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He uses a quick speed to deal with any zealot pressure due to scouting no gas and late warren (eg he would probably have a 7:00. Roach warren, which is still ealier than 'standard' roach warren as a reaction to no gas by 7:00). By seeing toss have gas at his natural, he knows he is safe from gateway allins and 4 gate pressure. I imagine he went into both of these games planning to go quick mutas, because his first gas and speed is absurdly early. By skiping roaches and evo, he's able to get supper fast mutas.
No protoss going ffe with gas is going to be prepared for 10:33 mutas. Its an interesting timing attack, and I don't see how any toss can be prepared for it unless they specifically go for a 6 gate allin, but that's a 'bad' allin that has tons of problems on its own - the tech is super late, no probes, its like 4 gating. And nestea would handle such a build easily with his quick speed, and a reactive roach warren due to no gas at the nat.
He clearly did this build with a lan, not reactive mutas. No toss can handle such fast mutas as it is now, and nestea can reactively go corruptors vs double star or quick gateway allin. Going fast third is vulnerable because its so many mutas, so quickly - as you can see in his game vs JYP.
And immortal/sentry is quickly becoming the textbook strongest allin toss can do - nestea obviously was prepared for such a build, which is what lure did, by going for a base trade if toss goes immortal sentry.
Maybe a 7gate blink allin as an opener would be a counter build? 7gate stalkers at your door at 9:30... but I imagine even then, nesteas quick mutas would win a basetreade. I don't know, that's a very allin build, I'm sure nestea would react to it with roaches when scouting with an overlord and overseer.
This build is nothing like 2base muta... 2base muta is somewhat allinnish in that you have to do damage, and gets less mutas out earlier but has a similiar muta count by 11:00 due to only 4 gas.
In the current metagame, you NEVER see zerg get mutas this fast. Every zerg nowadays wouldn't dare go mutas if toss is doing a 2base allin, esppecially immortalsentry, because they all get roaches. 'Fast' mutas generally are like 12minute, because zergs need roach/ling to handle warpgate aggression, and toss knows they don't need to worry about mutas, because zerg will make roaches, they have to defend.
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Well this build does counters the very popular 4gate robo with 3 immortal+sentries supported with stalkers though. I think this build is interesting and and i would like to know build order for it if someone knows. I love how he proxied his spire so that the enemy won't know what's coming until the mutas literally pop out.
I feel like this Nestea make this build to metagame his opponent since the current metagame is focused on getting 3 hatch gasless into your standard roach pressure to deny third or tech up to BLs+Infestor. Not sure this build is optimal enough for standard play though. Have not seen enough games to determine it yet.
Overall, thanks for sharing this build.
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^ I mean the build order is just the normal 3hatch vs zv. You can find information about it in my zvp guide. The only difference is gas after taking third (4:45 gas), speed, and then make sure toss gets gas. If he does, go lair, drone u liike normal and respond to early presure using speedlings, and if he doesn't get gas, get roach warren.
I mean it isn't that unstandard of a build. Nestea is using good decision making to understand that a toss who gets gas, means you don't need roaches. No this isn't that novel on its own - what's novel, is that nestea uses ling/muta (which he can only afford by skippping roach warren=about 7 more drones, and not getting uprgades, roach speed, roaches, and burrow)
Right now, EVERY zerg getts a roach warren, and thinks that you can only defend gateway pressure and 2base allins using roach/ling. By skipping roaches, nestea affords something that was previously unaffordable, gets mutas earlier than possible with roach tech (and which is funny, because the logic is that mutas can't come in time to deal with gateway ppushes and 2base allin, but that's because you are always getting roach tech), and either kills a toss going third, or he base trades any immortal/sentry allin.
Id imagine 2base 930 blink stalker would be trouble to this style, but then nestea would use mass speedlings early on to buy time for a roach warren that is still made by 9:00 so I'm sure they'd be out in time (don't throw spire down until you know the gasing toss is not going blink?)... I really think this build opens up a lot for zerg.
Quick speed to defend gate pressure (think about it - imagine 4 gate +1 but toss can't use a proxy ppylon due to the early speedlings!), and then seeing gas means no need roach warren. Imagine the possibilties with this - using ling/hydra to hold immortal/sentry or blink all ins because you can get enoug hydras out in time, with suport. Quick infestors so you can go ling/infestor super early, and then hive is like done when toss takes his third. Hell, baneling drops again maybe?
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On May 22 2012 04:31 Belial88 wrote: ^ I mean the build order is just the normal 3hatch vs zv. You can find information about it in my zvp guide. The only difference is gas after taking third (4:45 gas), speed, and then make sure toss gets gas. If he does, go lair, drone u liike normal and respond to early presure using speedlings, and if he doesn't get gas, get roach warren.
I mean it isn't that unstandard of a build. Nestea is using good decision making to understand that a toss who gets gas, means you don't need roaches. No this isn't that novel on its own - what's novel, is that nestea uses ling/muta (which he can only afford by skippping roach warren=about 7 more drones, and not getting uprgades, roach speed, roaches, and burrow)
Right now, EVERY zerg getts a roach warren, and thinks that you can only defend gateway pressure and 2base allins using roach/ling. By skipping roaches, nestea affords something that was previously unaffordable, gets mutas earlier than possible with roach tech (and which is funny, because the logic is that mutas can't come in time to deal with gateway ppushes and 2base allin, but that's because you are always getting roach tech), and either kills a toss going third, or he base trades any immortal/sentry allin.
