I recently look at this video on You tube that describe problems done by infested terrans :
In Patch 4.11 they tried to increased their mana cost from 25 to 50, i was hype by this new idea of reducing the number of infested terrans but it doesn t seem to solve the problem. It seems that developpers don t want to make spells stackable, but if we respect their mindset, so you just have to increase mana cost from 25 to X and add a small cooldown (like 0.5, 0.7 approximately)to the spell to avoid this "stackable effect" no ? Then they can be a problem because they don t warn until they shoot, but even if i don t know galaxy editor, there s also simple solution to avoid this problem (for example make 1 damage to the closest unit)
I mean it could be easy to fix infested terrans, and in removing this spell, blizzard created a lot of other issues against skytoss especially
I can't comment on balance decisions as I'm not expert. From gameplay perspective as a player, playing against an army of "free" units can be super boring as it feels like going nowhere. Swarm hosts spawn free units. Brood lords spawn free units. Infestors used to spawn free units.
I'm glad one of them is out of equation as sometimes battle is not decided at once, sometimes you have to retreat or zerg keeps hiding behind defense which gives them time to regenerate mana for more infested terrans and you enter this loop of fighting free units again.
On May 19 2024 18:04 SC-Shield wrote: I can't comment on balance decisions as I'm not expert. From gameplay perspective as a player, playing against an army of "free" units can be super boring as it feels like going nowhere. Swarm hosts spawn free units. Brood lords spawn free units. Infestors used to spawn free units.
I'm glad one of them is out of equation as sometimes battle is not decided at once, sometimes you have to retreat or zerg keeps hiding behind defense which gives them time to regenerate mana for more infested terrans and you enter this loop of fighting free units again.
Yes i forgot to talk about their prices. But here also, it simple to make them cost a litle bit of minerals. I would be glad to return to SC2 if the PTR server could be customizable by community every two months with one idea, implemented with a vote. I think the process of balancing the game is necessary to the life of SC2, it can be stopped because like the game is competitive execution based then the meta is blocked (until the game looks like to an old school game like SC:BW)
Infested terrans looks a real problem with broodlords, so the balance process would be focused in this case adjusting the mana cost while the balance process of cooldown will be adjusted against skytoss
I don't think the problem is JUST the Infested Terran either, I think the problem is the Infestor in general.
If you give the Infestor all 3 of Fungal Growth, Infested Terrans and Neural Parasite, you're basically giving a caster unit the ability to do everything on the battlefield all at the same time. It can spawn a versatile DPS unit, it can use a splash damaging spell that makes using the Infested Terrans even easier and it can neural high value targets all under the cover of the Infested Terrans.
Whenever Infested Terran spam became a problem in the meta it was never JUST the infested Terrans that were the problem it was mass infestor in general or Infestor/Broodlord as a unit comp.
We've seen those units put an absolute dump on the entire game for long periods of time twice now, and with Infested Terrans removed we pretty much never have to worry about that again.
Yes i agree you are absolutely right, but it also means that these three spells are core tools of zerg race
Thanks for answers guys. It looks like some abilities can be switched between units, especially i m thinking from infestator to a "mother queen" (which could be a competitive spellcaster (+infested terrans spell) unit on battlefield, created from queen units)
On May 19 2024 18:19 Vindicare605 wrote: I don't think the problem is JUST the Infested Terran either, I think the problem is the Infestor in general.
If you give the Infestor all 3 of Fungal Growth, Infested Terrans and Neural Parasite, you're basically giving a caster unit the ability to do everything on the battlefield all at the same time. It can spawn a versatile DPS unit, it can use a splash damaging spell that makes using the Infested Terrans even easier and it can neural high value targets all under the cover of the Infested Terrans.
Whenever Infested Terran spam became a problem in the meta it was never JUST the infested Terrans that were the problem it was mass infestor in general or Infestor/Broodlord as a unit comp.
We've seen those units put an absolute dump on the entire game for long periods of time twice now, and with Infested Terrans removed we pretty much never have to worry about that again.
It was removed because it was completely broken, if you watched the games back then you would know why. Zerg has no problems dealing with Protoss air, you have vipers , you have fungal, you have corruptors and you can move your spores around all over the map where you have creep that cost 0 supply.
Free units in a economy based game has always been a bad idea, because it is hard to balance.
You don't want to fight them simply because you want to trade minerals for energy.
