quickly taken out after one season. Also, I don't like to emphasize ASL that much. You know well that major proleagues, sponmatches, and other events are 95% of player's income and for months zergs have been underperforming compared to P/T. Largo was used once and they modified it into Allegro then used it for 2 more seasons. Allegro is the one of the most played map (9th, since eloboard was created) in the modern era. I have been crying for years that ZvT win rates are terrible on most of the maps, with some of the most played maps being close to 60% for Terran, but Zerg crying about ZvP too is weird. Historically Protoss has always had only the weird ass maps where they can enjoy a significant positive win rate against Zerg. Here's ZvP win rate on modern maps registered by eloboard, ordered by number of games decreasing: Polypoid 53% Vermeer 52.7% Retro 52.9% Eclipse 52.7% Fighting Spirit 53.8% Allegro 59.1% (66k games on these first 6 maps)Ascension 52.2% Nemesis 52.1% La Campanella 54.7% Dark Origin 59.8% Largo 63.4% Heartbreak Ridge 52.1% Goodnight 66.5% Odyssey 51.9% Metaverse 56.7% 76 58.3% Neo Arkanoid 57.9% Neo Sylphid 50% Apocalypse 49.9% Neo Dark Origin 50.9% (20k games on these 3 maps)Revolver 43.9% (the most played maps that can be considered Protoss favored in PvZ - 2700 games)Butter 48.8% Invader 48.9% Tempest 48.6% Radeon 48.3% Citadel 47.3% Blitz Y 36.3% Monopoly 47% Troy 41.2% (and honestly, this list of Protoss-favored maps is not that "favored" with most of them being close to 49% for Zerg) Protoss have played like 80k games on maps that can be considered Zerg-favored, while Zerg have played approx 10k games on Protoss-favored, and 20k games are played on somewhat balanced maps. Absurd that now we have two weird ass maps which will 100% not be used next season -they are just the equivalents of 76 or Arkanoid - and Zerg can cry about a change in state of ZvP. I don't want to be nitpicking, esp. since you think I'm out on some sort of specific crusade, but not too long ago you were discrediting another poster for using elo to support his point, saying they were unreliable statistics. But now you're out here using elo statistics at your own convenience to support your own argument. Just thought that was only fair to point out. (I think they're fine to use btw. Just because the benchmarking method is different from ASL or proleague statistics doesn't make them false.)
They are not the same thing. This is map win rates accross all games played, ever (registered). The other thing is the elo points of some specific players in a specific month. Honestly I'm a bit annoyed with your ignorance yet arrogance af.
Monthly elo pts are not reliable because of the activity/inactivity of certain players and the "farming" problem. That leads to absurd result like Shinee being in the top 10 players or something similar.
Map win rates are of all times. Even if a certain player deliberately tries to skew the win rate for his race, he can't, simply because he's too small compared to the sample size. History has shown that even Flash can't skew the win rate for Terran.
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On April 10 2024 22:01 TMNT wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2024 16:49 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
Is actually criminal what they did to sylphid. I remember it was one of the most fun maps and in my book it was a top 3 map ever. Then they made changes that allowed protoss to put zealots in imba gaps. Made gaz changes that destroyed zerg vs terran.
Dark origin is decent for zerg vs protoss but the gameplay is very stale. If protoss takes top right expo or bottom left you already know the result. Retro is very stale aswell. I wonder why Good night or Largo/Allegro was took out so fast from rotation. Imo it was a fun map to play compared to the ones of Escalade. RInging Bloom. Shakuras temple . Optimizer . I really hope next maps will not be as hard as the ones we are playing now that walling is really difficult.
Bro you just named the 3 most ZvP imba maps (among the standard ones) in the modern era in Goodnight (66%), Largo (63%) and Allegro (59%). No wonder why you think they are fun. Fun for Zerg for sure. Sylphid before the changes had a win rate close to 60% for Zerg as well, only after it became Neo Sylphid that ZvP is balanced, but ZvT is still shit though (this I do feel for you). This feels like Artosis saying Vermeer is one of the best maps out there (59% TvZ and 56% TvP without Flash playing a game). Clearly shows Hero and Mini had no clues when they were working with Rush and the mapmaker to create that one lmao. Fun fact: after the creation of Vermeer, Terran won 3 straight ASLs with 5 players in 3 finals. But Rush the contributor to the map himself took none of those titles.
Yeah but the thing is they were took out so fast. Didnt really give a fair chance. Those stats are boosted with the 9734 resurgence.Personally playing Vermeer vs terran is not the imbalanced hell stats are showing either. I remember Hero vs Rush in ASL were Hero was beating Rush badly but just didnt put enough defence to transition to defiler and gave Rush a free win. I rather play Vermeer over Polypoid.
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On April 10 2024 23:07 Shinokuki wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2024 15:16 TMNT wrote:On April 10 2024 10:28 Shinokuki wrote:On April 10 2024 09:53 TMNT wrote:On April 10 2024 07:54 Shinokuki wrote:
Many foreigners would be so dumbfounded by this as they've always been stating ZVP is imba, but they don't know how bad zvp has been on major proleagues, non asl tourneys, and sponmatches. This all started when Sylphid got nerf'd and map makers kept giving buffs to protoss because of how well zergs have been doing on ASL. Unfortunately, ASL has such a small sample size of what ZvP landscape is like nowadays and it is rather frustrating that ASL Map pools are still dictating online events which are the major source of income for all progamers. ASL is just for prestige at this point.
