I recently look at this video on You tube that describe problems done by infested terrans :
In Patch 4.11 they tried to increased their mana cost from 25 to 50, i was hype by this new idea of reducing the number of infested terrans but it doesn t seem to solve the problem. It seems that developpers don t want to make spells stackable, but if we respect their mindset, so you just have to increase mana cost from 25 to X and add a small cooldown (like 0.5, 0.7 approximately)to the spell to avoid this "stackable effect" no ? Then they can be a problem because they don t warn until they shoot, but even if i don t know galaxy editor, there s also simple solution to avoid this problem (for example make 1 damage to the closest unit)
I mean it could be easy to fix infested terrans, and in removing this spell, blizzard created a lot of other issues against skytoss especially
I can't comment on balance decisions as I'm not expert. From gameplay perspective as a player, playing against an army of "free" units can be super boring as it feels like going nowhere. Swarm hosts spawn free units. Brood lords spawn free units. Infestors used to spawn free units.
I'm glad one of them is out of equation as sometimes battle is not decided at once, sometimes you have to retreat or zerg keeps hiding behind defense which gives them time to regenerate mana for more infested terrans and you enter this loop of fighting free units again.
On May 19 2024 18:04 SC-Shield wrote: I can't comment on balance decisions as I'm not expert. From gameplay perspective as a player, playing against an army of "free" units can be super boring as it feels like going nowhere. Swarm hosts spawn free units. Brood lords spawn free units. Infestors used to spawn free units.
I'm glad one of them is out of equation as sometimes battle is not decided at once, sometimes you have to retreat or zerg keeps hiding behind defense which gives them time to regenerate mana for more infested terrans and you enter this loop of fighting free units again.
Yes i forgot to talk about their prices. But here also, it simple to make them cost a litle bit of minerals. I would be glad to return to SC2 if the PTR server could be customizable by community every two months with one idea, implemented with a vote. I think the process of balancing the game is necessary to the life of SC2, it can be stopped because like the game is competitive execution based then the meta is blocked (until the game looks like to an old school game like SC:BW)
Infested terrans looks a real problem with broodlords, so the balance process would be focused in this case adjusting the mana cost while the balance process of cooldown will be adjusted against skytoss
I don't think the problem is JUST the Infested Terran either, I think the problem is the Infestor in general.
If you give the Infestor all 3 of Fungal Growth, Infested Terrans and Neural Parasite, you're basically giving a caster unit the ability to do everything on the battlefield all at the same time. It can spawn a versatile DPS unit, it can use a splash damaging spell that makes using the Infested Terrans even easier and it can neural high value targets all under the cover of the Infested Terrans.
Whenever Infested Terran spam became a problem in the meta it was never JUST the infested Terrans that were the problem it was mass infestor in general or Infestor/Broodlord as a unit comp.
We've seen those units put an absolute dump on the entire game for long periods of time twice now, and with Infested Terrans removed we pretty much never have to worry about that again.
Yes i agree you are absolutely right, but it also means that these three spells are core tools of zerg race
Thanks for answers guys. It looks like some abilities can be switched between units, especially i m thinking from infestator to a "mother queen" (which could be a competitive spellcaster (+infested terrans spell) unit on battlefield, created from queen units)
On May 19 2024 18:19 Vindicare605 wrote: I don't think the problem is JUST the Infested Terran either, I think the problem is the Infestor in general.
If you give the Infestor all 3 of Fungal Growth, Infested Terrans and Neural Parasite, you're basically giving a caster unit the ability to do everything on the battlefield all at the same time. It can spawn a versatile DPS unit, it can use a splash damaging spell that makes using the Infested Terrans even easier and it can neural high value targets all under the cover of the Infested Terrans.
Whenever Infested Terran spam became a problem in the meta it was never JUST the infested Terrans that were the problem it was mass infestor in general or Infestor/Broodlord as a unit comp.
We've seen those units put an absolute dump on the entire game for long periods of time twice now, and with Infested Terrans removed we pretty much never have to worry about that again.
It was removed because it was completely broken, if you watched the games back then you would know why. Zerg has no problems dealing with Protoss air, you have vipers , you have fungal, you have corruptors and you can move your spores around all over the map where you have creep that cost 0 supply.
Free units in a economy based game has always been a bad idea, because it is hard to balance.
You don't want to fight them simply because you want to trade minerals for energy.