Removing it was one of the best things that happened to sc2
On May 19 2024 18:19 Vindicare605 wrote: I don't think the problem is JUST the Infested Terran either, I think the problem is the Infestor in general.
If you give the Infestor all 3 of Fungal Growth, Infested Terrans and Neural Parasite, you're basically giving a caster unit the ability to do everything on the battlefield all at the same time. It can spawn a versatile DPS unit, it can use a splash damaging spell that makes using the Infested Terrans even easier and it can neural high value targets all under the cover of the Infested Terrans.
Whenever Infested Terran spam became a problem in the meta it was never JUST the infested Terrans that were the problem it was mass infestor in general or Infestor/Broodlord as a unit comp.
We've seen those units put an absolute dump on the entire game for long periods of time twice now, and with Infested Terrans removed we pretty much never have to worry about that again.
Meanwhile, terran massing 40+ghosts.
That’s only a thing because ghosts are a pretty tanky combat unit as well. I don’t think it’s particularly ideal either but hey.
Broadly speaking the Infestor was an outlier in it had 3 very potent spells that synergised pretty well.
Taking it down to having 2 just puts it in line with Ghosts and Templars.
Vipers have 3 but they’re more support abilities and you don’t benefit from massing them.
Infested Terrans on the other hand benefitted from increasing the number of infestors, you could hit fungals and pump them out to wipe out Protoss air pretty effectively, even more so if you neuralled valuable units. It was a bit much
Even as a Zerg-player, I totally agree with Grubby on this topic: Free units are stupid and shouldn't be a thing. In a game that is SO economy-heavy like SC2, you have a hard time to make an Energy vs. Money balancing work. So any free unit needs to be either heavily situational or the caster needs to come with a very high upfront cost.
I don't think anyone has ever thought things like "oh wow, seeing this worker-line melt against infested terrans or auto-turrets is SO fun, I need more of that!"
On May 19 2024 23:37 Drahkn wrote: It was removed because it was completely broken, if you watched the games back then you would know why. Zerg has no problems dealing with Protoss air, you have vipers , you have fungal, you have corruptors and you can move your spores around all over the map where you have creep that cost 0 supply.
Free units in a economy based game has always been a bad idea, because it is hard to balance.
You don't want to fight them simply because you want to trade minerals for energy.
Removing it was one of the best things that happened to sc2
Broodlords have free units and they are well implemented in game.
Ghost have a small cooldown on their steady target ability which help them to be balanced compared to hots era. In adding a small cooldown and a warning song it can be fun to deal with those trash slow marines.
To me it s like if developpers gave up the idea of a free unit which fit the zerg race. Indeed, swarm host are also free but they aren t used at pro level, so i would be glad to see SH removed and a clever addition of this famous spell because i can figure out that infested terran spell can be efficient if a cooldown is added.
On May 19 2024 23:37 Drahkn wrote: It was removed because it was completely broken, if you watched the games back then you would know why. Zerg has no problems dealing with Protoss air, you have vipers , you have fungal, you have corruptors and you can move your spores around all over the map where you have creep that cost 0 supply.
Free units in a economy based game has always been a bad idea, because it is hard to balance.
You don't want to fight them simply because you want to trade minerals for energy.
Removing it was one of the best things that happened to sc2
Broodlords have free units and they are well implemented in game.
Yeah, I also do not agree with the idea that there is anything inherently wrong with free units in RTS games.
Ravens, broodlords, and swarm hosts all produce free units, in one way or another, and none of them are overpowered or even particularly strong in their current form. Also, free units play a large role in other established RTS games. The best example is WC3. Many different heroes – Far Seer, Archmage, Beast Master, Keeper, and so on – create free and impactful units, all of which are an essential part of the game. I didn't watch the Grubby video, but it is therefore interesting that he criticizes the concept. Removing those units would be tantamount to completely redesigning WC3.
Furthermore, most so-called 'free' units are obviously not actually free. They are usually spawned by casters, which are costly, and they usually cost energy or time, which are resources in themselves.
The problem with infested terrans back in the day, as someone else said, was not so much this particular spell in isolation, but its combination with the other spells of the same unit and its synergy with the other units of the same fraction.
But I do agree that in a macro-oriented game like SC2 balancing free units is a delicate task.
On May 19 2024 23:37 Drahkn wrote: It was removed because it was completely broken, if you watched the games back then you would know why. Zerg has no problems dealing with Protoss air, you have vipers , you have fungal, you have corruptors and you can move your spores around all over the map where you have creep that cost 0 supply.
