On February 21 2026 07:58 WGT-Baal wrote: I got it thx and edited the triggers and the map to have a drone instead of a probe for PvZ so it doesn't count towards supply
Yea I used the PvT one and PvZ one and both had an SCV vs Zealot so it was 0 healing. Probe and Drone are more immediately punishing but easier long term. It took me about 2 weeks to get my first win when I first played but I was a lowly D- ICCup scrub. After 2 weeks I felt my play against people improve but I still found strategic choices to be more impactful. Still, felt nice to coast at 220-250 APM in 1v1. Felt like a baby progamer 😂
are armour or shield upgrades worthwhile as a Protoss when VS Terran 2-1 seige tanks are 70+10, so is it just a waste or is there still value in getting these upgrades
I’ve always felt like it makes no difference but progamers all go double forge in macro PvTs and they know more than we do. The answer must logically be that it is worth it.
I m not sure about shield but from what i ve read/seen, armour is useful for vulture shots and in the outer radius of the tank splash damage.
It seems the logic is this: attack to +3 priority. 2nd forge: armour +1 and then you have the following decision tree: if you plan on going carrier any time later: get +1 shield before +2 armour for the breakpoint vs goliaths on your interceptors, otherwise go +2 armour. once +3 weapon is done you should have a lot of income on multiple bases so you continue upgrading because, as padotube and best say it, "you might as well"
On March 12 2026 13:36 psicho wrote: are armour or shield upgrades worthwhile as a Protoss when VS Terran 2-1 seige tanks are 70+10, so is it just a waste or is there still value in getting these upgrades
The mechanics of pvt vs pvz are totally different. Due to recent theory setbacks, protoss players cripple their economy with crap FE builds however as a whole, the order of economic advantage is p>z>t when it comes to vespene gas expansions. Terrans need the armory since the flash revolution is making the most of what little economy terrans have a.k.a siege tanks. Protoss is not like that. There was a Best game somewhere that proved you are almost not warranted to upgrade vs zerg. You just need to rush your economy. Terrans are the polar opposite. You try keeping your tanks alive.
On March 12 2026 13:36 psicho wrote: are armour or shield upgrades worthwhile as a Protoss when VS Terran 2-1 seige tanks are 70+10, so is it just a waste or is there still value in getting these upgrades
The mechanics of pvt vs pvz are totally different. Due to recent theory setbacks, protoss players cripple their economy with crap FE builds however as a whole, the order of economic advantage is p>z>t when it comes to vespene gas expansions. Terrans need the armory since the flash revolution is making the most of what little economy terrans have a.k.a siege tanks. Protoss is not like that. There was a Best game somewhere that proved you are almost not warranted to upgrade vs zerg. You just need to rush your economy. Terrans are the polar opposite. You try keeping your tanks alive.
Would love to see this PvZ from Best where upgrades were not warranted.
On March 12 2026 13:36 psicho wrote: are armour or shield upgrades worthwhile as a Protoss when VS Terran 2-1 seige tanks are 70+10, so is it just a waste or is there still value in getting these upgrades
The mechanics of pvt vs pvz are totally different. Due to recent theory setbacks, protoss players cripple their economy with crap FE builds however as a whole, the order of economic advantage is p>z>t when it comes to vespene gas expansions. Terrans need the armory since the flash revolution is making the most of what little economy terrans have a.k.a siege tanks. Protoss is not like that. There was a Best game somewhere that proved you are almost not warranted to upgrade vs zerg. You just need to rush your economy. Terrans are the polar opposite. You try keeping your tanks alive.
Would love to see this PvZ from Best where upgrades were not warranted.
Good news and bad news. It was Mini vs Ssak game most likely. He is 1-1 at 21 minute mark. I had it marked up in my mind as no upgrade at 14 minute mark game. Let me rewatch the final game and get back to you.
Speaking of upgrades, is the fast 2-0 in pvz after a +1 speedlot poke just dead?
Or is the decision tree like this: +1 weapon If hydras: +1 armour all the way to +3 armour because your units are used to tank so that the ht melt everything. 2nd forge at some point so you re not naked vs crackling and hive later
If not hydra (ling/muta into an expected fast Hive) -> +3 weapons asap still to stay ahead of ling carapace? Or is that outdated now?
