EPTThat makes me happy
[D]Nestea's Anti-Immortal/Sentry all-in build - Page 8
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Moosegills
United States558 Posts
That makes me happy | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
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Mavvie
Canada923 Posts
By taking a gas at 4:30, I can get my spire done at 9:45 consistently, and if I was more proactive on gas timing followups, I could get 12+ mutas to pop at 10:15, which gives me time to fly to their base. However....do you really need to basetrade? If you engage before his first or second stalker warp-in, 12-15 mutas could be enough to flat out kill the push, or at least snipe most of the sentries. Then it's ~40 lings against a few immortals and stalkers...EZPZ. Why basetrade when you can have close to 15 mutas by the time they attack? Snipe the sentries, clean up with lings...seems like a better answer than basetrading! I'd rather be in a 4base vs. 2base than 2base vs 1base... Please tell me why you guys basetrade instead of engage/snipe sentries  Edit: After playing around and getting massively supply blocked at 70 @ 7:50, I found money for a macro hatch @ 8:30 which got me a lot more lings ~11:00. I must say I really like a 6:45 lair hahaha. Also, if they're late by only 30 seconds, I'll get ~5-6 more mutas, and 20-30 more lings, which is just fucking awesome I might add. I don't understand how this all-in is so powerful, even against this style forcing a basetrade. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Yea, you need to base trade if you go mutas. That's the whole point of mutas, it's to base trade if the opponent ever pushes out. But it can actually get to a point where you could use your mutas, once you have 20+, to simply straight up fight the Toss army, as long as you kept most of your lings (which you should have). I've done this before, but honestly, base trading is much more easier and much more reliable. You could attack him with the first 12-15 mutas, but the problem is that he'll barely survive, and you'll barely survive, the battle, and so he still has the same imortal/sentry army that was a problem at 9:30, and you only have ~10 mutas, which won't be enough to really solidly base trade with. It's better to engage, if at all, once you have 20+ mutas, and just go base trade instead of fight him. At least kill his economy first before deciding to engage, that way he can't remake his army, but why fly alllll the way back home to fight him when you can just finish up his bases and win the game? So yea, you can't really engage his army cost effectively until you have 20+ mutas, so you might as well use your initial mutas to tear down his econ instead of just sitting at home doing nothing, and then if you do engage, it won't be particular cost effective, and you probably won't kill off his army, if you do it won't be cost efficient as he reinforces, and at best he'll lose his army but make cannons at home and he'll still be in the game. And it'll be you on 2 base, vs him on 2 base, and you can expand to your third, but by the time your third is up, he can maybe make enough blink stalkers to take his third, and he won't be too far behind. So just base trade. It's a sure thing, whereas engaging is not. | ||
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Mavvie
Canada923 Posts
Here's a replay vs AI I actually got a gas at 4:20, 24 supply. I had no larvae (upon further analysis I had 1, which I spent a few seconds later), I had enough money, so I threw it down. 6:40 lair, 8:00 spire, if I didn't get MASSIVELY supply blocked at 70 at 8:00, I would've hit 76+ supply. I play a little greedy (it's vs AI come on, it's not like they're gonna attack me anytime soon), but if I managed larvae/overlords/3rd base gas timings better, I could've had 15 mutas at 10:15, and a bunch of splings. That's a lot of mutas. When a 7gate sentry/immortal push hits, doesn't it have ~6 sentries, 3 immortals, and +7 stalkers per warp in? I feel like I could run in with the lings as a meatshield, snipe the sentries, then his army dies and he loses the game. My hatch won't be dead until closer to 11:00, which gives me time for another round of 4 mutas and some splings. I'm sure there's a reason the god Nestea basetraded instead of engaging, but I don't see it. Yeah, it's nice to kill his bases, but following Day[9]'s advice, try to win at hive. Instead of thinking "How can I kill him now?", think "How can I win at hive?". It's better to keep your stuff alive than to kill his! ^This is just my mentality on playing to improve, if you want to win I'm sure that a basetrade is GUARANTEED to win the game, but the game will be over by 12:00, which is kind of lame IMO. I think ideal gas timings are: 1x gas @4:20-4:30 3x gas @7:20-7:30 2x gas @8:00 or something. Please watch the replay and provide any advice! ^^ I think this build should be the new go-to build, because as you have said in this thread, with minor adaptations you can win against any build. Thanks Belial! :D | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
But the opponent is doing an all-in. If he's doing an all-in, then you win the game straight up if he doesn't kill you. So you need to aim to win the game at a certain point, ie by defending somehow. Immortal/sentry is just such a strong ground army that you can't fight it straight up, and even if you go mutas, Toss can still actually win a straight up fight with lings and 15+ mutas. That's why you base trade, 15 mutas isn't going to stop immortal/sentry with reinforcing stalkers. I get what you are saying, and if you want, you could just mass lings, let Toss kill your third, and then once you have 20+ mutas and a ton of lings, when he tries to bust up your ramp with 5-10 spines, engage there with your army, then go on to his base, but you aren't going to be ahead as if you base trade, because you'll lose most of your mutas, he'll lose his army, but he'll make reinforcing stalkers at home, and cannons, and you won't really be as ahead as if you simply base trade and restart the game. I've actually had 2 games where I did win the game with hive tech though - we base trade, he saved enough money and made enough stalkers that I couldn't engage him with 25+ mutas, made cannons and got blink and archons and storm off 1 base, but because he never really lost any of his initial units, he actually had a decent army. I rebuilt 3 bases all the way from scratch, mining out his bases actually, and won the game with broodlords. Lings won't 'snipe' his sentries, he'll have enough to stop lings from taking over his army. You need spines also, or else toss just goes to your main and then he'll win the game. I don't use Nestea's build, what I do is a standard 3 hatch with 3xgas at 6:30, but if I see Toss is going robotech, I'll just not make a roach warren or roach upgrades (depends if i started roach warren or not, sometimes toss might do 4 gate +1 pressure which you kind of need roaches against, but in that case you see toss going gasless and he gets the robo later), and get 6xgas by 8:00, mass lings from 8:30+, and then some spines in natural to make toss go to my third instead of main. He'll kill my third, but I'll have 20 mutas in his base at 11:20, when he's walking up my natural, and I'll have about 60+ lings help tear it down. I prefer spire to roach/ling against immortal/sentry because roach/ling just sucks if toss goes robo expand. | ||
