[M][Cap] Tortoise Mafia - Page 52
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Fidei86
United Kingdom2116 Posts
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Artanis[Xp]
Netherlands12968 Posts
Night 3 GlowingBear the Vanilla Town has been lynched! Tumblewood has been warned for failing to vote. to Day post. | ||
Shapelog
United States5184 Posts
At least Tumble is still alive. | ||
gumshoe
Canada3602 Posts
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Fidei86
United Kingdom2116 Posts
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Half the Sky
Germany9029 Posts
This is fucking disappointing and frustrating now. Especially after just re-reading a ridiculous amount. I'm off for the night, but will reassess when I return. | ||
Tictock
United States6051 Posts
I'm mildly satisfied that my gut read on him was right though... If it turns out town only had a Vig this game and Fidie is getting away with a fakeclaim I'm gunna be upset, but I'll worry about that postgame. For now I guess I'll take things back to square one kus my PoE has apparently been shit. | ||
Tumblewood
United States3709 Posts
On April 28 2016 05:38 Fidei86 wrote: FWIW, one of the reasons I've been nervous about HTS (and also sometimes not nervous) was that I am fairly sure at least someone on the scum team is familiar enough with my meta to know when something is different with me. I was SHOCKED to be roleblocked. this is 10/10 fidei joins confirmed town club gumshoe Koshi me Fidei --- tt shape hts not confirmed one of the conftowns dies tonight, which leaves tt and shape as our solid lynches for tomorrow. if even one of the non-confirmed towns reveals themselves to be townie, we can lynch the other two and win (or if we get a save, all three) btw fidei/possible medic, don't save me tonight. go for someone who has time to play the game. | ||
Tumblewood
United States3709 Posts
On April 28 2016 07:40 gumshoe wrote: 1 small welp for gumshoe, one giant welp for townkind finding TvT arguments is one of my few strengths in this game wish I had been around to actually do something about it welp | ||
Koshi
Belgium38797 Posts
On April 29 2016 03:05 Tumblewood wrote: this is 10/10 fidei joins confirmed town club gumshoe Koshi me Fidei --- tt shape hts not confirmed one of the conftowns dies tonight, which leaves tt and shape as our solid lynches for tomorrow. if even one of the non-confirmed towns reveals themselves to be townie, we can lynch the other two and win (or if we get a save, all three) btw fidei/possible medic, don't save me tonight. go for someone who has time to play the game. I agree that we didn't do this GB lynch very well. He was pretty townie when he was trying to lynch me. I am not sure gumshoe is town though. I don't think I want to lynch TT. I don't know why. I would lynch HTS or Shape first. Probably Shape. | ||
Half the Sky
Germany9029 Posts
I'm re-reading filters and hitting the database at this point, and fuck it I'm just going to say it now, the final mafia actually most likely is Tictock. I have to take off for the evening, but I'm going to highlight some key parallels between his scumgames and this game (exclusive of Fidei's case). A bit on Shape... I'm reading Shapelog's filter and besides the votes on him from earlier scum, I'm also seeing posts like post 826 and 886 indicate townie thinking and him trying to solve the game. Because of his AFKness, he hasn't been able to be as participatory, nor a so-called shining beacon of townieness, but when he has been around, I can definitely tell he is trying to work things out. Why Tictock is the final mafia Posting for the sake of posting 950 Aside from the case I see Fidei has written on Tictock, plus the Tictock/TW case, I reviewed Tictock's response to it (post 950). Not only is Shapelog's questioning of the post warranted, but the part where Tictock said that his read on FF is overstating things it still doesn't take away from the fact that he effectively saved a scum read over someone he considered town, and having decent reads based on a PoE list doesn't make sense to even post, nor does it make Tictock (or anyone really) more town. 157-159 Post 157 - now that I am taking a much closer look at his posts - makes me beg the question as to why he's even posting what he is. First part - if he's not asking Fecalfeast for his reads, what is he doing? Second part about FF is largely posting just to post, I know Koshi called my read on Fecalfeast overexplanation (mind you, I backed it up with meta), but tell me that post wasn't either (or rather, a very rambly way of saying Fecalfeast is null) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/507600-cap-tortoise-mafia?page=8#157 Even Fidei makes a statement (post 159) about his 'lame agreement' without a solid stance. Scum Meta I'm just as guilty for not looking as closely to certain things as others may have this past cycle, but comparing the cases he's made here to how he was able to case the scummy townies in Guardians Chapter 1 (won as GF Day 5, the easy examples I remember from that game were Chocolate and Templar) and doing the same thing in Nutcracker (he