On March 17 2026 12:02 mtcn77 wrote: [quote] The mechanics of pvt vs pvz are totally different. Due to recent theory setbacks, protoss players cripple their economy with crap FE builds however as a whole, the order of economic advantage is p>z>t when it comes to vespene gas expansions. Terrans need the armory since the flash revolution is making the most of what little economy terrans have a.k.a siege tanks. Protoss is not like that. There was a Best game somewhere that proved you are almost not warranted to upgrade vs zerg. You just need to rush your economy. Terrans are the polar opposite. You try keeping your tanks alive.
Would love to see this PvZ from Best where upgrades were not warranted.
Good news and bad news. It was Mini vs Ssak game most likely. He is 1-1 at 21 minute mark. I had it marked up in my mind as no upgrade at 14 minute mark game. Let me rewatch the final game and get back to you.
Hold on. So, if I am understanding correctly, your evidence for why upgrades are "almost not warranted" in PvZ... is a PvT between Mini and Ssak?
Well, I could only remember from Ssak's name. Normally I thought it was a Best game and last asl he mostly played pvz. I never claimed I had good memory.
I'm still confused as to how anything between Mini, Best, and Ssak could have any bearing on PvZ upgrades, but maybe it is a mutual language barrier. Can you explain one more time why upgrades are not warranted in PvZ?
I think I solved why I brought pvz into the frame. My mind picked up from where I left off the last time I tried explaining things. If you look heretl.net, I did a deep dive on pvz upgrades. I must have struck a bias and remembered that while trying to remember a pvt example.
good job on recalling that reference. its literally the perfect response to all mtcns posts
Responding to mtcn in general is a losing EV play.
On March 17 2026 14:39 Jealous wrote: [quote] Would love to see this PvZ from Best where upgrades were not warranted.
Good news and bad news. It was Mini vs Ssak game most likely. He is 1-1 at 21 minute mark. I had it marked up in my mind as no upgrade at 14 minute mark game. Let me rewatch the final game and get back to you. https://youtu.be/watch?v=mNZm94_cXk8&pp=ygUQbWluaSBzc2FrIGFzbCAyMA==
Hold on. So, if I am understanding correctly, your evidence for why upgrades are "almost not warranted" in PvZ... is a PvT between Mini and Ssak?
Well, I could only remember from Ssak's name. Normally I thought it was a Best game and last asl he mostly played pvz. I never claimed I had good memory.
I'm still confused as to how anything between Mini, Best, and Ssak could have any bearing on PvZ upgrades, but maybe it is a mutual language barrier. Can you explain one more time why upgrades are not warranted in PvZ?
I think I solved why I brought pvz into the frame. My mind picked up from where I left off the last time I tried explaining things. If you look heretl.net, I did a deep dive on pvz upgrades. I must have struck a bias and remembered that while trying to remember a pvt example.
On March 17 2026 14:39 Jealous wrote: [quote] Would love to see this PvZ from Best where upgrades were not warranted.
Good news and bad news. It was Mini vs Ssak game most likely. He is 1-1 at 21 minute mark. I had it marked up in my mind as no upgrade at 14 minute mark game. Let me rewatch the final game and get back to you. https://youtu.be/watch?v=mNZm94_cXk8&pp=ygUQbWluaSBzc2FrIGFzbCAyMA==
Hold on. So, if I am understanding correctly, your evidence for why upgrades are "almost not warranted" in PvZ... is a PvT between Mini and Ssak?
Well, I could only remember from Ssak's name. Normally I thought it was a Best game and last asl he mostly played pvz. I never claimed I had good memory.
I'm still confused as to how anything between Mini, Best, and Ssak could have any bearing on PvZ upgrades, but maybe it is a mutual language barrier. Can you explain one more time why upgrades are not warranted in PvZ?
I think I solved why I brought pvz into the frame. My mind picked up from where I left off the last time I tried explaining things. If you look heretl.net, I did a deep dive on pvz upgrades. I must have struck a bias and remembered that while trying to remember a pvt example.
On March 18 2026 08:46 mtcn77 wrote: [quote] Good news and bad news. It was Mini vs Ssak game most likely. He is 1-1 at 21 minute mark. I had it marked up in my mind as no upgrade at 14 minute mark game. Let me rewatch the final game and get back to you. https://youtu.be/watch?v=mNZm94_cXk8&pp=ygUQbWluaSBzc2FrIGFzbCAyMA==
Hold on. So, if I am understanding correctly, your evidence for why upgrades are "almost not warranted" in PvZ... is a PvT between Mini and Ssak?
Well, I could only remember from Ssak's name. Normally I thought it was a Best game and last asl he mostly played pvz. I never claimed I had good memory.
I'm still confused as to how anything between Mini, Best, and Ssak could have any bearing on PvZ upgrades, but maybe it is a mutual language barrier. Can you explain one more time why upgrades are not warranted in PvZ?