I heard something interesting yesterday from hero and he basically stated that zerg has to cheese and do a lot of killer timing attack to be able to hold a decent win rate vs P. If Z does not do that and wants to go standard vs P, Z will be behind nowadays. But how to do these killer timing moves when map makers give insane simcity wall for protoss and close to no chokepoints for zergs? Oh come on. I'm running the Proleague thread myself. It's only recently. And compounded by Soma going to the military. Yes Troy and Blitz are bad for ZvP but these maps will 100% not stay for next season. Meanwhile Retro and NDO which are slightly Zerg favored have been there for 3 seasons? This is like the first Protoss favored map pool since the Sparkle season (may explain the first time they have 4 players in Ro8 since) ? And Zerg, I mean Soulkey lol, has only been doing well since last season. How long had we used Eclipse, Sylphid, Polypoid and Vermeer? Like, forever. Largo and Allegro (aka Protoss graveyard) were used for 3 seasons. Arkanoid that Hero said it himself was a free win for Zerg. Heartbreak Ridge anyone? By the way what's the problem with Citadel in ZvP. The win rate is close to 50% and I don't see any features too bad for Zerg. In fact looks pretty nasty for a Lurker contain. Citadel is 47% win rate for zvp. Sylphid is not good for ZvP. Retro is good for ZvP yes but that's negated by abysmal 40% win rate for ZvT. NDO seems to be the only "balanced" map which is why it's there for many seasons now. It's a pretty 50% win rate for zvt and zvp. Vermeer is 41% zvt while having 52% zvp.. So those maps weren't even good for zergs overall. I give you largo and allegro but those were quickly taken out after one season. Also, I don't like to emphasize ASL that much. You know well that major proleagues, sponmatches, and other events are 95% of player's income and for months zergs have been underperforming compared to P/T. Largo was used once and they modified it into Allegro then used it for 2 more seasons. Allegro is the one of the most played map (9th, since eloboard was created) in the modern era. I have been crying for years that ZvT win rates are terrible on most of the maps, with some of the most played maps being close to 60% for Terran, but Zerg crying about ZvP too is weird. Historically Protoss has always had only the weird ass maps where they can enjoy a significant positive win rate against Zerg. Here's ZvP win rate on modern maps registered by eloboard, ordered by number of games decreasing: Polypoid 53% Vermeer 52.7% Retro 52.9% Eclipse 52.7% Fighting Spirit 53.8% Allegro 59.1% (66k games on these first 6 maps)Ascension 52.2% Nemesis 52.1% La Campanella 54.7% Dark Origin 59.8% Largo 63.4% Heartbreak Ridge 52.1% Goodnight 66.5% Odyssey 51.9% Metaverse 56.7% 76 58.3% Neo Arkanoid 57.9% Neo Sylphid 50% Apocalypse 49.9% Neo Dark Origin 50.9% (20k games on these 3 maps)Revolver 43.9% (the most played maps that can be considered Protoss favored in PvZ - 2700 games)Butter 48.8% Invader 48.9% Tempest 48.6% Radeon 48.3% Citadel 47.3% Blitz Y 36.3% Monopoly 47% Troy 41.2% (and honestly, this list of Protoss-favored maps is not that "favored" with most of them being close to 49% for Zerg) Protoss have played like 80k games on maps that can be considered Zerg-favored, while Zerg have played approx 10k games on Protoss-favored, and 20k games are played on somewhat balanced maps. Absurd that now we have two weird ass maps which will 100% not be used next season -they are just the equivalents of 76 or Arkanoid - and Zerg can cry about a change in state of ZvP. Is there any way to see FS/RETRO/POLY stats for "recent" 1000 games? I feel zvp got harder since 2023. Also, my argument wasn't that it was always P favored but more like it started to tilt towards P recently while zvt being still way too hard for z pros. My concern is also more about the fact that there are two zergs in semi finals and that this may continue the trend of giving P good maps which will hurt Z.
There is a way, but if you are not a programer or something like that, you have to work with excel a little bit. I might try later. As for your concern that is a valid one. This recent map pool certainly helps P in PvZ. But the downward trend of Zerg since 2023 has more to do with the decline in form of Queen and Hero (online at least - if you see my monthly summary they were more often than not at the bottom of the Proleague table), and now the huge blow of losing Soma to military service (imagine Snow and Light had to go away for Protoss and Terran).
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On April 11 2024 01:00 TMNT wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2024 23:20 Smorrie wrote:On April 10 2024 15:16 TMNT wrote:On April 10 2024 10:28 Shinokuki wrote:On April 10 2024 09:53 TMNT wrote:On April 10 2024 07:54 Shinokuki wrote:
Many foreigners would be so dumbfounded by this as they've always been stating ZVP is imba, but they don't know how bad zvp has been on major proleagues, non asl tourneys, and sponmatches. This all started when Sylphid got nerf'd and map makers kept giving buffs to protoss because of how well zergs have been doing on ASL. Unfortunately, ASL has such a small sample size of what ZvP landscape is like nowadays and it is rather frustrating that ASL Map pools are still dictating online events which are the major source of income for all progamers. ASL is just for prestige at this point.
I heard something interesting yesterday from hero and he basically stated that zerg has to cheese and do a lot of killer timing attack to be able to hold a decent win rate vs P. If Z does not do that and wants to go standard vs P, Z will be behind nowadays. But how to do these killer timing moves when map makers give insane simcity wall for protoss and close to no chokepoints for zergs? Oh come on. I'm running the Proleague thread myself. It's only recently. And compounded by Soma going to the military. Yes Troy and Blitz are bad for ZvP but these maps will 100% not stay for next season. Meanwhile Retro and NDO which are slightly Zerg favored have been there for 3 seasons? This is like the first Protoss favored map pool since the Sparkle season (may explain the first time they have 4 players in Ro8 since) ? And Zerg, I mean Soulkey lol, has only been doing well since last season. How long had we used Eclipse, Sylphid, Polypoid and Vermeer? Like, forever. Largo and Allegro (aka Protoss graveyard) were used for 3 seasons. Arkanoid that Hero said it himself was a free win for Zerg. Heartbreak Ridge anyone? By the way what's the problem with Citadel in ZvP. The win rate is close to 50% and I don't see any features too bad for Zerg. In fact looks pretty nasty for a Lurker contain. Citadel is 47% win rate for zvp. Sylphid is not good for ZvP. Retro is good for ZvP yes but that's negated by abysmal 40% win rate for ZvT. NDO seems to be the only "balanced" map which is why it's there for many seasons now. It's a pretty 50% win rate for zvt and zvp. Vermeer is 41% zvt while having 52% zvp.. So those maps weren't even good for zergs overall. I give you largo and allegro but those were quickly taken out after one season. Also, I don't like to emphasize ASL that much. You know well that major proleagues, sponmatches, and other events are 95% of player's income and for months zergs have been underperforming compared to P/T. Largo was used once and they modified it into Allegro then used it for 2 more seasons. Allegro is the one of the most played map (9th, since eloboard was created) in the modern era. I have been crying for years that ZvT win rates are terrible on most of the maps, with some of the most played maps being close to 60% for Terran, but Zerg crying about ZvP too is weird. Historically Protoss has always had only the weird ass maps where they can enjoy a significant positive win rate against Zerg. Here's ZvP win rate on modern maps registered by eloboard, ordered by number of games decreasing: Polypoid 53% Vermeer 52.7% Retro 52.9% Eclipse 52.7% Fighting Spirit 53.8% Allegro 59.1% (66k games on these first 6 maps)Ascension 52.2% Nemesis 52.1% La Campanella 54.7% Dark Origin 59.8% Largo 63.4% Heartbreak Ridge 52.1% Goodnight 66.5% Odyssey 51.9% Metaverse 56.7% 76 58.3% Neo Arkanoid 57.9% Neo Sylphid 50% Apocalypse 49.9% Neo Dark Origin 50.9% (20k games on these 3 maps)Revolver 43.9% (the most played maps that can be considered Protoss favored in PvZ - 2700 games)Butter 48.8% Invader 48.9% Tempest 48.6% Radeon 48.3% Citadel 47.3% Blitz Y 36.3% Monopoly 47% Troy 41.2% (and honestly, this list of Protoss-favored maps is not that "favored" with most of them being close to 49% for Zerg) Protoss have played like 80k games on maps that can be considered Zerg-favored, while Zerg have played approx 10k games on Protoss-favored, and 20k games are played on somewhat balanced maps. Absurd that now we have two weird ass maps which will 100% not be used next season -they are just the equivalents of 76 or Arkanoid - and Zerg can cry about a change in state of ZvP. I don't want to be nitpicking, esp. since you think I'm out on some sort of specific crusade, but not too long ago you were discrediting another poster for using elo to support his point, saying they were unreliable statistics. But now you're out here using elo statistics at your own convenience to support your own argument. Just thought that was only fair to point out. (I think they're fine to use btw. Just because the benchmarking method is different from ASL or proleague statistics doesn't make them false.) They are not the same thing. This is map win rates accross all games played, ever (registered). The other thing is the elo points of some specific players in a specific month. Honestly I'm a bit annoyed with your ignorance yet arrogance af.