cased GigyaS and I think ritoky? before he was eventually caught by the tracker in mylo) people should not be giving him a complete pass for the cases he wrote on Fidei - the one that was written on Tumble this game is an example of a more poorly written case that has been called out a few times. Take a look at Tictock's scum game and some of the cases he's written against scummy townies. See any parallels? (Fidei/Shapelog/others who might have also been in these games, please comment) Holy Guardians Chapter 1 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/486008-holy-guardians-chapter-1?user=Tictock (full filter) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/486008-holy-guardians-chapter-1?page=20#388 (example of a post where his reads will contradict each other so that he's not saying a whole lot, namely the points against Kickstart and Chocolate) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/486008-holy-guardians-chapter-1?page=30#582 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/486008-holy-guardians-chapter-1?page=30#600 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/486008-holy-guardians-chapter-1?page=32#638 (final is response to ritoky calling him out, look familiar? it should, responses from Damdred/Fidei come to mind) These are some examples of so-called contrived reads, or similar to what he put out on Tumbleweed this game. Also defensiveness as to when he is accused. Examples of cases he's made in that game below: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/486008-holy-guardians-chapter-1?page=49#964 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/486008-holy-guardians-chapter-1?page=51#1004 (Damdred's response - Tictock was trying to fit the scum narrative for Damdred in that game) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/486008-holy-guardians-chapter-1?page=59#1168 (case on GGTemplar) There are several more cases, but in that case he piggybacked off a dead townie's case for another easy mislynch. Now check out the post in this game on LS about the earth being flat - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/507600-cap-tortoise-mafia?page=15#285 and constantly saying that LS is posting little content. LS posted content he disagreed with or whatever, and it was a different opinion on moving the game forward but calling Koshi's read on LS bullshit is also contrived because he ALSO MADE THAT POST at the time Koshi retracted his read on LS and voted him. So Tictock at the very least ignored that change in read. Also check out this post where he voted gumshoe http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/507600-cap-tortoise-mafia?page=25#490 Someone please tell me why what gumshoe said is exclusive to mafia? This is also trying to fit into a scum narrative, which is mafia indicative esp for Tictock. Nutcracker http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/499399-tl-mafia-lxxiii-the-nutcracker?user=Tictock (overall filter) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/499399-tl-mafia-lxxiii-the-nutcracker?page=25#496 (another example of a case he makes on someone to frame them as mafia, this also touches a bit on how defensive Tictock is when facing accusations. Compared that to post 385 this game where he pushes back at Damdred with self-meta) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/499399-tl-mafia-lxxiii-the-nutcracker?page=25#499 Koshi calling him out on them in that game, similar concerns regarding Tictock's play in posts 112, 166, in this game. TLDR - a bullet point list of mafia parallels for Tictock (1) framing something NAI or not exclusive to mafia as exclusively mafia (2) defensiveness (3) taking a disagreement with another player as mafia indicative (4) contrived reads (5) several instances of questioned purposes of posting, or posting just to post. If nothing else, just take a look at those filters and then re-read Tictock's filter with these points in mind.......but I'm seriously annoyed at myself that I didn't realise this shit sooner. Good night. | ||
Koshi
Belgium38797 Posts
Everything I said before was based on feels. But I had a couple strange feels from TT as well. So maybe we need to lynch him. I am kinda ok with him pure due to the Fidei lynch. If the case from HTS checks out I guess you can lynch TT. | ||
Half the Sky
Germany9029 Posts
Koshi, when I read the Nutcracker game compared to the Guardians game, his game wasn't quite as "clean" as Guardians, but hopefully you will find some of the key points I'm trying to make. If you don't trust my case, then why doesn't what Fidei is saying convince you? On April 29 2016 06:29 Koshi wrote: I agree that we didn't do this GB lynch very well. He was pretty townie when he was trying to lynch me. I am not sure gumshoe is town though. I don't think I want to lynch TT. I don't know why. I would lynch HTS or Shape first. Probably Shape. Also when I read through Nutcracker it was you who didn't want to lynch Tictock then for what he was posting. On December 16 2015 06:42 Koshi wrote: unvote: vote: GlowingBear Dnu. Don't want TT out. Content keeps flowing out. I'll keep him and GB is a liability. Some shitty modkills incoming as well? I hate modkills. Just cheapens the set-up/game/balance After you were scumming him a decent chunk of the game. I think you might be making the same mistake in this game tbh. A lesson learnt from NSM 18 that also honestly applies here - I also think you need to adjust your expectations here of mafia for how poorly town are playing. How many scummy townies have we lynched or have been pushed all game? It's easy for ANY mafia - not just Tictock - to make cases on scummy town. | ||
