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On April 10 2024 12:58 Shinokuki wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2024 12:34 XenOsky wrote:On April 10 2024 11:23 jinjin5000 wrote:
Dang I must be master of clickbait. #1 On April 10 2024 11:51 Shinokuki wrote:
Current meta and stats is what is most important for current progamers. Why do we have to talk about the past? Past does not exist anymore. He's just venting because ZvT is ALSO hard. cause ive been hurt by this for years, now i can laugh CRY ZERG PROGAMERS CRY ALL OVER THE INTERNEEEEEEEEEEEEEETZZZZZZZ You haven't even been remotely hurt. For years protoss amaterus dominated on FS. If anything, you benefited from being a protoss. Protoss at top level suffered against larva/soma/queen but not you lmao
watching your heroes die to 973 and hidra gambles for years hurts, also getting stomped in ladder vs 400 mmr lower idiots doing gambles also hurts, getting eliminated in online and offline tournaments vs lower level zergs doing all in or semi all in gables also hurts, quitting the game several times over the years cause its impossible to beat zergs consistently over 2200 hurts... playing in the way of a fucking eddy DID HURT and fucking circuit breakers and sylphid did also hurt...
fk zergs man, their mirror is 3 minutes long, vs p they have 3 billion builds and vs terran they just have to control mutas and get to hive... freelo fking race
dont try to tell me what hurts me and what does not, ok?
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On April 12 2024 15:01 XenOsky wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2024 12:58 Shinokuki wrote:On April 10 2024 12:34 XenOsky wrote:On April 10 2024 11:23 jinjin5000 wrote:
Dang I must be master of clickbait. #1 On April 10 2024 11:51 Shinokuki wrote:
Current meta and stats is what is most important for current progamers. Why do we have to talk about the past? Past does not exist anymore. He's just venting because ZvT is ALSO hard. cause ive been hurt by this for years, now i can laugh CRY ZERG PROGAMERS CRY ALL OVER THE INTERNEEEEEEEEEEEEEETZZZZZZZ You haven't even been remotely hurt. For years protoss amaterus dominated on FS. If anything, you benefited from being a protoss. Protoss at top level suffered against larva/soma/queen but not you lmao watching your heroes die to 973 and hidra gambles for years hurts, also getting stomped in ladder vs 400 mmr lower idiots doing gambles also hurts, getting eliminated in online and offline tournaments vs lower level zergs doing all in or semi all in gables also hurts, quitting the game several times over the years cause its impossible to beat zergs consistently over 2200 hurts... playing in the way of a fucking eddy DID HURT and fucking circuit breakers and sylphid did also hurt... fk zergs man, their mirror is 3 minutes long, vs p they have 3 billion builds and vs terran they just have to control mutas and get to hive... freelo fking race dont try to tell me what hurts me and what does not, ok?
Sheesh. ok I get your concerns xD
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On April 12 2024 03:28 Comedy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2024 01:48 G5 wrote:On April 12 2024 01:25 FlaShFTW wrote:
I just like the fact that Zergs finally feel the pain. Huehuehue. I do agree with this. PvZ getting more balanced = Zergs freaking out? It's still Z favored but because it's harder to wreck P now, after 25 years of E Z P Z games, it is hilarious that Zerg complains at all. It's like Protoss' complaining that PvT is getting harder. It's like, get over yourselves roflmao. It's honestly a good thing. zvp against good protoss never really been easy. why you think dewalt and bonyth been dominating foreign scene so hard for 6 yrs? we had good zergs. sziky. eon. trutacz. they all got rekt by protoss.
First off, nothing in SC is easy. Relatively speaking though, ZvP has been one of the easiest match ups in the game for the better part of 25 years.