On March 12 2026 13:36 psicho wrote: are armour or shield upgrades worthwhile as a Protoss when VS Terran 2-1 seige tanks are 70+10, so is it just a waste or is there still value in getting these upgrades
The mechanics of pvt vs pvz are totally different. Due to recent theory setbacks, protoss players cripple their economy with crap FE builds however as a whole, the order of economic advantage is p>z>t when it comes to vespene gas expansions. Terrans need the armory since the flash revolution is making the most of what little economy terrans have a.k.a siege tanks. Protoss is not like that. There was a Best game somewhere that proved you are almost not warranted to upgrade vs zerg. You just need to rush your economy. Terrans are the polar opposite. You try keeping your tanks alive.
Would love to see this PvZ from Best where upgrades were not warranted.
Good news and bad news. It was Mini vs Ssak game most likely. He is 1-1 at 21 minute mark. I had it marked up in my mind as no upgrade at 14 minute mark game. Let me rewatch the final game and get back to you. https://youtu.be/watch?v=mNZm94_cXk8&pp=ygUQbWluaSBzc2FrIGFzbCAyMA==
Hold on. So, if I am understanding correctly, your evidence for why upgrades are "almost not warranted" in PvZ... is a PvT between Mini and Ssak?
On March 12 2026 13:36 psicho wrote: are armour or shield upgrades worthwhile as a Protoss when VS Terran 2-1 seige tanks are 70+10, so is it just a waste or is there still value in getting these upgrades
The mechanics of pvt vs pvz are totally different. Due to recent theory setbacks, protoss players cripple their economy with crap FE builds however as a whole, the order of economic advantage is p>z>t when it comes to vespene gas expansions. Terrans need the armory since the flash revolution is making the most of what little economy terrans have a.k.a siege tanks. Protoss is not like that. There was a Best game somewhere that proved you are almost not warranted to upgrade vs zerg. You just need to rush your economy. Terrans are the polar opposite. You try keeping your tanks alive.
Would love to see this PvZ from Best where upgrades were not warranted.
Good news and bad news. It was Mini vs Ssak game most likely. He is 1-1 at 21 minute mark. I had it marked up in my mind as no upgrade at 14 minute mark game. Let me rewatch the final game and get back to you. https://youtu.be/watch?v=mNZm94_cXk8&pp=ygUQbWluaSBzc2FrIGFzbCAyMA==
Hold on. So, if I am understanding correctly, your evidence for why upgrades are "almost not warranted" in PvZ... is a PvT between Mini and Ssak?
On March 12 2026 13:36 psicho wrote: are armour or shield upgrades worthwhile as a Protoss when VS Terran 2-1 seige tanks are 70+10, so is it just a waste or is there still value in getting these upgrades
The mechanics of pvt vs pvz are totally different. Due to recent theory setbacks, protoss players cripple their economy with crap FE builds however as a whole, the order of economic advantage is p>z>t when it comes to vespene gas expansions. Terrans need the armory since the flash revolution is making the most of what little economy terrans have a.k.a siege tanks. Protoss is not like that. There was a Best game somewhere that proved you are almost not warranted to upgrade vs zerg. You just need to rush your economy. Terrans are the polar opposite. You try keeping your tanks alive.
Would love to see this PvZ from Best where upgrades were not warranted.
Good news and bad news. It was Mini vs Ssak game most likely. He is 1-1 at 21 minute mark. I had it marked up in my mind as no upgrade at 14 minute mark game. Let me rewatch the final game and get back to you. https://youtu.be/watch?v=mNZm94_cXk8&pp=ygUQbWluaSBzc2FrIGFzbCAyMA==
Hold on. So, if I am understanding correctly, your evidence for why upgrades are "almost not warranted" in PvZ... is a PvT between Mini and Ssak?
Well, I could only remember from Ssak's name. Normally I thought it was a Best game and last asl he mostly played pvz. I never claimed I had good memory.
On March 12 2026 13:36 psicho wrote: are armour or shield upgrades worthwhile as a Protoss when VS Terran 2-1 seige tanks are 70+10, so is it just a waste or is there still value in getting these upgrades
The mechanics of pvt vs pvz are totally different. Due to recent theory setbacks, protoss players cripple their economy with crap FE builds however as a whole, the order of economic advantage is p>z>t when it comes to vespene gas expansions. Terrans need the armory since the flash revolution is making the most of what little economy terrans have a.k.a siege tanks. Protoss is not like that. There was a Best game somewhere that proved you are almost not warranted to upgrade vs zerg. You just need to rush your economy. Terrans are the polar opposite. You try keeping your tanks alive.