Id imagine 2base 930 blink stalker would be trouble to this style, but then nestea would use mass speedlings early on to buy time for a roach warren that is still made by 9:00 so I'm sure they'd be out in time (don't throw spire down until you know the gasing toss is not going blink?)... I really think this build opens up a lot for zerg.
Quick speed to defend gate pressure (think about it - imagine 4 gate +1 but toss can't use a proxy ppylon due to the early speedlings!), and then seeing gas means no need roach warren. Imagine the possibilties with this - using ling/hydra to hold immortal/sentry or blink all ins because you can get enoug hydras out in time, with suport. Quick infestors so you can go ling/infestor super early, and then hive is like done when toss takes his third. Hell, baneling drops again maybe?
I think the idea is pretty much, to get as many mutas as fast as possible. It's a variation of the 2base mutalisk build, but with 6gas. As far as I remember, he didn't have more than 6 (+ maybe very few) drones at the third.
I think 4gate pressure is still possible, because after all, you still can't afford mass speedling early, and especially on a map like antiga where a toss can hide pylons at the main or third base or the areas which are not covered by the watchtower, there is always a good chance you won't find the pylon(s) in time. And if Protoss does so, I'd guess that it could be rather efficient due to the +1 attack (at least the trade could turn out rather OK). But I'd say 4gate +1 pressure is highly unlikely, once you scout 3gas.
What I think the build could potentially get in trouble against are blink builds or blink+observer, to circumvent spines also I think the classic response to mutalisks should always be immidiatly taking a third, canoning up and maxing out with stalker/templar/archon + a mothership if needed (or alternatively 2SG+fleetbacon 6range phoenix like some Protoss have shown) - especially on smaller maps with little airspace like antiga (but that would require scouting, something a lot of tosses skip upon these days in favor of stronger "blind" allins).
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Quick speed to defend gate pressure (think about it - imagine 4 gate +1 but toss can't use a proxy ppylon due to the early speedlings!), and then seeing gas means no need roach warren. Imagine the possibilties with this - using ling/hydra to hold immortal/sentry or blink all ins because you can get enoug hydras out in time, with suport. Quick infestors so you can go ling/infestor super early, and then hive is like done when toss takes his third. Hell, baneling drops again maybe?
The speedling sets you back a bit, but by letting you consistently deny proxies it gives you a longer droning window. Guys like dimaga and morrow always get speed at this timing because they also play without roaches, so you NEED to deny that proxy pylon or you lose. The early game is always scary as hell for them, though. They go +1/+1 into baneling drops, and baneling drops are NOT done in time for most 2-base all-ins, because it is delayed by 1/1, which Nestea skipped. Same for ling infestor - you can get the infestors out fast enough if you skip upgrades, but you need the upgrades, and you won't have enough energy to stop the 2-base all in. Nestea also didn't get a macro hatch, which you would normally need for any other ling based composition.
Going muta in this situation is unique becaue you can skip evo upgrades and base trade. I'm not sure how it would fare against blinkstalker. Blinkstalker combats the mutalisks much better, but also doesn't plough through 13 spinecrawlers as quickly when you don't have 3 immortals.
I think the idea is pretty much, to get as many mutas as fast as possible. It's a variation of the 2base mutalisk build, but with 6gas. As far as I remember, he didn't have more than 6 (+ maybe very few) drones at the third.
He peaked at 76 drones - he was saturated at all 3 bases, but he pulled all the mineral drones back to his natural to make mass spinecrawlers (and fight). He left the gas drones there to squeeze out a few more mutalisks I guess.
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On May 22 2012 05:38 Oboeman wrote:Show nested quote +I think the idea is pretty much, to get as many mutas as fast as possible. It's a variation of the 2base mutalisk build, but with 6gas. As far as I remember, he didn't have more than 6 (+ maybe very few) drones at the third.
He peaked at 76 drones - he was saturated at all 3 bases, but he pulled all the mineral drones back to his natural to make mass spinecrawlers (and fight). He left the gas drones there to squeeze out a few more mutalisks I guess.
ty for clarifying. I saw the dronecount, but didn't remeber the drones being at the third and thought he might not have put them there to begin with or undersaturated it.
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remind me of savior 3d base muta on BW
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I think the idea is pretty much, to get as many mutas as fast as possible. It's a variation of the 2base mutalisk build, but with 6gas. As far as I remember, he didn't have more than 6 (+ maybe very few) drones at the third.
... like i said, it's NOTHING like 2 base muta. There's a huge difference. 2 base muta gets mutas out quick enough that it will come before toss pressure, like stargate or warp gate pressure, and the 2nd difference is it's kind of all-in, as in if you don't do damage, you get really far behind.
3 base muta, on the other hand, is actually very very macro oriented, actually greedier than standard play by foregoing roach warren, +1, roaches, evo chamber, roach speed, burrow, burrow move...... and it's a completely reactionary build.
