EPTI often don't actually end up having exactly 4 hatches in those two bases and I end up cycling through expansion hatcheries (make sure to have good rally points on those though) when in macro mode, but there is quite some value to putting several hatcheries in the same screen to make macroing easier.
Simple Questions, Simple Answers - Page 275
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28518 Posts
I often don't actually end up having exactly 4 hatches in those two bases and I end up cycling through expansion hatcheries (make sure to have good rally points on those though) when in macro mode, but there is quite some value to putting several hatcheries in the same screen to make macroing easier. | ||
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B-royal
Belgium1330 Posts
I played this game yesterday and am watching the replay, this guy just warped in two cannons even though his forge is dead. + Show Spoiler + http://bwreplays.com/3qy42 The mystery in question happens around 7:20-7:25 edit: Just tested it in a custom game and apparently it works! | ||
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McRatyn
Poland901 Posts
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StarFoxeR
68 Posts
http://bwreplays.com/awoq6 http://bwreplays.com/n3vs7 TvP and TvT seem so winnable in comparison. But I just get destroyed by zerg any advice ? | ||
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Sero
United States692 Posts
On September 12 2016 22:50 StarFoxeR wrote: I have zero confidence in TvZ its a really horrible feeling. I dont know why I suck so terribly at this matchup but I do. I have zero confidence in myself vs Zerg. http://bwreplays.com/awoq6 http://bwreplays.com/n3vs7 TvP and TvT seem so winnable in comparison. But I just get destroyed by zerg any advice ? Links aren't working for me. | ||
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B-royal
Belgium1330 Posts
On September 12 2016 22:50 StarFoxeR wrote: I have zero confidence in TvZ its a really horrible feeling. I dont know why I suck so terribly at this matchup but I do. I have zero confidence in myself vs Zerg. http://bwreplays.com/awoq6 http://bwreplays.com/n3vs7 TvP and TvT seem so winnable in comparison. But I just get destroyed by zerg any advice ? Come on man. Did you even watch the replays yourself? Starcraft is a difficult game but the mistakes at your level of play should be very apparent. 1. You're not following a standard build order, but it was still "ok" until a certain point. 2. You essentially stopped producing scvs after you had 24 (I think you maybe produced as few as 2-3 from your second CC). 3. You're building a ton of marines but no turrets and you had a single medic accompany a 20+ marine army. You even stopped mining gas at one moment. 4. You just say fuck it I'm doing this attack while my entire mineral line is getting obliterated. That's the first game summed up in 4 easy points. Game 2 is literally the same. Now here's what you have to do when seeing an opponent go lurkers. 1. Be aggressive with a group of marine medic, essentially outside his natural. You do NOT want him to have you pinned in your base. 2. Get a bunker or two and a turret near the bridge at your natural. 3. Get a factory/starport for tanks and vessels. PS: I'm not being dismissive or trying to mock you, please take this advice in a positive manner. | ||
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StarFoxeR
68 Posts
Thanks that is helpful seriously taking the time to look at my replays means a lot. I dont mind you kicking my ass verbally if I need it =) | ||
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Highgamer
1373 Posts
Generally people will tell you "TvZ is the easier matchup for Terran" - but they mainly talk about the top-level where Terrans are superb and can use every advantage, or they talk from the perspective of a person that watched/played BW for more than a decade and has tons of specific knowledge about that matchup. Learning TvZ from scratch today might be even harder than the other two matchups because a) you meet many more Protoss players (and you're happy when you meet a Terran at all...). Minor issue if you know people, more importantly b) the variety of Zerg-strategies and tactics against Terran is much wider compared to what PvT and TvT have to offer on a fundamental level. And in a way Zerg oftentimes goes from one extreme to the other, I think at the core that's due to the larva-mechanic. Some "crushing defeats" in TvZ were actually narrow losses where Zerg put all his eggs in one basket (and would have lost horribly if you knew what to do) - but if you don't understand why that is, you become desperate. At least I think that is part of my issue as well. If you play TvP for example, you have to learn to scout/deal with Reaver or DT, and apart from that it is Goon+Zealots+Arbiter for the most part (sometimes High Templars, sometimes Carriers). You can always opt for playing it safe, take your bases, turtle and push, roughly speaking, without ever facing an entirely desperate situation. Protoss can be more aggressive or more macro-oriented, but overall it's about one or two big fights on the ground, mech vs gateway-army, in the late mid- or already lategame. + Show Spoiler + Note that this is a simplification. Of course, the more skilled your opponents, the more they will force accurately fitting responses concerning your timings and tactics. The variation is high in every matchup, but in TvP the broad idea is easier to grasp imo, the adaptations are much more subtle. In TvZ on the other hand you have to play completely differently against a passive or an aggressive opponent, and normally you have to be aggressive with armies that Zerg should be able to crush eventually. Sometimes you have to punish Zerg, sometimes you only have to trade armies for a while, sometimes you just cannot attack them behind sunkens/swarm. It's hard to make out the right goal oftentimes. Furthermore: Facing mass lings or lurkers or mutas requires completely different defensive reactions (including 100% precise building-placement and uses of workers) or aggressive movements with your army. In the lategame, not only do you more or less have to make a complete tech-switch (including building factories