Would love to see this PvZ from Best where upgrades were not warranted.
Good news and bad news. It was Mini vs Ssak game most likely. He is 1-1 at 21 minute mark. I had it marked up in my mind as no upgrade at 14 minute mark game. Let me rewatch the final game and get back to you. https://youtu.be/watch?v=mNZm94_cXk8&pp=ygUQbWluaSBzc2FrIGFzbCAyMA==
Hold on. So, if I am understanding correctly, your evidence for why upgrades are "almost not warranted" in PvZ... is a PvT between Mini and Ssak?
Well, I could only remember from Ssak's name. Normally I thought it was a Best game and last asl he mostly played pvz. I never claimed I had good memory.
I'm still confused as to how anything between Mini, Best, and Ssak could have any bearing on PvZ upgrades, but maybe it is a mutual language barrier. Can you explain one more time why upgrades are not warranted in PvZ?
On March 12 2026 13:36 psicho wrote: are armour or shield upgrades worthwhile as a Protoss when VS Terran 2-1 seige tanks are 70+10, so is it just a waste or is there still value in getting these upgrades
Our friend asked about pvt. Since my zerg brain completely glosses over stuff I don't understand such as terrans, I thought that game was pvz until I recalled Ssak's name from some discussion I've had during the tournament. PS: I was trying to deduce pvt from a pvz game when the game was in fact pvt, so no need to compare to pvz. It directly answers his question. Someday I might come across a huge treasure trove of a game if I find the same no upgrade pvz game. You know how much I hate FE, I just might out of sheer passion, though not as likely. You can find my post on upgrades. Zerg really challenges protoss with upgrades.
On March 12 2026 13:36 psicho wrote: are armour or shield upgrades worthwhile as a Protoss when VS Terran 2-1 seige tanks are 70+10, so is it just a waste or is there still value in getting these upgrades
The mechanics of pvt vs pvz are totally different. Due to recent theory setbacks, protoss players cripple their economy with crap FE builds however as a whole, the order of economic advantage is p>z>t when it comes to vespene gas expansions. Terrans need the armory since the flash revolution is making the most of what little economy terrans have a.k.a siege tanks. Protoss is not like that. There was a Best game somewhere that proved you are almost not warranted to upgrade vs zerg. You just need to rush your economy. Terrans are the polar opposite. You try keeping your tanks alive.
Would love to see this PvZ from Best where upgrades were not warranted.
Good news and bad news. It was Mini vs Ssak game most likely. He is 1-1 at 21 minute mark. I had it marked up in my mind as no upgrade at 14 minute mark game. Let me rewatch the final game and get back to you. https://youtu.be/watch?v=mNZm94_cXk8&pp=ygUQbWluaSBzc2FrIGFzbCAyMA==
Hold on. So, if I am understanding correctly, your evidence for why upgrades are "almost not warranted" in PvZ... is a PvT between Mini and Ssak?
Well, I could only remember from Ssak's name. Normally I thought it was a Best game and last asl he mostly played pvz. I never claimed I had good memory.
I'm still confused as to how anything between Mini, Best, and Ssak could have any bearing on PvZ upgrades, but maybe it is a mutual language barrier. Can you explain one more time why upgrades are not warranted in PvZ?
I think I solved why I brought pvz into the frame. My mind picked up from where I left off the last time I tried explaining things. If you look heretl.net, I did a deep dive on pvz upgrades. I must have struck a bias and remembered that while trying to remember a pvt example.
On March 12 2026 13:36 psicho wrote: are armour or shield upgrades worthwhile as a Protoss when VS Terran 2-1 seige tanks are 70+10, so is it just a waste or is there still value in getting these upgrades
The mechanics of pvt vs pvz are totally different. Due to recent theory setbacks, protoss players cripple their economy with crap FE builds however as a whole, the order of economic advantage is p>z>t when it comes to vespene gas expansions. Terrans need the armory since the flash revolution is making the most of what little economy terrans have a.k.a siege tanks. Protoss is not like that. There was a Best game somewhere that proved you are almost not warranted to upgrade vs zerg. You just need to rush your economy. Terrans are the polar opposite. You try keeping your tanks alive.
