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United States1433 Posts
On September 01 2016 01:34 StarFoxeR wrote:how do I deal with people taking hidden expos everywhere and turtling with canons + storm in ZvP ? The games just go on forever and its really frustrating. It feels like I should be able to kill them but just cant. I feel like Im winning but just die when I attack them. http://bwreplays.com/2qy42
You had decent macro and didn't underestimate the power of going to your opponent and just killing him. Attacking his natural wasn't a bad move I'd say. A lot of times when protoss ninja expands they spend a ton of defence there and they don't usually have enough to defend their natural. The moment you snuck two zerglings in and he overreacted by sending all of his probes to your natural you gained a huge advantage.
Here are a few things you should consider:
1)It's a good idea after gaining such a huge advantage to scout all bases for any hidden expansions because that's one of the few ways a tricky player will try to get back into the game. It's important to learn to have units on patrol like zerglings and overlords already scouting all possible locations like at the ramps where cannons can be built. Once the defences are set up it's very hard to break in so the best solution is to stop the ball before it gets rolling right away. Otherwise, you're going to have to wait for drops and defilers for dark swarm to break it. In the case that protoss did make a hidden expo and has lots of defenses set up you can take more bases and take solace that protoss had to spend a lot of static defence he wouldn't have otherwise spent had he taken a closer expo he could protect with his army.
2) When he did a zealot run by to kill your 4th I noticed you didn't have overlords spread across the map or a unit at his front door. You pretty much always want a unit at your opponent's front door and know where his army is constantly. You could've also put your units on a forward position with the lurkers and what not.
3)You lost your composure and started getting tunnel visioned by attacking his natural and then tried pushing up into his ramp only to lose your whole army. There's no need to rush in and take victory like that. Have patience and take the safer route of playing a longer, more methodical game of simply containing your opponent. Your lack of later game planning like not getting hive for defilers or getting drop or retaking your 4th for a very long time I think was caused by your lost composure and tunnel visionedness. Of course, if the opportunity presents itself go ahead and kill your opponent if you can do so.
4) Did you know he expanded at the 6 O'clock? He didn't have many cannons so you could've attempted a break in at that position because it has two ramps. He didn't bother getting HT either for a long time.
5) His bottom left base went undiscovered for the longest time. In general you want to place a zergling at each base and that small action can go such a long way.
6) you never made more drones or saturated your 4th and 5th. I guess you were in too much of the "I want to win now and get it over with" mindset. You never got above 40 drones and in fact went down to and stayed at 27 for a very long time. At that time you want something like 60.
7) You never got drop which is incredibly good at breaking defenses. The protoss' bottom left was incredibly susceptible to one and it would have been done in with one good defiler drop.
8) You didn't spend your money. At some point you had 3k minerals. You also didn't take the gases of your 4th and 5th either.
9) You gave up too early. The protoss had the bottom left 3 bases but you still had 7 bases of your own to work with while the protoss only could have possibly mined 6 bases worth of resources. Protoss didn't have those bases up and running so he wouldn't have mined those bases as long as you could have with an already completed 4th and 5th which will put you far in the lead in the resources. Protoss also had to rebuild their pylons, tech tree, and gateways.
10) Yah, you kind of did a lot of not finishing the job that left protoss to his own devices, setting up plenty of defences. At the top left you didn't fully finish off the buildings there so protoss took their sweet time making cannons and some reavers which you broke but it would've been better to just finish the job off when you had already broken in through most of the defences.
11) Going up to the top left again left protoss the opportunity to retake the natural of the bottom left. Having some units there would've helped a lot.
12) To attack bases that are super turtled you should go for a drop and ground attack with dark swarm. Maybe plague them beforehand to warm them up. You also didn't make many zerglings so that caused the unfortunate scenario of pylons blocking your Ultras and handful of hydra lurk.
13) I didn't bother checking whether or not you got upgrades. You should get them if you didn't.
