• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 02:53
CET 08:53
KST 16:53
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Revival - 2025 Season Finals Preview8RSL Season 3 - Playoffs Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups C & D Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups A & B Preview2TL.net Map Contest #21: Winners12
Community News
Weekly Cups (Dec 15-21): Classic wins big, MaxPax & Clem take weeklies0ComeBackTV's documentary on Byun's Career !10Weekly Cups (Dec 8-14): MaxPax, Clem, Cure win4Weekly Cups (Dec 1-7): Clem doubles, Solar gets over the hump1Weekly Cups (Nov 24-30): MaxPax, Clem, herO win2
StarCraft 2
General
Weekly Cups (Dec 15-21): Classic wins big, MaxPax & Clem take weeklies ComeBackTV's documentary on Byun's Career ! Micro Lags When Playing SC2? When will we find out if there are more tournament Weekly Cups (Dec 8-14): MaxPax, Clem, Cure win
Tourneys
$5,000+ WardiTV 2025 Championship Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament $100 Prize Pool - Winter Warp Gate Masters Showdow Winter Warp Gate Amateur Showdown #1 RSL Offline Finals Info - Dec 13 and 14!
Strategy
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ?
External Content
Mutation # 505 Rise From Ashes Mutation # 504 Retribution Mutation # 503 Fowl Play Mutation # 502 Negative Reinforcement
Brood War
General
BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Klaucher discontinued / in-game color settings Anyone remember me from 2000s Bnet EAST server? How Rain Became ProGamer in Just 3 Months FlaSh on: Biggest Problem With SnOw's Playstyle
Tourneys
[BSL21] LB QuarterFinals - Sunday 21:00 CET Small VOD Thread 2.0 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL21] WB SEMIFINALS - Saturday 21:00 CET
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Game Theory for Starcraft Current Meta Fighting Spirit mining rates
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Beyond All Reason Path of Exile General RTS Discussion Thread Nintendo Switch Thread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas Survivor II: The Amazon Sengoku Mafia TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
The Games Industry And ATVI US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine YouTube Thread
Fan Clubs
White-Ra Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion!
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
TL+ Announced Where to ask questions and add stream?
Blogs
The (Hidden) Drug Problem in…
TrAiDoS
I decided to write a webnov…
DjKniteX
James Bond movies ranking - pa…
Topin
Thanks for the RSL
Hildegard
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1012 users

JD on current state of ZvP - Page 6

Forum Index > BW General
Post a Reply
Prev 1 4 5 6 All
RJBTVYOUTUBE
Profile Joined December 2023
Netherlands1062 Posts
April 14 2024 01:52 GMT
#101
On April 14 2024 02:29 Ideas wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 13 2024 23:28 Smorrie wrote:
Good post KogeT. I'm pretty sure that data set also includes 973's heyday which amplifies this even more.

SK vs Bisu in ASL is also a great representation of this - Bisu got ahead too far, but SK cancelled his macro hatch and put down a dual den which gave him just barely enough time to find an effective window and take that W. Using his muta pressure he prevented scouting to obfuscate his off-beat bust. He knew it wasn't worth trying to stretch a game which's outcome was pretty much set already.

Taking that Protoss generally is getting increasingly better at applying different ways of pressure and getting better reads, at least at higher levels of play, is pretty much why higher level zergs in this thread are saying there is no advantage.


Yea that was such a genius play from SK but to newer fan might just look like a standard hydra bust. I love how freaking deep the pros have taken the meta in BW.


Soulkey best mind gamer right now.
JDON MY SOUL!
BulgarianToss
Profile Joined May 2011
Bulgaria490 Posts
April 14 2024 12:06 GMT
#102
On April 14 2024 00:39 TMNT wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 12 2024 22:00 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
So by that definition Soulkey is a genius in your book ? he is the progamer that play the less. He spend weeks with rain grinding league of legends or just taking day off all the time ( he surely is a genius and his wins have nothing to do with balance right ? ). The thing is that what tells you in those stats that you show about pvz those zergs are not genuises ? How do you know how much a person plays or not ?