You are selectively using statistics to support your claims, it's tiring. Why are these statistics suddenly valid now, while you considered the data set that these stats have been gathered from unreliable otherwise? What changed? People farming elo vs lower rated players are suddenly not obfuscating the data anymore? Does the fact that these are played through different eras not matter in a discussion about current day balance? You pretend to uphold some sort of statistical integrity, yet you cherry pick data to back your claims all the time. This was just recently pointed out to you as well, and you went off the rails as well. Ignorance you say?
The more you've been posting, the more you've been facing pushback from various other posters that have become annoyed by your arrogance and your condescending act. If you were always right and insightful this would be less of a problem, but your inconsistency and your personal quest to constantly try to 'outdo' others posters on TL.net, scavenging for any stat that might make your point seem valid, makes it a recurring sigh of frustration every time you're out there trying to score internet points.
It is evident that you have a lot of knowledge about events and games played, while simultaneously also having a limited conceptual understanding as your ideas commonly align with below B level expectations. Everyone's free to post their opinions but you don't have to push your misguided opinion onto everyone else. Whenever this is pointed out you lose the plot again. Talking about annoyance.
It's nice that you take the time and effort to post these results and schedules - it's definitely convenient when tuning into proleague and trying to get a hold of what's going on. Consider focusing on the groundwork while letting others draw their own conclusions - plays to everyone's strengths better.
As long as you are posting with this attitude you should be ready to get challenged as well, especially when you are being inconsistent or just plainly wrong. You're not special, you're just another poster, just like everyone else.
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United States2917 Posts
ZvP has gotten a lot easier for Protoss over the past few years. Mostly due to map makers allowing for gate expands and more defendable naturals than maps in the past. It allows Protoss to get into the mid game (where they're strong) much easier and with less of a dissadvantage.
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On April 11 2024 02:28 Smorrie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2024 01:00 TMNT wrote:On April 10 2024 23:20 Smorrie wrote:On April 10 2024 15:16 TMNT wrote:On April 10 2024 10:28 Shinokuki wrote:On April 10 2024 09:53 TMNT wrote:On April 10 2024 07:54 Shinokuki wrote:
Many foreigners would be so dumbfounded by this as they've always been stating ZVP is imba, but they don't know how bad zvp has been on major proleagues, non asl tourneys, and sponmatches. This all started when Sylphid got nerf'd and map makers kept giving buffs to protoss because of how well zergs have been doing on ASL. Unfortunately, ASL has such a small sample size of what ZvP landscape is like nowadays and it is rather frustrating that ASL Map pools are still dictating online events which are the major source of income for all progamers. ASL is just for prestige at this point.
I heard something interesting yesterday from hero and he basically stated that zerg has to cheese and do a lot of killer timing attack to be able to hold a decent win rate vs P. If Z does not do that and wants to go standard vs P, Z will be behind nowadays. But how to do these killer timing moves when map makers give insane simcity wall for protoss and close to no chokepoints for zergs? Oh come on. I'm running the Proleague thread myself. It's only recently. And compounded by Soma going to the military. Yes Troy and Blitz are bad for ZvP but these maps will 100% not stay for next season. Meanwhile Retro and NDO which are slightly Zerg favored have been there for 3 seasons? This is like the first Protoss favored map pool since the Sparkle season (may explain the first time they have 4 players in Ro8 since) ? And Zerg, I mean Soulkey lol, has only been doing well since last season. How long had we used Eclipse, Sylphid, Polypoid and Vermeer? Like, forever. Largo and Allegro (aka Protoss graveyard) were used for 3 seasons. Arkanoid that Hero said it himself was a free win for Zerg. Heartbreak Ridge anyone? By the way what's the problem with Citadel in ZvP. The win rate is close to 50% and I don't see any features too bad for Zerg. In fact looks pretty nasty for a Lurker contain. Citadel is 47% win rate for zvp. Sylphid is not good for ZvP. Retro is good for ZvP yes but that's negated by abysmal 40% win rate for ZvT. NDO seems to be the only "balanced" map which is why it's there for many seasons now. It's a pretty 50% win rate for zvt and zvp. Vermeer is 41% zvt while having 52% zvp.. So those maps weren't even good for zergs overall. I give you largo and allegro but those were quickly taken out after one season. Also, I don't like to emphasize ASL that much. You know well that major proleagues, sponmatches, and other events are 95% of player's income and for months zergs have been underperforming compared to P/T. Largo was used once and they modified it into Allegro then used it for 2 more seasons. Allegro is the one of the most played map (9th, since eloboard was created) in the modern era. I have been crying for years that ZvT win rates are terrible on most of the maps, with some of the most played maps being close to 60% for Terran, but Zerg crying about ZvP too is weird. Historically Protoss has always had only the weird ass maps where they can enjoy a significant positive win rate against Zerg. Here's ZvP win rate on modern maps registered by eloboard, ordered by number of games decreasing: Polypoid 53% Vermeer 52.7% Retro 52.9% Eclipse 52.7% Fighting Spirit 53.8% Allegro 59.1% (66k games on these first 6 maps)Ascension 52.2% Nemesis 52.1% La Campanella 54.7% Dark Origin 59.8% Largo 63.4% Heartbreak Ridge 52.1% Goodnight 66.5% Odyssey 51.9% Metaverse 56.7% 76 58.3% Neo Arkanoid 57.9% Neo Sylphid 50% Apocalypse 49.9% Neo Dark Origin 50.9% (20k games on these 3 maps)Revolver 43.9% (the most played maps that can be considered Protoss favored in PvZ - 2700 games)Butter 48.8% Invader 48.9% Tempest 48.6% Radeon 48.3% Citadel 47.3% Blitz Y 36.3% Monopoly 47% Troy 41.2% (and honestly, this list of Protoss-favored maps is not that "favored" with most of them being close to 49% for Zerg) Protoss have played like 80k games on maps that can be considered Zerg-favored, while Zerg have played approx 10k games on Protoss-favored, and 20k games are played on somewhat balanced maps. Absurd that now we have two weird ass maps which will 100% not be used next season -they are just the equivalents of 76 or Arkanoid - and Zerg can cry about a change in state of ZvP. I don't want to be nitpicking, esp. since you think I'm out on some sort of specific crusade, but not too long ago you were discrediting another poster for using elo to support his point, saying they were unreliable statistics. But now you're out here using elo statistics at your own convenience to support your own argument. Just thought that was only fair to point out. (I think they're fine to use btw. Just because the benchmarking method is different from ASL or proleague statistics doesn't make them false.) They are not the same thing. This is map win rates accross all games played, ever (registered). The other thing is the elo points of some specific players in a specific month. Honestly I'm a bit annoyed with your ignorance yet arrogance af. You are selectively using statistics to support your claims, it's tiring. Why are these statistics suddenly valid now, while you considered the data set that these stats have been gathered from unreliable otherwise? What changed? People farming elo vs lower rated players are suddenly not obfuscating the data anymore? Does the fact that these are played through different eras not matter in a discussion about current day balance? You pretend to uphold some sort of statistical integrity, yet you cherry pick data to back your claims all the time. This was just recently pointed out to you as well, and you went off the rails as well. Ignorance you say? The more you've been posting, the more you've been facing pushback from various other posters that have become annoyed by your arrogance and your condescending act. If you were always right and insightful this would be less of a problem, but your inconsistency and your personal quest to constantly try to 'outdo' others posters on TL.net, scavenging for any stat that might make your point seem valid, makes it a recurring sigh of frustration every time you're out there trying to score internet points. It is evident that you have a lot of knowledge about events and games played, while simultaneously also having a limited conceptual understanding as your ideas commonly align with below B level expectations. Everyone's free to post their opinions but you don't have to push your misguided opinion onto everyone else. Whenever this is pointed out you lose the plot again. Talking about annoyance. It's nice that you take the time and effort to post these results and schedules - it's definitely convenient when tuning into proleague and trying to get a hold of what's going on. Consider focusing on the groundwork while letting others draw their own conclusions - plays to everyone's strengths better. As long as you are posting with this attitude you should be ready to get challenged as well, especially when you are being inconsistent or just plainly wrong. You're not special, you're just another poster, just like everyone else.