in different locations or an already barrack-filled-base, while managing mixed armies of bio-mech for a while), you also face entirely different army compositions regularly with Zerg's options of defiler, ultra, guardian, + or - all the shit from the midgame. Zerg can vary his build order unexpectedly or almost unnoticed (if you're a beginner) and go 100% army or 100% economy, Zerg can switch/enrich the tech-route by adding one or two buildings, Zerg can save up larva and alter the composition instantly. This means that in TvZ it's even more important that you find a practice partner who agrees on playing only one (standard) build against you for many consecutive times, preferably 3hatch-muta into defiler-lategame, so that you can even get a grasp on what to do overall, get used to the multitasking that is required (e.g. to macro and micro at the same time for 4-5 minutes during the muta-pressure-phase... or to be active with a bio-tank-vessel army while expanding and switching to mech). But: Even before that, it is important that you get your problems out of the way. I doubt that, at the moment, you can smoothly play a game even without opponent where you go from 1rax FE to 2base-bio-tank-vessel midgame setup into 4 base mech-lategame without major macro issues. Of course you can say you don't want to do dry runs, want to jump right into the ladder games, but in the beginning, if you want to get better, BW is just all about working on your own game... (and believe me: that is the easy part... and it's fun to experience how that practice pays off, to see how much control you gained over this game) | ||
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Cryoc
Germany909 Posts
On September 14 2016 06:36 Highgamer wrote: But: Even before that, it is important that you get your problems out of the way. I doubt that, at the moment, you can smoothly play a game even without opponent where you go from 1rax FE to 2base-bio-tank-vessel midgame setup into 4 base mech-lategame without major macro issues. Of course you can say you don't want to do dry runs, want to jump right into the ladder games, but in the beginning, if you want to get better, BW is just all about working on your own game... (and believe me: that is the easy part... and it's fun to experience how that practice pays off, to see how much control you gained over this game) When he can do that, he will probably be A+ on ICCUP already. Dry runs are probably the most efficient way to go, but he has still huge flaws in the first 6 minutes of the game, so if he just works on the build order execution until the time the first mutalisks or lurkers come into play, that would already be a major improvement. On September 12 2016 22:50 StarFoxeR wrote: I have zero confidence in TvZ its a really horrible feeling. I dont know why I suck so terribly at this matchup but I do. I have zero confidence in myself vs Zerg. http://bwreplays.com/awoq6 http://bwreplays.com/n3vs7 TvP and TvT seem so winnable in comparison. But I just get destroyed by zerg any advice ? From glancing over the replays you don't seem to know that a +1 4/5 Rax build is usually only viable vs a 3 Hatch opening. Your opponent went gas after 2 Hatch in both games, so you should switch to a 2 Rax Academy build (see here). If you cannot handle that yet, go for 2 Rax Academy every game, that is viable vs 2 and 3 Hatch play. Another general advice is to build a couple of medics as soon as your academy finishes. Only with medics your marines will become scary. | ||
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Highgamer
1373 Posts
On September 14 2016 07:30 Cryoc wrote: When he can do that, he will probably be A+ on ICCUP already. Dry runs are probably the most efficient way to go, but he has still huge flaws in the first 6 minutes of the game, so if he just works on the build order execution until the time the first mutalisks or lurkers come into play, that would already be a major improvement. Well... I can do that, but it doesn't make me A+ (I never wrote 'perfectly without even minor issues' ^^)... I guess you're joking - or cannot "unsee" all the things you see in a real game that don't throw you off since a long time. Or you're more gifted of course xD. And of course I would expect him to start from step 1, and restart the game as often as necessary if even the initial build-order is still too much, sorry if I didn't make that clear. | ||
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StarFoxeR
68 Posts
On September 14 2016 07:30 Cryoc wrote: From glancing over the replays you don't seem to know that a +1 4/5 Rax build is usually only viable vs a 3 Hatch opening. Your opponent went gas after 2 Hatch in both games, so you should switch to a 2 Rax Academy build (see here). If you cannot handle that yet, go for 2 Rax Academy every game, that is viable vs 2 and 3 Hatch play. Another general advice is to build a couple of medics as soon as your academy finishes. Only with medics your marines will become scary. see these are the little things I dont know about trying to copy koreans I miss little pieces of crucial info thankfully you guys helping me to clear this up for me before it takes me 1000 games to figure out every time I post here I get so much new/necessary info thanks again | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8593 Posts
On September 14 2016 10:39 StarFoxeR wrote: see these are the little things I dont know about trying to copy koreans I miss little pieces of crucial info thankfully you guys helping me to clear this up for me before it takes me 1000 games to figure out every time I post here I get so much new/necessary info thanks again when you watch pros and you read stuff here always question the reasoning behind it. you learn slower and you struggle because you blindly copy builds and advice without knowing why youre doing what youre doing. instead of saying "ok next time ill just go 2 rax academy" your post should have been "why is +1 4/5 rax not viable against 2 hatch?". | ||
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Endymion
United States3701 Posts