You seem to be too concerned about my comment about Bonyth being a genius? I think he streams one or two times a week, at most? And most of the times he has to wait forever to get a game because at his mmr he can't find foreign opponents and has to wait to be matched with a Korean who will instantly leave or accept to play at a terrible TR. That's all the practice at "high level" he can get as far as I know, unless he practices offstream like a mad man (but with whom?). You notice I didn't say Dewalt is a genius? It's just my opinion about one player in particular.

So I don't really know how to answer your question about those Zergs not being geniuses because that's not what I implied. Some of them probably are. Soulkey probably is, given he and Rain are champions in both SC1 and SC2. But keep in mind that despite what they're doing now as streamers, they all sat their asses off in teamhouses 15 years ago playing Starcraft at least 12 hours a day, with coaches and high level practice partners.




Bonyth is using korean VPN to be matched with koreans and play at better TR with them. It's not perfect and the VPN is not always stable, but he is able to get practice with koreans. I think eon is right that you never know how much anyone is playing unless you are living with them. I'm sure offline practice for the top players is a must to stay sharp/improve on small details of the game.
music is the best thing in the world
TMNT
Profile Joined January 2021
3102 Posts
April 14 2024 12:56 GMT
#103
On April 14 2024 21:06 BulgarianToss wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 14 2024 00:39 TMNT wrote:
On April 12 2024 22:00 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
So by that definition Soulkey is a genius in your book ? he is the progamer that play the less. He spend weeks with rain grinding league of legends or just taking day off all the time ( he surely is a genius and his wins have nothing to do with balance right ? ). The thing is that what tells you in those stats that you show about pvz those zergs are not genuises ? How do you know how much a person plays or not ?

You seem to be too concerned about my comment about Bonyth being a genius? I think he streams one or two times a week, at most? And most of the times he has to wait forever to get a game because at his mmr he can't find foreign opponents and has to wait to be matched with a Korean who will instantly leave or accept to play at a terrible TR. That's all the practice at "high level" he can get as far as I know, unless he practices offstream like a mad man (but with whom?). You notice I didn't say Dewalt is a genius? It's just my opinion about one player in particular.

So I don't really know how to answer your question about those Zergs not being geniuses because that's not what I implied. Some of them probably are. Soulkey probably is, given he and Rain are champions in both SC1 and SC2. But keep in mind that despite what they're doing now as streamers, they all sat their asses off in teamhouses 15 years ago playing Starcraft at least 12 hours a day, with coaches and high level practice partners.




Bonyth is using korean VPN to be matched with koreans and play at better TR with them. It's not perfect and the VPN is not always stable, but he is able to get practice with koreans. I think eon is right that you never know how much anyone is playing unless you are living with them. I'm sure offline practice for the top players is a must to stay sharp/improve on small details of the game.

I know, I watched his streams. But one thing for sure: he plays much less than Dewalt, the top Chinese players, and the Korean amateurs. But he's at their level, if not better (bar the Koreans). You can't say that for anyone else in the foreign scene. That's what make him a genius among the foreigners. Either that, or Protoss is too easy lol.
PVJ
Profile Blog Joined July 2012
Hungary5221 Posts
April 14 2024 14:45 GMT
#104
Thanks jinjin for your videos! I downloaded it and cut out just the part where JaeDong switches the commentary to English. It's fucking hilarious and so honest. "Blitz, troy, citadel - what the fuck?" "Fucking protoss!!!!!" Long live aiur!!!
The heart's eternal vow
M3t4PhYzX
Profile Joined March 2019
Poland4228 Posts
April 14 2024 15:20 GMT
#105
On April 14 2024 21:56 TMNT wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 14 2024 21:06 BulgarianToss wrote:
On April 14 2024 00:39 TMNT wrote:
On April 12 2024 22:00 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
So by that definition Soulkey is a genius in your book ? he is the progamer that play the less. He spend weeks with rain grinding league of legends or just taking day off all the time ( he surely is a genius and his wins have nothing to do with balance right ? ). The thing is that what tells you in those stats that you show about pvz those zergs are not genuises ? How do you know how much a person plays or not ?