I think I solved why I brought pvz into the frame. My mind picked up from where I left off the last time I tried explaining things. If you look heretl.net, I did a deep dive on pvz upgrades. I must have struck a bias and remembered that while trying to remember a pvt example.
On April 17 2026 08:01 TonDan04 wrote: as Terran, if a protoss double gateway zealot rush at center on Fighting Spirit, what is the best response?
bunker ASAP. Make nonstop marine. Get factory up to make vulture. Either the zealots kill you or you get enough units to counter and kill the central pylon. Vultures can also be used to runby and kill all their probes.
On March 17 2026 14:39 Jealous wrote: [quote] Would love to see this PvZ from Best where upgrades were not warranted.
Good news and bad news. It was Mini vs Ssak game most likely. He is 1-1 at 21 minute mark. I had it marked up in my mind as no upgrade at 14 minute mark game. Let me rewatch the final game and get back to you. https://youtu.be/watch?v=mNZm94_cXk8&pp=ygUQbWluaSBzc2FrIGFzbCAyMA==
Hold on. So, if I am understanding correctly, your evidence for why upgrades are "almost not warranted" in PvZ... is a PvT between Mini and Ssak?
Well, I could only remember from Ssak's name. Normally I thought it was a Best game and last asl he mostly played pvz. I never claimed I had good memory.
I'm still confused as to how anything between Mini, Best, and Ssak could have any bearing on PvZ upgrades, but maybe it is a mutual language barrier. Can you explain one more time why upgrades are not warranted in PvZ?
I think I solved why I brought pvz into the frame. My mind picked up from where I left off the last time I tried explaining things. If you look heretl.net, I did a deep dive on pvz upgrades. I must have struck a bias and remembered that while trying to remember a pvt example.
people have default finger placements? i feel like 1234 qwer asdf wasd are all the same to me. my hand is in the same spot for all 4. fingers are just wherever they need to be depending on what im doing
On April 23 2026 15:26 evilfatsh1t wrote: people have default finger placements? i feel like 1234 qwer asdf wasd are all the same to me. my hand is in the same spot for all 4. fingers are just wherever they need to be depending on what im doing
I don't know hence the poll.
But i ll agree i wasn't sure how to phrase it, so i ll try:
I meant more where you"return to" once you ve done whatever action. For instance if you use 1234 most of your motion would be sideways to the other numbers, or down. Then you come back to hovering above 1234. You d probably use your thumb more as well. Whereas if you re asdf you move your fingers more up and your wrist is "lower" towards you. You d use your thumb less.
Personally my pinky is mostly for ctrl and shift, not really A or 1 (ring for both) so i m more wasd (wad and ctrl/shift to be more correct) and 1234 feels unnatural as a result, i d probably need to tilt my keyboard a bit.
i think if your muscle memory is 100% it doesn't matter where your finger place ment is as long as your fingers correctly presses the key you need to hit at the right time.
But how many here NEVER have to look at their keyboard for a full game? I've never been good at not looking at the keyboard so for me it's frequent and I mess up my hand placement a lot as a result
My start of the game hand position is asdf because I make drone after sending all drones to mine and then I split
but after that I spend a lot of time doing 1234 while boosting (since there are multiple drones to boost, overlord needs to be selected to move larvae) so it can also count as a "default"
On April 24 2026 09:31 TonDan04 wrote: i think if your muscle memory is 100% it doesn't matter where your finger place ment is as long as your fingers correctly presses the key you need to hit at the right time.
But how many here NEVER have to look at their keyboard for a full game? I've never been good at not looking at the keyboard so for me it's frequent and I mess up my hand placement a lot as a result
I don't think I've ever looked at the keyboard unless I tried to alt qq and alt tabbed instead
Watching progamers play on a 4-player map, they almost always expand vertically. Why is this? That is, if they've cross-spawned on Knock Out or FS, they tend to choose to take their third base on a position vertical to their home base, rather than horizontally.
Say they spawn at 11 o'clock, take their natural, then will go down to expand at 7 o'clock. Similarly, if they spawn at 1 o'clock, their third will be at 5 o'clock. For simplicity, let's assume moreso in ZvT or PvT, as Zerg and Protoss, respectively in these match-ups, will often expand more aggressively across the map, as opposed to the nearby ramp-protected single bases (3, 6, 9, 12 o'clock).
Illustration for reference:
Why do players rarely expand horizontally? If they've spawned at 11 o'clock, why not take the 1 o'clock instead? Is it easier for mouse movement vertically than horizontally? Or something more strategy/tactic related? Is the travel distance shorter, even if on a square 128x128 map?
Noticed this over the years, but didn't understand why. Tried some Google and TL searches, but no hits...
Those are two completely different examples. FS has rotational symmetry (to a degree) and so horizontal or vertical is simply a matter of orientation. Kickout does not have rotational symmetry, expanding down engages the centre of the map, expanding across does not.
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/poe25Sm.jpeg)
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