I'd say the most important takeaways are to simply expand and drone up a lot rather than feel like you have to do damage to protoss if you catch them with a hidden base. Patience pays off and snapping out of impulse won't do you any good. Having good scouting also would eliminate the problem in the first place altogether.
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Here are some general pointers:
- You need excellent map awareness. Prevention is better than cure.
- Hive is absolutely key in ZvP in general. I used to get hive way too late and if you let the protoss get 4 bases (or more) you're in for a SUPER long game that you'll most likely lose!
You can not cost effectively engage 10 cannons with templars/reavers backing it without dark swarm, plague and drops.
- You'll want to stay ahead in bases. If protoss invests a lot in cannons, your standing army should be stronger so long as you don't suicide units unnecessarily.
- Avoid cannons if you can. Let's say he has 20 cannons at a ramp, but zero around his nexus => drop your army at the nexus. Same thing in case he has 20 cannons around a new expansion but barely any around an old or at his natural.
If he's really being an ass and the expansions are basically unbreakable...
- Use plague and dark swarm together with ling/lurker
- You can use parasite to get vision and subsequently spawn broodling templars
- Once all the templar are dead, all your units become infinitely more effective
- Guardians are very effective over cliffs after queens have killed the templar and there aren't any corsairs on the field.
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Thanks guys I appreciate the advice so much. Thanks for looking at the replays.
One dumb question. I have difficulty telling if I have 2 or 3 or 4 worers on gas. Whats the best way to tell?
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by counting them.
2 workers leaves a small gap where there is no worker walking in between your hatch and gas
3 workers looks like a perfectly timed production line
4 workers you see a worker waiting at the gas before the worker in there gets out
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So does anyone know what the exact deal is with hold position, attack and patrol? My understanding has always been (from what I was informed many years ago) that patrol results in quicker turning time on certain units (like the vulture) and hold position gives a faster attacking time (on goons especially) but that might just be because you just have to press H as opposed to A -> click or P -> click
Anyone know if it's true or is it all the same?
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Anyone have a list of some relative timings for Terran ? Day 9's podcast on relative timings was pretty great just wondering if anyone has some ones for T. He started talking about knowing things like when to build factories so that they finish when the unit pops out on your pre existing ones but never gave how to do that.
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On September 04 2016 10:56 StarFoxeR wrote:
Anyone have a list of some relative timings for Terran ? Day 9's podcast on relative timings was pretty great just wondering if anyone has some ones for T. He started talking about knowing things like when to build factories so that they finish when the unit pops out on your pre existing ones but never gave how to do that.
You can check the build time of a factory and compare it to the build time of a goliath/tank.
Goliath is 25 seconds on fastest. I don't know the build time for a factory and tank off the top of my head.
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On September 04 2016 11:42 B-royal wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2016 10:56 StarFoxeR wrote:
Anyone have a list of some relative timings for Terran ? Day 9's podcast on relative timings was pretty great just wondering if anyone has some ones for T. He started talking about knowing things like when to build factories so that they finish when the unit pops out on your pre existing ones but never gave how to do that. You can check the build time of a factory and compare it to the build time of a goliath/tank. Goliath is 25 seconds on fastest. I don't know the build time for a factory and tank off the top of my head.
Factory is 50 seconds and tank is 31.25 seconds
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/bw-strategy/84768-list-of-build-times-on-fastest-speed
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Well, there are a lot of variations on both. One base terran can be 2 rax opening, which you need to scout and sunken up accordingly (while slowly getting to 3 hatch muta), or fast tech which can include speedvults, wraiths against both of which you need hydras (or even tank push) . One base protoss can be 2 gate, where you need to defend with sunks/lings (depends on opening and how many zealots toss makes before tech/expo) or 1 gate gas against which you can go hydra den->lair->hydra speed->lair tech of your choice (2 hatch muta can also be good and hard counters fast reaver)
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On September 04 2016 23:29 ortseam wrote:
Well, there are a lot of variations on both. One base terran can be 2 rax opening, which you need to scout and sunken up accordingly (while slowly getting to 3 hatch muta), or fast tech which can include speedvults, wraiths against both of which you need hydras (or even tank push) . One base protoss can be 2 gate, where you need to defend with sunks/lings (depends on opening and how many zealots toss makes before tech/expo) or 1 gate gas against which you can go hydra den->lair->hydra speed->lair tech of your choice (2 hatch muta can also be good and hard counters fast reaver)
That was really really really helpful thank you.