Free units in a economy based game has always been a bad idea, because it is hard to balance.
You don't want to fight them simply because you want to trade minerals for energy.
Removing it was one of the best things that happened to sc2
Broodlords have free units and they are well implemented in game.
Yeah, I also do not agree with the idea that there is anything inherently wrong with free units in RTS games.
Ravens, broodlords, and swarm hosts all produce free units, in one way or another, and none of them are overpowered or even particularly strong in their current form. Also, free units play a large role in other established RTS games. The best example is WC3. Many different heroes – Far Seer, Archmage, Beast Master, Keeper, and so on – create free and impactful units, all of which are an essential part of the game. I didn't watch the Grubby video, but it is therefore interesting that he criticizes the concept. Removing those units would be tantamount to completely redesigning WC3.
Furthermore, most so-called 'free' units are obviously not actually free. They are usually spawned by casters, which are costly, and they usually cost energy or time, which are resources in themselves.
The problem with infested terrans back in the day, as someone else said, was not so much this particular spell in isolation, but its combination with the other spells of the same unit and its synergy with the other units of the same fraction.
You are missing a crucial aspect about Free Units in WC3 - they are in fact NOT free, since killing them gives experience points - quite a bit actually. There are also abilities in the game that counter summons, while not being particularly focused on that job (e.g. Mass Dispell from Priests isn't just there to kill Feral Spirits, it can also remove Spirit Link or Bloodlust). Which is one of the reasons why summons get weaker over time in WC3, not stronger.
Of course you also have to pay something in SC2 and you have to trade energy - but energy is an infinite ressource, if you keep the unit alive - which usually is quite easy to do. Raven-harass for example has a much higher chance of survival than Liberator-harass I would say. Sure, not all free-units are equally broken, but you have to be very causious about it. Broodlords for example are of course strong, but they are also a late-game unit that is highly immobile, so you can't just send one Broodlord into your opponents mineral line and fly out of it, like you could do with HotS-Swarmhosts, Infestors or Ravens.
A few options to balance Infested Terrans could be to actually not make them free. Wonky idea, but what if they dropped ressources for your opponent? Not that I would advertise going for such a concept, but it atleast would give them a prize. Another idea could be something from WC3: Just limit the amount. I actually didn't know that until recently, but apparently you can only summon 24 Skeletons with Necromancers at a time, any skeleton over that number just destroys an old one.
On May 19 2024 23:37 Drahkn wrote: It was removed because it was completely broken, if you watched the games back then you would know why. Zerg has no problems dealing with Protoss air, you have vipers , you have fungal, you have corruptors and you can move your spores around all over the map where you have creep that cost 0 supply.
Free units in a economy based game has always been a bad idea, because it is hard to balance.
You don't want to fight them simply because you want to trade minerals for energy.
Removing it was one of the best things that happened to sc2
Broodlords have free units and they are well implemented in game.
Yeah, I also do not agree with the idea that there is anything inherently wrong with free units in RTS games.
Ravens, broodlords, and swarm hosts all produce free units, in one way or another, and none of them are overpowered or even particularly strong in their current form. Also, free units play a large role in other established RTS games. The best example is WC3. Many different heroes – Far Seer, Archmage, Beast Master, Keeper, and so on – create free and impactful units, all of which are an essential part of the game. I didn't watch the Grubby video, but it is therefore interesting that he criticizes the concept. Removing those units would be tantamount to completely redesigning WC3.
Furthermore, most so-called 'free' units are obviously not actually free. They are usually spawned by casters, which are costly, and they usually cost energy or time, which are resources in themselves.
The problem with infested terrans back in the day, as someone else said, was not so much this particular spell in isolation, but its combination with the other spells of the same unit and its synergy with the other units of the same fraction.
You are missing a crucial aspect about Free Units in WC3 - they are in fact NOT free, since killing them gives experience points - quite a bit actually. There are also abilities in the game that counter summons, while not being particularly focused on that job (e.g. Mass Dispell from Priests isn't just there to kill Feral Spirits, it can also remove Spirit Link or Bloodlust). Which is one of the reasons why summons get weaker over time in WC3, not stronger.
I know and completely agree. But this just goes to show that free units can be made part of a balanced RTS game. It just has to be done in a way that coheres with and is offset by the other mechanics of that game. I just argued against the idea that free units should not be a thing at all.