Removing it was one of the best things that happened to sc2
On May 19 2024 18:19 Vindicare605 wrote: I don't think the problem is JUST the Infested Terran either, I think the problem is the Infestor in general.
If you give the Infestor all 3 of Fungal Growth, Infested Terrans and Neural Parasite, you're basically giving a caster unit the ability to do everything on the battlefield all at the same time. It can spawn a versatile DPS unit, it can use a splash damaging spell that makes using the Infested Terrans even easier and it can neural high value targets all under the cover of the Infested Terrans.
Whenever Infested Terran spam became a problem in the meta it was never JUST the infested Terrans that were the problem it was mass infestor in general or Infestor/Broodlord as a unit comp.
We've seen those units put an absolute dump on the entire game for long periods of time twice now, and with Infested Terrans removed we pretty much never have to worry about that again.
Meanwhile, terran massing 40+ghosts.
That’s only a thing because ghosts are a pretty tanky combat unit as well. I don’t think it’s particularly ideal either but hey.
Broadly speaking the Infestor was an outlier in it had 3 very potent spells that synergised pretty well.
Taking it down to having 2 just puts it in line with Ghosts and Templars.
Vipers have 3 but they’re more support abilities and you don’t benefit from massing them.
Infested Terrans on the other hand benefitted from increasing the number of infestors, you could hit fungals and pump them out to wipe out Protoss air pretty effectively, even more so if you neuralled valuable units. It was a bit much
Even as a Zerg-player, I totally agree with Grubby on this topic: Free units are stupid and shouldn't be a thing. In a game that is SO economy-heavy like SC2, you have a hard time to make an Energy vs. Money balancing work. So any free unit needs to be either heavily situational or the caster needs to come with a very high upfront cost.
I don't think anyone has ever thought things like "oh wow, seeing this worker-line melt against infested terrans or auto-turrets is SO fun, I need more of that!"
On May 19 2024 23:37 Drahkn wrote: It was removed because it was completely broken, if you watched the games back then you would know why. Zerg has no problems dealing with Protoss air, you have vipers , you have fungal, you have corruptors and you can move your spores around all over the map where you have creep that cost 0 supply.
Free units in a economy based game has always been a bad idea, because it is hard to balance.
You don't want to fight them simply because you want to trade minerals for energy.
Removing it was one of the best things that happened to sc2
Broodlords have free units and they are well implemented in game.
Ghost have a small cooldown on their steady target ability which help them to be balanced compared to hots era. In adding a small cooldown and a warning song it can be fun to deal with those trash slow marines.
To me it s like if developpers gave up the idea of a free unit which fit the zerg race. Indeed, swarm host are also free but they aren t used at pro level, so i would be glad to see SH removed and a clever addition of this famous spell because i can figure out that infested terran spell can be efficient if a cooldown is added.
On May 19 2024 23:37 Drahkn wrote: It was removed because it was completely broken, if you watched the games back then you would know why. Zerg has no problems dealing with Protoss air, you have vipers , you have fungal, you have corruptors and you can move your spores around all over the map where you have creep that cost 0 supply.
Free units in a economy based game has always been a bad idea, because it is hard to balance.
You don't want to fight them simply because you want to trade minerals for energy.
Removing it was one of the best things that happened to sc2
Broodlords have free units and they are well implemented in game.
Yeah, I also do not agree with the idea that there is anything inherently wrong with free units in RTS games.
Ravens, broodlords, and swarm hosts all produce free units, in one way or another, and none of them are overpowered or even particularly strong in their current form. Also, free units play a large role in other established RTS games. The best example is WC3. Many different heroes – Far Seer, Archmage, Beast Master, Keeper, and so on – create free and impactful units, all of which are an essential part of the game. I didn't watch the Grubby video, but it is therefore interesting that he criticizes the concept. Removing those units would be tantamount to completely redesigning WC3.
Furthermore, most so-called 'free' units are obviously not actually free. They are usually spawned by casters, which are costly, and they usually cost energy or time, which are resources in themselves.
The problem with infested terrans back in the day, as someone else said, was not so much this particular spell in isolation, but its combination with the other spells of the same unit and its synergy with the other units of the same fraction.
But I do agree that in a macro-oriented game like SC2 balancing free units is a delicate task.
