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On May 20 2024 04:42 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2024 03:54 Fleetfeet wrote:
The big design question you'll want to answer first is "What do we want Infested Terran to do?"
Changing egg sizes and adding mini cooldowns are all well and good, but if you don't have an established goal for the changes then what are you doing? And I think that's why Blizz just ended up removing the spell. If they can't find a way to balance it the way they intended it to be used (they clearly did intend swarms of Infested Terrans to be a thing) then what's the point of even having the spell in the game. If they changed it to a cooldown what purpose would infested terrans even have? Wouldn't they basically become shitty auto turrets at that point? Gotta remember that Infested Terrans weren't the first spell in Starcraft 2 that got removed, Hunter Killer (later Seeker missile) was. They couldn't find a way to make that spell work either, so they got rid of it in place of something else.
Exactly, nevermind entire units that got removed (Warhound? thank god) or concepts snipped in the very early phases (Original widow mines). I don't lament the loss of infested terran - I think the combination of burrowed movement on infestors made the spell difficult to balance, and then the overlap with swarm host and brood lord puts it in a space where I don't mind it being removed at all.
If we're talking about bringing it back, I'm not opposed to it. The problem is the question "Why bring it back? What does that do?" needs to have a decent answer first. Honestly, the answer "Nothing, let's make it too shitty to be competitive-viable, let's just bring it back for flavour" suits me just fine, and I don't care how that's implemented. Make each cast cost 20 minerals, make the IT rooted to the ground and not move, whatever. I don't mind shitty flavour units in RTS, and in the case of Infested Terran it being a shitty flavour unit is BW accurate.
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I think the question we should be asking is "how can we make Microbrial Shroud not such a shitty spell so that we actually feel like Infested Terrans were replaced with something rather than just removed with nothing replacing them like it feels now?"
I think that's the bigger question here. No one seems to care that Seeker Missile is gone for Terran since anti-armor missile and Interference Matrix has more than made up for it being gone. The Raven is a much more interesting unit than it used to be.
The Infestor basically feels like it only has 2 spells now that Infested Terran is gone. THAT is the issue. Microbrial Shroud is so fucking niche in its usefulness that most people forget it even exists, but the problem is that Zerg is such a powerhouse of a race in pro play, that there doesn't seem to be any pressing need to give them a brand new spell that's actually useful when they already win everything every year.
So what do we do? Well nothing, like we've been doing. That's why nothing has happened. The minute Zerg starts actually losing again, especially in later game situations (which they are currently dominant in) is the minute we can look to the Infestor and giving that third spell the love it desperately needs.
The other problem is that anything we give to the Infestor, has to be designed in such a way so that it works around the other spellcasters in Zerg's arsenal, the Queen and the Viper. The Raven and Ghost or the High Templar and Sentry have almost no synergy with each other based on when they come out in the game and what kinds of situations they are useful in.
But the Infestor and Viper are a different story entirely. The Viper made, Infested Terrans 10x as good as they already were because you could blind units you are dropping Infested Terrans on, or Abduct carriers into Infested Terrans to be picked off.
Any new spell the Infestor gets will have to be designed in such a way that the Viper doesn't make it that much stronger, which is another problem the unit has.
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But you have to be careful, look what they've done with Broodling.
They bring Infested Terrans back into the game, and then they get a round of Broodling nerf. So then you have no difference between Microbrial Shroud or IT.
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Free unit isn't an issue. I absolutely disagree with some here that goes "oh but energy is infinite energy".
With the exception of viper, energy is an extremely scarce resource, hence the regen rate and energy cap.
I personally think ghost is the most broken unit, and precisely because how cost efficient with their snipe and relatively safe to cast.
So I don't think infested terran is that OP after the health nerf. I think nerfing the cast range would be more than enough.
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I just love infested terrans, should make them available again.
My take
-Remove swarm host. (I always think that broodlings are just enough as the Zerg free units, why need locusts then?).
-Change infestor's microbial shrouds ability to overseer. Infestors retained three different spells as before. Overseer now has three different spells instead of two before. But the microbial shrouds could be real buff for the spawned infested terran. That's why changing to overseer I think will need the user to multitask a bit.
-Increase the supply of infestors to 3, instead of 2. (Similar with the supply of swarm host).
-Increase the mana needed for casting infested terran, make it the same when ravens casting auto turrets for harassing.
-Let the infested terrans behave like locusts. When spawning, they can fly over the cliff and drop down whenever they see the enemy's units.
- Similar with roaches, user needs to upgrade "Tunneling Claws" on Infestation Pits so that their Infestors can move when burrowing.