You are sick in your head, spending that many words just to talk about another poster.
Let me point out your hypocrisy, or should I say, dick move, first: while everyone in this thread was just talking about maps and balance, you made a post just to point out what you think is my double standard, citing something I said 2 weeks ago to another poster (not even to you lol). A normal poster, who is on topic, would just agree or disagree with those map stats and elaborate on why he thinks so (see Sziky post above for example). But the main purpose of your post is solely to pick on me. You joined the thread not to discuss the topic, but to discuss about me. There's clearly a degree of obssession towards me. No wonder why I think that cheeseguy with 5/10 of his posts just to flame me is your clone.
More on your posts later.
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On April 11 2024 04:33 TMNT wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2024 02:28 Smorrie wrote:On April 11 2024 01:00 TMNT wrote:On April 10 2024 23:20 Smorrie wrote:On April 10 2024 15:16 TMNT wrote:On April 10 2024 10:28 Shinokuki wrote:On April 10 2024 09:53 TMNT wrote:On April 10 2024 07:54 Shinokuki wrote:
Many foreigners would be so dumbfounded by this as they've always been stating ZVP is imba, but they don't know how bad zvp has been on major proleagues, non asl tourneys, and sponmatches. This all started when Sylphid got nerf'd and map makers kept giving buffs to protoss because of how well zergs have been doing on ASL. Unfortunately, ASL has such a small sample size of what ZvP landscape is like nowadays and it is rather frustrating that ASL Map pools are still dictating online events which are the major source of income for all progamers. ASL is just for prestige at this point.
I heard something interesting yesterday from hero and he basically stated that zerg has to cheese and do a lot of killer timing attack to be able to hold a decent win rate vs P. If Z does not do that and wants to go standard vs P, Z will be behind nowadays. But how to do these killer timing moves when map makers give insane simcity wall for protoss and close to no chokepoints for zergs? Oh come on. I'm running the Proleague thread myself. It's only recently. And compounded by Soma going to the military. Yes Troy and Blitz are bad for ZvP but these maps will 100% not stay for next season. Meanwhile Retro and NDO which are slightly Zerg favored have been there for 3 seasons? This is like the first Protoss favored map pool since the Sparkle season (may explain the first time they have 4 players in Ro8 since) ? And Zerg, I mean Soulkey lol, has only been doing well since last season. How long had we used Eclipse, Sylphid, Polypoid and Vermeer? Like, forever. Largo and Allegro (aka Protoss graveyard) were used for 3 seasons. Arkanoid that Hero said it himself was a free win for Zerg. Heartbreak Ridge anyone? By the way what's the problem with Citadel in ZvP. The win rate is close to 50% and I don't see any features too bad for Zerg. In fact looks pretty nasty for a Lurker contain. Citadel is 47% win rate for zvp. Sylphid is not good for ZvP. Retro is good for ZvP yes but that's negated by abysmal 40% win rate for ZvT. NDO seems to be the only "balanced" map which is why it's there for many seasons now. It's a pretty 50% win rate for zvt and zvp. Vermeer is 41% zvt while having 52% zvp.. So those maps weren't even good for zergs overall. I give you largo and allegro but those were quickly taken out after one season. Also, I don't like to emphasize ASL that much. You know well that major proleagues, sponmatches, and other events are 95% of player's income and for months zergs have been underperforming compared to P/T. Largo was used once and they modified it into Allegro then used it for 2 more seasons. Allegro is the one of the most played map (9th, since eloboard was created) in the modern era. I have been crying for years that ZvT win rates are terrible on most of the maps, with some of the most played maps being close to 60% for Terran, but Zerg crying about ZvP too is weird. Historically Protoss has always had only the weird ass maps where they can enjoy a significant positive win rate against Zerg. Here's ZvP win rate on modern maps registered by eloboard, ordered by number of games decreasing: Polypoid 53% Vermeer 52.7% Retro 52.9% Eclipse 52.7% Fighting Spirit 53.8% Allegro 59.1% (66k games on these first 6 maps)Ascension 52.2% Nemesis 52.1% La Campanella 54.7% Dark Origin 59.8% Largo 63.4% Heartbreak Ridge 52.1% Goodnight 66.5% Odyssey 51.9% Metaverse 56.7% 76 58.3% Neo Arkanoid 57.9% Neo Sylphid 50% Apocalypse 49.9% Neo Dark Origin 50.9% (20k games on these 3 maps)Revolver 43.9% (the most played maps that can be considered Protoss favored in PvZ - 2700 games)Butter 48.8% Invader 48.9% Tempest 48.6% Radeon 48.3% Citadel 47.3% Blitz Y 36.3% Monopoly 47% Troy 41.2% (and honestly, this list of Protoss-favored maps is not that "favored" with most of them being close to 49% for Zerg) Protoss have played like 80k games on maps that can be considered Zerg-favored, while Zerg have played approx 10k games on Protoss-favored, and 20k games are played on somewhat balanced maps. Absurd that now we have two weird ass maps which will 100% not be used next season -they are just the equivalents of 76 or Arkanoid - and Zerg can cry about a change in state of ZvP. I don't want to be nitpicking, esp. since you think I'm out on some sort of specific crusade, but not too long ago you were discrediting another poster for using elo to support his point, saying they were unreliable statistics. But now you're out here using elo statistics at your own convenience to support your own argument. Just thought that was only fair to point out. (I think they're fine to use btw. Just because the benchmarking method is different from ASL or proleague statistics doesn't make them false.) They are not the same thing. This is map win rates accross all games played, ever (registered). The other thing is the elo points of some specific players in a specific month. Honestly I'm a bit annoyed with your ignorance yet arrogance af. You are selectively using statistics to support your claims, it's tiring. Why are these statistics suddenly valid now, while you considered the data set that these stats have been gathered from unreliable otherwise? What changed? People farming elo vs lower rated players are suddenly not obfuscating the data anymore? Does the fact that these are played through different eras not matter in a discussion about current day balance? You pretend to uphold some sort of statistical integrity, yet you cherry pick data to back your claims all the time. This was just recently pointed out to you as well, and you went off the rails as well. Ignorance you say? The more you've been posting, the more you've been facing pushback from various other posters that have become annoyed by your arrogance and your condescending act. If you were always right and insightful this would be less of a problem, but your inconsistency and your personal quest to constantly try to 'outdo' others posters on TL.net, scavenging for any stat that might make your point seem valid, makes it a recurring sigh of frustration every time you're out there trying to score internet points. It is evident that you have a lot of knowledge about events and games played, while simultaneously also having a limited conceptual understanding as your ideas commonly align with below B level expectations. Everyone's free to post their opinions but you don't have to push your misguided opinion onto everyone else. Whenever this is pointed out you lose the plot again. Talking about annoyance. It's