On May 19 2024 23:37 Drahkn wrote: It was removed because it was completely broken, if you watched the games back then you would know why. Zerg has no problems dealing with Protoss air, you have vipers , you have fungal, you have corruptors and you can move your spores around all over the map where you have creep that cost 0 supply.
Free units in a economy based game has always been a bad idea, because it is hard to balance.
You don't want to fight them simply because you want to trade minerals for energy.
Removing it was one of the best things that happened to sc2
Broodlords have free units and they are well implemented in game.
Yeah, I also do not agree with the idea that there is anything inherently wrong with free units in RTS games.
Ravens, broodlords, and swarm hosts all produce free units, in one way or another, and none of them are overpowered or even particularly strong in their current form. Also, free units play a large role in other established RTS games. The best example is WC3. Many different heroes – Far Seer, Archmage, Beast Master, Keeper, and so on – create free and impactful units, all of which are an essential part of the game. I didn't watch the Grubby video, but it is therefore interesting that he criticizes the concept. Removing those units would be tantamount to completely redesigning WC3.
Furthermore, most so-called 'free' units are obviously not actually free. They are usually spawned by casters, which are costly, and they usually cost energy or time, which are resources in themselves.
The problem with infested terrans back in the day, as someone else said, was not so much this particular spell in isolation, but its combination with the other spells of the same unit and its synergy with the other units of the same fraction.
You are missing a crucial aspect about Free Units in WC3 - they are in fact NOT free, since killing them gives experience points - quite a bit actually. There are also abilities in the game that counter summons, while not being particularly focused on that job (e.g. Mass Dispell from Priests isn't just there to kill Feral Spirits, it can also remove Spirit Link or Bloodlust). Which is one of the reasons why summons get weaker over time in WC3, not stronger.
Of course you also have to pay something in SC2 and you have to trade energy - but energy is an infinite ressource, if you keep the unit alive - which usually is quite easy to do. Raven-harass for example has a much higher chance of survival than Liberator-harass I would say. Sure, not all free-units are equally broken, but you have to be very causious about it. Broodlords for example are of course strong, but they are also a late-game unit that is highly immobile, so you can't just send one Broodlord into your opponents mineral line and fly out of it, like you could do with HotS-Swarmhosts, Infestors or Ravens.
A few options to balance Infested Terrans could be to actually not make them free. Wonky idea, but what if they dropped ressources for your opponent? Not that I would advertise going for such a concept, but it atleast would give them a prize. Another idea could be something from WC3: Just limit the amount. I actually didn't know that until recently, but apparently you can only summon 24 Skeletons with Necromancers at a time, any skeleton over that number just destroys an old one.
On May 19 2024 23:37 Drahkn wrote: It was removed because it was completely broken, if you watched the games back then you would know why. Zerg has no problems dealing with Protoss air, you have vipers , you have fungal, you have corruptors and you can move your spores around all over the map where you have creep that cost 0 supply.
Free units in a economy based game has always been a bad idea, because it is hard to balance.
You don't want to fight them simply because you want to trade minerals for energy.
Removing it was one of the best things that happened to sc2
Broodlords have free units and they are well implemented in game.
Yeah, I also do not agree with the idea that there is anything inherently wrong with free units in RTS games.
Ravens, broodlords, and swarm hosts all produce free units, in one way or another, and none of them are overpowered or even particularly strong in their current form. Also, free units play a large role in other established RTS games. The best example is WC3. Many different heroes – Far Seer, Archmage, Beast Master, Keeper, and so on – create free and impactful units, all of which are an essential part of the game. I didn't watch the Grubby video, but it is therefore interesting that he criticizes the concept. Removing those units would be tantamount to completely redesigning WC3.
Furthermore, most so-called 'free' units are obviously not actually free. They are usually spawned by casters, which are costly, and they usually cost energy or time, which are resources in themselves.
The problem with infested terrans back in the day, as someone else said, was not so much this particular spell in isolation, but its combination with the other spells of the same unit and its synergy with the other units of the same fraction.
You are missing a crucial aspect about Free Units in WC3 - they are in fact NOT free, since killing them gives experience points - quite a bit actually. There are also abilities in the game that counter summons, while not being particularly focused on that job (e.g. Mass Dispell from Priests isn't just there to kill Feral Spirits, it can also remove Spirit Link or Bloodlust). Which is one of the reasons why summons get weaker over time in WC3, not stronger.