Would love to see this PvZ from Best where upgrades were not warranted.
Good news and bad news. It was Mini vs Ssak game most likely. He is 1-1 at 21 minute mark. I had it marked up in my mind as no upgrade at 14 minute mark game. Let me rewatch the final game and get back to you. https://youtu.be/watch?v=mNZm94_cXk8&pp=ygUQbWluaSBzc2FrIGFzbCAyMA==
Hold on. So, if I am understanding correctly, your evidence for why upgrades are "almost not warranted" in PvZ... is a PvT between Mini and Ssak?
Well, I could only remember from Ssak's name. Normally I thought it was a Best game and last asl he mostly played pvz. I never claimed I had good memory.
I'm still confused as to how anything between Mini, Best, and Ssak could have any bearing on PvZ upgrades, but maybe it is a mutual language barrier. Can you explain one more time why upgrades are not warranted in PvZ?
I think I solved why I brought pvz into the frame. My mind picked up from where I left off the last time I tried explaining things. If you look heretl.net, I did a deep dive on pvz upgrades. I must have struck a bias and remembered that while trying to remember a pvt example.
Well I answered the question, so help yourself. You don't need upgrades in a pvt like I stated previously.
On March 19 2026 02:09 WGT-Baal wrote: Speaking of upgrades, is the fast 2-0 in pvz after a +1 speedlot poke just dead?
Or is the decision tree like this: +1 weapon If hydras: +1 armour all the way to +3 armour because your units are used to tank so that the ht melt everything. 2nd forge at some point so you re not naked vs crackling and hive later
If not hydra (ling/muta into an expected fast Hive) -> +3 weapons asap still to stay ahead of ling carapace? Or is that outdated now?
You can look over to my post on the subjecttl.net. +3 is the wrong upgrade tree. +2+1 is the only survival upgrade. +3 doesn't change the odds, same as +1 shields. Only +1 armor after 2 weapons upgrade. This creates an interesting pattern. 1 forge and 2 forge upgrade paths vs 1 evolution chamber vs 2 evolution chamber upgrade paths. Whomever doesn't rush upgrades has faster economy. I go on to say if zerg can anticipate for 7.14% weaker hydralisks, they can really wall in protoss with just 4 hatcheries and have better economy as a bonus. I said the same for protoss but it doesn't work exactly. You need 2+3+1 vs 0-0 hydralisks for twice stronger dragoons and zealots. Economy works better vs terrans since they don't move so fast, they are easier to wall ins than zerg. PS: it might be missed why twice stronger is important benchmark since dragoons are 71.4% more expensive than hydralisks on a cost basis. To be on parity you need to fulfill some insane requirements such as, • 1/3/3 vs zerg 0/0, • 2/2/0 vs zerg 0/0, or 2/3/0 vs zerg 0/1, • 2/1/2 vs zerg 0/0, or 2/2/2 vs zerg 0/1, • 2/3/1 vs zerg 1/0, • 2/2/3 vs zerg 1/0, or 2/3/3 vs zerg 1/1 are the only matchups that are on cost parity between dragoons and hydralisks.
On March 12 2026 13:36 psicho wrote: are armour or shield upgrades worthwhile as a Protoss when VS Terran 2-1 seige tanks are 70+10, so is it just a waste or is there still value in getting these upgrades
The mechanics of pvt vs pvz are totally different. Due to recent theory setbacks, protoss players cripple their economy with crap FE builds however as a whole, the order of economic advantage is p>z>t when it comes to vespene gas expansions. Terrans need the armory since the flash revolution is making the most of what little economy terrans have a.k.a siege tanks. Protoss is not like that. There was a Best game somewhere that proved you are almost not warranted to upgrade vs zerg. You just need to rush your economy. Terrans are the polar opposite. You try keeping your tanks alive.
Would love to see this PvZ from Best where upgrades were not warranted.
Good news and bad news. It was Mini vs Ssak game most likely. He is 1-1 at 21 minute mark. I had it marked up in my mind as no upgrade at 14 minute mark game. Let me rewatch the final game and get back to you. https://youtu.be/watch?v=mNZm94_cXk8&pp=ygUQbWluaSBzc2FrIGFzbCAyMA==
Hold on. So, if I am understanding correctly, your evidence for why upgrades are "almost not warranted" in PvZ... is a PvT between Mini and Ssak?