nice that you take the time and effort to post these results and schedules - it's definitely convenient when tuning into proleague and trying to get a hold of what's going on. Consider focusing on the groundwork while letting others draw their own conclusions - plays to everyone's strengths better. As long as you are posting with this attitude you should be ready to get challenged as well, especially when you are being inconsistent or just plainly wrong. You're not special, you're just another poster, just like everyone else. You are sick in your head, spending that many words just to talk about another poster. Let me point out your hypocrisy, or should I say, dick move, first: while everyone in this thread was just talking about maps and balance, you made a post just to point out what you think is my double standard, citing something I said 2 weeks ago to another poster (not even to you lol). A normal poster, who is on topic, would just agree or disagree with those map stats and elaborate on why he thinks so (see Sziky post above for example). But the main purpose of your post is solely to pick on me. You joined the thread not to discuss the topic, but to discuss about me. There's clearly a degree of obssession towards me. No wonder why I think that cheeseguy with 5/10 of his posts just to flame me is your clone. More on your posts later.
You added more material to a post which originally was just an unhinged outburst by itself. All I did was providing a mirror. Truth can hurt sometimes. Who knows, who cares.
I'm not out here to waste my time on trash talking. This has nothing to do with some sort of non-existing grudge, as you've suggested before. When I'm reading too much BS I will call it out. That happened before, it happened this time & it will happen in the future again.
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On April 11 2024 04:39 Smorrie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2024 04:33 TMNT wrote:On April 11 2024 02:28 Smorrie wrote:On April 11 2024 01:00 TMNT wrote:On April 10 2024 23:20 Smorrie wrote:On April 10 2024 15:16 TMNT wrote:On April 10 2024 10:28 Shinokuki wrote:On April 10 2024 09:53 TMNT wrote:On April 10 2024 07:54 Shinokuki wrote:
Many foreigners would be so dumbfounded by this as they've always been stating ZVP is imba, but they don't know how bad zvp has been on major proleagues, non asl tourneys, and sponmatches. This all started when Sylphid got nerf'd and map makers kept giving buffs to protoss because of how well zergs have been doing on ASL. Unfortunately, ASL has such a small sample size of what ZvP landscape is like nowadays and it is rather frustrating that ASL Map pools are still dictating online events which are the major source of income for all progamers. ASL is just for prestige at this point.
I heard something interesting yesterday from hero and he basically stated that zerg has to cheese and do a lot of killer timing attack to be able to hold a decent win rate vs P. If Z does not do that and wants to go standard vs P, Z will be behind nowadays. But how to do these killer timing moves when map makers give insane simcity wall for protoss and close to no chokepoints for zergs? Oh come on. I'm running the Proleague thread myself. It's only recently. And compounded by Soma going to the military. Yes Troy and Blitz are bad for ZvP but these maps will 100% not stay for next season. Meanwhile Retro and NDO which are slightly Zerg favored have been there for 3 seasons? This is like the first Protoss favored map pool since the Sparkle season (may explain the first time they have 4 players in Ro8 since) ? And Zerg, I mean Soulkey lol, has only been doing well since last season. How long had we used Eclipse, Sylphid, Polypoid and Vermeer? Like, forever. Largo and Allegro (aka Protoss graveyard) were used for 3 seasons. Arkanoid that Hero said it himself was a free win for Zerg. Heartbreak Ridge anyone? By the way what's the problem with Citadel in ZvP. The win rate is close to 50% and I don't see any features too bad for Zerg. In fact looks pretty nasty for a Lurker contain. Citadel is 47% win rate for zvp. Sylphid is not good for ZvP. Retro is good for ZvP yes but that's negated by abysmal 40% win rate for ZvT. NDO seems to be the only "balanced" map which is why it's there for many seasons now. It's a pretty 50% win rate for zvt and zvp. Vermeer is 41% zvt while having 52% zvp.. So those maps weren't even good for zergs overall. I give you largo and allegro but those were quickly taken out after one season. Also, I don't like to emphasize ASL that much. You know well that major proleagues, sponmatches, and other events are 95% of player's income and for months zergs have been underperforming compared to P/T. Largo was used once and they modified it into Allegro then used it for 2 more seasons. Allegro is the one of the most played map (9th, since eloboard was created) in the modern era. I have been crying for years that ZvT win rates are terrible on most of the maps, with some of the most played maps being close to 60% for Terran, but Zerg crying about ZvP too is weird. Historically Protoss has always had only the weird ass maps where they can enjoy a significant positive win rate against Zerg. Here's ZvP win rate on modern maps registered by eloboard, ordered by number of games decreasing: Polypoid 53% Vermeer 52.7% Retro 52.9% Eclipse 52.7% Fighting Spirit 53.8% Allegro 59.1% (66k games on these first 6 maps)Ascension 52.2% Nemesis 52.1% La Campanella 54.7% Dark Origin 59.8% Largo 63.4% Heartbreak Ridge 52.1% Goodnight 66.5% Odyssey 51.9% Metaverse 56.7% 76 58.3% Neo Arkanoid 57.9% Neo Sylphid 50% Apocalypse 49.9% Neo Dark Origin 50.9% (20k games on these 3 maps)Revolver 43.9% (the most played maps that can be considered Protoss favored in PvZ - 2700 games)Butter 48.8% Invader 48.9% Tempest 48.6% Radeon 48.3% Citadel 47.3% Blitz Y 36.3% Monopoly 47% Troy 41.2% (and honestly, this list of Protoss-favored maps is not that "favored" with most of them being close to 49% for Zerg) Protoss have played like 80k games on maps that can be considered Zerg-favored, while Zerg have played approx 10k games on Protoss-favored, and 20k games are played on somewhat balanced maps. Absurd that now we have two weird ass maps which will 100% not be used next season -they are just the equivalents of 76 or Arkanoid - and Zerg can cry about a change in state of ZvP. I don't want to be nitpicking, esp. since you think I'm out on some sort of specific crusade, but not too long ago you were discrediting another poster for using elo to support his point, saying they were unreliable statistics. But now you're out here using elo statistics at your own convenience to support your own argument. Just thought that was only fair to point out. (I think they're fine to use btw. Just because the benchmarking method is different from ASL or proleague statistics doesn't make them false.) They are not the same thing. This is map win rates accross all games played, ever (registered). The other thing is the elo points of some specific players in a specific month. Honestly I'm a bit annoyed with your ignorance yet arrogance af. You are selectively using statistics to support your claims, it's tiring. Why are these statistics suddenly valid now, while you considered the data set that these stats have been gathered from unreliable otherwise? What changed? People farming elo vs lower rated players are suddenly not obfuscating the data anymore? Does the fact that these are played through different eras not matter in a discussion about current day balance? You pretend to uphold some sort of statistical integrity, yet you cherry pick data to back your claims all the time. This