Going 2 base muta is like a 6pool. You made the decision to do it, and you are just hoping Toss doesn't do one build over another.
Going 3 base muta, like nestea, well, is new, and I really have no idea what to compare it too. It's probably more like fast third CC in TvZ, except you can scout enough with the overlord at the natural to be safe, and you are getting ling speed very early on.
Normally, Nestea does seem to get a bit quicker gas than most people. I recall during MLG (like the games he had vs naniwa a bunch), he was taking 2xGas at 5:30. This was back before I think fast third was really fleshed out though, this was like 6 months ago, and most zergs were making 6:30 roach warrens and evos as standard, and wouldn't make lair until 90+ supply, first making drones then units (now lair is made about at 50 supply, as long as you see toss get gas at his nat, and even then, many zergs still get lair, especially those zergs who go late 3 gas, which results in a slightly later lair, but more drones, and by 8:00, a better econ, but is of course a little more susceptible to early pressure due to later roaches and ling speed). Him going 4:45 single gas is obviously very, very planned on his part.
I'll try to look up a recent ZvP of him, and see when he took his gases and roach warren and evo chamber. I really doubt he went fast ling speed in those games.
I mean, the fast mutas aren't the only deal here. Going an extremely fast single gas for ling speed, and then not using roaches, and reacting to toss' gas scout, seems like it could open up even greedier play by zerg. It would sure allow a much easier time against immortal/sentry if we could actually get more tech than mass roach against it just to barely survive (or in the case of sniper vs... forget who, on cloudkingdom, just happened, gsl... first game of the set... you lose your third and then push back and try to win by delaying toss third).
I think 4gate pressure is still possible, because after all, you still can't afford mass speedling early, and especially on a map like antiga where a toss can hide pylons at the main or third base or the areas which are not covered by the watchtower, there is always a good chance you won't find the pylon(s) in time. And if Protoss does so, I'd guess that it could be rather efficient due to the +1 attack (at least the trade could turn out rather OK). But I'd say 4gate +1 pressure is highly unlikely, once you scout 3gas.
Are you just low level, not read any of my guides, or any of my, or many other people's, posts in this thread?
1. You have super quick ling speed, that will be out in time to deal with any such pressure. 2. You scout that Toss has gas at his natural. If he doesn't, you make a reactive roach warren! Every zerg scouts to a toss' natural gas to learn what they are doing. 3 and 4 gas can be many things, but only zero gas can be a 4 gate+1/6+ gate all-in.
The speedling sets you back a bit, but by letting you consistently deny proxies it gives you a longer droning window.
Well the most interesting thing, was that Nestea was at 70+ supply at the 8:00 mark in both of the games, despite the fast single gas. He was not set back at all. Besides maybe 2-3 other zergs (idra, drg.....drg), very few zergs ever hit 70+ in a tournament game. I don't think you'd ever see a Code A level zerg (ie not nestea for a week, but regulars like july, bbongbbong, bumblebee, lucky) EVER hit 70+ supply. You watch ZvP of say, an obscure code a zerg like lucky or bongbong - they are always in the lower 60's, sometimes even 50's, at the 8:00 mark.
There is a class of difference in the macro between Nestea and BongBong, lucky, etc. You compare DRG to Lucky, I'd say the average supply difference by the 8:00 mark is almost 20.
Nestea doesn't really hit the same marks that the absolute best zergs do. So it's impressive he hits 70+ with this fast single gas.
I think he's hitting such high supply, because he doesnt maynard workers to his third though. Speaking of which, I'm not sure if DRG or other pro zergs do that. I know I always maynard 4+4 workers to my third in zvp... maybe that's why I personally struggle to hit 70+. Either way, he's hitting 70+, and that's just impressive, as intuition would lead you to believe that Nestea getting such a fast single gas would cause him to lose drones or econ significantly.
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Doesn't work against a non FFEing toss! One of the reasons I switched away from FFE.
User was warned for this post
EDIT: I'll give evidence.
If Z goes up to 3bases vrs a NoNy style 2gate, you can:
a) Pressure, which is good against a player w/o roaches considering you push out at 6 with sentry/zealot (4sentry/3zealot or different combinations depending on your mood ). I've never done this vrs this exact build but I can't imagine it not working.
b) Fast hallu scout to see mutas coming. My favorite response to this is blink allin with 2cannons at main and nat (assuming you've gone 2gate fe, forge -> robo +3rd gate) you hallu scout spire, cancel robo throw up council, chrono blink and +1 cut probes when your nat is saturated and push out with stalker/sentry at their 3rd.
Nestea probably wouldn't do this vrs a Toss that doesn't ffe.
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Well the most interesting thing, was that Nestea was at 70+ supply at the 8:00 mark in both of the games, despite the fast single gas. He was not set back at all. Besides maybe 2-3 other zergs (idra, drg.....drg), very few zergs ever hit 70+ in a tournament game. I don't think you'd ever see a Code A level zerg (ie not nestea for a week, but regulars like july, bbongbbong, bumblebee, lucky) EVER hit 70+ supply. You watch ZvP of say, an obscure code a zerg like lucky or bongbong - they are always in the lower 60's, sometimes even 50's, at the 8:00 mark.