On May 20 2024 02:30 Balnazza wrote: Of course you also have to pay something in SC2 and you have to trade energy - but energy is an infinite ressource, if you keep the unit alive - which usually is quite easy to do. Raven-harass for example has a much higher chance of survival than Liberator-harass I would say. Sure, not all free-units are equally broken, but you have to be very causious about it. Broodlords for example are of course strong, but they are also a late-game unit that is highly immobile, so you can't just send one Broodlord into your opponents mineral line and fly out of it, like you could do with HotS-Swarmhosts, Infestors or Ravens.
Again, I completely agree. But this demonstrates the same point: Free units can be designed to work well; it just requires much care and thought (though this is true of achieving asymmetrical balance in RTS games in general).
Overall I think that if desgined well, free units can be both fun (because of the added variety) and interesting (because of the added complexity).
On May 20 2024 02:30 Balnazza wrote: Another idea could be something from WC3: Just limit the amount. I actually didn't know that until recently, but apparently you can only summon 24 Skeletons with Necromancers at a time, any skeleton over that number just destroys an old one.
Huh, interesting. Didn't know that either. Would be another option.
On May 19 2024 18:19 Vindicare605 wrote: I don't think the problem is JUST the Infested Terran either, I think the problem is the Infestor in general.
If you give the Infestor all 3 of Fungal Growth, Infested Terrans and Neural Parasite, you're basically giving a caster unit the ability to do everything on the battlefield all at the same time. It can spawn a versatile DPS unit, it can use a splash damaging spell that makes using the Infested Terrans even easier and it can neural high value targets all under the cover of the Infested Terrans.
Whenever Infested Terran spam became a problem in the meta it was never JUST the infested Terrans that were the problem it was mass infestor in general or Infestor/Broodlord as a unit comp.
We've seen those units put an absolute dump on the entire game for long periods of time twice now, and with Infested Terrans removed we pretty much never have to worry about that again.
Meanwhile, terran massing 40+ghosts.
Mass Ghost is problematic also, but not anywhere near the same degree. Mass Ghost has never absolutely screwed the meta for 6 months to a year at a time the way Infestor/Broodlord has.
Also the problem is different in the specifics. Ghost themselves are the combat unit, they have to put themselves on the frontline with their own rifles in order to be effective, Infestors could just spawn a wall of free units before an engagement to give them cover to get their spells off. It's a different dynamic, one with a lot more counter play options from the Zerg.
On May 20 2024 03:54 Fleetfeet wrote: The big design question you'll want to answer first is "What do we want Infested Terran to do?"
Changing egg sizes and adding mini cooldowns are all well and good, but if you don't have an established goal for the changes then what are you doing?
And I think that's why Blizz just ended up removing the spell. If they can't find a way to balance it the way they intended it to be used (they clearly did intend swarms of Infested Terrans to be a thing) then what's the point of even having the spell in the game.
If they changed it to a cooldown what purpose would infested terrans even have? Wouldn't they basically become shitty auto turrets at that point?
Gotta remember that Infested Terrans weren't the first spell in Starcraft 2 that got removed, Hunter Killer (later Seeker missile) was. They couldn't find a way to make that spell work either, so they got rid of it in place of something else.
On May 20 2024 03:54 Fleetfeet wrote: The big design question you'll want to answer first is "What do we want Infested Terran to do?"
Changing egg sizes and adding mini cooldowns are all well and good, but if you don't have an established goal for the changes then what are you doing?
When i create games i m trying to answer to a simple question : what type of game would i like to play? What features of the game do i enjoy ? (***) I never finished a game (game maker software or tableboard game), and i talked about the 4 principes i will implement first in the mod for the first release in the link below. Then in the second version it s possible to focus on fun and cool redesign of abilities.
These recent answers given by community make me think to implement the infested terran spell to a 'combat queens' units which are being produced by morphing a queen for some gas. They will be able to spread creep for gas cost, they also have the healing spell and they could throw eggs into tank lines. (if it is the question) The original queen won t be able to create tumors, the two features (injection and tumors) will be separated to answer to queen complains (adding a gas cost to the equation). Then a research upgrade for unlock infested terran spell would be created into the Lair.
(***) for example, a roach upgrade for cross over cliffs is one of my wish, and i m not questionning on the fact if it will be possible in term of balance
EPT