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On May 21 2024 21:39 swarminfestor wrote:
I just love infested terrans, should make them available again.
My take
-Remove swarm host. (I always think that broodlings are just enough as the Zerg free units, why need locusts then?).
-Change infestor's microbial shrouds ability to overseer. Infestors retained three different spells as before. Overseer now has three different spells instead of two before. But the microbial shrouds could be real buff for the spawned infested terran. That's why changing to overseer I think will need the user to multitask a bit.
-Increase the supply of infestors to 3, instead of 2. (Similar with the supply of swarm host).
-Increase the mana needed for casting infested terran, make it the same when ravens casting auto turrets for harassing.
-Let the infested terrans behave like locusts. When spawning, they can fly over the cliff and drop down whenever they see the enemy's units.
- Similar with roaches, user needs to upgrade "Tunneling Claws" on Infestation Pits so that their Infestors can move when burrowing.
I never saw someone use infestors for harrasing the drones, probes and SCV before as much as ravens and oracles. With combo of infested terrans and fungal, the user can use droplord to bring the infestors closer to resource location. Then, infestors will cast the infested terrans. The eggs will need some time to break. The fungal ability will slow down the miners to evacuate while waiting for the infested terrans to hatch.
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On May 20 2024 06:11 Vindicare605 wrote:
I think the question we should be asking is "how can we make Microbrial Shroud not such a shitty spell so that we actually feel like Infested Terrans were replaced with something rather than just removed with nothing replacing them like it feels now?"
I think that's the bigger question here. No one seems to care that Seeker Missile is gone for Terran since anti-armor missile and Interference Matrix has more than made up for it being gone. The Raven is a much more interesting unit than it used to be.
The Infestor basically feels like it only has 2 spells now that Infested Terran is gone. THAT is the issue. Microbrial Shroud is so fucking niche in its usefulness that most people forget it even exists, but the problem is that Zerg is such a powerhouse of a race in pro play, that there doesn't seem to be any pressing need to give them a brand new spell that's actually useful when they already win everything every year.
So what do we do? Well nothing, like we've been doing. That's why nothing has happened. The minute Zerg starts actually losing again, especially in later game situations (which they are currently dominant in) is the minute we can look to the Infestor and giving that third spell the love it desperately needs.
The other problem is that anything we give to the Infestor, has to be designed in such a way so that it works around the other spellcasters in Zerg's arsenal, the Queen and the Viper. The Raven and Ghost or the High Templar and Sentry have almost no synergy with each other based on when they come out in the game and what kinds of situations they are useful in.
But the Infestor and Viper are a different story entirely. The Viper made, Infested Terrans 10x as good as they already were because you could blind units you are dropping Infested Terrans on, or Abduct carriers into Infested Terrans to be picked off.
Any new spell the Infestor gets will have to be designed in such a way that the Viper doesn't make it that much stronger, which is another problem the unit has.
Ok. So if IT then Abduct spell has to be nerfed against massive units (note in the community brain)
Thanks
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On May 21 2024 22:03 Vision_ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2024 06:11 Vindicare605 wrote:
I think the question we should be asking is "how can we make Microbrial Shroud not such a shitty spell so that we actually feel like Infested Terrans were replaced with something rather than just removed with nothing replacing them like it feels now?"
I think that's the bigger question here. No one seems to care that Seeker Missile is gone for Terran since anti-armor missile and Interference Matrix has more than made up for it being gone. The Raven is a much more interesting unit than it used to be.
The Infestor basically feels like it only has 2 spells now that Infested Terran is gone. THAT is the issue. Microbrial Shroud is so fucking niche in its usefulness that most people forget it even exists, but the problem is that Zerg is such a powerhouse of a race in pro play, that there doesn't seem to be any pressing need to give them a brand new spell that's actually useful when they already win everything every year.
So what do we do? Well nothing, like we've been doing. That's why nothing has happened. The minute Zerg starts actually losing again, especially in later game situations (which they are currently dominant in) is the minute we can look to the Infestor and giving that third spell the love it desperately needs.
The other problem is that anything we give to the Infestor, has to be designed in such a way so that it works around the other spellcasters in Zerg's arsenal, the Queen and the Viper. The Raven and Ghost or the High Templar and Sentry have almost no synergy with each other based on when they come out in the game and what kinds of situations they are useful in.
But the Infestor and Viper are a different story entirely. The Viper made, Infested Terrans 10x as good as they already were because you could blind units you are dropping Infested Terrans on, or Abduct carriers into Infested Terrans to be picked off.
Any new spell the Infestor gets will have to be designed in such a way that the Viper doesn't make it that much stronger, which is another problem the unit has. Ok. So if IT then Abduct spell has to be nerfed against massive units (note in the community brain)
Abduct shouldn't be allowed against Mothership. Because you can only make one Mothership at one time.
