EPTSimple Questions, Simple Answers - Page 274
| Forum Index > Brood War Strategy |
|
Esp1noza
Russian Federation481 Posts
| ||
Kau
Canada3500 Posts
On September 05 2016 09:41 StarFoxeR wrote: Oh Ive played them. Its just when I do I die to zealot corsair or DT and when I play ZvZ Im lost and just die to lings so I really havent figured out how to get to the fun parts of those matchups. Main T and avoid TvT by going Z? | ||
|
Bakuryu
Germany1065 Posts
| ||
|
Maks
Ukraine177 Posts
1-3 units and 4-0 hatcheries - ZerO 1-3 units and 4-0 hatcheries - by.herO 1-4 units and 5-0 hatcheries - effort | ||
|
NoS-Craig
Australia3122 Posts
I get this a lot when I vs Protoss as Terran, or even as Protoss. I have nightmares about protoss. | ||
|
StarFoxeR
68 Posts
| ||
|
NoS-Craig
Australia3122 Posts
But that's just me, I used to play just random scrubs like myself back in the day for fun. | ||
|
Maks
Ukraine177 Posts
On September 05 2016 21:35 StarFoxeR wrote: If Jaedong uses 4-7 for hatcheries are 8 9 0 units ? 8 9 and 0 are unused | ||
|
Highgamer
1444 Posts
On September 05 2016 20:29 NoS-Craig wrote: Does anyone else have their heart rate go berserk in games sometimes. Like when someones dropping the shit out of you? It gets to the point I have to GG because my arms are shaking like hell. I get this a lot when I vs Protoss as Terran, or even as Protoss. I have nightmares about protoss. I had that a lot, not to an extreme, but definitely shaky arms in moments and tension falling off after games. I think it goes away for the most part the more experienced you get, even though it can happen any time (think of Best's expression and looks after getting 3-0ed by July in that final...) Especially as a beginner or not so experienced player, even a normal game of BW, if you try really hard, puts quite an amount of mental stress on you. If the game still confuses you but you try to do really well your brain literally jumps from action to action every second, and I guess if on top of that tension and commitment you perceive an unforseen situation where you could lose the game in an instant, like you know that shit is about to happen, then you can have an adrenalin rush - but the game doesn't end there... We all know Protoss just walks away as a winner with a mediocre engagement vs Terran sometimes - only because the Terran performed just as mediocre. I at least find that Protoss armies have this brute force, and they can turn and attack in every second. They surely can be dealt with if you're prepared, but if not then all of a sudden it hits you like a freight train... Maybe vulture-harrass feels similar to Protoss, or perfectly executed mech-pushes. Terrans engage in scary ways, too.. but generally they have to stop (siege) several times in the process and normally Protoss is attacking into them in the end. edit: forgot to mention recall, lol... if I have nightmares of anything then recalls into the main... | ||
|
StarFoxeR
68 Posts
http://bwreplays.com/bwocg http://bwreplays.com/rtlxe http://bwreplays.com/ejevd | ||
|
Highgamer
1444 Posts
Keep playing the 1rax FE in TvZ, but do it the safe way. Even if the stuff below sounds a little complicated, it's just a matter of knowledge and experience, not a particular skill. Game 1: + Show Spoiler + (I assume you know that normally you start your 2nd depot and get 1 marine out before the CC. Then, after planting your CC, you restart marine production before building your 3rd depot and your 2nd rax. In this game, you can skip the first marine and 2nd depot because you scouted him first, so it's ok like that. But still I would restart building marines before getting the 2nd rax to be safe.) - You play well until his 4 lings arrive - except for the fact that you dont keep scouting with your SCV. Your SCV has to stay in his base watching what he does for as long as possible. Then you see how many lings are coming and when he starts lair. If your SCV dies, always send out another one to see if lings are coming. - When his 4 lings arrived, all it takes to drive them back is to keep all the 4 marines you have at this point close together and close to the ramp. With a little micro you don't lose a single marine if he attacks you here. - You forget to build your academy. - (Because you don't scout) You move out with all your few marines when 12+ lings are running to your natural. Just scout the lings next time, and build a bunker in time. Then all the marines will live and no CC-lifting or what is necessary. On to the next game. Game 2: Problem was wrong scout-timing. - He went 9gas/9pool