You seem to be too concerned about my comment about Bonyth being a genius? I think he streams one or two times a week, at most? And most of the times he has to wait forever to get a game because at his mmr he can't find foreign opponents and has to wait to be matched with a Korean who will instantly leave or accept to play at a terrible TR. That's all the practice at "high level" he can get as far as I know, unless he practices offstream like a mad man (but with whom?). You notice I didn't say Dewalt is a genius? It's just my opinion about one player in particular.

So I don't really know how to answer your question about those Zergs not being geniuses because that's not what I implied. Some of them probably are. Soulkey probably is, given he and Rain are champions in both SC1 and SC2. But keep in mind that despite what they're doing now as streamers, they all sat their asses off in teamhouses 15 years ago playing Starcraft at least 12 hours a day, with coaches and high level practice partners.




Bonyth is using korean VPN to be matched with koreans and play at better TR with them. It's not perfect and the VPN is not always stable, but he is able to get practice with koreans. I think eon is right that you never know how much anyone is playing unless you are living with them. I'm sure offline practice for the top players is a must to stay sharp/improve on small details of the game.

I know, I watched his streams. But one thing for sure: he plays much less than Dewalt, the top Chinese players, and the Korean amateurs. But he's at their level, if not better (bar the Koreans). You can't say that for anyone else in the foreign scene. That's what make him a genius among the foreigners. Either that, or Protoss is too easy lol.

I wish he had more time and better connection so he could play those tier 2 and 3 korean tournaments. That guy is a true BW genius, for real.
odi profanum vulgus et arceo
M3t4PhYzX
Profile Joined March 2019
Poland4228 Posts
April 14 2024 15:21 GMT
#106
Very interesting discussion so far, guys.

Please continue
odi profanum vulgus et arceo
cRoSsyy
Profile Joined December 2023
5 Posts
April 14 2024 17:44 GMT
#107
jinjin messed this up. he gotta come out public and apologize
jinjin5000
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1467 Posts
April 14 2024 17:51 GMT
#108
On April 15 2024 02:44 cRoSsyy wrote:
jinjin messed this up. he gotta come out public and apologize


Prev 1 4 5 6 All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 1h 7m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
WinterStarcraft601
Livibee 54
StarCraft: Brood War
Shuttle 534
Larva 195
PianO 154
Leta 121
Killer 115
Zeus 83
Sharp 78
sorry 74
soO 65
GoRush 38
[ Show more ]
ajuk12(nOOB) 35
yabsab 25
NotJumperer 17
League of Legends
JimRising 586
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor107
Other Games
summit1g8990
XaKoH 395
Mew2King6
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick706
BasetradeTV42
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 13 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH147
• practicex 29
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Lourlo1220
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
1h 7m
Wardi Open
4h 7m
Monday Night Weeklies
9h 7m
WardiTV Invitational
2 days
Replay Cast
3 days
WardiTV Invitational
3 days
ByuN vs Solar
Clem vs Classic
Cure vs herO
Reynor vs MaxPax
Replay Cast
4 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

YSL S2
WardiTV 2025
META Madness #9

Ongoing

C-Race Season 1
IPSL Winter 2025-26
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 4
BSL Season 21
Slon Tour Season 2
CSL Season 19: Qualifier 2
eXTREMESLAND 2025
SL Budapest Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22

Upcoming

CSL 2025 WINTER (S19)
BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2026
HSC XXVIII
Big Gabe Cup #3
OSC Championship Season 13
Nations Cup 2026
ESL Pro League Season 23
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.