The reason Dewalt and Bonyth have done so well in the remastered era is because their better than other foreigners lol. They study and play more. They're simply better. I don't think people even grasp the gap of levels between players. I don't think people even recognize how truly bad top foreigners are in comparison to top Koreans. People see a foreigner take a game here and there and think it's close. It ain't. The level of a league like BSL is an absolute joke compared to leagues like ASL. Not one foreigner can even make it out of ASL qualifiers. If there wasn't foreign leagues and everyone just played in the same leagues, you likely wouldn't know whom most of the players you just named even are.
You bring up top foreigner Zerg names and think because they struggle against people whom are clearly better than them that it's proof ZvP hasn't historically been one of the easiest match ups in the game for as long as the game has been out? It's like saying because Bisu has owned someone like 815 for the past decade that ZvP is really hard. They're literally on different levels of the game. It's a bad comparison.
I simply wouldn't use foreigners as an example at all since their understanding and execution of the game is extremely poor in comparison to actual pros and some of the level gaps between top foreigners are massive.
Side note just so y'all don't think I'm completely shitting on foreigners: I will give credit to Dewalt and some of the Chinese players. They are very good and are definitely starting to close the gap but they have a long way to go before being any real threat to the pros. I do sincerely hope it happens one day though.
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On April 12 2024 15:52 G5 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2024 03:28 Comedy wrote:On April 12 2024 01:48 G5 wrote:On April 12 2024 01:25 FlaShFTW wrote:
I just like the fact that Zergs finally feel the pain. Huehuehue. I do agree with this. PvZ getting more balanced = Zergs freaking out? It's still Z favored but because it's harder to wreck P now, after 25 years of E Z P Z games, it is hilarious that Zerg complains at all. It's like Protoss' complaining that PvT is getting harder. It's like, get over yourselves roflmao. It's honestly a good thing. zvp against good protoss never really been easy. why you think dewalt and bonyth been dominating foreign scene so hard for 6 yrs? we had good zergs. sziky. eon. trutacz. they all got rekt by protoss. First off, nothing in SC is easy. Relatively speaking though, ZvP has been one of the easiest match ups in the game for the better part of 25 years. The reason Dewalt and Bonyth have done so well in the remastered era is because their better than other foreigners lol. They study and play more. They're simply better. I don't think people even grasp the gap of levels between players. I don't think people even recognize how truly bad top foreigners are in comparison to top Koreans. People see a foreigner take a game here and there and think it's close. It ain't. The level of a league like BSL is an absolute joke compared to leagues like ASL. Not one foreigner can even make it out of ASL qualifiers. If there wasn't foreign leagues and everyone just played in the same leagues, you likely wouldn't know whom most of the players you just named even are. You bring up top foreigner Zerg names and think because they struggle against people whom are clearly better than them that it's proof ZvP hasn't historically been one of the easiest match ups in the game for as long as the game has been out? It's like saying because Bisu has owned someone like 815 for the past decade that ZvP is really hard. They're literally on different levels of the game. It's a bad comparison. I simply wouldn't use foreigners as an example at all since their understanding and execution of the game is extremely poor in comparison to actual pros and some of the level gaps between top foreigners are massive. Side note just so y'all don't think I'm completely shitting on foreigners: I will give credit to Dewalt and some of the Chinese players. They are very good and are definitely starting to close the gap but they have a long way to go before being any real threat to the pros. I do sincerely hope it happens one day though.
if you're so smart and know exactly these things and then please tell me how u know how they are better ? they have better mechanic?(not) they practice more? ( maybe ) they smartest ( maybe ) race different(maybe) 3:maybe 1:fact . please man don't make such statements because of your frustration in bw. i have a little bit more experience than you and i I can tell you that there is no z favorite at this level. in pro ? not my level i cant talk about this.
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Dewalt, Mihu, zhanhun and xhiaoshuai are better because they play vs low and mid tier korean pros a lot outside of the ladder.(in adddition to maybe having more talent.)
Ample, Killer, Beast, Scan, Motive, Ruin, Piano nOOB, 815, Barracks, Speed, Hiya play and sometimes coach some of them on a weekly basis. The above mentioned foreigners then soak up the experience and adjust their build orders and decision making based off of what the Koreans did against them. It exposes their weaknesses, it exposes which mistakes get punished and how.