I don't know if you watched proleague at all, but Jaedong and Effort easily hit 75 supply at 8 min against protoss. Soulkey failed, but I think his last round of drones may have gotten him to 70 only shortly after 8 min. Despite that, all of them severely failed miserably when it came down to figuring out how to actually fight a battle. Hopefully they'll pick that up over time.
Do you know why nestea hit 75 at 8:00 so easily even with early ling speed? - Stayed on one geyser the whole time (built 5 more when he was above 70 supply) - didn't build roach warren or evo chamber.
So I think he may fall behind but then catches up again between the 7 and 8 minute mark.
That's my guess. I think if you want to make yourself safe to switch to roaches, you need the 2nd gas and the roach warren, your economy is set back significantly. In his game against JYP he built a 7 min evo chamber and he was just a bit behind, but still pretty damn good.
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^ my guess is because he doesnt maynard workers to his third. He gets his natural, sends half of his main drones to it, and then rallies future drones to his third. I think that leads to a short term lead, ie 70+ supply by 8:00. I'm wondering if it's less in the long run (thats the point of maynarding after all), but with the way timings work out, maybe it's better to do that because of the whole exponential growth of zerg.
That's why I figured the 1 single gas would really hurt his econ, or at least most people and intuition would say that the fast ling speed would hurt your econ (exponential growth of zerg, having less drones early on is worse than more drones early, less later with warren and evo and 2nd gas).
Doesn't work against a non FFEing toss! One of the reasons I switched away from FFE.
User was warned for this post
EDIT: I'll give evidence.
If Z goes up to 3bases vrs a NoNy style 2gate, you can:
a) Pressure, which is good against a player w/o roaches considering you push out at 6 with sentry/zealot (4sentry/3zealot or different combinations depending on your mood ). I've never done this vrs this exact build but I can't imagine it not working.
b) Fast hallu scout to see mutas coming. My favorite response to this is blink allin with 2cannons at main and nat (assuming you've gone 2gate fe, forge -> robo +3rd gate) you hallu scout spire, cancel robo throw up council, chrono blink and +1 cut probes when your nat is saturated and push out with stalker/sentry at their 3rd.
Nestea probably wouldn't do this vrs a Toss that doesn't ffe.
...what is this i dont even :X
No, nestea wouldn't even grab as fast a third if you opened 1 base. He'd probably just crush you for doing a build that other pros and everyone else has written off as bad (unless it's a really weird small map, eg crossfire, dual sight). Of course nestea wouldn't do this vs a toss that doesn't FFE...
Your comment is just like saying "4 gate would crush this build". Like...lol?
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I think this build could be viable since the new OL buff allow to you scout the toss much easier and check their gas timings. With that, you can decide whether you want to skip or delay your roach warren.
But like what Belial said, reacting towards the gas scout of the toss we could get even greedier play with the proper scouting information.XDD
This build though will have trouble against 2 base quick upgrade +1 to +3 blink all-in variation. But then we can contain our opponent for a short time and do a base trade if ever needed.Not sure though this build is still fresh.
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^ Well, that's what is the intuitive answer. But I can't imagine nestea went into the game against lure, someone he knew was going to probably do some sort of 2 base all-in, and just hope he doesn't go blink all-in (granted, he probably could bet 99.9% it would be an immortal/sentry all-in).
I mean... so blink goes at 9:30. Nestea would scout your gas, react by not making a roach warren or evo, and pump lings out at 8:30. He had actually a ton of lings in both games at about the 9:00-10:00 mark, I imagine enough to hold the initial push out of a blink stalker all-in, make it absolutely impossible to try to get a forward pylon up, and stall just long enough so his roach warren+speed would finish.
I mean... 8:30 he would probably see what you are doing with an overseer, overlord sac, whatever... he'd have lair, so he would just go quickly to roaches and stall with his mass ling.
I have no idea. Just have to see it at play. Maybe nestea would get mutas out in time. I mean can you take on 15 mutas + mass lings with no sentries, and only blink, but maybe 20 stalkers? blink is great for offense, but it's not going to do shit when your stalkers are all the way across the map and 80 lings and 20 mutas are base trading you.
But lets say your blink stalker all-in holds. Even with blink i dont know if you can win a base trade against mutas (you need like mass cannons against mutas, maybe even HT as a requirement too, to win the base trade). Then, you have a huge problem of being on 2 base when it's 13 minutes into the game, and zerg has been on 3 base, 6 gas, and is taking his fourth, and is probably maxed out on ling/muta, and roaches as he adds them in because he knows you wont be able to take a third. Blink stalker all-in puts you further behind techwise than immortal/sentry would have.
The real killer of this build from nestea, is that it's a timing attack, but it's not all-in by any means - you have just as many drones, if not more. You actually have more tech, not less.
The real question is: Is there any Toss build/pressure that can punish a Zerg for not having roaches, when they have a bunch of mutas and early speedlings, and takes gas (so no 4 gate +1 or 6/7/8 gates.... unless maybe you took your gas as a fakeout, in the prediction they are doing this roachless muta rush?).