was just recently pointed out to you as well, and you went off the rails as well. Ignorance you say? The more you've been posting, the more you've been facing pushback from various other posters that have become annoyed by your arrogance and your condescending act. If you were always right and insightful this would be less of a problem, but your inconsistency and your personal quest to constantly try to 'outdo' others posters on TL.net, scavenging for any stat that might make your point seem valid, makes it a recurring sigh of frustration every time you're out there trying to score internet points. It is evident that you have a lot of knowledge about events and games played, while simultaneously also having a limited conceptual understanding as your ideas commonly align with below B level expectations. Everyone's free to post their opinions but you don't have to push your misguided opinion onto everyone else. Whenever this is pointed out you lose the plot again. Talking about annoyance. It's nice that you take the time and effort to post these results and schedules - it's definitely convenient when tuning into proleague and trying to get a hold of what's going on. Consider focusing on the groundwork while letting others draw their own conclusions - plays to everyone's strengths better. As long as you are posting with this attitude you should be ready to get challenged as well, especially when you are being inconsistent or just plainly wrong. You're not special, you're just another poster, just like everyone else. You are sick in your head, spending that many words just to talk about another poster. Let me point out your hypocrisy, or should I say, dick move, first: while everyone in this thread was just talking about maps and balance, you made a post just to point out what you think is my double standard, citing something I said 2 weeks ago to another poster (not even to you lol). A normal poster, who is on topic, would just agree or disagree with those map stats and elaborate on why he thinks so (see Sziky post above for example). But the main purpose of your post is solely to pick on me. You joined the thread not to discuss the topic, but to discuss about me. There's clearly a degree of obssession towards me. No wonder why I think that cheeseguy with 5/10 of his posts just to flame me is your clone. More on your posts later. You added more material to a post which originally was just an unhinged outburst by itself. All I did was providing a mirror. Truth can hurt sometimes. Who knows, who cares. I'm not out here to waste my time on trash talking. This has nothing to do with some sort of non-existing grudge, as you've suggested before. When I'm reading too much BS I will call it out. That happened before, it happened this time & it will happen in the future again.
Can you stop using jargon and digressing from the main point? You are the master of using a lot of words without actually, directly addressing the problem at hand.
My post is insightful, contains a lot of information, it stays on the topic, yes?
Your post adds nothing to the topic but an attempt of personal flaming, no?
Admit it like a man.
By the way, I will respond in details to many things you said. You said a lot of wrong ignorant shits that it really takes time.
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On April 10 2024 15:16 TMNT wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2024 10:28 Shinokuki wrote:On April 10 2024 09:53 TMNT wrote:On April 10 2024 07:54 Shinokuki wrote:
Many foreigners would be so dumbfounded by this as they've always been stating ZVP is imba, but they don't know how bad zvp has been on major proleagues, non asl tourneys, and sponmatches. This all started when Sylphid got nerf'd and map makers kept giving buffs to protoss because of how well zergs have been doing on ASL. Unfortunately, ASL has such a small sample size of what ZvP landscape is like nowadays and it is rather frustrating that ASL Map pools are still dictating online events which are the major source of income for all progamers. ASL is just for prestige at this point.
I heard something interesting yesterday from hero and he basically stated that zerg has to cheese and do a lot of killer timing attack to be able to hold a decent win rate vs P. If Z does not do that and wants to go standard vs P, Z will be behind nowadays. But how to do these killer timing moves when map makers give insane simcity wall for protoss and close to no chokepoints for zergs? Oh come on. I'm running the Proleague thread myself. It's only recently. And compounded by Soma going to the military. Yes Troy and Blitz are bad for ZvP but these maps will 100% not stay for next season. Meanwhile Retro and NDO which are slightly Zerg favored have been there for 3 seasons? This is like the first Protoss favored map pool since the Sparkle season (may explain the first time they have 4 players in Ro8 since) ? And Zerg, I mean Soulkey lol, has only been doing well since last season. How long had we used Eclipse, Sylphid, Polypoid and Vermeer? Like, forever. Largo and Allegro (aka Protoss graveyard) were used for 3 seasons. Arkanoid that Hero said it himself was a free win for Zerg. Heartbreak Ridge anyone? By the way what's the problem with Citadel in ZvP. The win rate is close to 50% and I don't see any features too bad for Zerg. In fact looks pretty nasty for a Lurker contain. Citadel is 47% win rate for zvp. Sylphid is not good for ZvP. Retro is good for ZvP yes but that's negated by abysmal 40% win rate for ZvT. NDO seems to be the only "balanced" map which is why it's there for many seasons now. It's a pretty 50% win rate for zvt and zvp. Vermeer is 41% zvt while having 52% zvp.. So those maps weren't even good for zergs overall. I give you largo and allegro but those were quickly taken out after one season. Also, I don't like to emphasize ASL that much. You know well that major proleagues, sponmatches, and other events are 95% of player's income and for months zergs have been underperforming compared to P/T. Largo was used once and they modified it into Allegro then used it for 2 more seasons. Allegro is the one of the most played map (9th, since eloboard was created) in the modern era. I have been crying for years that ZvT win rates are terrible on most of the maps, with some of the most played maps being close to 60% for Terran, but Zerg crying about ZvP too is weird. Historically Protoss has always had only the weird ass maps where they can enjoy a significant positive win rate against Zerg. Here's ZvP win rate on modern maps registered by eloboard, ordered by number of games decreasing: Polypoid 53% Vermeer 52.7% Retro 52.9% Eclipse 52.7% Fighting Spirit 53.8% Allegro 59.1% (66k games on these first 6 maps)Ascension 52.2% Nemesis 52.1% La Campanella 54.7% Dark Origin 59.8% Largo 63.4% Heartbreak Ridge 52.1% Goodnight 66.5% Odyssey 51.9% Metaverse 56.7% 76 58.3% Neo Arkanoid 57.9% Neo Sylphid 50% Apocalypse 49.9% Neo Dark Origin 50.9% (20k games on these 3 maps)Revolver 43.9% (the most played maps that can be considered Protoss favored in PvZ - 2700 games)Butter 48.8% Invader 48.9% Tempest 48.6% Radeon 48.3% Citadel 47.3% Blitz Y 36.3% Monopoly 47% Troy 41.2% (and honestly, this list of Protoss-favored maps is not that "favored" with most of them being close to 49% for Zerg) Protoss have played like 80k games on maps that can be considered Zerg-favored, while Zerg have played approx 10k games on Protoss-favored, and 20k games are played on somewhat balanced maps. Absurd that now we have two weird ass maps which will 100% not be used next season -they are just the equivalents of 76 or Arkanoid - and Zerg can cry about a change in state of ZvP.