I know and completely agree. But this just goes to show that free units can be made part of a balanced RTS game. It just has to be done in a way that coheres with and is offset by the other mechanics of that game. I just argued against the idea that free units should not be a thing at all.
On May 20 2024 02:30 Balnazza wrote: Of course you also have to pay something in SC2 and you have to trade energy - but energy is an infinite ressource, if you keep the unit alive - which usually is quite easy to do. Raven-harass for example has a much higher chance of survival than Liberator-harass I would say. Sure, not all free-units are equally broken, but you have to be very causious about it. Broodlords for example are of course strong, but they are also a late-game unit that is highly immobile, so you can't just send one Broodlord into your opponents mineral line and fly out of it, like you could do with HotS-Swarmhosts, Infestors or Ravens.
Again, I completely agree. But this demonstrates the same point: Free units can be designed to work well; it just requires much care and thought (though this is true of achieving asymmetrical balance in RTS games in general).
Overall I think that if desgined well, free units can be both fun (because of the added variety) and interesting (because of the added complexity).
On May 20 2024 02:30 Balnazza wrote: Another idea could be something from WC3: Just limit the amount. I actually didn't know that until recently, but apparently you can only summon 24 Skeletons with Necromancers at a time, any skeleton over that number just destroys an old one.
Huh, interesting. Didn't know that either. Would be another option.
On May 19 2024 18:19 Vindicare605 wrote: I don't think the problem is JUST the Infested Terran either, I think the problem is the Infestor in general.
If you give the Infestor all 3 of Fungal Growth, Infested Terrans and Neural Parasite, you're basically giving a caster unit the ability to do everything on the battlefield all at the same time. It can spawn a versatile DPS unit, it can use a splash damaging spell that makes using the Infested Terrans even easier and it can neural high value targets all under the cover of the Infested Terrans.
Whenever Infested Terran spam became a problem in the meta it was never JUST the infested Terrans that were the problem it was mass infestor in general or Infestor/Broodlord as a unit comp.
We've seen those units put an absolute dump on the entire game for long periods of time twice now, and with Infested Terrans removed we pretty much never have to worry about that again.
Meanwhile, terran massing 40+ghosts.
Mass Ghost is problematic also, but not anywhere near the same degree. Mass Ghost has never absolutely screwed the meta for 6 months to a year at a time the way Infestor/Broodlord has.
Also the problem is different in the specifics. Ghost themselves are the combat unit, they have to put themselves on the frontline with their own rifles in order to be effective, Infestors could just spawn a wall of free units before an engagement to give them cover to get their spells off. It's a different dynamic, one with a lot more counter play options from the Zerg.
On May 20 2024 03:54 Fleetfeet wrote: The big design question you'll want to answer first is "What do we want Infested Terran to do?"
Changing egg sizes and adding mini cooldowns are all well and good, but if you don't have an established goal for the changes then what are you doing?
And I think that's why Blizz just ended up removing the spell. If they can't find a way to balance it the way they intended it to be used (they clearly did intend swarms of Infested Terrans to be a thing) then what's the point of even having the spell in the game.
If they changed it to a cooldown what purpose would infested terrans even have? Wouldn't they basically become shitty auto turrets at that point?
Gotta remember that Infested Terrans weren't the first spell in Starcraft 2 that got removed, Hunter Killer (later Seeker missile) was. They couldn't find a way to make that spell work either, so they got rid of it in place of something else.
On May 20 2024 03:54 Fleetfeet wrote: The big design question you'll want to answer first is "What do we want Infested Terran to do?"
Changing egg sizes and adding mini cooldowns are all well and good, but if you don't have an established goal for the changes then what are you doing?
When i create games i m trying to answer to a simple question : what type of game would i like to play? What features of the game do i enjoy ? (***) I never finished a game (game maker software or tableboard game), and i talked about the 4 principes i will implement first in the mod for the first release in the link below. Then in the second version it s possible to focus on fun and cool redesign of abilities.
These recent answers given by community make me think to implement the infested terran spell to a 'combat queens' units which are being produced by morphing a queen for some gas. They will be able to spread creep for gas cost, they also have the healing spell and they could throw eggs into tank lines. (if it is the question) The original queen won t be able to create tumors, the two features (injection and tumors) will be separated to answer to queen complains (adding a gas cost to the equation). Then a research upgrade for unlock infested terran spell would be created into the Lair.