Well, I could only remember from Ssak's name. Normally I thought it was a Best game and last asl he mostly played pvz. I never claimed I had good memory.
I'm still confused as to how anything between Mini, Best, and Ssak could have any bearing on PvZ upgrades, but maybe it is a mutual language barrier. Can you explain one more time why upgrades are not warranted in PvZ?
I think I solved why I brought pvz into the frame. My mind picked up from where I left off the last time I tried explaining things. If you look heretl.net, I did a deep dive on pvz upgrades. I must have struck a bias and remembered that while trying to remember a pvt example.
On March 12 2026 13:36 psicho wrote: are armour or shield upgrades worthwhile as a Protoss when VS Terran 2-1 seige tanks are 70+10, so is it just a waste or is there still value in getting these upgrades
The mechanics of pvt vs pvz are totally different. Due to recent theory setbacks, protoss players cripple their economy with crap FE builds however as a whole, the order of economic advantage is p>z>t when it comes to vespene gas expansions. Terrans need the armory since the flash revolution is making the most of what little economy terrans have a.k.a siege tanks. Protoss is not like that. There was a Best game somewhere that proved you are almost not warranted to upgrade vs zerg. You just need to rush your economy. Terrans are the polar opposite. You try keeping your tanks alive.
Would love to see this PvZ from Best where upgrades were not warranted.
Good news and bad news. It was Mini vs Ssak game most likely. He is 1-1 at 21 minute mark. I had it marked up in my mind as no upgrade at 14 minute mark game. Let me rewatch the final game and get back to you. https://youtu.be/watch?v=mNZm94_cXk8&pp=ygUQbWluaSBzc2FrIGFzbCAyMA==
Hold on. So, if I am understanding correctly, your evidence for why upgrades are "almost not warranted" in PvZ... is a PvT between Mini and Ssak?
Well, I could only remember from Ssak's name. Normally I thought it was a Best game and last asl he mostly played pvz. I never claimed I had good memory.
I'm still confused as to how anything between Mini, Best, and Ssak could have any bearing on PvZ upgrades, but maybe it is a mutual language barrier. Can you explain one more time why upgrades are not warranted in PvZ?
I think I solved why I brought pvz into the frame. My mind picked up from where I left off the last time I tried explaining things. If you look heretl.net, I did a deep dive on pvz upgrades. I must have struck a bias and remembered that while trying to remember a pvt example.
On March 17 2026 12:02 mtcn77 wrote: [quote] The mechanics of pvt vs pvz are totally different. Due to recent theory setbacks, protoss players cripple their economy with crap FE builds however as a whole, the order of economic advantage is p>z>t when it comes to vespene gas expansions. Terrans need the armory since the flash revolution is making the most of what little economy terrans have a.k.a siege tanks. Protoss is not like that. There was a Best game somewhere that proved you are almost not warranted to upgrade vs zerg. You just need to rush your economy. Terrans are the polar opposite. You try keeping your tanks alive.
Would love to see this PvZ from Best where upgrades were not warranted.
Good news and bad news. It was Mini vs Ssak game most likely. He is 1-1 at 21 minute mark. I had it marked up in my mind as no upgrade at 14 minute mark game. Let me rewatch the final game and get back to you. https://youtu.be/watch?v=mNZm94_cXk8&pp=ygUQbWluaSBzc2FrIGFzbCAyMA==
Hold on. So, if I am understanding correctly, your evidence for why upgrades are "almost not warranted" in PvZ... is a PvT between Mini and Ssak?
Well, I could only remember from Ssak's name. Normally I thought it was a Best game and last asl he mostly played pvz. I never claimed I had good memory.
I'm still confused as to how anything between Mini, Best, and Ssak could have any bearing on PvZ upgrades, but maybe it is a mutual language barrier. Can you explain one more time why upgrades are not warranted in PvZ?
I think I solved why I brought pvz into the frame. My mind picked up from where I left off the last time I tried explaining things. If you look heretl.net, I did a deep dive on pvz upgrades. I must have struck a bias and remembered that while trying to remember a pvt example.
EPT