Thank You very much for this post, dude.
Just btw. 
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You complain about me reacting to your post, after you came out with the insults. That's all on you. But it turns out you can dish it out but can't take it. Classic.
Your post refers to a dataset which just recently you turned down when someone else used it. You don't have to admit anything, it's all documented. Posting a bunch of data does not suddenly make you a credible source. That is the point I am making.
A random guy gives you some criticism, take it like a man and move on. I'm not interested in your personal hatred towards me and won't respond to it anymore. This has been wasting my time enough already. Your insults were uncalled for. But do whatever you please. When you hit the BS quota again I will be back to uphold the integrity of the forum. Have a good day!
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On April 11 2024 04:55 TMNT wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2024 04:39 Smorrie wrote:On April 11 2024 04:33 TMNT wrote:On April 11 2024 02:28 Smorrie wrote:On April 11 2024 01:00 TMNT wrote:On April 10 2024 23:20 Smorrie wrote:On April 10 2024 15:16 TMNT wrote:On April 10 2024 10:28 Shinokuki wrote:On April 10 2024 09:53 TMNT wrote:On April 10 2024 07:54 Shinokuki wrote:
Many foreigners would be so dumbfounded by this as they've always been stating ZVP is imba, but they don't know how bad zvp has been on major proleagues, non asl tourneys, and sponmatches. This all started when Sylphid got nerf'd and map makers kept giving buffs to protoss because of how well zergs have been doing on ASL. Unfortunately, ASL has such a small sample size of what ZvP landscape is like nowadays and it is rather frustrating that ASL Map pools are still dictating online events which are the major source of income for all progamers. ASL is just for prestige at this point.
I heard something interesting yesterday from hero and he basically stated that zerg has to cheese and do a lot of killer timing attack to be able to hold a decent win rate vs P. If Z does not do that and wants to go standard vs P, Z will be behind nowadays. But how to do these killer timing moves when map makers give insane simcity wall for protoss and close to no chokepoints for zergs? Oh come on. I'm running the Proleague thread myself. It's only recently. And compounded by Soma going to the military. Yes Troy and Blitz are bad for ZvP but these maps will 100% not stay for next season. Meanwhile Retro and NDO which are slightly Zerg favored have been there for 3 seasons? This is like the first Protoss favored map pool since the Sparkle season (may explain the first time they have 4 players in Ro8 since) ? And Zerg, I mean Soulkey lol, has only been doing well since last season. How long had we used Eclipse, Sylphid, Polypoid and Vermeer? Like, forever. Largo and Allegro (aka Protoss graveyard) were used for 3 seasons. Arkanoid that Hero said it himself was a free win for Zerg. Heartbreak Ridge anyone? By the way what's the problem with Citadel in ZvP. The win rate is close to 50% and I don't see any features too bad for Zerg. In fact looks pretty nasty for a Lurker contain. Citadel is 47% win rate for zvp. Sylphid is not good for ZvP. Retro is good for ZvP yes but that's negated by abysmal 40% win rate for ZvT. NDO seems to be the only "balanced" map which is why it's there for many seasons now. It's a pretty 50% win rate for zvt and zvp. Vermeer is 41% zvt while having 52% zvp.. So those maps weren't even good for zergs overall. I give you largo and allegro but those were quickly taken out after one season. Also, I don't like to emphasize ASL that much. You know well that major proleagues, sponmatches, and other events are 95% of player's income and for months zergs have been underperforming compared to P/T. Largo was used once and they modified it into Allegro then used it for 2 more seasons. Allegro is the one of the most played map (9th, since eloboard was created) in the modern era. I have been crying for years that ZvT win rates are terrible on most of the maps, with some of the most played maps being close to 60% for Terran, but Zerg crying about ZvP too is weird. Historically Protoss has always had only the weird ass maps where they can enjoy a significant positive win rate against Zerg. Here's ZvP win rate on modern maps registered by eloboard, ordered by number of games decreasing: Polypoid 53% Vermeer 52.7% Retro 52.9% Eclipse 52.7% Fighting Spirit 53.8% Allegro 59.1% (66k games on these first 6 maps)Ascension 52.2% Nemesis 52.1% La Campanella 54.7% Dark Origin 59.8% Largo 63.4% Heartbreak Ridge 52.1% Goodnight 66.5% Odyssey 51.9% Metaverse 56.7% 76 58.3% Neo Arkanoid 57.9% Neo Sylphid 50% Apocalypse 49.9% Neo Dark Origin 50.9% (20k games on these 3 maps)Revolver 43.9% (the most played maps that can be considered Protoss favored in PvZ - 2700 games)Butter 48.8% Invader 48.9% Tempest 48.6% Radeon 48.3% Citadel 47.3% Blitz Y 36.3% Monopoly 47% Troy 41.2% (and honestly, this list of Protoss-favored maps is not that "favored" with most of them being close to 49% for Zerg) Protoss have played like 80k games on maps that can be considered Zerg-favored, while Zerg have played approx 10k games on Protoss-favored, and 20k games are played on somewhat balanced maps. Absurd that now we have two weird ass maps which will 100% not be used next season -they are just the equivalents of 76 or Arkanoid - and Zerg can cry about a change in state of ZvP. I don't want to be nitpicking, esp. since you think I'm out on some sort of specific crusade, but not too long ago you were discrediting another poster for using elo to support his point, saying they were unreliable statistics. But now you're out here using elo statistics at your own convenience to support your own argument. Just thought that was only fair to point out. (I think they're fine to use btw. Just because the benchmarking method is different from ASL or proleague statistics doesn't make them false.) They are not the same thing. This is map win rates accross all games played, ever (registered). The other thing is the elo points of some specific players in a specific month. Honestly I'm a bit annoyed with your ignorance yet arrogance af. You are selectively using statistics to support your claims, it's tiring. Why are these statistics suddenly valid now, while you considered the data set that these stats have been gathered from unreliable otherwise? What changed? People farming elo vs lower rated players are suddenly not obfuscating the data anymore? Does the fact that these are played through different eras not matter in a discussion about current day balance? You pretend to uphold some sort of statistical integrity, yet you cherry pick data to back your claims all the time. This was just recently pointed out to you as well, and you went off the rails as well. Ignorance you say? The more you've been posting, the more you've been facing pushback from various other posters that have become annoyed by your arrogance and your condescending act. If you were always right and insightful this would be less of a problem, but your inconsistency and your personal quest to constantly try to 'outdo' others posters on TL.net, scavenging for any stat that might make your point seem valid, makes it a recurring sigh of frustration every time you're out there trying to score internet points. It is evident that you have a lot of knowledge about events and games played, while simultaneously also having a limited conceptual understanding as your ideas commonly align with below B level expectations. Everyone's free to post their opinions but you don't have to push your misguided opinion onto everyone else. Whenever this is pointed out you lose the plot again. Talking about annoyance. It's nice that you take the time and effort to post these results and schedules - it's definitely convenient when tuning into proleague and trying to get a hold of what's going on. Consider focusing on the groundwork while letting others draw their own conclusions - plays to everyone's strengths better. As long as you are posting with this attitude you should be ready to get challenged as well, especially when you are being inconsistent or just plainly wrong. You're not special, you're just another poster, just like everyone else. You are sick in your head, spending that many words just to talk about another poster. Let me point out your hypocrisy, or should I say, dick move, first: while everyone in this thread was just talking about maps and balance, you made a post just to point out what you think is my double standard, citing something I said 2 weeks ago to another poster (not even to you lol). A normal poster, who is on topic, would just agree or disagree with those map stats and elaborate on why he thinks so (see Sziky post above for example). But the main purpose of your post is solely to pick on me. You joined the thread not to discuss the topic, but to discuss about me. There's clearly a degree of obssession towards me. No wonder why I think that cheeseguy with 5/10 of his posts just to flame me is your clone. More on your posts later. You added more material to a post which originally was just an unhinged outburst by itself. All I did was providing a mirror. Truth can hurt sometimes. Who knows, who cares. I'm not out here to waste my time on trash talking. This has nothing to do with some sort of non-existing grudge, as you've suggested before. When I'm reading too much BS I will call it out. That happened before, it happened this time & it will happen in the future again. Can you stop using jargon and digressing from the main point? You are the master of using a lot of words without actually, directly addressing the problem at hand. My post is insightful, contains a lot of information, it stays on the topic, yes? Your post adds nothing to the topic but an attempt of personal flaming, no? Admit it like a man. By the way, I will respond in details to many things you said. You said a lot of wrong ignorant shits that it really takes time.