Fidei86
United Kingdom2116 Posts
Also wine. | ||
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
Day 4: Fidei86 (Jailkeeper) has died. until the next lynch. | ||
Fidei86
United Kingdom2116 Posts
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Tictock
United States6051 Posts
On April 29 2016 07:29 Hapahauli wrote: Fidei86 (Jailkeeper) has died. Good I can put that tinfoil to rest. I haven't really read HtS's case on me yet, but she made good choices picking out my strongest scum games. Pretty sure I post just to post as either alignment though... I mean if that's what you wanna call it when I make posts like this one. (if this weren't a post restricted game I might well just stop and post now, but...) Without reading filters Shape seems like the obv choice from my PoV, but I should do you all justice and actually read HtS's filter (Hell just the fact that she's been making nonstop WoT type posts might be something to note, kus god does it make me not wanna read her filter) and recheck Gum. I could tinfoil Koshi, but honestly he might deserve the win if he is mafia here. The buddying has been spot on if mafia. All for now, I'll do things when I feel like it. | ||
Tictock
United States6051 Posts
I've been way too wrong to be mafia this game, especially when I have almost always bussed teammates who played like DYH and SL did this game. | ||
Koshi
Belgium38797 Posts
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Shapelog
United States5184 Posts
At worse, we go into mylo (I think?) if I get lynched due to my afkiness. In that case, review everything and such (just don't fuck up and do what I did on my first lylo as town on OMGUS and vote the most towniest person, Kush, due to guts) Now onto the game: Helf = Them Sky^2 (E = MC^2) case on TT (he cased GigyaS and I think ritoky? before he was eventually caught by the tracker! in mylo) Now to move away from gloating, The first thing that kinda pops into mind with her case, is the missing of his 2 recent games as scum (devil and Storm, the latter is kinda important) as the latest game that she listed that was played was from December, roughly at this point, 5 months old. And while I am sure that it doesn't drastically change the view on his meta (as he only has played about 3 games? since he played nut.), there are some points that should be noted (IMO) form those games. The first major point (that at this point, if no one knows about, I am going to beat on the fucking head with a noodle) is the burnout. There were mentions of it in Devil, and majorly evident in storm. TT's Filter: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/505463-tl-mafia-lxxiv-storm-mafia-3?user=Tictock Scum QT (Scroll to the bottom, half the posts are just me talking to myself): http://quicktopic.com/52/H/HDGBMg456EPjp If you read the aboves, you see how hard it was for him to really get going. Though, he was able to get some content going, going into day 2. Ex. On March 27 2016 20:00 Tictock wrote: Finished reading up till EoD. This vote is really odd as a final count, both Rsoul and Tube voting Kuru and everyone piled on them... could be a TvT. I think one of Kuru or Rsoul is probably scum though. Reads at this point: VayneAuthority - Null - + Show Spoiler + Drops a half assed read on Rsoul #547, pretty much only thing he's firm about and leaves. Could be townie not giving a fuck or scum dropping a vote and outing. Kurumi - Scum lean - + Show Spoiler + #216 kinda an odd open, he really just rambles about a couple of different people in one post; Gum pointed out this interesting bit in #268; #305 alot more rambling and the conclusion that gum is for sure scum feels kinda over the top; #495 stopped reading after the "bollocks I was really wrong, I really was too harsh" reaction to gum flipping town; #870 kinda like this post, feels genuine... could prob come from scum though; #1008 actually like this response; #1071 really weak vote, opportunistic and rife with omgus; WoT's feely rambling like they have no read drive/motivation behind them, reads seem kinda weak and opportunistic for how much he likes to write Stutters695 - Turns out was a blue... Damdred - mild scum lean - + Show Spoiler + #166 decent post, shows critical thought and is pushing for info; #300 decent reads, disagree about Vivax and LS though; #379 mimics Jat in making the "sensible statement here" also the snap defense of LS feels off even if he's townreading him; #1264 don't like this vote, #959 pile of garbage that boils down to "don't lynch me, I'm a good player!"; #1055 says he likes this post from Tube but in #1264 he plops his vote