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ZvT: 1 base terran
Generally you will have decided your opening already before you scout him. If you opened with 12 pool and he has a wall, you are behind. If he decides to go for a factory into vulture, it can arrive as soon as 4 minutes at your natural. Your natural hatch will finish around 3.30 so you'll have to make a sunken immediately.
If you open with 12 hatch, you're good to go. There's A LOT of different things terran can do but generally a safe build order is to get the sunken around 3.30 at your natural, go lair first into zergling speed into hydralisk den.
Try to hide a couple of zerglings on the map to avoid his vulture and to scout the natural and possibly his main base. You can actually infer a lot from the stage of the game and what you see so pay close attention.
How many marines does he have? Is he building a CC at his natural? Does he have a starport? Does he have a machine shop? Etc.
NOTE: if no vulture is leaving his base, it could be that he's just trying to be mislead you by building a wall and his CC in his main. If he went 1 rax => CC (in his main), it should float over to his natural by 4:15 AT THE LATEST.
If:
- your opponent is building a CC at 4 minutes into the game at his natural or even earlier (a CC takes 1 minute and 15 seconds to complete so you can guess when it started based on its health)
- has a vulture out
- has no marines
This means he CAN have a starport (Fantasy build)
If:
- your opponent is building a CC at 4 minutes into the game or even earlier
- has a vulture out
- has more than 1 marine
He CANNOT have a starport
If:
- your opponent is building a CC at 4:20 minutes into the game
- has a vulture out
- has multiple marines
he CAN have a starport.
This is very important since it will determine whether he's going for a wraith or a dropship (+ mines/speed vultures).
If you managed to get the scout and you have inferred that he has a starport and he's continuing to make vultures, he will most likely get a dropship to drop vultures in your main. You will need hydralisks to deal with this.
Another option is that you do NOT see a CC at his natural around this time but there is a vulture on the map. This could for example be a 2 port wraith, a marine/medic drop, a fast tank push.
It's again very important that you try to get as much scouting information.
- Versus a 2 port wraith (2 wraiths arrive at the same time around 5:15 in the game) you will need hydralisks and possibly a spore at both your bases. Most often you will then want to transition into mutalisks with overlord speed in case he gets cloak. Next you try to bring the pressure to him and to see whether he's transitioning.
- Versus a marine/medic drop (can arrive as early as 5:30), you can just get a group of speedlings with a few hydras (to attack the drop ship). The most important thing here is to KNOW where he's dropping, you have to be there before the he can drop all of his units.
- Versus a fast tank push you'll want to build a line of sunkens (1 in front of the other) while you get a group of lings to try to threaten a backstab or to intercept reinforcements. Meanwhile you delay him till your mutalisks are out.
This isn't a comprehensive post, but I think I dealt with the most common builds.
Final note: be wary of a factory being build outside of your base to be floated in and to subsequently produce vultures.
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It's a bit overwhelming to start getting into BW as my only past experience was when I was too young to understand the game. TeamLiquid seams like an active community that is generally welcoming to new players which is refreshing, but I'm still having trouble getting the core aspects of the game down. I was wondering: is there an effective way to get immersed in the game and improve fairly rapidly keeping in mind the current activity in the game? It seems a little harsh to new players. I just want to somehow be entrenched in a more community aspect with like-minded players who are also trying to improve (beginners).
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Welcome to BW. You should visit the channel OP Teamliquid on iccup from time to time.