LoveTTT and Woniu also organize sets on a daily basis for chinese vs koreans.
But even with all of this, the Best Foreigners are about as good as the best Korean top amateurs such as HBQ, Prime, Ridesky, Srich, Absolute, Dasu, Brori and etc. These players are close to leveling up and sometimes have peak overperformances.
More exposure to higher level players stimulated growth. Foreigners have to play vs top amateur and low and mid tier pros more to get better. They also need better turnrate like the above mentioned foreigners have vs koreans.
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With all due respect to Sziky, Dewalt and Bonyth - two of the three best non Korean Protoss players - should be compared to Xiaoshuai when it comes to PvZ. He's the best non Korean ZvP player, holding a positive record against Zhanhun (who was one BO3 away from ASL), Bonyth, and tie with Dewalt. Sziky is only the best Western Zerg player.
Dewalt is a Westerner, but his geographical location and practice regime makes him practically a Korean player, much like the Chinese players. His style is very Korean. Bonyth is the only exception in the foreign scene (excluding Chinese) who can get close to Korean amateur level - and I think he's a genius. If he could play BW full time, I think he would already have been in ASL.
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''Dewalt, Mihu, zhanhun and xhiaoshuai are better because they play vs low and mid tier korean pros a lot outside of the ladder.(in adddition to maybe having more talent.)'' yes and except Dewalt, Mihu( sometimes yes), they are losing in BSL and some sm aganst us. more talent.. omg you are incredible. I don't come here anymore
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On April 12 2024 18:18 sas.Sziky wrote:
''Dewalt, Mihu, zhanhun and xhiaoshuai are better because they play vs low and mid tier korean pros a lot outside of the ladder.(in adddition to maybe having more talent.)'' yes and except Dewalt, Mihu( sometimes yes), they are losing in BSL and some sm aganst us. more talent.. omg you are incredible. I don't come here anymore
I said "maybe", which means it is a possibility, not a certainty. I think that latency and geography is definitely a limiting factor. You have the talent but you are in the wrong place in the world. It also does not help that you wanted to stop koreans from participating in weekly tournaments because Bishop, Scan and Parfume were winning them almost every week.
It is the same with muscle training. You have to expose yourself to increasingly more heavy weights or more intense training in order to keep stimulating hypertrophy or strength gains. The more frequent you train your muscle the more often you stimulate growth. it is the same with starcraft. Best foreigners play vs koreans with good turnrates and they do it way more frequently.
If you could more often play vs koreans with good turnrates and adjust your optimizations you would be the best foreigner?
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You are missing the point. It's not about who is the best foreigner, it's about the ease of playing protoss vs zerg.
One thing is clear as day : Sziky has far better mechanics than dewalt and bonyth. But they play protoss, yet you have people like g5 claiming zerg has such an easy time vs protoss, because he himself has never been able to play the matchup.
All sziky was saying is that on his level (top foreigner, amateur level), zerg has no advantadge vs protoss. Something I think is not difficult to agree with.
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On April 12 2024 18:45 Comedy wrote:
You are missing the point. It's not about who is the best foreigner, it's about the ease of playing protoss vs zerg.
One thing is clear as day : Sziky has far better mechanics than dewalt and bonyth. But they play protoss, yet you have people like g5 claiming zerg has such an easy time vs protoss, because he himself has never been able to play the matchup.
All sziky was saying is that on his level (top foreigner, amateur level), zerg has no advantadge vs protoss. Something I think is not difficult to agree with.
Really depends on the map. Some maps have advantage some maps a disadvantage. Using that map advantage though takes a lot of skill and experience. I don't know if I agree with Sziky having better mechanics than Dewalt. He's faster for sure, but faster =/= better mechanics. Watching Dewalt POV I feel he has good and precise mechanics with very little waste.