on Tube with no real explanation (actually never did find much about his Tube read rechecking his filter) Weird vote on Tube, not explained and he had recently quoted a post he liked, a few townie posts but nothing I haven't seen Damdred do as scum before sandroba - town - + Show Spoiler + #966 felt same way about SL's gum vote; #967 weird he doesn't know gum got shot; all in all the thought dumb from #966 to 972 feels pretty towny; Feels alot like sandroba from last game ObiWanShinobi - town lean -+ Show Spoiler + #957 and #1000 seems like Obi is being fairly forward with his thoughts Koshi - town - + Show Spoiler + Easiest read in the game, I have posts noted for him but why bother... Rels - town lean - + Show Spoiler + #439-440 jumps in with stuff on his mind; #537 exactly my thought; #1280 I like this catch; I read Rels by the way he pushes on people and things, as scum he tends to nitpick and will overpush little things, here he feels level headed and his pushes are more questioning than vindictive. I also doubt a scum!Rels would say I could be town for being afk. justanothertownie - town lean - + Show Spoiler + #348 feels like an odd open, the way he defends Rit while dismissing his plan suggests he has a strong town read on rit; #544 & # 557 are both solid posts from Jat, I like how he's applying critical thinking but not being quick to conclusions Can't recall if I've actually played with JAT before so not sure what his scum range is, but he is probably town from the way he is processing things ritoky - slight scum lean - + Show Spoiler + The whole VT claim, fishing, w/e thing seems off to me. It's not so much that Rit played it so poorly, but that he put so much focus on it. I found one LS read from him early on I liked, #285, but otherwise his first page (actually a large part) of filter is all about his brilliant play. #816 also shows that Rit knew there was a chance his play might never even work (he knows that Scum QT's are often provided with fake claim info). #827 claims to give no fucks, but 832 keeps defending his plan and telling people it was good seems like he gives several fucks. It's like Rit knows his plan didn't work, played it bad, but is really concerned that people know it was done with pure intentions. I'm just not feeling like Rit's actions match what he claims he was doing here. #798 is a pretty weak read on Super imo, I wouldn't put that past a scum!super at all. Posts like #404 is more what I'd expect from town!Rit, simple to the point reads. sicklucker - Town lean - + Show Spoiler + #162 feels like a bit of a hop on vote; So not much really stood out to me from SL, but he's not giving a shit how he comes off to people and I can see the reasoning behind his pushes pretty clearly. Hard to explain but he feels town Alakaslam - Scum - + Show Spoiler + I really disliked Slams reactions after his shot went off, he pushes blame off on others, some of his explanation on the shot seems convoluted, and he basically fucked off after defending himself. I'm not seeing anything he's done to contribute to this game. #137 right off the bat this feels odd, it's quite clear what koshi is doing with that (reffering to his list postings); #363 says he would have shot Rsoul; #409 now suggests he's rethinking and must sleep on it?; #655 says everyone being butthurt makes him not want to cooperate, but everything he's done has been acting on his own thus far... Slam hasn't even given reads; #678 says he considered shooting Kuru or Gum, went with gum kus of bad meta useage (as in gum was sorta scum reading slam); #844 says he was agreeing with Kuru and shot Gum, then suggests he's mad he's getting the blame; #1140 the timeline in this is wrong, Slam says he thought about retracting the shot before bed, woke up thinking about it, then remembered his original reason for scum reading gum... how did he forget why he wanted to shoot gum in all the "thinking" time he had? It's really weird how Slam says he was both considering shooting Kuru but agreeing with him on gum at the same time. He also never mentions his thought about shooting Rsoul after the shot goes off, there is too much not making sense to me here, besides the fact that slam shot a fairly active person so early with so little thought given Tumblewood - Null/slight town lean - + Show Spoiler + #278 tumble's open, it adds nothing and look terrible... probably town; #286 another post that does little to impact the game, fits with town meta #329 feels like Tumble is setting up blame for a town flip from gum rather than looking for voting modivations; #670 really doesn't make sense, especially why he is SURE slam is town here I'd prob put Tumble down as town for meta, but that's not a great town read Shapelog - Null - + Show Spoiler + #181 post mirrors my thinking; #187 reads seem weird, not sure why he's TRing slam; #283 I dont get this post, it's a wierd response to LS; #623 feels really wishywashy to me, like he's really avoiding coming to conclusions; #711 this focus on VA seems odd when there are multiple people, like myself, who are not really playing, shape himself has pointed us out #716 maybe