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Are you able to hold a zerg push ? because if so, you can chronoboost your mothership unit
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On May 21 2024 22:06 swarminfestor wrote:
Abduct shouldn't be allowed against Mothership. Because you can only make one Mothership at one time.
But then again, should mothership really be viable? Other races dont have hero units. Protoss already has 2 capital ships (carrier, tempest), while other races only have one.
The fact that they have a THIRD capitalship, and the only race with a hero unit, opening a SECOND recall, is just a bit overboard and feels pretty unfair.
Sometimes, between all the extra stuff protoss has in battery, recalls/overcharge at nexus, warp-in instantly at any base, mothership recall, 2 capital ships, 3 solid splash options.. it just feels like protoss has had one more expansion pack over the other races sometimes. It feels like they just have more stuff.
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Northern Ireland27464 Posts
On May 21 2024 22:03 swarminfestor wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2024 21:39 swarminfestor wrote:
I just love infested terrans, should make them available again.
My take
-Remove swarm host. (I always think that broodlings are just enough as the Zerg free units, why need locusts then?).
-Change infestor's microbial shrouds ability to overseer. Infestors retained three different spells as before. Overseer now has three different spells instead of two before. But the microbial shrouds could be real buff for the spawned infested terran. That's why changing to overseer I think will need the user to multitask a bit.
-Increase the supply of infestors to 3, instead of 2. (Similar with the supply of swarm host).
-Increase the mana needed for casting infested terran, make it the same when ravens casting auto turrets for harassing.
-Let the infested terrans behave like locusts. When spawning, they can fly over the cliff and drop down whenever they see the enemy's units.
- Similar with roaches, user needs to upgrade "Tunneling Claws" on Infestation Pits so that their Infestors can move when burrowing.
I never saw someone use infestors for harrasing the drones, probes and SCV before as much as ravens and oracles. With combo of infested terrans and fungal, the user can use droplord to bring the infestors closer to resource location. Then, infestors will cast the infested terrans. The eggs will need some time to break. The fungal ability will slow down the miners to evacuate while waiting for the infested terrans to hatch.
It used to be really, really potent, especially on outlying bases.
Like auto-turret harass on crack, although a little less easy to get into position for
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Northern Ireland27464 Posts
On May 20 2024 05:58 Fleetfeet wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2024 04:42 Vindicare605 wrote:On May 20 2024 03:54 Fleetfeet wrote:
The big design question you'll want to answer first is "What do we want Infested Terran to do?"
Changing egg sizes and adding mini cooldowns are all well and good, but if you don't have an established goal for the changes then what are you doing? And I think that's why Blizz just ended up removing the spell. If they can't find a way to balance it the way they intended it to be used (they clearly did intend swarms of Infested Terrans to be a thing) then what's the point of even having the spell in the game. If they changed it to a cooldown what purpose would infested terrans even have? Wouldn't they basically become shitty auto turrets at that point? Gotta remember that Infested Terrans weren't the first spell in Starcraft 2 that got removed, Hunter Killer (later Seeker missile) was. They couldn't find a way to make that spell work either, so they got rid of it in place of something else. Exactly, nevermind entire units that got removed (Warhound? thank god) or concepts snipped in the very early phases (Original widow mines). I don't lament the loss of infested terran - I think the combination of burrowed movement on infestors made the spell difficult to balance, and then the overlap with swarm host and brood lord puts it in a space where I don't mind it being removed at all. If we're talking about bringing it back, I'm not opposed to it. The problem is the question "Why bring it back? What does that do?" needs to have a decent answer first. Honestly, the answer "Nothing, let's make it too shitty to be competitive-viable, let's just bring it back for flavour" suits me just fine, and I don't care how that's implemented. Make each cast cost 20 minerals, make the IT rooted to the ground and not move, whatever. I don't mind shitty flavour units in RTS, and in the case of Infested Terran it being a shitty flavour unit is BW accurate.
I think it’d have pretty fun uses more in BW than in SC2 come to think of it. Tanking siege tank hits/triggering friendly fire, or even just throwing obstacles to block enemy units a bit.
Zergs already have the viper, which may as well be renamed ‘anti-tank caster’ because SC2 isn’t BW and the more cute ways of dealing with tank lines stop being viable past a certain supply. Likewise SC2 units are very ‘slippery’ so tactically blocking stuff off is less of an option too.
I agree that SC2 is quite lacking in very niche/borderline useless abilities.
We need SC2’s scout equivalent dagnabbit!
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EPT