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On April 12 2024 18:45 Comedy wrote:
You are missing the point. It's not about who is the best foreigner, it's about the ease of playing protoss vs zerg.
One thing is clear as day : Sziky has far better mechanics than dewalt and bonyth. But they play protoss, yet you have people like g5 claiming zerg has such an easy time vs protoss, because he himself has never been able to play the matchup.
All sziky was saying is that on his level (top foreigner, amateur level), zerg has no advantadge vs protoss. Something I think is not difficult to agree with.
This graph clearly disagrees:
![[image loading]](https://i.ibb.co/Qb40CXm/racial-win-rate-vs-time-pvz-selectioncomparison-MMR-Groups.png)
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So when protoss win they are genuises. But when zerg win is a different story. Make it make sense LMAO.
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oke but when are we going to ask the real question that matters.
What is the winrate of Zerg playing vs Zerg?
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On April 12 2024 20:43 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
So when protoss win they are genuises. But when zerg win is a different story. Make it make sense LMAO.
No one is saying this. Did you just get sensitive because I said I think Bonyth is a genius? Which is a reference to the amount of time he has to practice in relation to the amount of tournaments he won. Not saying that you guys have more time to play BW than him. But if you're winning as much as him you're a genius too. But for the moment there is only him that fits the description.
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On April 12 2024 21:28 TMNT wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2024 20:43 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
So when protoss win they are genuises. But when zerg win is a different story. Make it make sense LMAO. No one is saying this. Did you just get sensitive because I said I think Bonyth is a genius? Which is a reference to the amount of time he has to practice in relation to the amount of tournaments he won. Not saying that you guys have more time to play BW than him. But if you're winning as much as him you're a genius too. But for the moment there is only him that fits the description.
Im the first to admit those guys are incredible.I even said this on BSL interviews before or my streams. Im out of the race since 2019. But is really strange that we picking stats to proof something but in other cases it comes to geniuses no ? LOL. Idk who are the best zerg players right now apart from Sziky i dont keep up. But that was an interesting way of explaining why protoss dominates the foreigner scene.
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Bot edit.
User was banned for this post.
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On April 12 2024 21:35 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2024 21:28 TMNT wrote:On April 12 2024 20:43 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
So when protoss win they are genuises. But when zerg win is a different story. Make it make sense LMAO. No one is saying this. Did you just get sensitive because I said I think Bonyth is a genius? Which is a reference to the amount of time he has to practice in relation to the amount of tournaments he won. Not saying that you guys have more time to play BW than him. But if you're winning as much as him you're a genius too. But for the moment there is only him that fits the description. Im the first to admit those guys are incredible.I even said this on BSL interviews before or my streams. Im out of the race since 2019. But is really strange that we picking stats to proof something but in other cases it comes to geniuses no ? LOL. Idk who are the best zerg players right now apart from Sziky i dont keep up. But that was an interesting way of explaining why protoss dominates the foreigner scene.
Protoss is dominating foreign scene but by Protoss what we really mean is Bonyth and Dewalt, isn't it?
And just like I said, Dewalt is practically a Korean player. Is he also the only full time player too? I might be wrong on this, but does he have a day job like you guys? Feels like the amount of practice he has is more than you lot combined, let alone the latency. Despite all that he's still losing to Bonyth which is why I think the latter is at genius level of natural talent.
The foreign scene is just too scattered to draw any conclusion. If you dont want KR, just look at Chinese scene where there are plenty of players who can practice full time in the same conditions. The best of each race are Mihu Xiaoshuai Zhanhun. There is no Protoss domination and the very best is once again a Terran.
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So by that definition Soulkey is a genius in your book ? he is the progamer that play the less. He spend weeks with rain grinding league of legends or just taking day off all the time ( he surely is a genius and his wins have nothing to do with balance right ? ). The thing is that what tells you in those stats that you show about pvz those zergs are not genuises ? How do you know how much a person plays or not ?
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EPT![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/e2C8xak.jpeg)