just a little too eager to please & respond? Shape's overall tone and attitude gives me a town feel, but his reads feel a little off to me and he's being kinda wishywashy while focusing on weird things. Vivax - Town - + Show Spoiler + I like this style of play from vivax, it screams town to me. #262 I like this "fuck off let me do my thing" attitude coupled with promising to behave, plus I like his points; #324 huge stream of thought type post, unlikely from mafia; #634 yea, never lynch vivax rsoultin - Scum lean - + Show Spoiler + #327 open post that tries to talk about a ton, but says nothing; #331 is a bad post, it says nothing while implying people are scum, it's also a surface reaction which shows no effort in reading tumble; #1017 this tunnel on Rit feels a little forced, even though I agree he's sus; #1019 these "I'm not the lynch" style posts feel so blah to me, #1117 weird vote given how focused she's been on Rit, also unsure where this read on Kuru comes from kinda like #353 and #358 is the sorta attitude you get from a town not giving a fuck While I have a similar suspiscion of Rit, Rsoul doesn't seem to be willing to look at Rit possibly being town while asking others to do the same for herself. Combined with her sudden burst of activity when she was being voted on, and her odd vote while semi-giving up pushing Rit, I'm having a hard time seeing Rsoul as town. LightningStrike - scum lean - + Show Spoiler + #172-173 kinda odd how defensive of Slam he is being, especially give gum wasn't really pushing slam; #196 Promising to check things and taking a lot of middle of the road stances; #277 omgus feels out of place, #279 he is over-defensive over something simple; #534 feels a little opportunistic, #891 really good non-answer... ; I know LS has something of a reputation of being lynchbait, but I'm not getting much from him that suggests he's trying to solve the game here. I only recall him posting some town and null reads, never got the sense that he has scum reads Superbia - Town - + Show Spoiler + #135 half joking/half down to buisness; #174 not sure where this TR on slam comes from; #192 good points, also adds to my own thoughts about #187; #242 strong post, gives me strong town feels; #501 - 505 love this train of thought breaking down the gum wagon Attitutde & tone feels town, paranoid about people town reading him, probably has done the most to try to sovle the game So I guess technically, even with the burnout, he could/did post content of such. Hmmm. Contradicts a bit of what i thought. Devil was a tad different. He buddied me (well, I kinda reversed buddy, in which I got buddy because I pushed to be buddied with him over bombpops) If u want to skim it, here: Filter: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/503525-shin-megami-tensei-the-devil-inside-mafia?user=Tictock Post 950# On April 28 2016 05:38 Shapelog wrote: I..Do not understand...The point of this post. Defense by WIFOM? Yeah, I still do not really like that post. On April 25 2016 20:10 Tictock wrote: It's interesting that DYH and GB were voting together here. If they are both scum this is a pretty weak attempt to stay alive by voting together on a wagon that is probably never going to happen. Idk it's super weak, especially since the lynch was between GB and DYH, but I wouldn't expect scum to be voting together like this. I'd expect a scum!GB to make the swap to DYH to at least pickup whatever towncred he could, but honestly that's pretty WIFOM. Still, this plus the stuff between GB and SL is enough to make me prefer a Fidei lynch tomorrow over GB. But WIFOM doesn't matter when he makes a defense, where he literally admits has almost all WIFOM elements lol. Could come from town tho. I just did it in a unmarked game as it so eh. If I had to describe nut: I am bias a course, because of track. But I got majorly buddy that game. I was also the one who argued that people should be reading into meta, because it could be easily faked from him (which it was.) He mimicked his meta so well (at least according to how other people reacted) that got him universally town read. He made a bunch of big posts, and was a town figure head. And Finally, I drawn a Tarot card for him (this part is pure lolz) It was Queen of Pentacles - reversed Description The face suggests that of a dark woman, whose qualities might be summed up in the idea of greatness of soul; she has also the serious cast of intelligence; she contemplates her symbol and may see worlds therein. Divinatory Meanings Opulence, generosity, magnificence, security, liberty. Divinatory Meanings - Reversed Evil, suspicion, suspense, fear, mistrust. Additional Divinatory Meanings Dark woman; presents from a rich relative; rich and happy marriage for a young man. Additional Meanings - Reversed An illness. Idk, I just used a website Anyways, I'm going to reread TT's filter again this game and HTS for good measure. I have a tinfoil Idea on Koshi that I would like to look at as well. However, if he is scum this game, he has mimic his town playstyle greatly. So he is still prob. town. | ||
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