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Mavvie
Canada923 Posts
 Ok I understand and agree. I guess I was just underestimating Toss, I figured that it would be 40 lings and 15 mutas against 7 stalkers and 6 sentries, which would be an extremely one-sided fight. Make that number 14 stalkers and not so much. Good to know, Protoss has the ability to build an unbeatable ground army by 9:30 in the game O.o Why would you do that standard opening? Getting gas hurts your supply by probably 4 @ 8:00, and it gets you a faster lair while keeping you safe from all-ins. Also, every toss goes robo in my experience, so why not do get a faster spire? Also, 6:30 roach warren + speedlings make gateway all-ins pretty easy to hold, speedlings just eat stalkers for breakfast. In other words, do you like 3x gas at 6:30 into spire better than 4:30 gas into fast speed/lair, or do you open with 3x gas because you normally don't go spire (ie. you scout something that isn't robo or stargate...mass archon? lol) I just fail to see the advantage of taking such late gas if you're going mutas against almost all Protoss players anyway. Also, if you don't get all-inned, 20+ mutas by 11:00 is gonna take every Protoss by surprise haha. I can't wait to get home and ladder more! | ||
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Denzil
United Kingdom4193 Posts
Has any Protoss taken notice of it and made adjustments to their all in or have they ignored it? | ||
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ImNightmare
1575 Posts
On August 05 2012 19:25 Denzil wrote: Would you consider this build still viable? Has any Protoss taken notice of it and made adjustments to their all in or have they ignored it? Yup they have, moment mutas come out, bam, they all in anyway. Sentries are actually really good at handling mutas. Had to learn the hard way.. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
On August 05 2012 19:25 Denzil wrote: Would you consider this build still viable? Has any Protoss taken notice of it and made adjustments to their all in or have they ignored it? yes. it's my standard response when toss goes robo. If he is all-inning (pushes out around 9:30, no third taken obviously, lots of gateways in main if I care to sac an overlord, usually dont), I mass spines when toss pushes out and be ready to abandon my third. If he is taking his third (hasn't moved out by 9:30, clearly posturing towards his third), then I'll make a macro hatch instead of mass spines, take my fourth. In both cases I mass lings from 8:30 (even robo expands can do some +1 zealot pressure will which end you if you dont have either a shitton of lings or roaches, and since I dont make a roach warren if I see a robo early enough, I need a shitton of lings), and get 6xgas by 8:00 and get spire asap. Due to NRGmonk's comment earlier in this thread, I stopped doing this build for a short while, but after seeing some stuff about 'just base trade against immortal/sentry' in regards to base racing against immortal/sentry but with the standard roach/ling, and the use of spines in the natural to make sure toss can't go straight into your main, I came back to it and realized that this does work still, and that while NrgMonk's comment is a valid concern, about toss busting up into your main and winning, the point of massing spines in your nat is to make sure that if toss tries to bust into your main before he has 2-3 more warp-ins with his immortal/sentry core, he'll lose everything to your popping mutas, lings and 15+ hatch mutas, so, it's still viable. Toss should be about done killing your third hatch when your mutas pop if you play standard, with nestea's quick single gas you will have mutas about 30 seconds earlier, but you can still fight immortal/sentry is 11:00 mutas, as long as you made spines in the nat, which you do even with a quick lair,spire anyways. That, and I really think it's just the logical answer - if Toss goes immortal/sentry, you aren't going to beat it with roaches, and you should logically make the counter, mutas. Plus, if toss ends up going robo expand, you are just fucked if you massed roach/ling because immortal/sentry fast third just owns mass roach/ling (it's not easy, but i think most toss have it figured out now) and you are just really behind for investing that much into roach tech. I guess nowadays you just get roach tech and only make lings and make roaches if toss pushes out, as you want to be ling heavy to hold the all-in if you plan to take it head on with roach/ling, but I am still rather uncomfortable as much as even getting roach speed and +1 missile if Toss is actually playing quick third. | ||
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Sangan
Denmark4 Posts
On May 21 2012 21:09 BronzeKnee wrote: Let's say you normally do a quick 8 gate timing. Instead of getting 8 gates, get 7, then you can afford the extra Assimilators. Then take Probes off mining gas in the main, and put them on gas on the in natural (generally Zergs are scouting the gasses in the natural) and Vola! That should hit more than hard enough to take out this kind of build. well then you make an all in not as strong and lose gas because you have to transfer the probes BUT you can hit that muta greedy build to a death blow... HOWEVER! you have no observers, Zerg have lings out on the field (and even with speed with this build) so there is no way you are going to scout the spire or even the build in general other than knowing that it's on 3 bases without a observer or show the zerg that you have acess to loads of gateway units. If the zerg see more gateway units he knows that you do not go stargate or robo and he will in a instant throw down his roach warren. So you can blind mind game 1 specific build that isn't even the standard meta build. It's not that I will just shot down your idea but I think you will need to add a longer thought process with some ingame practice to come up with a better solution | ||
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