(***) for example, a roach upgrade for cross over cliffs is one of my wish, and i m not questionning on the fact if it will be possible in term of balance
On May 20 2024 03:54 Fleetfeet wrote: The big design question you'll want to answer first is "What do we want Infested Terran to do?"
Changing egg sizes and adding mini cooldowns are all well and good, but if you don't have an established goal for the changes then what are you doing?
And I think that's why Blizz just ended up removing the spell. If they can't find a way to balance it the way they intended it to be used (they clearly did intend swarms of Infested Terrans to be a thing) then what's the point of even having the spell in the game.
If they changed it to a cooldown what purpose would infested terrans even have? Wouldn't they basically become shitty auto turrets at that point?
Gotta remember that Infested Terrans weren't the first spell in Starcraft 2 that got removed, Hunter Killer (later Seeker missile) was. They couldn't find a way to make that spell work either, so they got rid of it in place of something else.
Exactly, nevermind entire units that got removed (Warhound? thank god) or concepts snipped in the very early phases (Original widow mines). I don't lament the loss of infested terran - I think the combination of burrowed movement on infestors made the spell difficult to balance, and then the overlap with swarm host and brood lord puts it in a space where I don't mind it being removed at all.
If we're talking about bringing it back, I'm not opposed to it. The problem is the question "Why bring it back? What does that do?" needs to have a decent answer first. Honestly, the answer "Nothing, let's make it too shitty to be competitive-viable, let's just bring it back for flavour" suits me just fine, and I don't care how that's implemented. Make each cast cost 20 minerals, make the IT rooted to the ground and not move, whatever. I don't mind shitty flavour units in RTS, and in the case of Infested Terran it being a shitty flavour unit is BW accurate.
I think the question we should be asking is "how can we make Microbrial Shroud not such a shitty spell so that we actually feel like Infested Terrans were replaced with something rather than just removed with nothing replacing them like it feels now?"
I think that's the bigger question here. No one seems to care that Seeker Missile is gone for Terran since anti-armor missile and Interference Matrix has more than made up for it being gone. The Raven is a much more interesting unit than it used to be.
The Infestor basically feels like it only has 2 spells now that Infested Terran is gone. THAT is the issue. Microbrial Shroud is so fucking niche in its usefulness that most people forget it even exists, but the problem is that Zerg is such a powerhouse of a race in pro play, that there doesn't seem to be any pressing need to give them a brand new spell that's actually useful when they already win everything every year.
So what do we do? Well nothing, like we've been doing. That's why nothing has happened. The minute Zerg starts actually losing again, especially in later game situations (which they are currently dominant in) is the minute we can look to the Infestor and giving that third spell the love it desperately needs.
The other problem is that anything we give to the Infestor, has to be designed in such a way so that it works around the other spellcasters in Zerg's arsenal, the Queen and the Viper. The Raven and Ghost or the High Templar and Sentry have almost no synergy with each other based on when they come out in the game and what kinds of situations they are useful in.
But the Infestor and Viper are a different story entirely. The Viper made, Infested Terrans 10x as good as they already were because you could blind units you are dropping Infested Terrans on, or Abduct carriers into Infested Terrans to be picked off.
Any new spell the Infestor gets will have to be designed in such a way that the Viper doesn't make it that much stronger, which is another problem the unit has.
But you have to be careful, look what they've done with Broodling. They bring Infested Terrans back into the game, and then they get a round of Broodling nerf. So then you have no difference between Microbrial Shroud or IT.
I just love infested terrans, should make them available again.
My take -Remove swarm host. (I always think that broodlings are just enough as the Zerg free units, why need locusts then?). -Change infestor's microbial shrouds ability to overseer. Infestors retained three different spells as before. Overseer now has three different spells instead of two before. But the microbial shrouds could be real buff for the spawned infested terran. That's why changing to overseer I think will need the user to multitask a bit. -Increase the supply of infestors to 3, instead of 2. (Similar with the supply of swarm host). -Increase the mana needed for casting infested terran, make it the same when ravens casting auto turrets for harassing. -Let the infested terrans behave like locusts. When spawning, they can fly over the cliff and drop down whenever they see the enemy's units. - Similar with roaches, user needs to upgrade "Tunneling Claws" on Infestation Pits so that their Infestors can move when burrowing.
On May 21 2024 21:39 swarminfestor wrote: I just love infested terrans, should make them available again.