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On May 22 2012 11:03 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +I think the idea is pretty much, to get as many mutas as fast as possible. It's a variation of the 2base mutalisk build, but with 6gas. As far as I remember, he didn't have more than 6 (+ maybe very few) drones at the third. ... like i said, it's NOTHING like 2 base muta. There's a huge difference. 2 base muta gets mutas out quick enough that it will come before toss pressure, like stargate or warp gate pressure, and the 2nd difference is it's kind of all-in, as in if you don't do damage, you get really far behind. 3 base muta, on the other hand, is actually very very macro oriented, actually greedier than standard play by foregoing roach warren, +1, roaches, evo chamber, roach speed, burrow, burrow move...... and it's a completely reactionary build. Going 2 base muta is like a 6pool. You made the decision to do it, and you are just hoping Toss doesn't do one build over another. Going 3 base muta, like nestea, well, is new, and I really have no idea what to compare it too. It's probably more like fast third CC in TvZ, except you can scout enough with the overlord at the natural to be safe, and you are getting ling speed very early on. Normally, Nestea does seem to get a bit quicker gas than most people. I recall during MLG (like the games he had vs naniwa a bunch), he was taking 2xGas at 5:30. This was back before I think fast third was really fleshed out though, this was like 6 months ago, and most zergs were making 6:30 roach warrens and evos as standard, and wouldn't make lair until 90+ supply, first making drones then units (now lair is made about at 50 supply, as long as you see toss get gas at his nat, and even then, many zergs still get lair, especially those zergs who go late 3 gas, which results in a slightly later lair, but more drones, and by 8:00, a better econ, but is of course a little more susceptible to early pressure due to later roaches and ling speed). Him going 4:45 single gas is obviously very, very planned on his part. I'll try to look up a recent ZvP of him, and see when he took his gases and roach warren and evo chamber. I really doubt he went fast ling speed in those games. I mean, the fast mutas aren't the only deal here. Going an extremely fast single gas for ling speed, and then not using roaches, and reacting to toss' gas scout, seems like it could open up even greedier play by zerg. It would sure allow a much easier time against immortal/sentry if we could actually get more tech than mass roach against it just to barely survive (or in the case of sniper vs... forget who, on cloudkingdom, just happened, gsl... first game of the set... you lose your third and then push back and try to win by delaying toss third).
I'm not with you on this. I'd guess that 3base muta has a ton of trouble with 2SG builds (which you won't see with your OL if toss is good), just like 2base muta and you are still supposed to do damage, if your opponent does go for a third base - which is unlikely right now, due to the roachmetagame and the bad scouting of Protoss at this time. (though we are lacking evidence to confirm this, but reactive extra stargates and phoenixes like some Protoss have played against mutalisks on high level have shown quite some success against 2base muta and 3base roach-->muta, so I'd say that blind 2SG builds should just do very well against 3base muta as well)
And another one of the reasons why I said it is like 2base muta is, that you can't hold a third base with it, so you are basically going mutalisk exactly the same way you do off 2bases: turtle up on 2base with mass spine and don't try to hold your third.
On May 22 2012 11:03 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +I think 4gate pressure is still possible, because after all, you still can't afford mass speedling early, and especially on a map like antiga where a toss can hide pylons at the main or third base or the areas which are not covered by the watchtower, there is always a good chance you won't find the pylon(s) in time. And if Protoss does so, I'd guess that it could be rather efficient due to the +1 attack (at least the trade could turn out rather OK). But I'd say 4gate +1 pressure is highly unlikely, once you scout 3gas. Are you just low level, not read any of my guides, or any of my, or many other people's, posts in this thread? 1. You have super quick ling speed, that will be out in time to deal with any such pressure. 2. You scout that Toss has gas at his natural. If he doesn't, you make a reactive roach warren! Every zerg scouts to a toss' natural gas to learn what they are doing. 3 and 4 gas can be many things, but only zero gas can be a 4 gate+1/6+ gate all-in.
I think you are making a bigger deal out of the fast zergling speed then it is. There are quite a few zergs, who have gone ling speed rather early. Most of them just stopped doing so and one of the reasons was 4gate+1 pressure. Yes, you will deal with that pressure, but you will need to invest quite a bit more than Protoss does, due to the +1attack. About 2: At least on my level (mid-high Master EU), there are Protoss players who will show me 2gas a the main, then I go back to the natural and scout another 1gas that he mines from - but out of my sight he has taken out all his workers from the furthest away gas and he is on 2gas at that time and about to do an offensive gateway move. It's highly unlikely (like I said) that Protoss does a Gateway move, but it is not impossible and being overconfident not to face such a thing, may lose you a base or if it is a very quick 6-7gate with +1, even the game. Not to mention, that I think a superfast blink build or a double Stargate build might just straight up counter that mutaplay - and both of those usually take more than 2gas. (again, this would need some prolevel testing)
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Soooo...
Muta is the flavour of the month again?
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Italy12246 Posts
While the concept of 3base muta without roaches is pretty new (at least as a standard build) and definitely interesting (and scary as fuck as a protoss player), i think it's hard to read too much into a single professional game.