speedlings, so his lings were even a little later than with 9pool no gas. - You don't send out an SCV at exactly 11 supply (right when the depot finishes and you start the 11. SCV). If you don't see his hatch in the natural on first try, immediatelly send out your 2nd SCV to scout. - If you had done that, one of your 2 SCVs would have seen the lings coming in, even though you scouted him on 2nd try. - It is not safe to skip your 1. marine or plant your CC in the natural if you haven't seen that he went hatch first. Safe is - like I wrote above - 2nd depot, then 1 marine. Then CC if you saw the hatch in the natural. - So, normally you find out if he went hatch first or not before you even have the money to plant your CC. - If you see the lings coming, immediatelly restart building marines throughout, and pull some SCVs to block the ramp. If you have enough time and nerves, 4 can be enough. I assume you know the trick to hold-position SCV (just select them together with a fighter-unit like marine and press H). So you will hold your ramp, build another depot, and start your CC on the highground. Then you proceed with your build and safely take your natural and you're ahead in economy. On to the next game. Game 3: Same scouting problem like in Game 2. - You skip 2nd depot, 1. marine, and take your natural CC when you only scouted one of 3 starting locations of Zerg. - When your scout gets blocked at his ramp, you should just keep your SCV running around his natural, he cannot catch it with slow lings. - Then you realize quickly that lings are not coming, that he's not expanding asap, so he's teching, most likely lurkers. - When you realize that, you know that you have a huge macro-lead if you just keep saturating your 2 bases and survive for now, and so you just have to bunker up in your natural, get marine-range and +1 armor, not let his lurkers runby, and you're safe until he can have drops or something else. - You scout and scan him, play it safe and get tanks and starport. If he tries to play be greedy with few lurkers, you can break out earlier and pressure him. (When you saw his lurkers morphing in front of your natural, you should have spread your marines and sniped one lurker as it popped. Then he has to burrow the other one right there, not close to your mineral line.) I think that is about right, maybe someone else can contribute. 1rax FE in TvP is quite greedy and thus vulnerable to early aggression if you make even one little mistake. Against early zealots you rely solely on good marine- and SCV-control to survive. Against normal goon-builds you have the hassle with the bunker repair because your tank is late, and the tank can get sniped if you're not careful. If your execution is not super-crisp you often end up behind, especially vs 2gate pressure. Even bunker and tank won't protect you sometimes if you're not super aware and get enough SCVs to block and repair in time. FD on the other hand has early factory units, is easier to handle, gives you mines and vultures on the map for map-control. | ||
|
Cryoc
Germany911 Posts
On September 07 2016 03:23 StarFoxeR wrote: Is 1 rax expanding in TvP and ZvT just basically a bad idea for a beginner ? I almost never ever make it to midgame in TvP with that build I think Im not good enough to do it. But I kind of expected that. On the other hand I thought TvZ would be do able. I just die there too. Is my control just not good enough ? I try to double drone scout and I make sure to make a depot/marine early and try to block ramp with scvs if i see it If I cant scout them but I just die to lings still. Another game I overreacted to lings and died to some fast lurker BS. I literally cant win a single game its so frustrating because I feel like if I could get to mid/late my macro could carry me. For now Im gonna learn FD I guess for TvP so Ill post a couple TvZ replays if anyone can check them out Id appreciate. I try to copy what flash does but I dont think I am good enough to comprehend when and why he does things yet. http://bwreplays.com/bwocg http://bwreplays.com/rtlxe http://bwreplays.com/ejevd I watched the games and have some additional comments to Highgamers' ones. It is good to watch what Pros do, but if you want to do it yourself you need to either understand why they do something or play more conservative. For example, in your first game you went for the greediest possible 1 Rax CC build but you can only do that if you scout Zerg on first try doing a 12 hatch (which you didn't). The moment you do not see a hatchery at the first natural, you should immediately