a lot of terrans (and zergs) misunderstand the point of mutalisks in midgame zvt as well.. if you kill 5 or 6 mutas, you can literally kill zerg's 3rd before he can defend it with lurkers without like any opposition. so while those crazy aggressive muta zergs might be scary, they're generally playing super risky if they're losing a lot of mutas.. of course there will be kr zergs that will be just as aggressive and not lose mutas, but that's a different story. long story short the point of mutas is to keep you in your base until the zerg has other ways to defend herself, be it lurkers or a quick hive or whatever. the nuance in teching is what makes zvt so fun for a zerg, but lots of newer zergs just don't take advantage and blindly tech.. for instance, you know how i said if zerg loses a lot of mutas he has the potential to lose the midgame?? well, if you lose 8 marines and 2 medics without any muta kills, zerg can just say fuck it and probably take his 4th or 5th before hive and just bank off of her muta control to 1 deny scouting without scans and 2 kill anything short of a full army with vessels and tanks. the time delay of you needing to rebuild marines/medics pretty safely gives her time to get either defiler tech or a large enough ling lurker army to just crush you the minute you walk outside your natural.. zvt might seem scary but imo it's the best matchup in broodwar, partly due to its nuanced knowledge requirements and partly due to the intense micro/macro mechanical requirements in all stages of the game. you might as well just start having it be your favorite matchup because it's the one you'll end up loving the most, it has the least amount of BS :p | ||
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Cryoc
Germany909 Posts
On September 14 2016 07:57 Highgamer wrote: Well... I can do that, but it doesn't make me A+ (I never wrote 'perfectly without even minor issues' ^^)... I guess you're joking - or cannot "unsee" all the things you see in a real game that don't throw you off since a long time. Or you're more gifted of course xD. And of course I would expect him to start from step 1, and restart the game as often as necessary if even the initial build-order is still too much, sorry if I didn't make that clear. When I was training serious I would do a lot of dry runs to get a build down. Granted I also look at more subtle things to improve my build. But I would probably need like 2-3 days of dry runs to be able to do the probably most complex terran build like the mech switch after a +1 4 Rax opening into 1 vessel 3 tank push without getting hard supply blocked or floating 2k+ minerals (assuming constant SCV production until like 60) which I would consider major flaws. | ||
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Endymion
United States3701 Posts
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8593 Posts
pure mechanics training and apm training can be done in single player. practice partners are useful for when you want to learn to adapt and change your builds or whatever you are doing to suit the game. you are improving your game sense pretty much, but if you dont have the basic mechanics to support it anyway its useless. | ||
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Endymion
United States3701 Posts
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B-royal
Belgium1330 Posts
For example first you learn how to identify a 1 rax FE into gas for +1 or academy build by counting marines at a certain time point: 8-10 marines at 5:10. (more likely to be on the lower spectrum) Next you learn that in a regular 12 hatch opening in to 3 hatch your speed finishes exactly at 5:10. Now you know that you can count the marines at the time that your speed finishes. In a regular 1 rax FE into 2 rax however terran can have 12-14 marines at this point in time (most likely 12 cause they'll build 2 medics instead). Generally there will be a difference of 3-4 marines at this time point. If you get really good at this, you can even count the marines earlier than 5:10 and decide how many lings you want based on this information (really difficult though since terran can have bad macro, or may be cutting corners, may be hiding marines at his ramp...). | ||
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Cryoc
Germany909 Posts
On September 14 2016 19:28 evilfatsh1t wrote: id choose practice partners over single player training only after i know im capable of keeping minerals down even in heated situations. pure mechanics training and apm training can be done in single player. practice partners are useful for when you want to learn to adapt and change your builds or whatever you are doing to suit the game. you are improving your game sense pretty much, but if you dont have the basic mechanics to support it anyway its useless. I agree. The problem with playing only vs other opponents is, that it is hard to fix any macro issues that happen during critical times. Prime example for me would be the mech transition after starting the 3 tank/1 vessel push. As this is a pretty important stage in the game and a very micro intensive one it happens very often to me that I forget about the mech transition a lot longer than I would like to and just macro from the existing facilities because of all the ongoing action. And this busy timing will always be there so you will take a long time to figure out a smooth transition by only playing vs humans. When dry running it, you can tell much faster when your income increased enough to warrant the expansion and factories. From my experience it makes you much more aware of those timings in real games, so you actually know to spend some time doing the transition right now instead of only microing and basically depending on your push to win the game. | ||
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StarFoxeR
68 Posts
On September 14 2016 15:23 evilfatsh1t wrote: when you watch pros and you read stuff here always question the reasoning behind it. you learn slower and you struggle because you blindly copy builds and advice without knowing why youre doing what youre doing. instead of saying "ok next time ill just go 2 rax academy" your post should have been "why is +1 4/5 rax not viable against 2 hatch?". well I didnt ask because it made sense to me it felt like I never had the tech quickly enough to deal with the mutas and lurkers showing up early | ||
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