For all we know, it could have been good preparation from Nestea, if he knows that Lure goes immortals in most of his pvz's (random example), a sick risk taken by him that paid off (like his 9pool with drones vs July), an insanely good read he had that you can't do vs ladder players since they will throw crazy shit at you, or a combination of all the above.
Progamers are into each other's heads a lot so it's really, really hard to read much from a single game; i think we have to see if it gets done a lot in the next GSL/tournaments or if it was just a one game thing.
Also, in Idra's code a matches against Avenge he lost basically doing the same thing on Daybreak; Avenge opened stargate and followed it up with a blink stalker timing (which is kinda wierd in and of itself) and slaughtered Idra. Again, just a single game and it's Idra's ZvP, but that's something to think about.
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Big J. I really disagree with you, and the reasons are listed here. You make it sound like it's a static build, and it's not. Your reasoning that this build is bad, is because of a very niche, rare, obvious all-in. You saying this build won't work because of double stargate, is like saying it wont work because of 4 gate. It makes no sense.
I'd guess that 3base muta has a ton of trouble with 2SG builds (which you won't see with your OL if toss is good),
No, actually it would be a direct counter to it.
First off, there is no denying scouting of it. You *have* to get all 4 gas, and quickly, if you are going double stargate as Toss. Nestea, seeing you took your gas and knowing no 4 gate +1 or 6/7/8 gate all-in is coming, would skip a roach warren, and as zerg standard right now, every other zerg would completely drone up and not make units until 8:30 (at the earliest). And they would get an evo.
If they don't know enough to know you are going double stargate from your quick 4 gas, which most zergs would figure out right away from your quick 4 gas, they would figure it out when they sac an overlord at 7:00 and see an empty base.
There is not 'good toss won't let you scout it'. There's nothing to scout. All Zerg has to do, is see: 1. 4 gas 2. An empty base
You can hide 2 stargates, but you can't hide 6 gateways. Zerg will figure out pretty quickly that you mining over 600 gas by the 8:00 mark and you have less than 4 buildings to do that with, that the only way you could do that is by going double stargate.
Secondly, these mutas are coming out at 10:33, with the spire done at 10:00. if you watch the games, nestea made FIFTEEN mutas at 10:00. A stargate takes 1 minute, a void ray 1 minute. A double stargate will have 4 void rays at 10:00, maybe 1 more if he's chrono'ing hard. You could switch that with phoenixes, but 15 mutas are going to overpower 6 phoenixes, and even if they don't, 15 mutas + queens surely will. Zerg then simply adds corruptors, and lols as he overruns you. There's no way double stargate could keep up.
Third, all of the above about getting mutas at 10:00 is ridiculous - because Zerg would just get corruptors, not mutas, reactively, when he sends an overseer in and either sees the stargates, or sees an obvious lack of buildings meaning that it's only double stargate.
I dont think you realize how obvious double stargate is. No other build takes 4 gas so quickly, and no other build has a completely empty base. Toss can only have so many pylons at 7:00, there is no way you can deny zerg from thinking "Hey, 4 gas, I should probably be careful in case of stargate or DT, because if he isn't massing gateways for blink or immortal sentry, then he's probably SG/DT, so I'll be safe and add spores, and keep on the look out". Even if you surprise zerg with double stargate, then throw down 6 panic spores while corruptors are morphing.
just like 2base muta and you are still supposed to do damage, if your opponent does go for a third base - which is unlikely right now, due to the roachmetagame and the bad scouting of Protoss at this time. (though we are lacking evidence to confirm this, but reactive extra stargates and phoenixes like some Protoss have played against mutalisks on high level have shown quite some success against 2base muta and 3base roach-->muta, so I'd say that blind 2SG builds should just do very well against 3base muta as well)
2 base muta does not have a problem with double stargate. 2 base muta would get corruptors and take their third, and zerg would go instantly into drones, expanding, then hydras or infestors. And did I mention how obvious double stargate is with the quick 4 gas and an overlord seeing a completely empty base with no gateways put down in it?
And no, you don't have to do damage with this build. That's the thing.
2 base muta HAS to do damage because if you don't, you are on even bases with protoss, which never is a good situation.
3 base muta, the only problem with going mutas, is delaying your hive tech. You dont need hive anytime soon if you have 10:00 mutas. If the attack fails, oh well, you have 3 bases, taking a fourth with map control, and denying Toss' third.
Contrary to 2 base muta, this build is actually extremely greedy - it uses quick speed to deal with warp gate pressure, and forego roaches if you see toss take gas (which they almost always do - 4 gate +1 will have a hard time with no forward pylon and tons of speedlings and a reactive roach warren at 7:00, and 6/7/8 gate is no good anymore), which basically means you have a shitton more economy and gas to do with what you please.
In this case, mutas. Mutas that you can't deal with.
Double stargate is an extreme all-in. Toss don't do it that much anymore because of how obvious it is, and how easy it is for zergs to stop (hey just throw down 10 panic spores, eventually half will pop, and i kept all 3 bases alive and only lost 20 drones, im WAY ahead). It's not a common build.