As for the social part, you should get listed up here: Practice Partner Thread. Also cultivate your friends-list on Iccup. Just ask people if you can add them if they're friendly and helpful.
I personally started out with this guide which is quite long but a good read: How to improve by Ver. The guide stresses macro and mechanics pretty hard, but there are other ways to improve depending on what kind of a learner/player you are. Maybe watching streams or first-person-VoDs helps you more than anything.
For a start: Just pick one race, one matchup, one build-order at a time. Practice things that only concern your play in the singleplayer until you feel comfortable. Find a few friends on your level and maybe a higher-ranked teacher who is willing to watch your games/replays or play against you with the intent to identify and solve your problems.
And right here is the thread to ask all the little things you cannot answer by yourself via the search function. Also definitely use the search function to look through the BW Strategy Forum, there are threads about pretty much everything to be found. Liquidpedia helps in many cases, too, if it's not outdated.
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Very informative and useful post given my inquiry. Thanks a ton man.
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Still having a difficult time picking between Z or T. I really like both. My heart kinda says Z but ZvZ and ZvP seem like a pain to learn/play. On the other hand all 3 T matchups seem fun but T isnt quite as cool as Z with dark swarm lurkers mutas even though mech is super cool and once you get good at it im sure its incredibly fun. Anyone have an opinion on what race is the funnest once you get decent ?
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On September 03 2016 06:08 jello_biafra wrote:
So does anyone know what the exact deal is with hold position, attack and patrol? My understanding has always been (from what I was informed many years ago) that patrol results in quicker turning time on certain units (like the vulture) and hold position gives a faster attacking time (on goons especially) but that might just be because you just have to press H as opposed to A -> click or P -> click
Anyone know if it's true or is it all the same?
theyre not all the same.
i cant give definite answers but from my experience, all units auto attack enemies in range. using this information:
hold issues an instant stop command which causes units to attack whatevers in range. if the unit is already stopped, the hold command does not issue a new command to the unit.
patrol i honestly only use with vultures and mutalisks because those are the only units that attack fast enough to make use of their turn rate. other units dont seem to respond as well with patrol compared to attack and hold.
attack's advantage over hold is that you can select the target (and for me personally its just easier to use since i play other games that use a->click too), but the disadvantage would be that it issues a new command every time you use it, meaning if a unit is already in the motion of attacking and you a->click the unit will refresh its animation causing it to glitch (commonly seen with dragoons).
i could be wrong with everything though. everything i said was based on my experiences and some things i noticed could have just been in my head
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On September 05 2016 08:56 StarFoxeR wrote:
Still having a difficult time picking between Z or T. I really like both. My heart kinda says Z but ZvZ and ZvP seem like a pain to learn/play. On the other hand all 3 T matchups seem fun but T isnt quite as cool as Z with dark swarm lurkers mutas even though mech is super cool and once you get good at it im sure its incredibly fun. Anyone have an opinion on what race is the funnest once you get decent ?
If you haven't really played ZvZ or ZvP you can't make an informed decision. I would play all 3 matchups of both terran and protoss for a while and then decide if I were you. Then choose the one that's the most fun.
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On September 05 2016 09:36 B-royal wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2016 08:56 StarFoxeR wrote:
Still having a difficult time picking between Z or T. I really like both. My heart kinda says Z but ZvZ and ZvP seem like a pain to learn/play. On the other hand all 3 T matchups seem fun but T isnt quite as cool as Z with dark swarm lurkers mutas even though mech is super cool and once you get good at it im sure its incredibly fun. Anyone have an opinion on what race is the funnest once you get decent ? If you haven't really played ZvZ or ZvP you can't make an informed decision. I would play all 3 matchups of both terran and protoss for a while and then decide if I were you. Then choose the one that's the most fun.
Oh Ive played them. Its just when I do I die to zealot corsair or DT and when I play ZvZ Im lost and just die to lings so I really havent figured out how to get to the fun parts of those matchups.
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EPT