start a second depot, build marines and shortly after send you second scout. The second game basically proves what happens when you go for 15 CC without scouting. The third game would have gone the same way if Zerg would have build more than 2 lings at the start, but you died to his fast lurker tech slightly later. You saw no expansion and almost no lings, so you could have known he went for super fast tech. In that case 1 Rax Academy is good reaction. Seeing that you are still quite the beginner, my recommendation would be the following. You say you think your macro would carry you in the later stages, that means you have to play a safe early game. Learn a safer 1 Rax CC build which you can use even if you scout Zerg last. The BO for that would be (continuous SCV production): 9 Depot 11 Rax 12 Scout 14 Depot 15 2nd Scout 2 Marines At the time you reach 400min, you should see the naturals at 2nd and 3rd location and can identify a 12 Hatch build. If 12 Hatch, 19 CC 21/22 Depot ... and then it depends if you want to go for a +1 build or 2 Rax Academy. Until you get more comfortable with that, you should be doing this even if you scout him first, because for beginners it is more important to automate the flow of their build than to have maybe 50 more minerals but screwing up the BO a short time later. The other main point is your scouting SCV. Usually you can check a decent amount of time how many lings are being produced and what the lair timing is and depending on that you know when to build a bunker. If you lose your SCV early you don't have that information. So to be safe you have to assume the worst case. Therefore you should build a bunker near your natural CC shortly after you lost your scout, because he could be going for pure lings at that point. Alternatively you can try to get a second SCV to scout, but that will often get intercepted by the initial lings before it can reach the base. So my suggestion is, go 1Rax Expand with 19 CC every game and get a bunker as soon as you lose your scout. That should get you to mid game 90% of the time without any noticable difference in economy at beginners level. The remaining 10% are ling allins where you did not pull SCVs fast enough. | ||
|
StarFoxeR
68 Posts
| ||
|
StarFoxeR
68 Posts
| ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28727 Posts
There's a reason why I didn't include 'we're equally good' into the equation ; aside from the top level, where cutting corners indeed becomes really important, there usually exists a skill difference. At the level you are at currently, you'll pretty much always enter a game either being the better or the worse player. (Brood war is however such a volatile game, especially at lower levels, that this does not transfer into the winner being predetermined - significantly worse players can beat significantly better ones through smart strategical choices or simple army mismanagement). Playing it safe makes a lot of sense from that entry point; the cost of one bunker is very unlikely to lead to you losing a game, but not building a bunker actually is fairly likely to make you lose. Normally if you don't build the bunker and you lose you would've lost anyway, but I think especially for a new-ish player it is much better to lose after 15 than to lose after 5 minutes. | ||
|
Liquid`Drone
Norway28727 Posts
| ||
|
StarFoxeR
68 Posts
On September 04 2016 23:29 ortseam wrote: Well, there are a lot of variations on both. One base terran can be 2 rax opening, which you need to scout and sunken up accordingly (while slowly getting to 3 hatch muta), or fast tech which can include speedvults, wraiths against both of which you need hydras (or even tank push) . One base protoss can be 2 gate, where you need to defend with sunks/lings (depends on opening and how many zealots toss makes before tech/expo) or 1 gate gas against which you can go hydra den->lair->hydra speed->lair tech of your choice (2 hatch muta can also be good and hard counters fast reaver) Do I just go 2 hatch vs the 1 base protoss and terran when doing these responses ? sorry for all the questions guys | ||
|
B-royal
Belgium1330 Posts
| ||
|
ortseam
996 Posts
On September 08 2016 03:17 StarFoxeR wrote: Should I basically just copy builds from TL wiki to start with and them adjust them over time ? Or should I just keep writing things down pros do and copy that ? Keep in mind pros often get extremely greedy online because 1. they play standard against each other all the time 2. they are really good at using workers defensively | ||
|
StarFoxeR
68 Posts
| ||
| ||