My take -Remove swarm host. (I always think that broodlings are just enough as the Zerg free units, why need locusts then?). -Change infestor's microbial shrouds ability to overseer. Infestors retained three different spells as before. Overseer now has three different spells instead of two before. But the microbial shrouds could be real buff for the spawned infested terran. That's why changing to overseer I think will need the user to multitask a bit. -Increase the supply of infestors to 3, instead of 2. (Similar with the supply of swarm host). -Increase the mana needed for casting infested terran, make it the same when ravens casting auto turrets for harassing. -Let the infested terrans behave like locusts. When spawning, they can fly over the cliff and drop down whenever they see the enemy's units. - Similar with roaches, user needs to upgrade "Tunneling Claws" on Infestation Pits so that their Infestors can move when burrowing.
I never saw someone use infestors for harrasing the drones, probes and SCV before as much as ravens and oracles. With combo of infested terrans and fungal, the user can use droplord to bring the infestors closer to resource location. Then, infestors will cast the infested terrans. The eggs will need some time to break. The fungal ability will slow down the miners to evacuate while waiting for the infested terrans to hatch.
On May 20 2024 06:11 Vindicare605 wrote: I think the question we should be asking is "how can we make Microbrial Shroud not such a shitty spell so that we actually feel like Infested Terrans were replaced with something rather than just removed with nothing replacing them like it feels now?"
I think that's the bigger question here. No one seems to care that Seeker Missile is gone for Terran since anti-armor missile and Interference Matrix has more than made up for it being gone. The Raven is a much more interesting unit than it used to be.
The Infestor basically feels like it only has 2 spells now that Infested Terran is gone. THAT is the issue. Microbrial Shroud is so fucking niche in its usefulness that most people forget it even exists, but the problem is that Zerg is such a powerhouse of a race in pro play, that there doesn't seem to be any pressing need to give them a brand new spell that's actually useful when they already win everything every year.
So what do we do? Well nothing, like we've been doing. That's why nothing has happened. The minute Zerg starts actually losing again, especially in later game situations (which they are currently dominant in) is the minute we can look to the Infestor and giving that third spell the love it desperately needs.
The other problem is that anything we give to the Infestor, has to be designed in such a way so that it works around the other spellcasters in Zerg's arsenal, the Queen and the Viper. The Raven and Ghost or the High Templar and Sentry have almost no synergy with each other based on when they come out in the game and what kinds of situations they are useful in.
But the Infestor and Viper are a different story entirely. The Viper made, Infested Terrans 10x as good as they already were because you could blind units you are dropping Infested Terrans on, or Abduct carriers into Infested Terrans to be picked off.
Any new spell the Infestor gets will have to be designed in such a way that the Viper doesn't make it that much stronger, which is another problem the unit has.
Ok. So if IT then Abduct spell has to be nerfed against massive units (note in the community brain) Thanks
On May 20 2024 06:11 Vindicare605 wrote: I think the question we should be asking is "how can we make Microbrial Shroud not such a shitty spell so that we actually feel like Infested Terrans were replaced with something rather than just removed with nothing replacing them like it feels now?"
I think that's the bigger question here. No one seems to care that Seeker Missile is gone for Terran since anti-armor missile and Interference Matrix has more than made up for it being gone. The Raven is a much more interesting unit than it used to be.
The Infestor basically feels like it only has 2 spells now that Infested Terran is gone. THAT is the issue. Microbrial Shroud is so fucking niche in its usefulness that most people forget it even exists, but the problem is that Zerg is such a powerhouse of a race in pro play, that there doesn't seem to be any pressing need to give them a brand new spell that's actually useful when they already win everything every year.
So what do we do? Well nothing, like we've been doing. That's why nothing has happened. The minute Zerg starts actually losing again, especially in later game situations (which they are currently dominant in) is the minute we can look to the Infestor and giving that third spell the love it desperately needs.
The other problem is that anything we give to the Infestor, has to be designed in such a way so that it works around the other spellcasters in Zerg's arsenal, the Queen and the Viper. The Raven and Ghost or the High Templar and Sentry have almost no synergy with each other based on when they come out in the game and what kinds of situations they are useful in.
But the Infestor and Viper are a different story entirely. The Viper made, Infested Terrans 10x as good as they already were because you could blind units you are dropping Infested Terrans on, or Abduct carriers into Infested Terrans to be picked off.