Secondly, as ive said over and over beacuse i dont think you understand - if you are going double stargate, Zerg will react with queens and spores. There's a reason nestea has never lost to double stargate.
In fact, what's the one unit you don't need against double stargate? ROACHES LOL. Oh you are going double stargate? I will drone hardcore, make corruptors instead of mutas, and while im droning, im going to make even more drones, because no gateway pressure is coming annnnytime soon.
And another one of the reasons why I said it is like 2base muta is, that you can't hold a third base with it, so you are basically going mutalisk exactly the same way you do off 2bases: turtle up on 2base with mass spine and don't try to hold your third.
huh?
No.
You did watch Nestea vs Lure right? It wasn't like 'nestea can't hold his third". It was more like "nestea saw lure do an immortal/sentry push, so he forced a base trade, and mutas will always beat immortals in a base trade". The only reason we haven't seen this before, is because everyone gets roaches, which cuts into muta production and count and timing. Nestea GAVE his third to Lure, and look what happened. Nestea crushed in the base trade. If Lure didn't play aggressively, nestea would have forever denied Lure's third while he transitioned into whatever the hell he wants to lolwin.
I think you are making a bigger deal out of the fast zergling speed then it is. There are quite a few zergs, who have gone ling speed rather early. Most of them just stopped doing so and one of the reasons was 4gate+1 pressure. Yes, you will deal with that pressure, but you will need to invest quite a bit more than Protoss does, due to the +1attack. About 2: At least on my level (mid-high Master EU), there are Protoss players who will show me 2gas a the main, then I go back to the natural and scout another 1gas that he mines from - but out of my sight he has taken out all his workers from the furthest away gas and he is on 2gas at that time and about to do an offensive gateway move. It's highly unlikely (like I said) that Protoss does a Gateway move, but it is not impossible and being overconfident not to face such a thing, may lose you a base or if it is a very quick 6-7gate with +1, even the game. Not to mention, that I think a superfast blink build or a double Stargate build might just straight up counter that mutaplay - and both of those usually take more than 2gas. (again, this would need some prolevel testing)
Yes, you are right that some zergs have gone fast speed. I recall a zerg recently going fast ling speed in the GSL in zvp, on metropolis. I think it was lucky, but it was one of those code a zergs (could have been sniper or bbongbong).
The difference was, was that he still went roaches, and he still used roaches to hold aggression in the mid-game. He didn't capitalize on his quick ling speed, as a way to skip roaches entirely, so that he could tech quicker.
You can't go 4 gate +1 pressure if you take your gas at your natural. No zerg is going, including Nestea, is NOT going to make that 6:30 roach warren if he sees no gas at the natural, for the incoming 4 gate +1 pressure.
I don't get it. You are mid-masters, you should understand all of this, and you should have understood my posts above. You dont skip the roach warren if you see no gas at the natural. Anything less than 4 gate +1 pressure off 2 gas, will be manhandled by mass speedlings.
A fast blink build is something that might punish the lack of roach warren - the difference between immortal/sentry, and blink, is that blink will hit before 10:00, when the mutas are started, and a 6/7/8 gate is obvious with no gas at the natural, in which case zerg will abandon his mutas and instead go for roaches.
TLDR: See no gas, get roach warren at 6:30 (yes, you are behind a few drones than if you didnt have ling speed, but you will absolutely deny any forward pylon and handle the pressure easier because of the quick speed) See gas, skip the roach warren See 4 gas, definitely skip the roach warren, drone hard, sac an overlord to see if base is empty, if it is, get spores and corruptors.
youll notice against jyp, he gets spores up because he knows the stargate is coming btw.
While the concept of 3base muta without roaches is pretty new (at least as a standard build) and definitely interesting (and scary as fuck as a protoss player), i think it's hard to read too much into a single professional game.
2 games. What's interesting, is how clearly nestea did it with a plan. I've watched Nestea's play in zvp for a while now, and while he does take gas earlier than most zergs (i think this is more likely because he really pioneered fast third in zvp, and thats just when they thought they needed it back then), he definitely does not take only 1 gas instead of 2 or 3, and he does not make it as early as 5:45.
Secondly, no roach warren is fucking insane. That is completely new, and he did it in both games.
Immortal/sentry is incredibly hard for zerg to deal with - nestea even tweeted with DRG about how imbalanced it was. That he came up with a counter to immortal/sentry, that isn't just 'spam roaches, hope you survive lol" is amazing. He clearly practiced what he did there.
It was just common knowledge that in midgame zvp, you use roach/ling to hold early pressure, and you use roach/ling to hold 2 base all-ins. That's it, that's just how that stage of the game goes. You can do whatever the hell you want afterwards, but you NEED mass roach to hold 2 base all-ins, and you can't afford to get mutas, infestors, arguably even hydras, out in tiem to deal with them.