I would be careful who you pick a fight with mate
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Now onto the details.
1/ Here's what RJBTB and I said a couple of weeks ago:
+ Show Spoiler +On March 27 2024 00:36 TMNT wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2024 23:36 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote:
You're massively underselling Rush and Sharp's current online performance there.
Rush is 2nd on Eloboard and Sharp is 4th. Rush specifically has been doing very well.
We Legitimately have rank #1Snow, #2Rush, #3Bisu, #4Sharp, #5Hero, #6Soulkey, (#7queen), #8Mini and #9Best on Eloboard in the Top 8 in ASL. That's legitimately the MOST well rounded ASL round of 8.
For once we actually have the best 8 online performers in the top 8 offline tournament. Elo points are the least reliable stats in the streaming era though. That's why I never mentioned it in any of my analyses. The reason is the "selective farming" of the more active players. It's like ladder but you get to choose who you play, so you get only 5 pts every time you beat someone much weaker than you, but you can repeatedly do it 10 times. For example if you check Rush, he gained at least 100 pts this month from farming the likes of Paralyze and Sacsri. Even the proleague elo points are not reliable due to the inconsistent activities of proleague and k league. Stork as #3 in PL elo this month, with BTS #4 and Shinee #5, says it all for you.
This is purely technical talk. Not even a disagreement. He presented a fact (the elo ranking at that moment). I added that elo pts at a given time are not reliable and offered my view on it, effectively saying that ranking doesn't necessarily reflect the top 8 players at the moment. We said nothing about each other. Yet Mr. Smorrie here branded it as me "discrediting" RJB (discredit = harm the reputation of someone).
2/ You accusing me of inconsistencies via cherry picking elo statistics.
First and foremost, map win rates are not "elo statistics". Don't think anyone here needs that explained. Your stupid accusation should just end here immediately. But let's see what you wrote as follow-ups:
Why are these statistics suddenly valid now, while you considered the data set that these stats have been gathered from unreliable otherwise?
That's because you're counting map data collected from 100k games accross 3-4 years and the elo points of some certain players at one point in time as the same thing, dumbass. Elo points go up and down all the time, just like your ladder mmr. Map win rates don't vary that much.
+ Show Spoiler +What changed? People farming elo vs lower rated players are suddenly not obfuscating the data anymore?
It doesn't. Because of two reasons: (1) no player has the power to skew such a big data by himself lol, and (2) there always are counter balances, i.e. if a Barracks is farming a BTS for 10 straight games so that he shoots up to top 5 on the elo ranking, there is always an Effort who is also farming a Piano to make up for that. Obviously everyone is aware of the problem that Sziky posed above. But there is no better way and map win rates have always been counted like that and we have to let the big sample size takes care of everything.
+ Show Spoiler +Does the fact that these are played through different eras not matter in a discussion about current day balance?
Ignorance again. Eloboard data are collected from 2021. Most of these maps in the list are created in recent years. What different eras are you talking about? We're not talking about Kespa and Lost Temple era bro.
+ Show Spoiler +You pretend to uphold some sort of statistical integrity, yet you cherry pick data to back your claims all the time
There is only one pack of data on map win rates available on the internet bro. And it's for all time (since the site was created). How can I cherry pick if there is only one thing to pick. Maybe that pack of data can be refined but I reckon the only person who's gonna do that here is me and I will post them myself if I am ever to do so. Man, for a guy so ignorant about the pro KR scene you shouldn't make those bold claims.
+ Show Spoiler +The more you've been posting, the more you've been facing pushback from various other posters that have become annoyed by your arrogance and your condescending ac
Who are these "various other posters". You and that recently registered guy with 10 posts of which 5 are to flame me? No one in this thread has any problem with me. Only you.
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On April 11 2024 05:40 Smorrie wrote:
Your post refers to a dataset which just recently you turned down when someone else used it. You don't have to admit anything, it's all documented. Posting a bunch of data does not suddenly make you a credible source. That is the point I am making.
Dude, it's not the same data set. One is the map win rate of all time and one is the players elo ranking of at a specific time. This is the 3rd time I have to repeat this. Can you read please?
And yes, I called you ignorant in this thread first, but only after you quoted me with clear malintention. Although I have to say at this point I've proved with evidences that you are indeed ignorant.
Last but not least, you clearly had a problem with me before and acted condescendingly and sarcastically first in this thread not long ago while I was simply making a normal conversation, then again here along with the 10-post-troll, which I still suspect is your clone. In both cases (in the general thread and this one) I was making just purely informative posts but got a hostile response out of nowhere. Another thing is, I would at least have some respect for you if you can logically, reasonably argue on the topic of BW (like explain why this stats or that stats are good or bad) , but you seem to just spend paragraphs making comments about me without evidences to back up. Like, when I say you're ignorant I have to demonstrate your lack of understanding about the eloboard data (obviously you have no clue about it and probably have never even visited the site nor knowing any Korean) . But you, I have to say your way of arguing is absolute dog shit.
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Don't you love it when a guy posts balance stats on 131 games (pvz stats from february proleagues from the vid)? This amount of games definitely and truly defines balance, doesn't it.
Also... love how JD cries over P being too strong while showing a replay where he beats the Protoss that got to top 8 of current ASL and top 2 of the previous one.
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EPT