Any new spell the Infestor gets will have to be designed in such a way that the Viper doesn't make it that much stronger, which is another problem the unit has.
Ok. So if IT then Abduct spell has to be nerfed against massive units (note in the community brain)
Abduct shouldn't be allowed against Mothership. Because you can only make one Mothership at one time.
Abduct shouldn't be allowed against Mothership. Because you can only make one Mothership at one time.
But then again, should mothership really be viable? Other races dont have hero units. Protoss already has 2 capital ships (carrier, tempest), while other races only have one.
The fact that they have a THIRD capitalship, and the only race with a hero unit, opening a SECOND recall, is just a bit overboard and feels pretty unfair.
Sometimes, between all the extra stuff protoss has in battery, recalls/overcharge at nexus, warp-in instantly at any base, mothership recall, 2 capital ships, 3 solid splash options.. it just feels like protoss has had one more expansion pack over the other races sometimes. It feels like they just have more stuff.
On May 21 2024 21:39 swarminfestor wrote: I just love infested terrans, should make them available again.
My take -Remove swarm host. (I always think that broodlings are just enough as the Zerg free units, why need locusts then?). -Change infestor's microbial shrouds ability to overseer. Infestors retained three different spells as before. Overseer now has three different spells instead of two before. But the microbial shrouds could be real buff for the spawned infested terran. That's why changing to overseer I think will need the user to multitask a bit. -Increase the supply of infestors to 3, instead of 2. (Similar with the supply of swarm host). -Increase the mana needed for casting infested terran, make it the same when ravens casting auto turrets for harassing. -Let the infested terrans behave like locusts. When spawning, they can fly over the cliff and drop down whenever they see the enemy's units. - Similar with roaches, user needs to upgrade "Tunneling Claws" on Infestation Pits so that their Infestors can move when burrowing.
I never saw someone use infestors for harrasing the drones, probes and SCV before as much as ravens and oracles. With combo of infested terrans and fungal, the user can use droplord to bring the infestors closer to resource location. Then, infestors will cast the infested terrans. The eggs will need some time to break. The fungal ability will slow down the miners to evacuate while waiting for the infested terrans to hatch.
It used to be really, really potent, especially on outlying bases.
Like auto-turret harass on crack, although a little less easy to get into position for
On May 20 2024 03:54 Fleetfeet wrote: The big design question you'll want to answer first is "What do we want Infested Terran to do?"
Changing egg sizes and adding mini cooldowns are all well and good, but if you don't have an established goal for the changes then what are you doing?
And I think that's why Blizz just ended up removing the spell. If they can't find a way to balance it the way they intended it to be used (they clearly did intend swarms of Infested Terrans to be a thing) then what's the point of even having the spell in the game.
If they changed it to a cooldown what purpose would infested terrans even have? Wouldn't they basically become shitty auto turrets at that point?
Gotta remember that Infested Terrans weren't the first spell in Starcraft 2 that got removed, Hunter Killer (later Seeker missile) was. They couldn't find a way to make that spell work either, so they got rid of it in place of something else.
Exactly, nevermind entire units that got removed (Warhound? thank god) or concepts snipped in the very early phases (Original widow mines). I don't lament the loss of infested terran - I think the combination of burrowed movement on infestors made the spell difficult to balance, and then the overlap with swarm host and brood lord puts it in a space where I don't mind it being removed at all.
If we're talking about bringing it back, I'm not opposed to it. The problem is the question "Why bring it back? What does that do?" needs to have a decent answer first. Honestly, the answer "Nothing, let's make it too shitty to be competitive-viable, let's just bring it back for flavour" suits me just fine, and I don't care how that's implemented. Make each cast cost 20 minerals, make the IT rooted to the ground and not move, whatever. I don't mind shitty flavour units in RTS, and in the case of Infested Terran it being a shitty flavour unit is BW accurate.
I think it’d have pretty fun uses more in BW than in SC2 come to think of it. Tanking siege tank hits/triggering friendly fire, or even just throwing obstacles to block enemy units a bit.
Zergs already have the viper, which may as well be renamed ‘anti-tank caster’ because SC2 isn’t BW and the more cute ways of dealing with tank lines stop being viable past a certain supply. Likewise SC2 units are very ‘slippery’ so tactically blocking stuff off is less of an option too.
I agree that SC2 is quite lacking in very niche/borderline useless abilities.
EPT