Now, I get it if nestea metagamed them, and just skipped roaches so he could go super fast mutas, and just played greedy as shit knowing no 6/7/8 gate would come, but here's why I don't believe that, and believe nestea practcied what he did, with intent:
1. He got a super quick ling speed. If he was going to be risky and greedy, why not just skip both ling speed and roaches? Using standard play as it is today, Nestea definitely could have gotten away with it in game 1 against JYP, who went stargate, to which the typical answer is to just make more drones because you know no pressure is coming. In the 2nd game, immortal/sentry is an extremely strong all-in, but it comes at 10:30, and Lure did a version where he just sat in his base, a-moved out at 10:30. Nestea would have probably crushed that push if he skipped ling speed, skipped roach warren like he did, and then gotten both a little later, after 8:30-9:00.
Going ling speed so early hurts you econ. You generally never see zergs do that, because it's ridiculous (besides that 1 zerg who does it, and i dont know if he's top of the crop in zvp exactly), and useless. But nestea, the greediest macro motherfucker, did it because he knew it was better to get quick ling speed, than to get roaches and slower speed.
There's a tiny gamble - that toss will get gas at his natural and tech up, rather than do a push that requires roaches to hold. But here's the beauty of it all - these pushes, 6/7/8 gate all-in or 4 gate+1, hurt toss a lot more than zerg is hurt by getting ling speed a minute earlier. All nestea has to do is get his 6:30 warren, be behind a couple drones rather than normal, but crush it just the same, and end up with a huge lead, just the same.
2. No roach warren. that's just unheard of. You really never see zergs never get a roach warren in zvp by the 7:30 mark. Conventional zvp is that you NEED roaches to hold off any sort of 2 base toss pressure.
nestea completely sidestepped this pressure, by going mutas insanely quickly and just going for a base trade against any sort of push. How is toss supposed to handle 10:00 base trade with 15+ mutas and 80 lings? You just can't!
Also, in Idra's code a matches against Avenge he lost basically doing the same thing on Daybreak; Avenge opened stargate and followed it up with a blink stalker timing (which is kinda wierd in and of itself) and slaughtered Idra. Again, just a single game and it's Idra's ZvP, but that's something to think about.
Link?
I'm sure idra got a roach warren, did not get a super fast ling speed, and idra is idra. Why, why, why would you get mutas against a blink timing. That's like getting a third vs a clearly 1 basing toss who's going 4 gate. That's so idra right there.
The reason nestea got away with his mutas, is because he totally skipped roach tech. That's 100 gas in speed, possibly burrow, a ton of gas in making roaches, a ton of econ lost by grabbing a 2nd gas and evo chamber and roach warren.
nestea did not grab his 2nd gas until 7:30, and not just his 2nd, but 2nd, 3rd, and 4th. And then he grabs his 5th and 6th at 8:00. The 'standard' gas timings right now, are 2 gas at 6:0. He delayed his 2nd gas by 1:30, quite a long time.
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Italy12246 Posts
http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls1/vod/66831 game two. No roaches made; it's not completely identical but it's similar enough to what you are talking about. Idra does cut drones a lot faster which i didn't remember, and honestly i don't know how that changes the outcome of the game, so eh. But i agree, idra is idra
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On May 22 2012 18:43 Teoita wrote:http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls1/vod/66831 game two. No roaches made; it's not completely identical but it's similar enough to what you are talking about. Idra does cut drones a lot faster which i didn't remember, and honestly i don't know how that changes the outcome of the game, so eh. But i agree, idra is idra
Idra starts +1 carapace before starting lair. Idra's spire completes at 12:00 - Nestea's spire completes at 10:00. The builds are dramatically different - the timing of nestea's mutas are the crucial component after all.
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Awesome post, Belial!
While I've been improving dramatically in my ZvP, I am being totally annihilated by the infamous 2 immortal/prism/sentry push. While I know I die due to my macro not being good enough (55-60 supply at 8:00) I see top zergs around the world being raped by that same push (as the zerg's skill/macro level increases, so the execution of the all-in becomes better). So I am caught in the mentality of "if I improve my macro to the point I kill consistently protosses of my level, protosses of the next level will still kick my ass with the exact same build". Since this happens to every Z around there we've had the complaints in the DRG-Nestea tweets.
So I see this build as an extremelly refreshing change in pace, actually giving a strategic alternative instead of a tactical/build execution one. And to be honest, I would have never paid enough attention to Nestea's strategical decisions if it weren't for that thread of yours!
I am definately going to work on this but I would like to ask you a question: What happens if the toss goes for a 2base blink stalker/immortal +2 attack all-in and he moves out at 160+ supply? If I recall corectly, that could happen at 13-14min. You would have commited to mutalisks too hard to be able to go infestor/roach/spine to hold it, while it seems to me that in a base trade vs a push like that would go like:
-160 supply toss army can kill a 200/200 zerg that is not massing spines WITH infestor and +2 attack roach. -Toss warp-ins will only happen in his main, therefore not reinforcing his already unstoppable army and spending all minerals on stalker/cannon to hold the base trade.
+2blink stalkers can kill a large muta/ling force if battle happens in tight areas with cannons (aka a base of a toss who is prepared for the base trade).
Should the zerg try to hold the front with spine/muta/ling? Should he rush for infestor if he sees blink upgrading from 2base while planting spines? Help me, I lose every time a toss turtles in 2base and masses stalker/immortal T_T
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